If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Time)   Businesses are learning that by downsizing the workforce they are, in effect, destroying their bottom line   (business.time.com) divider line 162
    More: Ironic, layoffs, MIT Sloan, Red Lobster, Domino's Pizza, morale, businesses  
•       •       •

5981 clicks; posted to Business » on 28 Apr 2013 at 8:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



162 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-04-28 07:34:18 PM
You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it
 
2013-04-28 07:52:06 PM
Businesses don't understand the relationship between their employees and their customer base. They keep laying off people and doing everything they can to drive down the wages of the people they do retain, and then can't understand why no one seems to be spending any money on their product or service.

One Fortune 50 company I worked for was in the process of a major off-shoring and downsizing effort. They released a quarterly financial report and in the accompanying explanation they cited "uncertainty in the employment sector" as one of the major factors for their decline in revenues. Forest? Trees? Hello?
 
2013-04-28 07:53:40 PM
Red Lobster eliminated  busboys, demoted servers, and increased tables/server from 3 to 4.   Now they've learned their lesson and reduced tables/server back to 3.

Whar busboys and promotions?
 
2013-04-28 07:54:33 PM
That's what happens when you allow the professional investor class to run things.
 
2013-04-28 08:04:05 PM

Fark Me To Tears: One Fortune 50 company I worked for was in the process of a major off-shoring and downsizing effort. They released a quarterly financial report and in the accompanying explanation they cited "uncertainty in the employment sector" as one of the major factors for their decline in revenues. Forest? Trees? Hello?


And speaking of off-shoring... Employers, when you send your jobs off-shore and lay off your domestic employees, just where do you think your wage dollars are going to be spent?

Even if you pull the completely illegal* stunt of replacing American workers with H-1Bs, most of the money that you're playing them is still going out of the country, usually back home. Unless your company also make sales in that other country, you're basically letting air out of the balloon. It amazes me that all these overpaid MBAs don't see that.

* - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.
 
2013-04-28 08:09:55 PM
fta The burden becomes too much for workers to bear, and when employees are overwhelmed and can't keep up with their duties, it's just plain bad for business.

So? Fire them. Or beat them. Or beat them and then fire them. The point is to abuse those slackers so much that you strike fear into the hearts of those who haven't quit yet.
 
2013-04-28 08:24:40 PM
I remember when Circuit City fired all their top sales staff and replaced them with school leavers on far lower pay. I also remember what then happened to Circuit City....
 
2013-04-28 08:41:14 PM
Fire the experienced help, hire schlubs/Inidans/Messicans at 1/3 the cost.  Bottom line is pretty for 1 quarter. Get bonus, Quit. Bazinga!

Hate management.  No better than leeches in the IT worlld.
 
2013-04-28 08:43:31 PM

Aar1012: You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it


The frustrating thing is that this pattern of behavior, where long-term growth and stability are sacrificed for next quarter's profit, has been a freaking cancer  on American business for at least the last 30-40 years.
 
2013-04-28 08:45:55 PM

HMS_Blinkin: Aar1012: You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it

The frustrating thing is that this pattern of behavior, where long-term growth and stability are sacrificed for next quarter's profit, has been a freaking cancer  on American business for at least the last 30-40 years.


For a cancer patient, the American economy looks remarkably healthy.
 
2013-04-28 08:48:10 PM

DKinMN: HMS_Blinkin: Aar1012: You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it

The frustrating thing is that this pattern of behavior, where long-term growth and stability are sacrificed for next quarter's profit, has been a freaking cancer  on American business for at least the last 30-40 years.

For a cancer patient, the American economy looks remarkably healthy.


It's like pancreatic cancer. You look and feel fine. Until you don't. And then you die.
 
2013-04-28 08:50:59 PM
The problem is I doubt we will return to viable equilibrium without skull cracking and goo feasting. The system is just too far stacked toward the new "ruling class" for it to be changed from within.
 
2013-04-28 08:55:48 PM
So, underpaid, overworked employees don't always provide the best customer service and that's bad for business? No shiat. The real problem is that a free-market economy is driven by "bottom-up" consumer spending, and not the meager "trickle-down" money that the rich deign to disperse to the lower classes. If the average person is living paycheck to paycheck, they're not able to spend money on goods and services beyond the bare necessities. As long as this trend continues, the average actual revenue and profits of corporations (minus accounting tricks) will continue to decline. The ultra-rich make their money from virtual investments such as hedge funds, commodities speculation, REITs, etc. As the real value behind those entities continues to erode, there will come a time when everyone realizes it's just one big circle-jerk, and we'll have another economic collapse on the scale of the Great Depression. Let's hope it doesn't get to that point.

