Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Forbes)   Bitcoin is an awesome way to "shield your assets" from governments, says big VC. That's different from dodging taxes because cough cough whoops look at the time gotta run   (forbes.com ) divider line
    More: Amusing, bitcoins, red pills, real-times  
•       •       •

1462 clicks; posted to Business » on 29 Apr 2013 at 2:37 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



50 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-04-29 02:08:54 PM  
And the dudes behind Bitcoin are not bribing the guy as a mouthpiece to say those things. Not at all.
 
2013-04-29 02:24:56 PM  
I was having a discussion with a guy the other day about how bitcoin isn't a currency, it's a giant scam waiting to blow up.  And it is going to be soooooo ugly when it does.

But he didn't want to hear it.  He was just against the idea of a government backed currency.

Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that).  There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.
 
2013-04-29 02:32:28 PM  
It's the currency of choice for online drug deals.
 
2013-04-29 02:33:05 PM  
Isn't this kind of how Stephenson said the governments of the world will collapse?
 
2013-04-29 02:39:48 PM  
Sure, if you don't mind storing your assets in something that is highly volatile.
 
2013-04-29 02:41:11 PM  
isn't that explicitly the point of bitcoin though?

An untaxable, untraceable transaction and currency medium?
 
2013-04-29 02:43:03 PM  

Ambivalence: Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that). There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.


The government is the reason why the dollar is worth less and less every year.
 
2013-04-29 02:48:35 PM  
Bitcon, the Dotcoms of Q1 and 2 of 2013.
 
2013-04-29 02:50:59 PM  

MugzyBrown: Ambivalence: Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that). There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.

The government is the reason why the dollar is worth less and less every year.


If they're doing it right
 
2013-04-29 02:52:20 PM  

gopher321: And the dudes behind Bitcoin are not bribing the guy as a mouthpiece to say those things. Not at all.


He owns bitcoins. It's in his interest to shill for it. Ain't no conspiracy.
 
2013-04-29 02:58:33 PM  
pandodaily.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-29 02:59:07 PM  
Wired: "A study of the Bitcoin exchange industry has found that 45 percent of exchanges fail, taking their users' money with them. Those that survive are the ones that handle the most traffic -- but they are also the exchanges that suffer the greatest number of cyber attacks. "

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-04/26/large-bitcoin-exchang es -attacks
 
2013-04-29 03:00:50 PM  
I like Bitcoin. It's fun and interesting and I like the idea of a non government currency. Currently, bitcoin is not what I would consider a true currency, it's more like a tool to move currency. You buy some BTC with USD, use that to purchase your drugs online, at which point the seller pretty much immediately changes it back to USD or whatever currency they are using. There are a few problems with bitcoin (it's deflationary (some argue that's a positive. I do not.)) and a few things that are a mix of a pro and a con (it's irreversible so you can't do or get chargebacks like with most credit and back transactions). It's definitely interesting and I'm curious to see how other non government currencies (there's actually a lot of them now) appear and what changes or improvements they make to Bitcoin's model.
 
2013-04-29 03:13:03 PM  
www.conservativedailynews.com

Angry that his latest tax dodge has been revealed.
 
2013-04-29 03:14:29 PM  
How does that work with sales and income tax anyhow?  I've most often heard bitcoin compared to a barter system.  Can the government tax barter transactions?
It seems like they should, but how do they do the math?  Just consider the estimated dollar value of the stuff you're trading, then tax you on that?
 
2013-04-29 03:15:05 PM  

MugzyBrown: Ambivalence: Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that). There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.

The government is the reason why the dollar is worth less and less every year.


The government is the reason inflation is manageable and you don't wake up one morning realizing bread is now a thousand dollars a loaf.
 
2013-04-29 03:22:21 PM  
The price jumps around like crazy.
 
2013-04-29 03:31:05 PM  

Ambivalence: MugzyBrown: Ambivalence: Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that). There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.

The government is the reason why the dollar is worth less and less every year.

The government is the reason inflation is manageable and you don't wake up one morning realizing bread is now a thousand dollars a loaf.


Because government and big banks working together always have the honest cost of bread at heart.
 
2013-04-29 03:33:40 PM  

BalugaJoe: The price jumps around like crazy.


That's what speculators love about it.
 
2013-04-29 03:35:47 PM  

KarmicDisaster: Sure, if you don't mind storing your assets in something that is highly volatile.


