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(Time)   Businesses are learning that by downsizing the workforce they are, in effect, destroying their bottom line   (business.time.com) divider line 57
    More: Ironic, layoffs, MIT Sloan, Red Lobster, Domino's Pizza, morale, businesses  
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5981 clicks; posted to Business » on 28 Apr 2013 at 8:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-04-28 09:00:55 PM  
6 votes:
Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.
2013-04-28 07:54:33 PM  
5 votes:
That's what happens when you allow the professional investor class to run things.
2013-04-28 08:48:10 PM  
4 votes:

DKinMN: HMS_Blinkin: Aar1012: You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it

The frustrating thing is that this pattern of behavior, where long-term growth and stability are sacrificed for next quarter's profit, has been a freaking cancer  on American business for at least the last 30-40 years.

For a cancer patient, the American economy looks remarkably healthy.


It's like pancreatic cancer. You look and feel fine. Until you don't. And then you die.
2013-04-28 08:24:40 PM  
4 votes:
I remember when Circuit City fired all their top sales staff and replaced them with school leavers on far lower pay. I also remember what then happened to Circuit City....
2013-04-28 08:04:05 PM  
4 votes:

Fark Me To Tears: One Fortune 50 company I worked for was in the process of a major off-shoring and downsizing effort. They released a quarterly financial report and in the accompanying explanation they cited "uncertainty in the employment sector" as one of the major factors for their decline in revenues. Forest? Trees? Hello?


And speaking of off-shoring... Employers, when you send your jobs off-shore and lay off your domestic employees, just where do you think your wage dollars are going to be spent?

Even if you pull the completely illegal* stunt of replacing American workers with H-1Bs, most of the money that you're playing them is still going out of the country, usually back home. Unless your company also make sales in that other country, you're basically letting air out of the balloon. It amazes me that all these overpaid MBAs don't see that.

* - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.
2013-04-28 11:20:05 PM  
3 votes:

gingerjet: They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude


The Americans with advanced degrees don't want you for a boss, and the H1B's have no choice but to kiss your ass.

The U.S. has a surplus of skilled workers, so anything you say beyond "I don't want to pay for them." is a lie.
2013-04-28 09:27:26 PM  
3 votes:
You really believe its about the bottom line?

its about control.

Always has been.

/ If you dont belong to a Union, you deserve what you get.
2013-04-28 07:34:18 PM  
3 votes:
You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it
2013-04-29 11:43:12 AM  
2 votes:
I remember seeing a rather prophetic cartoon, way back in the sixties. A businessman is standing on a podium, overlooking a factory floor occupied entirely by robotic machines. Behind him, on the wall, is a "Sales" chart with the line going down at a sharp angle. There is a thought balloon over his head, and he is thinking: "Hmm. I wonder - if I paid these things a salary, would they buy any of the stuff we make?"
2013-04-29 11:24:03 AM  
2 votes:

Girion47: cman: dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.


If the issue is lack of applications, let alone hired, then it sounds like the company itself is at fault. Every time this comes up here on Fark, and it does often, they never seem to link to a job listing despite it being free publicity to get some applicants. For all we know they're looking for somebody with 10 years experience for an entry level position/salary in the middle of nowhere with the only way you would know about the opening is if you were related to somebody in HR.
2013-04-29 09:36:28 AM  
2 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


People talk. No one but those with no choice applies for jobs at your company because word has gotten around that you run a slave labor shop. You and gingerjet better remember who is usually first up against the wall when the people get fed up with abusers who blame the victims. Enjoy being forever clueless as to why your competitors are able to find  good people while you can only find people who will work for you because otherwise they'll be deported.
2013-04-29 03:09:44 AM  
2 votes:
At some point, however, increasing the workload on employees backfires. The burden becomes too much for workers to bear, and when employees are overwhelmed and can't keep up with their duties, it's just plain bad for business.

VINDICATED!

Damn! I've been pointing that out for over 20 years and been ignored. Gosh knows how many FARKers have said the same thing, and been ignored.