/ is that politics-tab-grad derp?
 
2013-04-28 09:00:55 PM
Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.
 
2013-04-28 09:01:20 PM

Fark Me To Tears: Fark Me To Tears: One Fortune 50 company I worked for was in the process of a major off-shoring and downsizing effort. They released a quarterly financial report and in the accompanying explanation they cited "uncertainty in the employment sector" as one of the major factors for their decline in revenues. Forest? Trees? Hello?

And speaking of off-shoring... Employers, when you send your jobs off-shore and lay off your domestic employees, just where do you think your wage dollars are going to be spent?

Even if you pull the completely illegal* stunt of replacing American workers with H-1Bs, most of the money that you're playing them is still going out of the country, usually back home. Unless your company also make sales in that other country, you're basically letting air out of the balloon. It amazes me that all these overpaid MBAs don't see that.

* - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.


I get your point that H1-B workers may not benefit the economy as well as American workers.

However, work is more mobile than ever. If you scrap the H1-B program, companies will simply ship the work overseas. Then the benefit of the work ONLY benefits foreigners. At least with H1-B the workers pay taxes here, along with whatever they have to spend to live.

Given the choice between "some" and "nothing", I suggest we get "some".
 
2013-04-28 09:03:15 PM

Fark Me To Tears: Fark Me To Tears: One Fortune 50 company I worked for was in the process of a major off-shoring and downsizing effort. They released a quarterly financial report and in the accompanying explanation they cited "uncertainty in the employment sector" as one of the major factors for their decline in revenues. Forest? Trees? Hello?

And speaking of off-shoring... Employers, when you send your jobs off-shore and lay off your domestic employees, just where do you think your wage dollars are going to be spent?

Even if you pull the completely illegal* stunt of replacing American workers with H-1Bs, most of the money that you're playing them is still going out of the country, usually back home. Unless your company also make sales in that other country, you're basically letting air out of the balloon. It amazes me that all these overpaid MBAs don't see that.

* - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.




MBAs don't care about long-term investment. Their only concern is making the next quarter's numbers look good so they can collect their bonuses and stock options.
 
2013-04-28 09:05:40 PM

Thingster: Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.


105 years later, and in some ways we've measurably regressed as a society.  It's sad.
 
2013-04-28 09:05:54 PM

reported: / is that politics-tab-grad derp?


Meh, I didn't mean derp, I meant rant. I'm just too tired and distracted now to make my point effectively.
 
2013-04-28 09:06:13 PM
reisman.lohudblogs.com
Oblig.
 
2013-04-28 09:09:44 PM
Some businesses have a less-than-current model and can suffer for it. Efficiency needs to be balanced with practicality.

/Easy words
//Business analysts shouldn't be the final word in a model
 
2013-04-28 09:11:23 PM
Businesses are learning?

I highly doubt that.
 
2013-04-28 09:16:15 PM

Flint Ironstag: I remember when Circuit City fired all their top sales staff and replaced them with school leavers on far lower pay. I also remember what then happened to Circuit City....


However, the arrogance of some of these people is such that they think that THEY will somehow be the ones to make it work...or if not, they'll get out with a profit before it craters.
 
2013-04-28 09:17:53 PM

Summoner101: Businesses are learning?

I highly doubt that.


No, they're regressing by firing experienced employees and losing the intangible but vital "Institutional Knowledge" their experienced employees possess.
 
2013-04-28 09:22:24 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: DKinMN: HMS_Blinkin: Aar1012: You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it

The frustrating thing is that this pattern of behavior, where long-term growth and stability are sacrificed for next quarter's profit, has been a freaking cancer  on American business for at least the last 30-40 years.

For a cancer patient, the American economy looks remarkably healthy.

It's like pancreatic cancer. You look and feel fine. Until you don't. And then you die.


United States = the "Steve Jobs" of "First World" nations...
 
2013-04-28 09:23:49 PM
Red Lobster spokesperson told the Orlando Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy, once it was introduced around the country, "far more folks told us that in some instances, it really turned out to be a barrier to providing that great guest experience."