By the author's measure, "buying old stamps or Wacky Packs cards is an awesome way to shield your assets from governments," too, in that you don't have to report to the government when you buy or sell stamps or cards. But it's a shiatty way to try to preserve the value of your assets, since the thing you're converting your assets into has no intrisic value and is traded on an unstable market fraught with manipulation.
 
2013-04-29 03:37:18 PM  
The Canada Revenue Agency is aware of bitcoins and considers them to be taxable, whether used in a barter transaction or traded as a commodity.
 
2013-04-29 03:41:42 PM  

gopher321: And the dudes behind Bitcoin are not bribing the guy as a mouthpiece to say those things. Not at all.


Know how I know you don't know anything about Bitcoins?

/ hint - there are no 'dudes' behind Bitcoin, no centralized control, etc.
 
2013-04-29 03:46:40 PM  
Did you know that fiat money is intentionally inflated by central banks?!  I post this shocking revelation in every thread related to currency.
 
2013-04-29 03:50:07 PM  

scarmig: Ambivalence: MugzyBrown: Ambivalence: Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that). There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.

The government is the reason why the dollar is worth less and less every year.

The government is the reason inflation is manageable and you don't wake up one morning realizing bread is now a thousand dollars a loaf.

Because government and big banks working together always have the honest cost of bread at heart.


Well not so much that as they have a vested interest in making sure bank accounts aren't worth a tenth of what they were last year.  No Fortune 400 guy wants that either.
 
2013-04-29 03:52:11 PM  
A currency that jumps from $15 to $230 then back down to $150 isn't really all that good of an idea. Yeah, we all want our money to go further but with such wild fluctuations all that's going to do is encourage hoarding. The guy who, several years ago, paid something like 10k in bitcoins for a pizza because it was only worth a few cents has got to be kicking himself now.
 
2013-04-29 03:56:48 PM  
Once the asics miners are out (if they are not vaporware and stealing thousands of pre-orders that can't be cancelled) from Butterfly labs GPU mining is going to be a thing of the past kind of like CPU mining since the difficulty will skyrocket.  Right now a decent GPU card gets about 250MHs for about $150 video card.  The Butterfly labs says it will do 5GHs for $280, which would take 20 video cards to do the same amount of work with a ton less power.  There are like 10,000 pre-orders between that one and the one that gets 1,500GHs.

Once the difficulity rises, people will ditch their coins and stop mining since it wouldn't be worth having to re-purchase all of your equipment and start fresh.  Since it won't be till the end of the year that you can get one of those things.

I'm still thinking they are vaporware only because of their price points.
 
2013-04-29 04:14:44 PM  

Shostie: Isn't this kind of how Stephenson said the governments of the world will collapse?


Yeah and he also said a river of molten gold would someday explode out of Central America and save us all.
 
2013-04-29 04:34:00 PM  

MugzyBrown: Ambivalence: Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that). There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.

The government is the reason why the dollar is worth less and less every year.


Oooh! OOoh! Gather roumd, Farkers! A person with an intellectual age of about twelve is going to give us a lecture on 18th century economics!

Seriously - I like Bitcoins, because it's a handy tool with which a lot of selfish, stingy, antisocial assholes, chomos, and dope dealers will give themselves the f**king they so richly deserve.
 
2013-04-29 04:35:26 PM  

jayhawk88: Shostie: Isn't this kind of how Stephenson said the governments of the world will collapse?

Yeah and he also said a river of molten gold would someday explode out of Central America and save us all.


China, actually.
 
2013-04-29 04:36:52 PM  

Shostie: jayhawk88: Shostie: Isn't this kind of how Stephenson said the governments of the world will collapse?

Yeah and he also said a river of molten gold would someday explode out of Central America and save us all.

China, actually.


Or was it the Philippines...

I should reread Cryptonomicon...
 
2013-04-29 04:44:45 PM  

Ivo Shandor: The Canada Revenue Agency is aware of bitcoins and considers them to be taxable, whether used in a barter transaction or traded as a commodity.


When your economy is already based on trading beaver pelts and cases of Molson, Bitcoins aren't really a big change, when you think about it.
 
2013-04-29 05:38:24 PM  

Aarontology: isn't that explicitly the point of bitcoin though?

An untaxable, untraceable transaction and currency medium?


Too bad its volatility make it useless for reliable transactions and all around a poor choice for a currency, unless you're against government-back currency for entirely impractical, pathological, and/or generally ideological reasons.
 