The last company I worked for pushed it's employees so hard that, in Florida alone, in a 10 year period, they went through 25 sub contractors, over 2000 employees and three years after I left, they went belly up. DHL took over, and lost it, when they hired subcontractors who required the individual drivers to buy and own their own trucks -- per corporate specification and pay their own insurance and buy their own gas.

I like to shop at Winn Dixie, but changes have hit the store hard. To begin with, Winn Dixie doesn't allow store managers to order for their stores depending o0n the customers they serve. The Home Office does the ordering based on computer logged inventory. So, if you can't find, say, Campbell's Pea soup and you and others have requested it, blame it on the home office. Their policy basically ignores the store managers awareness of his customers needs.

So you go down the street to Publix, buy your Pea Soup and discover that they periodically have some outstanding deals on bulk beef -- better and cheaper than beef at Winn Dixie. So, you start splitting your purchases. (Winn Dixie offers a membership card service with good discounts and a great gas incentive. Publix doesn't.)

When I worked at a hospital, things were great, until they changed management. The first thing the new management did was try and segregate the professionals and non-professionals. (Pretty much a med tech like me was not supposed to have lunch or take a break with an RN.) Then they fired a bunch of staff, never replaced them and dumped their workload on those remaining. They didn't even bother to increase pay to cover the additional work. They developed a complicated way of paying overtime, meaning if you worked it, you very likely would only get straight pay.

The excellent care in the hospital started nose diving. At one time they decided that 4 year RNs were better than 2 year, so they could be charge nurses on the floors. RN with a 2 year degree would be regulated to doing much more floor work, along side the LPNs and medical aids. Then they decided the LPNs were barely nurses at all, cut their pay and regulated them mainly to nursing assistant work. They fired skilled nursing assistants and cut the staff down along with the pay, since they had nurses doing the assistants work anyhow.

Bad idea.

Nurses went on strike. Many quit. LPNs turned out to be vital after all, especially when they started going elsewhere to work and the service at the hospital became so bad that it slid from the number one spot on the coast, to one of the least desired to go to. Mistakes and corresponding lawsuits soared.

Nearly 30 years later and the hospital is still trying to recover, though they still over work their staff.

I've been through a lot of businesses and seen what happens when you treat good employees like shiat. For one thing, the incidents of employee theft just soars. Plus, employees are less likely to watch out for the usual thieves or to take action when they spot one.

We have an airplane company here making small, personal craft. When they started cracking down, employees damaged expensive machinery, one started using company materials to start and supply his home made belt buckle business (they were darn good) and theft soared.

One customer showed up to take possession of his new, expensive aircraft and when it wouldn't start, the mechanics opened up the engine. They found a pack of cigarettes in a piston cylinder.

One guy stole enough parts to nearly build his own aircraft -- but tossed them in the main canal by the factory. He just wanted to make a point -- with close to $100,000 in high end electronics and precision parts.

It always takes decades for bad ideas in business to be corrected.

Like paying CEOs enormous salaries while laying off 1/4 of the work force.

BTW. The Yuppies encouraged this attitude by mainly investing in companies with high profits -- which forced other companies to concentrate on bigger profits, which led to outsourcing, early retirement and layoffs. Don't forget the era of hostile takeovers, mainly designed to close a company, sell off it's stock and supplies, sell off the land and buildings and make a profit.

As one corporate executive said to me 'It's not personal. It's just business.'
2013-04-29 02:43:46 AM  
2 votes:
Well all I can say is go to www.glassdoor.com . I use this before I invest in company or work as a consultant for said company.
2013-04-29 02:10:51 AM  
2 votes:

Aar1012: You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it


Who cares? The folks that wanted the money got the money, and as we've now made "Fark You, Got Mine!" practically a national axiom, in everything from business to politics to technology, it worked entirely as intended.