I would love to speak to the mythical customers who said waitresses spending even less time taking care of their dining needs was an improvement.

What make-believe PR nonsense.
 
2013-04-28 09:24:14 PM
Its funny how business analysts have no common sense. Anyone in here (and Fark is filled with crazies) saw this as the only outcome to continuous downsizing.
 
2013-04-28 09:26:27 PM

Thingster: Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.


As if you still need to actually make products to make money.  This ain't 1913, pal.  Times change.  If your business actually needs real products for real customers, you're in the wrong business.

Labor was only marginally useful in making money back then.  Now, it is pretty much unnecessary, 'cept for Red Lobster.
 
2013-04-28 09:27:26 PM
You really believe its about the bottom line?

its about control.

Always has been.

/ If you dont belong to a Union, you deserve what you get.
 
2013-04-28 09:30:45 PM

Flint Ironstag: I remember when Circuit City fired all their top sales staff and replaced them with school leavers on far lower pay. I also remember what then happened to Circuit City....


Bonuses are sometimes paid to executives closing a company's doors for good. Circuit City Stores Inc. won approval, over Justice Department objections, to pay $2.3 million in bonuses to top executives for overseeing the company's liquidation during the height of the financial crisis. The retailer's demise eliminated more than 39,000 jobs.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190370360457658448075054 5 602.html

The point of a business is for the guys at the top to make money.  You know, the capitalists.  They made money by killing Circuit City.

And nothing of value was lost.
 
2013-04-28 09:32:17 PM

sendtodave: Thingster: Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.

As if you still need to actually make products to make money.  This ain't 1913, pal.  Times change.  If your business actually needs real products for real customers, you're in the wrong business.

Labor was only marginally useful in making money back then.  Now, it is pretty much unnecessary, 'cept for Red Lobster.


Hence "products and services"

/I realize you aren't being serious, but I put that in there anticipating someone making this argument sincerely.
 
2013-04-28 09:34:56 PM

Summoner101: Businesses are learning?

I highly doubt that.


This - Malaysian monkey trap. you can't change primate behavior. the wealthy and powerful know exactly how they caused the last great depression, and they are going to cause another one by doing the exact same things, because they literally cannot stop themselves - because they are apes, like the rest of us.
The Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch can no more stop themselves than a crack-addicted ghetto-rat can stop himself from robbing a liquor store. It's ape programming.
 
2013-04-28 09:36:56 PM
At the time, Red Lobster said the changes were being made after testing showed that diners and restaurant employees alike approved of the new policies.

Yeah, calling bullshiat on that testing.  I'm sure notice of increased workload WITH decrease pay to go with it was SO POPULAR, you lying assed mother farkers.
 
2013-04-28 09:37:29 PM
"Bu-bu-but how is we gonna pay our executives and board of directors and stockholders their whole buncha heap-o-money if we don't employ only one person per branch?!?!?"

*Scrounges through closet for shocked face*
 
2013-04-28 09:38:53 PM

Heraclitus: You really believe its about the bottom line?

its about control.

Always has been.

/ If you dont belong to a Union, you deserve what you get.


Except that a lot of non-union places will parachute in the legal team if the word "Union" is so much as uttered by an employee. Hell, I bet that the anti-union law teams of some corporations is larger than the payroll to the low level employees
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-04-28 09:41:20 PM
Once the management of any company begins to believe it's most valuable asset is anything but it's workforce, they've began walking the path to bankruptcy.
 
2013-04-28 09:44:20 PM

Heraclitus: You really believe its about the bottom line?

its about control.

Always has been.

/ If you dont belong to a Union, you deserve what you get.


When someone asks you what you do, and you respond with your profession (because we are what we do), do you add the caveat that you actively try to make yourself less valuable to your employer?

It's simple.  The reason anyone has a job is to make money for the bosses.  And the more money they make for the bosses, the more valuable they are.  Conversly, the more money they take from their bosses, the less valuable they are.

"Oh!  But I am skilled!"

I have two guys making widgets.  One is skilled, and makes $2 worth of widgets.  I pay him $1.50 for his skill.  The other is not skilled, and makes only $1 worth of widgets.  I only pay him $.50.  Who makes me more money?

So, I hire 20 of the unskilled guys, which makes me $10 in widgets, and saves me $20 in labor cost over hiring skilled workers!  And then, when I fire them all, I save another $10 in labor cost, which is as much at my product is worth!