2013-04-29 05:42:30 PM  

scarmig: Ambivalence: MugzyBrown: Ambivalence: Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that). There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.

The government is the reason why the dollar is worth less and less every year.

The government is the reason inflation is manageable and you don't wake up one morning realizing bread is now a thousand dollars a loaf.

Because government and big banks working together always have the honest cost of bread at heart.


Since when does the cost of anything have anything to do with its price? Perhaps politicians actually represent their constituents now?
 
2013-04-29 05:45:54 PM  

TNel: Once the asics miners are out (if they are not vaporware and stealing thousands of pre-orders that can't be cancelled) from Butterfly labs GPU mining is going to be a thing of the past kind of like CPU mining since the difficulty will skyrocket.  Right now a decent GPU card gets about 250MHs for about $150 video card.  The Butterfly labs says it will do 5GHs for $280, which would take 20 video cards to do the same amount of work with a ton less power.  There are like 10,000 pre-orders between that one and the one that gets 1,500GHs.

Once the difficulity rises, people will ditch their coins and stop mining since it wouldn't be worth having to re-purchase all of your equipment and start fresh.  Since it won't be till the end of the year that you can get one of those things.

I'm still thinking they are vaporware only because of their price points.


Conceptually (at least in their marketing) the asic rigs are a scam too (or at least the bitmining concept is); if you need to be an early adopter not to be dicked over by a currency, it's useless as a currency but awesome as a basis for a Ponzi scheme.
 
2013-04-29 06:31:39 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: TNel: Once the asics miners are out (if they are not vaporware and stealing thousands of pre-orders that can't be cancelled) from Butterfly labs GPU mining is going to be a thing of the past kind of like CPU mining since the difficulty will skyrocket.  Right now a decent GPU card gets about 250MHs for about $150 video card.  The Butterfly labs says it will do 5GHs for $280, which would take 20 video cards to do the same amount of work with a ton less power.  There are like 10,000 pre-orders between that one and the one that gets 1,500GHs.

Once the difficulity rises, people will ditch their coins and stop mining since it wouldn't be worth having to re-purchase all of your equipment and start fresh.  Since it won't be till the end of the year that you can get one of those things.

I'm still thinking they are vaporware only because of their price points.

Conceptually (at least in their marketing) the asic rigs are a scam too (or at least the bitmining concept is); if you need to be an early adopter not to be dicked over by a currency, it's useless as a currency but awesome as a basis for a Ponzi scheme.


Jesus - the BTC ponzi scheme argument again? From the wiki:

In a Ponzi Scheme, the founders persuade investors that they'll profit. Bitcoin does not make such a guarantee. There is no central entity, just individuals building an economy.

A ponzi scheme is a zero sum game. In a ponzi scheme, early adopters can only profit at the expense of late adopters, and the late adopters always lose. Bitcoin has an expected win-win outcome. Early and present adopters profit from the rise in value as Bitcoins become better understood and in turn demanded by the public at large. All adopters benefit from the usefulness of a reliable and widely-accepted decentralized peer-to-peer currency.


Now I would possibly say BFL might be closer to a scheme of sorts in that they promise to fill ASIC mining hardware; fill a few orders and then fail to deliver on the remaining future orders.
 
2013-04-29 06:38:54 PM  

MugzyBrown: Ambivalence: Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that). There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.

The government is the reason why the dollar is worth less and less every year.


Which of those four things you said can the dollar not do?
 
2013-04-29 06:44:05 PM  

jso2897: MugzyBrown: Ambivalence: Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that). There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.

The government is the reason why the dollar is worth less and less every year.

Oooh! OOoh! Gather roumd, Farkers! A person with an intellectual age of about twelve is going to give us a lecture on 18th century economics!

Seriously - I like Bitcoins, because it's a handy tool with which a lot of selfish, stingy, antisocial assholes, chomos, and dope dealers will give themselves the f**king they so richly deserve.


He'll be fine though; his backup career is cartographer.

/the blue is land.
 
2013-04-29 06:46:34 PM  

Elzar: Crotchrocket Slim: TNel: Once the asics miners are out (if they are not vaporware and stealing thousands of pre-orders that can't be cancelled) from Butterfly labs GPU mining is going to be a thing of the past kind of like CPU mining since the difficulty will skyrocket.  Right now a decent GPU card gets about 250MHs for about $150 video card.  The Butterfly labs says it will do 5GHs for $280, which would take 20 video cards to do the same amount of work with a ton less power.  There are like 10,000 pre-orders between that one and the one that gets 1,500GHs.