The rich got richer, the poor got poorer, the powerful received more power, the meek get screwed. It's the American way!
2013-04-29 01:35:53 AM  
2 votes:

doglover: The fastest way to run a good business? Shoot anyone with an MBA who tries to work for you out the door with a catapult and just take care of your workers, focus on quality product and good customer service.

Sure, you won't make as much money with all the crazy layoffs and book cookin' removed, but you'll build a real business with a loyal customer base and make products that speak for themselves, which in turn might even be bought by your employees.


I wonder who took up that business plan?

i871.photobucket.com

/All joking aside, Costco is awesome
2013-04-29 01:21:12 AM  
2 votes:
It's like a farmer slaughtering all his livestock or felling trees to sell for firewood.  It's devastating longterm, but the obsession with short term gain has led us  down this road.
2013-04-29 01:12:16 AM  
2 votes:
'Wages are stagnant, jobs are less secure, work is more intense - it's a much tougher world,' said Paul Osterman, co-director of the MIT Sloan Institute for Work and Employment Research. 'Employers have become much more aggressive about restructuring work in ways that push for higher levels of productivity.'

Yep, this kind of sounds like the company for whom I toil. Last year was, by all accounts, a really good one. Lots of new customers added and nice big profits earned. But over the last month or so senior management has made it clear they're not particularly happy with us. We had a really cheery morning meeting in which our entire department was treated to a lecture on work habits. It began with a manager saying, "I want to talk to you today about three million minutes". Apparently there was rampant tardiness and inefficiency in running meetings. This was news to everybody in my group. It's rare to see any of my co-workers showing up late or screwing around. It's pretty much a stay at your desk kind of place. Not because somebody is telling you to but because it's always really busy.

It's been so troubling to watch. All through 2012 and into the early part of this year we were praised for our productivity and told our customer service scores (measured in a variety of ways) were incredibly good. Then, suddenly, we find ourselves being told we're stealing minutes and they're going to start monitoring every keystroke a lot more closely.

I'm sure there are always some employees floating around a large company who tend to slack off but it's pretty clear it wasn't a huge problem. Employees now generally assume the company just doesn't want to do any additional hiring to cover the increased workload that comes with adding a whole mess of new customers. So just increase the workload on the current crop.

This is to be expected in today's workplace. What's troubling is the way these things are done. It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!" At least I still like the people I see everyday. It's just that the mood has changed.
2013-04-28 10:42:27 PM  
2 votes:
gingerjet:
Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

Three reasons:
1. As a recent college grad (2012) the "kids" are looking at the coursework they must take to graduate and possibly becoming your engineer, and weighing them against the probability of actually becoming employed as an engineer in this country. Those scales do not tip in favor of the student/potential engineer, so they do not choose those degrees. Even those who do obtain employment are often paid so little that it would take several lifetimes to pay off the student loan debt they have accumulated. Remember, taking the hard courses leaves less time to "work your way" through school, and thus other sources of funding must be found to continue your studies.

2. To get the "experience" you speak of, one must, you know, actually get a job first. Hiring an H1B makes employers happy because they can pay the poor schlubs less, and even figuring in the cost of training them still puts the employer ahead. Hiring someone from the local University... not so much. Short term thinking.

3. If by "kicking the kids out" you mean lower birthrates, that could be... but what causes those lower birthrates? Say it with me now "FINANCIAL INSTABILITY". In your early 20s, the time when most of us who went to college graduate, get that first job, and start a family... now those years are plagued by unemployment and underemployment, student loan debt and the catch-22 of "no experience = no job".
If I already didn't have my life in order before I went back to school there is no farking way I would even THINK about having kids at this time.
2013-04-28 09:48:34 PM  
2 votes:

sendtodave: Heraclitus: You really believe its about the bottom line?

its about control.

Always has been.

/ If you dont belong to a Union, you deserve what you get.

When someone asks you what you do, and you respond with your profession (because we are what we do), do you add the caveat that you actively try to make yourself less valuable to your employer?