Cha-ching! Pass go, collect $200M bonus!

Dig a whole, fill it up.  With workers.
 
2013-04-28 09:48:34 PM

sendtodave: Heraclitus: You really believe its about the bottom line?

its about control.

Always has been.

/ If you dont belong to a Union, you deserve what you get.

When someone asks you what you do, and you respond with your profession (because we are what we do), do you add the caveat that you actively try to make yourself less valuable to your employer?

It's simple.  The reason anyone has a job is to make money for the bosses.  And the more money they make for the bosses, the more valuable they are.  Conversly, the more money they take from their bosses, the less valuable they are.

"Oh!  But I am skilled!"

I have two guys making widgets.  One is skilled, and makes $2 worth of widgets.  I pay him $1.50 for his skill.  The other is not skilled, and makes only $1 worth of widgets.  I only pay him $.50.  Who makes me more money?

So, I hire 20 of the unskilled guys, which makes me $10 in widgets, and saves me $20 in labor cost over hiring skilled workers!  And then, when I fire them all, I save another $10 in labor cost, which is as much at my product is worth!

Cha-ching! Pass go, collect $200M bonus!

Dig a whole, fill it up.  With workers.


Actually, it's become "Fire half the unskilled workers and demand that the remainder continue to make $10 in widgets while decreasing pay since the economy is down and, hey, they're lucky to have a job"

Pass go and collect $200M bonus plus stock options for "synergizing outside the box"
 
2013-04-28 09:50:32 PM

NFA: Once the management of any company begins to believe it's most valuable asset is anything but it's workforce, they've began walking the path to bankruptcy.


as·set /ˈaset/
Noun

A useful or valuable thing, person, or quality: "quick reflexes were his chief asset".
Property owned by a person or company, regarded as having value and available to meet debts, commitments, or legacies.


Nope, not seeing it.

ex·pense /ikˈspens/
Noun

The cost required for something; the money spent on something.


Ah, there we go.
 
2013-04-28 09:51:45 PM

Thingster: In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.



What Henry Ford did in that generation is almost impossible with the current work force. Now days before people get hired at a company they think they are getting screwed and enter the company work force thinking they deserve more for just being there. The mentality builds until they are truly dissatisfied and then they started the process over at another job. I've seen it at past jobs and see it at the current one. The issue is compounded by recent college grads who think they will make CEO of a Fortune500 company 5 years out of school with only a 4 year management degree.

We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.
 
2013-04-28 09:52:48 PM

Aar1012: Actually, it's become "Fire half the unskilled workers and demand that the remainder continue to make $10 in widgets while decreasing pay since the economy is down and, hey, they're lucky to have a job"

Pass go and collect $200M bonus plus stock options for "synergizing outside the box"


I like the way you think, kid.  You're going places.
 
2013-04-28 09:54:17 PM
When I waited tables at Red Lobster in the mid-90s, we had no bussers and running four tables at a time was the norm. The only people who couldn't provide good service to four tables at a time were noobs.
 
2013-04-28 09:57:21 PM

Fark Me To Tears: * - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.


Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts.  They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude
 
2013-04-28 09:59:31 PM

aimtastic: When I waited tables at Red Lobster in the mid-90s, we had no bussers and running four tables at a time was the norm. The only people who couldn't provide good service to four tables at a time were noobs.



That's the spirit!  And you sure didn't want to look like a noob, I bet!  Of course not!

You worked hard to show the bosses that you are a hard worker, not for silly things like "better pay" or "a better working environment."  Good for you, and good for your bosses!

See?  Inspiring competition among the help keeps labor costs down!
 
2013-04-28 10:02:47 PM
When can we start executing "Consultants" and idiot Managers who decide that employees are Cost Centers to be eliminated?  Preferably with fire.  We should kill them with fire.

"Pish posh!  Busboys!  They don't bring in money!  All they do is COST money!  Get rid of the lot!"
 
2013-04-28 10:03:38 PM

Phil McKraken: I get your point that H1-B workers may not benefit the economy as well as American workers.

However, work is more mobile than ever. If you scrap the H1-B program, companies will simply ship the work overseas. Then the benefit of the work ONLY benefits foreigners. At least with H1-B the workers pay taxes here, along with whatever they have to spend to live.

Given the choice between "some" and "nothing", I suggest we get "some".