Once the difficulity rises, people will ditch their coins and stop mining since it wouldn't be worth having to re-purchase all of your equipment and start fresh.  Since it won't be till the end of the year that you can get one of those things.

I'm still thinking they are vaporware only because of their price points.

Conceptually (at least in their marketing) the asic rigs are a scam too (or at least the bitmining concept is); if you need to be an early adopter not to be dicked over by a currency, it's useless as a currency but awesome as a basis for a Ponzi scheme.

Jesus - the BTC ponzi scheme argument again? From the wiki:

In a Ponzi Scheme, the founders persuade investors that they'll profit. Bitcoin does not make such a guarantee. There is no central entity, just individuals building an economy.

A ponzi scheme is a zero sum game. In a ponzi scheme, early adopters can only profit at the expense of late adopters, and the late adopters always lose. Bitcoin has an expected win-win outcome. Early and present adopters profit from the rise in value as Bitcoins become better understood and in turn demanded by the public at large. All adopters benefit from the usefulness of a reliable and widely-accepted decentralized peer-to-peer currency.

Now I would possibly say BFL might be closer to a scheme of sorts in that they promise to fill ASIC mining hardware; fill a few orders and then fail to deliver on the remaining future orders.


It isn't a ponzi, but lol at the 'everybody wins' line.
 
2013-04-29 07:43:40 PM  
scarmig:
Because government and big banks working together always have the honest cost of bread at heart.

Governments and corporations do not have hearts, they have interests.  That being said banks have an especially big interest in a stable currency as high inflation devalues debt.

And as much as people hate big corporations, they have no business being involved in currency.  Companies paying people in tokens (by whatever name they're called) just takes us right back to "government store" territory and we all lose.
 
2013-04-29 08:49:27 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-04-29 10:31:15 PM  
Ambivalence:

Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that).  There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.

It's cute how no-nothings think that returning to a period of barter economics will allow them to be wealthy and retain value.

/If you think how much "means of exchange" you stockpile is how wealthy you are, you're a moron.  Wealth is your assets and the value of your labor and service, period.  Spend more time not being an idiot (gambling, and hoarding currency) and increase your assets!
 
2013-04-29 10:49:08 PM  

serial_crusher: How does that work with sales and income tax anyhow?  I've most often heard bitcoin compared to a barter system.  Can the government tax barter transactions?
It seems like they should, but how do they do the math?  Just consider the estimated dollar value of the stuff you're trading, then tax you on that?


in essence, yes.  I remember finding the tax code that addresses this a few elections back when the "trading chickens for healthcare" comment was made (forgot who, sounds like a palin statement).

IIRC, you should pay taxes on the estimated value of the services.  Example:  A painter paints the house of a doctor, and in turn the doctor trade five office visits to the painter.  Come tax time the doctor should treat the painting service as income (a gift type situation) and pay taxes on the how much it would have cost to pay someone to paint the house.  Same for the painter, he should pay taxes on the value of the office visits.

Nothing escapes the tax man or his laws (except large wealth)
 
2013-04-30 01:27:47 AM  
Yes, good way to shield your money, in a currency that fluctuates badly when the servers go down.

Don't be stupid.
 
2013-04-30 06:49:50 AM  

Ambivalence: I was having a discussion with a guy the other day about how bitcoin isn't a currency, it's a giant scam waiting to blow up.  And it is going to be soooooo ugly when it does.

But he didn't want to hear it.  He was just against the idea of a government backed currency.

Dude, the government is what makes sure that dollar is actually worth a dollar (full faith and credit and all that).  There is nothing making sure a bitcoin is worth jack shiat.


Kinda like gold.

Huh.
 
2013-04-30 07:54:13 AM  

Ambivalence: scarmig:
Because government and big banks working together always have the honest cost of bread at heart.

Governments and corporations do not have hearts, they have interests.  That being said banks have an especially big interest in a stable currency as high inflation devalues debt.

And as much as people hate big corporations, they have no business being involved in currency.  Companies paying people in tokens (by whatever name they're called) just takes us right back to "government store" territory and we all lose.


"Company store" you mean, surely.

/It's a retail store selling a limited range of food, clothing and daily necessities to employees of a company, but that's not important right now
 
2013-04-30 07:55:43 AM  

serial_crusher: Can the government tax barter transactions?


Seeing as how I can trade a couch for an ipad on craigslist without the government i'd say yeah.