It's simple.  The reason anyone has a job is to make money for the bosses.  And the more money they make for the bosses, the more valuable they are.  Conversly, the more money they take from their bosses, the less valuable they are.

"Oh!  But I am skilled!"

I have two guys making widgets.  One is skilled, and makes $2 worth of widgets.  I pay him $1.50 for his skill.  The other is not skilled, and makes only $1 worth of widgets.  I only pay him $.50.  Who makes me more money?

So, I hire 20 of the unskilled guys, which makes me $10 in widgets, and saves me $20 in labor cost over hiring skilled workers!  And then, when I fire them all, I save another $10 in labor cost, which is as much at my product is worth!

Cha-ching! Pass go, collect $200M bonus!

Dig a whole, fill it up.  With workers.


Actually, it's become "Fire half the unskilled workers and demand that the remainder continue to make $10 in widgets while decreasing pay since the economy is down and, hey, they're lucky to have a job"

Pass go and collect $200M bonus plus stock options for "synergizing outside the box"
2013-04-28 09:36:56 PM  
2 votes:
At the time, Red Lobster said the changes were being made after testing showed that diners and restaurant employees alike approved of the new policies.

Yeah, calling bullshiat on that testing.  I'm sure notice of increased workload WITH decrease pay to go with it was SO POPULAR, you lying assed mother farkers.
2013-04-28 09:23:49 PM  
2 votes:
Red Lobster spokesperson told the Orlando Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy, once it was introduced around the country, "far more folks told us that in some instances, it really turned out to be a barrier to providing that great guest experience."

I would love to speak to the mythical customers who said waitresses spending even less time taking care of their dining needs was an improvement.

What make-believe PR nonsense.
2013-04-28 09:17:53 PM  
2 votes:

Summoner101: Businesses are learning?

I highly doubt that.


No, they're regressing by firing experienced employees and losing the intangible but vital "Institutional Knowledge" their experienced employees possess.
2013-04-28 08:55:48 PM  
2 votes:
So, underpaid, overworked employees don't always provide the best customer service and that's bad for business? No shiat. The real problem is that a free-market economy is driven by "bottom-up" consumer spending, and not the meager "trickle-down" money that the rich deign to disperse to the lower classes. If the average person is living paycheck to paycheck, they're not able to spend money on goods and services beyond the bare necessities. As long as this trend continues, the average actual revenue and profits of corporations (minus accounting tricks) will continue to decline. The ultra-rich make their money from virtual investments such as hedge funds, commodities speculation, REITs, etc. As the real value behind those entities continues to erode, there will come a time when everyone realizes it's just one big circle-jerk, and we'll have another economic collapse on the scale of the Great Depression. Let's hope it doesn't get to that point.

/ is that politics-tab-grad derp?
2013-04-28 07:53:40 PM  
2 votes:
Red Lobster eliminated  busboys, demoted servers, and increased tables/server from 3 to 4.   Now they've learned their lesson and reduced tables/server back to 3.

Whar busboys and promotions?
2013-04-28 07:52:06 PM  
2 votes:
Businesses don't understand the relationship between their employees and their customer base. They keep laying off people and doing everything they can to drive down the wages of the people they do retain, and then can't understand why no one seems to be spending any money on their product or service.

One Fortune 50 company I worked for was in the process of a major off-shoring and downsizing effort. They released a quarterly financial report and in the accompanying explanation they cited "uncertainty in the employment sector" as one of the major factors for their decline in revenues. Forest? Trees? Hello?
2013-04-29 06:28:15 PM  
1 votes:

rewind2846: Girion47:
This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.

Then maybe he should try hiring people who are trainable, and not just concentrate on the already trained. From your description he seems to have fallen into the trap of "The Purple Squirrel", a trap too many employers have succumbed to as the Great Recession wears on. They chase after people who are already working and already trained, seeking that perfect employee they think won't cost them anything.