The problem is that the H1-B (and every other guest worker program remotely like it) program misreads the whole supply and demand thing when it comes to labor.  It enables fraud on the level that claimed "shortages" never happen to raise costs, when they're actually surpluses that act to marginalize and oppose citizens.  That, and none of those programs are designed to ever result in productive US citizens despite the opportunity.

Kill it (and the cheerleaders/enablers of it) with fire, nuke it from orbit, repeat, and consider the foregone revenue a sunk cost.  Then make offshoring just as painful in its death.   If any interests complain(i.e. they do it through K Street), start using the legal tools that we have in place to make them regret the whole practice.  If businesses are willing to play hardball with people to marginalize citizens, be willing to return the favor.  Otherwise you're screwing both the foreigner and the citizen at the same farking time.
 
2013-04-28 10:04:33 PM

sendtodave: aimtastic: When I waited tables at Red Lobster in the mid-90s, we had no bussers and running four tables at a time was the norm. The only people who couldn't provide good service to four tables at a time were noobs.


That's the spirit!  And you sure didn't want to look like a noob, I bet!  Of course not!

You worked hard to show the bosses that you are a hard worker, not for silly things like "better pay" or "a better working environment."  Good for you, and good for your bosses!

See?  Inspiring competition among the help keeps labor costs down!


No, I worked harder because it did garner me better pay in the form of tips. Every server in America worth their salt likely regards themselves more as an independent contractor than an employee of the restaurant in which they work. As long as the restaurant draws customers, every server is the master of their own destiny once those customers are seated at their tables.
 
2013-04-28 10:05:19 PM

Fark Me To Tears: * - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.


The Grigsby & Cohen law firm(and many traitors like them) would like to disagree with you.
 
2013-04-28 10:05:37 PM
another funny thing about waiters and workers in general. some just want to make X dollars a week. when i was a waiter i didn't give a crap if someone tipped me a penny. i didn't care i was making 2/3 as much as the waiters busting their asses. i was single without  kids or debt and i had cheap hobbies and interests so i had more money in my pocket the end of the week. its not how much you make but how little you spend.
 
2013-04-28 10:08:13 PM

aimtastic: No, I worked harder because it did garner me better pay in the form of tips. Every server in America worth their salt likely regards themselves more as an independent contractor than an employee of the restaurant in which they work. As long as the restaurant draws customers, every server is the master of their own destiny once those customers are seated at their tables.


Or that independent contractors are largely used by shiatty employers to show their general distrust of their workers.  Few exceptions.
 
2013-04-28 10:13:07 PM
farm4.staticflickr.com
"Management decisions often involve trial and error."
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-04-28 10:14:09 PM

NFA: Once the management of any company begins to believe it's most valuable asset is anything but it's workforce, they've began walking the path to bankruptcy.


One more time without dozing off while writing....

Once the management of any company begins to believe their most valuable asset is anything but a happy productive workforce, they've begun walking the path to bankruptcy.
 
2013-04-28 10:14:35 PM

aimtastic: sendtodave: aimtastic: When I waited tables at Red Lobster in the mid-90s, we had no bussers and running four tables at a time was the norm. The only people who couldn't provide good service to four tables at a time were noobs.


That's the spirit!  And you sure didn't want to look like a noob, I bet!  Of course not!

You worked hard to show the bosses that you are a hard worker, not for silly things like "better pay" or "a better working environment."  Good for you, and good for your bosses!

See?  Inspiring competition among the help keeps labor costs down!

No, I worked harder because it did garner me better pay in the form of tips. Every server in America worth their salt likely regards themselves more as an independent contractor than an employee of the restaurant in which they work. As long as the restaurant draws customers, every server is the master of their own destiny once those customers are seated at their tables.


Hey, whatever you need to tell yourself so that you keep working cheaply is fine by me!

You are the master!  I'm just the little ole capitalist.  I am in awe.  Really, I work for you!  Or some such bullshiat, Iunno, I'm late for golf.  Hey, could you carry my bag to my car?  The BMW right outside, yeah.  There's a nice tip in it for you!
 
2013-04-28 10:17:54 PM

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: When can we start executing "Consultants" and idiot Managers who decide that employees are Cost Centers to be eliminated?  Preferably with fire.  We should kill them with fire.

"Pish posh!  Busboys!  They don't bring in money!  All they do is COST money!  Get rid of the lot!"