TyrantII: Wealth is your assets and the value of your labor and service, period.


and currency, or means of exchange provides durability to your assets or your labor.  This is why we have it.  It pre-dates all government and would exist in the absence of it.  Its nice having government there to protect or define what a dollar is but dont kid yourself for a moment that people wouldn't figure out in minutes how to effectively trade if it went away.

sendtodave: Kinda like gold.


Gold has value in industrial applications and has been a store of value for every world culture for the last 5000 years.  Not only that, the supply of gold is scarce, is expensive to mine and produce and its supply and value has historically increased with the rate of human population growth.  The fact that it is scarce, and easily transported makes it a natural candidate for being currency.  Few other things have the same characteristics.

I'm just waiting for the day that some Junior CSE student at Stanford makes himself a bitcoin billionaire overnight by writing a program.
 
2013-04-30 09:50:29 AM  

o5iiawah: and value has historically increased with the rate of human population growth.


No it hasn't. It has only increased since the 1970s.
 
2013-04-30 11:07:07 AM  

Elzar: Crotchrocket Slim: TNel: Once the asics miners are out (if they are not vaporware and stealing thousands of pre-orders that can't be cancelled) from Butterfly labs GPU mining is going to be a thing of the past kind of like CPU mining since the difficulty will skyrocket.  Right now a decent GPU card gets about 250MHs for about $150 video card.  The Butterfly labs says it will do 5GHs for $280, which would take 20 video cards to do the same amount of work with a ton less power.  There are like 10,000 pre-orders between that one and the one that gets 1,500GHs.

Once the difficulity rises, people will ditch their coins and stop mining since it wouldn't be worth having to re-purchase all of your equipment and start fresh.  Since it won't be till the end of the year that you can get one of those things.

I'm still thinking they are vaporware only because of their price points.

Conceptually (at least in their marketing) the asic rigs are a scam too (or at least the bitmining concept is); if you need to be an early adopter not to be dicked over by a currency, it's useless as a currency but awesome as a basis for a Ponzi scheme.

Jesus - the BTC ponzi scheme argument again? From the wiki:

In a Ponzi Scheme, the founders persuade investors that they'll profit. Bitcoin does not make such a guarantee. There is no central entity, just individuals building an economy.

A ponzi scheme is a zero sum game. In a ponzi scheme, early adopters can only profit at the expense of late adopters, and the late adopters always lose. Bitcoin has an expected win-win outcome. Early and present adopters profit from the rise in value as Bitcoins become better understood and in turn demanded by the public at large. All adopters benefit from the usefulness of a reliable and widely-accepted decentralized peer-to-peer currency.

Now I would possibly say BFL might be closer to a scheme of sorts in that they promise to fill ASIC mining hardware; fill a few orders and then fail to deliver on the remaini ...


Piratat40. He ran a classic ponzi scheme that promised something like a weekly 2% return on individual accounts. He possibly made off with millions in US Dollars. And, even better, many different ponzi schemes actually were just pass throughs for Piratat40's "hedge fund".

Before the currently bubble, the best way to make money in bitcoin was to run a "bank" or a ponzi scheme.

Oh, and BFL is simply the best thing ever. Unprofessional turds who are more than six months overdue for product. If you complain they took your money, they will berate you on public forums. BFL_Josh (aka Inuaba) is perhaps the biggest toddler ever. Guy is a trainwreck of how not to do PR for your shiatty ASIC rigs. Which consume too much power and put out too few hashes.

Bitcoin!
 
2013-04-30 12:23:38 PM  

o5iiawah: Its nice having government there to protect or define what a dollar is but dont kid yourself for a moment that people wouldn't figure out in minutes how to effectively trade if it went away.


Effectively?  Sure.  Efficiently?  Nope.

Being able to value something becomes terribly hard as does liquidity.  Hell, it's part of the rationality of a fiat currency.
 
2013-04-30 06:26:28 PM  

TyrantII: Being able to value something becomes terribly hard as does liquidity.  Hell, it's part of the rationality of a fiat currency.


The average lifespan of a fiat currency is around 30 years.  I'm not sure "Rationality" and 'Fiat currency" belong in the same sentence.  value is defined by the marketplace since currency by definition is simply a representation of a unit of good or service which the market deems of value.  The aggregate decision making of billions of players in a marketplace is going to define value better than any government or currency board ever could.
 
Displayed 50 of 50 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report