What they fail to see is that this "Purple Squirrel" will cost them a lot more than they imagined, simply because they forget one thing - if this person jumped from where they were to work for you, then there's a better than good chance that they will jump somewhere else when someone offers them even more money and benefits, possibly in the middle of a project. They will ask for pay and benefits higher than what they are currently receiving (as they should), they will hold no loyalty to you or your company (as they shouldn't), and they will be constantly on the l ...


I've actually been getting him to do that.   It isn't that he listens to me, but I put the idea in my wife's head, and then she says something to him, and then a few months later he does it as if it's his own idea.   I feel like I'm helping the younger generation get hired via this method.  go me!
2013-04-29 03:50:59 PM  
1 votes:
Girion47:
This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.


Then maybe he should try hiring people who are trainable, and not just concentrate on the already trained. From your description he seems to have fallen into the trap of "The Purple Squirrel", a trap too many employers have succumbed to as the Great Recession wears on. They chase after people who are already working and already trained, seeking that perfect employee they think won't cost them anything.

What they fail to see is that this "Purple Squirrel" will cost them a lot more than they imagined, simply because they forget one thing - if this person jumped from where they were to work for you, then there's a better than good chance that they will jump somewhere else when someone offers them even more money and benefits, possibly in the middle of a project. They will ask for pay and benefits higher than what they are currently receiving (as they should), they will hold no loyalty to you or your company (as they shouldn't), and they will be constantly on the lookout, along with recruiters, for the Bigger Better Deal (because they can).

The lack of benefits he is able to offer will not matter to anyone looking to get their foot in the door, and your father in law will benefit from having employees who can do things the way he needs them done, and not the way the employee thinks they should be done (cuz I gots all dat 'sperience, nowmsayin'?).

There are probably plenty of good people he could hire... if he would get his head out and expand his vision.
2013-04-29 01:20:15 PM  
1 votes:

Girion47: Yes please tell me how entitled I am when jobs in the 70's would allow a family of four to survive on one income with 2 cars, a house, a summer house on a lake and a boat could be had by someone without a college degree. I'm ready to feel guilty about wanting to be able to afford one mortgage without kids.


CSB Time:

While I was in college (mid 2000s), my course adviser recommended I study abroad. She said it would be a great experience and possibly open up career opportunities in other countries. The cost? $9000 on top of the $6000 in tuition and fees I was already paying. I asked her where the flying hell I was supposed to get the money for that. Her exact words were "Why don't you get a summer job?"
I politely declined, but probably could have driven my fist through her face if anger had outweighed absolute shock.
I worked every single semester of my college career, and it was never enough to do more than pay rent, utilities, and gorge on Mac n Cheese.
I've always wanted to know what was running through her head. Did she think there was a job I could get that paid $3000/month? Did the number attached not register with her as being high, despite more than doubling the cost of a semester?
It has to be some kind of generational gap. My FiL is the same way. Doesn't understand why I don't have a house, a new car, or provided him with grandchildren. He graduated debt free in 1976, paid for working summers in a warehouse. Paid off his $40K house before 1980 and then had two kids, all on one income. Thinks of my $40K in loans to pay for college as some kind of moral failing that I can make up for by working harder. He "did" it, why can't I?
2013-04-29 12:49:53 PM  
1 votes:

Sergeant Grumbles: Girion47: I feel like the boomer generation doesn't understand how much money some of these positions NEED to pay, they hear a number that would have been astronomical in their 20's and get all pissy and call the younger people "entitled" when all we really want is a livable wage.

I have actually heard how entitled this generation is because $7.25 for minimum wage is more than what someone with a college degree made in the 70's, and without a hint of irony.


Yes please tell me how entitled I am when jobs in the 70's would allow a family of four to survive on one income with 2 cars, a house, a summer house on a lake and a boat could be had by someone without a college degree.    I'm ready to feel guilty about wanting to be able to afford one mortgage without kids.
2013-04-29 12:19:59 PM  
1 votes:

Girion47: I feel like the boomer generation doesn't understand how much money some of these positions NEED to pay, they hear a number that would have been astronomical in their 20's and get all pissy and call the younger people "entitled" when all we really want is a livable wage.


I have actually heard how entitled this generation is because $7.25 for minimum wage is more than what someone with a college degree made in the 70's, and without a hint of irony.
2013-04-29 12:12:56 PM  
1 votes:
 The hell you say?

Unemployed people can't buy your crap? Hmm, who knew?
Of course the "Job Creators" have a special plan  for this, they'll just fire all American employees and replace them with people making 35 cent a day. They're hoping that the person living hand to mouth will pick up the slack for those "over paid" Americans.

Hypnozombie
/Best and brightest, Masters of Industry my ass.
//drooling vegetables would be more accurate
2013-04-29 12:11:48 PM  
1 votes:
I'm not an executive, but I work on the executive floor.  Every day I overhear impromptu meetings about how to reduce "employee expense.". Cutting benefits, raising insurance deductibles, reducing staff through attrition, etc, etc.

Yet not 30 minutes later I overhear other conversations where the execs are biatching about how much it costs to store their private planes, or moor the fishing yacht, or the got-damned greens fees at the local club.

These people would be genuinely shocked, SHOCKED, if there were ever a popular uprising.
2013-04-29 12:09:48 PM  
1 votes:

Saners: Girion47: cman: dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.

If the issue is lack of applications, let alone hired, then it sounds like the company itself is at fault. Every time this comes up here on Fark, and it does often, they never seem to link to a job listing despite it being free publicity to get some applicants. For all we know they're looking for somebody with 10 years experience for an entry level position/salary in the middle of nowhere with the only way you would know about the opening is if you were related to somebody in HR.


It's not a lack of applications that's the issue, it's that the people he pursues usually want more than he's willing to pay.  I feel like the boomer generation doesn't understand how much money some of these positions NEED to pay, they hear a number that would have been astronomical in their 20's and get all pissy and call the younger people "entitled" when all we really want is a livable wage.  Yes the numbers are higher, but inflation happened.  Even in my field I find companies are offering mid-50's for someone with 5-10 years experience and a professional certification.   That's insulting 5-10 alone should be commanding 70's-80's and a CSP or CIH easily is worth 6 figures.   This downturn has been horrible as far as companies lowering wage offers and expecting you to be grateful.
2013-04-29 11:56:59 AM  
1 votes:

Slaves2Darkness: The plant on the other hand loses $200 dollars in labor costs when the final analysis comes in, because the skilled guys knew how to setup and tear down the machines. They knew to change the oil every 20 hours, and kept the line going. The unskilled guys they burned up the five most expensive machines in the plant costing 30 hours of down time and large outlays in repair and maintenance.


Those machines only exist to be sold for pennies on the dollar anyway.
2013-04-29 11:34:04 AM  
1 votes:

cman: Circuit City found that out the hard way

Now they are no longer in business


Well that and the brilliant decision: "Ehh... home appliances are kind of a pain to deal with. They take up a lot of floor space. There is a lot of competition.  So, we're going to stop selling them."  mere MONTHS before the beginning of a HUGE housing boom.
2013-04-29 11:32:06 AM  
1 votes:

sendtodave: Heraclitus: You really believe its about the bottom line?

its about control.

Always has been.

/ If you dont belong to a Union, you deserve what you get.

When someone asks you what you do, and you respond with your profession (because we are what we do), do you add the caveat that you actively try to make yourself less valuable to your employer?

It's simple.  The reason anyone has a job is to make money for the bosses.  And the more money they make for the bosses, the more valuable they are.  Conversly, the more money they take from their bosses, the less valuable they are.

"Oh!  But I am skilled!"

I have two guys making widgets.  One is skilled, and makes $2 worth of widgets.  I pay him $1.50 for his skill.  The other is not skilled, and makes only $1 worth of widgets.  I only pay him $.50.  Who makes me more money?

So, I hire 20 of the unskilled guys, which makes me $10 in widgets, and saves me $20 in labor cost over hiring skilled workers!  And then, when I fire them all, I save another $10 in labor cost, which is as much at my product is worth!

Cha-ching! Pass go, collect $200M bonus!

Dig a whole, fill it up.  With workers.


The plant on the other hand loses $200 dollars in labor costs when the final analysis comes in, because the skilled guys knew how to setup and tear down the machines. They knew to change the oil every 20 hours, and kept the line going. The unskilled guys they burned up the five most expensive machines in the plant costing 30 hours of down time and large outlays in repair and maintenance.
2013-04-29 11:10:03 AM  
1 votes:

cman: dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.


My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.
2013-04-29 10:33:00 AM  
1 votes:
Businesses are learning that by downsizing the workforce they are, in effect, destroying their bottom line

Wait.  What businesses are learning that?  None that I've seen.
2013-04-29 08:34:34 AM  
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


You probably underpay, most companies do.
2013-04-29 07:18:53 AM  
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


Well, that explains why my husband keeps getting aggressively recruited... they want some white people diversity. Ha. Good to know. I refuse to move to California though. His company doesn't seem to have a problem finding native-born software engineers.... and so long as you don't mind the stock price sucking sometimes because wall street thinks they "overspend on labor", it's a great company to work for. Sense a theme, there?

We're all part of the problem though... when's the last time any of us that have retirement plans pressured the people running them to invest in quality instead of a quick buck?
2013-04-29 01:40:04 AM  
1 votes:

R.P.M.: i worked as a busboy and server in the late 90's, and there was no pool. plus, depending on how much you did helped on the cut you got (servers would take a cut of their tips and give them to the bus boys). maybe that's changed, or it's a regional thing. i know it's not likely, but i wish everyone had to work on commission.


I believe it changed when debit became the most common form of payment.
2013-04-29 12:06:32 AM  
1 votes:

gingerjet: Fark Me To Tears: * - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.

Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts.  They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude




So you can hire Americans cheaper, but insist on hiring H1-Bs for more money??

Really?
2013-04-28 11:17:18 PM  
1 votes:

baufan2005: I always love the old line of we are in a recession therefore we must raise prices to keep making money.  Because raising prices when people obviously have less to spend is a great business plan.


So raise taxes instead.  Let's see how well that works out.
2013-04-28 11:15:41 PM  
1 votes:
I always love the old line of we are in a recession therefore we must raise prices to keep making money.  Because raising prices when people obviously have less to spend is a great business plan.
2013-04-28 10:46:23 PM  
1 votes:

gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts.  They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude


That's because they're tied to an employer in ways no US citizen ever could be and that they depend on fraud to pave the way.  Killing that (and other like programs) would be a net positive since those guest workers do not assimilate or become US citizens.
2013-04-28 10:05:37 PM  
1 votes:
another funny thing about waiters and workers in general. some just want to make X dollars a week. when i was a waiter i didn't give a crap if someone tipped me a penny. i didn't care i was making 2/3 as much as the waiters busting their asses. i was single without  kids or debt and i had cheap hobbies and interests so i had more money in my pocket the end of the week. its not how much you make but how little you spend.
2013-04-28 10:04:33 PM  
1 votes:

sendtodave: aimtastic: When I waited tables at Red Lobster in the mid-90s, we had no bussers and running four tables at a time was the norm. The only people who couldn't provide good service to four tables at a time were noobs.


That's the spirit!  And you sure didn't want to look like a noob, I bet!  Of course not!

You worked hard to show the bosses that you are a hard worker, not for silly things like "better pay" or "a better working environment."  Good for you, and good for your bosses!

See?  Inspiring competition among the help keeps labor costs down!


No, I worked harder because it did garner me better pay in the form of tips. Every server in America worth their salt likely regards themselves more as an independent contractor than an employee of the restaurant in which they work. As long as the restaurant draws customers, every server is the master of their own destiny once those customers are seated at their tables.
2013-04-28 10:03:38 PM  
1 votes:

Phil McKraken: I get your point that H1-B workers may not benefit the economy as well as American workers.

However, work is more mobile than ever. If you scrap the H1-B program, companies will simply ship the work overseas. Then the benefit of the work ONLY benefits foreigners. At least with H1-B the workers pay taxes here, along with whatever they have to spend to live.

Given the choice between "some" and "nothing", I suggest we get "some".


The problem is that the H1-B (and every other guest worker program remotely like it) program misreads the whole supply and demand thing when it comes to labor.  It enables fraud on the level that claimed "shortages" never happen to raise costs, when they're actually surpluses that act to marginalize and oppose citizens.  That, and none of those programs are designed to ever result in productive US citizens despite the opportunity.

Kill it (and the cheerleaders/enablers of it) with fire, nuke it from orbit, repeat, and consider the foregone revenue a sunk cost.  Then make offshoring just as painful in its death.   If any interests complain(i.e. they do it through K Street), start using the legal tools that we have in place to make them regret the whole practice.  If businesses are willing to play hardball with people to marginalize citizens, be willing to return the favor.  Otherwise you're screwing both the foreigner and the citizen at the same farking time.
2013-04-28 10:02:47 PM  
1 votes:
When can we start executing "Consultants" and idiot Managers who decide that employees are Cost Centers to be eliminated?  Preferably with fire.  We should kill them with fire.

"Pish posh!  Busboys!  They don't bring in money!  All they do is COST money!  Get rid of the lot!"
2013-04-28 09:59:31 PM  
1 votes:

aimtastic: When I waited tables at Red Lobster in the mid-90s, we had no bussers and running four tables at a time was the norm. The only people who couldn't provide good service to four tables at a time were noobs.



That's the spirit!  And you sure didn't want to look like a noob, I bet!  Of course not!

You worked hard to show the bosses that you are a hard worker, not for silly things like "better pay" or "a better working environment."  Good for you, and good for your bosses!

See?  Inspiring competition among the help keeps labor costs down!
2013-04-28 09:51:45 PM  
1 votes:

Thingster: In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.



What Henry Ford did in that generation is almost impossible with the current work force. Now days before people get hired at a company they think they are getting screwed and enter the company work force thinking they deserve more for just being there. The mentality builds until they are truly dissatisfied and then they started the process over at another job. I've seen it at past jobs and see it at the current one. The issue is compounded by recent college grads who think they will make CEO of a Fortune500 company 5 years out of school with only a 4 year management degree.

We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-04-28 09:41:20 PM  
1 votes:
Once the management of any company begins to believe it's most valuable asset is anything but it's workforce, they've began walking the path to bankruptcy.
2013-04-28 09:32:17 PM  
1 votes:

sendtodave: Thingster: Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.

As if you still need to actually make products to make money.  This ain't 1913, pal.  Times change.  If your business actually needs real products for real customers, you're in the wrong business.

Labor was only marginally useful in making money back then.  Now, it is pretty much unnecessary, 'cept for Red Lobster.


Hence "products and services"

/I realize you aren't being serious, but I put that in there anticipating someone making this argument sincerely.
2013-04-28 09:11:23 PM  
1 votes:
Businesses are learning?

I highly doubt that.
2013-04-28 09:05:40 PM  
1 votes:

Thingster: Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.


105 years later, and in some ways we've measurably regressed as a society.  It's sad.
2013-04-28 08:43:31 PM  
1 votes:

Aar1012: You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it


The frustrating thing is that this pattern of behavior, where long-term growth and stability are sacrificed for next quarter's profit, has been a freaking cancer  on American business for at least the last 30-40 years.
2013-04-28 08:41:14 PM  
1 votes:
Fire the experienced help, hire schlubs/Inidans/Messicans at 1/3 the cost.  Bottom line is pretty for 1 quarter. Get bonus, Quit. Bazinga!

Hate management.  No better than leeches in the IT worlld.
 
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