I don't understand what you are trying to say.  Labor isn't a cost?  Or that companies shouldn't work to minimize or eliminate costs?

Where did you get your MBA?
 
2013-04-28 10:21:46 PM

starlost: another funny thing about waiters and workers in general. some just want to make X dollars a week. when i was a waiter i didn't give a crap if someone tipped me a penny. i didn't care i was making 2/3 as much as the waiters busting their asses. i was single without  kids or debt and i had cheap hobbies and interests so i had more money in my pocket the end of the week. its not how much you make but how little you spend.


Exactly!  I've been saying for years that poor people spend too much.

Why is it every time I, a rich capitalist, make this same argument, all I hear is "class warfare this" and "jump you farker that?"
 
2013-04-28 10:33:39 PM

sendtodave: Thingster: Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.

As if you still need to actually make products to make money.  This ain't 1913, pal.  Times change.  If your business actually needs real products for real customers, you're in the wrong business.

Labor was only marginally useful in making money back then.  Now, it is pretty much unnecessary, 'cept for Red Lobster.


Absolutely. Check the lists of richest people. I believe moving-money-around is the only profitable business left. Making things costs too much.
 
2013-04-28 10:42:27 PM
gingerjet:
Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

Three reasons:
1. As a recent college grad (2012) the "kids" are looking at the coursework they must take to graduate and possibly becoming your engineer, and weighing them against the probability of actually becoming employed as an engineer in this country. Those scales do not tip in favor of the student/potential engineer, so they do not choose those degrees. Even those who do obtain employment are often paid so little that it would take several lifetimes to pay off the student loan debt they have accumulated. Remember, taking the hard courses leaves less time to "work your way" through school, and thus other sources of funding must be found to continue your studies.

2. To get the "experience" you speak of, one must, you know, actually get a job first. Hiring an H1B makes employers happy because they can pay the poor schlubs less, and even figuring in the cost of training them still puts the employer ahead. Hiring someone from the local University... not so much. Short term thinking.

3. If by "kicking the kids out" you mean lower birthrates, that could be... but what causes those lower birthrates? Say it with me now "FINANCIAL INSTABILITY". In your early 20s, the time when most of us who went to college graduate, get that first job, and start a family... now those years are plagued by unemployment and underemployment, student loan debt and the catch-22 of "no experience = no job".
If I already didn't have my life in order before I went back to school there is no farking way I would even THINK about having kids at this time.
 
2013-04-28 10:46:23 PM

gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts.  They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude


That's because they're tied to an employer in ways no US citizen ever could be and that they depend on fraud to pave the way.  Killing that (and other like programs) would be a net positive since those guest workers do not assimilate or become US citizens.
 
2013-04-28 11:15:41 PM
I always love the old line of we are in a recession therefore we must raise prices to keep making money.  Because raising prices when people obviously have less to spend is a great business plan.
 
2013-04-28 11:17:18 PM

baufan2005: I always love the old line of we are in a recession therefore we must raise prices to keep making money.  Because raising prices when people obviously have less to spend is a great business plan.


So raise taxes instead.  Let's see how well that works out.
 
2013-04-28 11:20:05 PM

gingerjet: They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude


The Americans with advanced degrees don't want you for a boss, and the H1B's have no choice but to kiss your ass.

The U.S. has a surplus of skilled workers, so anything you say beyond "I don't want to pay for them." is a lie.
 
2013-04-28 11:26:01 PM

Smeggy Smurf: baufan2005: I always love the old line of we are in a recession therefore we must raise prices to keep making money.  Because raising prices when people obviously have less to spend is a great business plan.

So raise taxes instead.  Let's see how well that works out.


Both ideas work in a plutonomy.  Rich guys are still rich, they're all that matter.

Didn't you guys read the Citigroup memos?

"We project that the plutonomies (the U.S., UK, and Canada) will likely see even more income inequality, disproportionately feeding off a further rise in the profit share in their economies, capitalist-friendly governments, more technology-driven productivity, and globalization... Since we think the plutonomy is here, is going to get stronger... It is a good time to switch out of stocks that sell to the masses and back to the plutonomy basket. "
 
2013-04-28 11:30:02 PM

gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude


This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)
 
2013-04-28 11:33:53 PM
BUT... BUT... The Wharton boys say that the key to delighting the shareholders is to get good numbers for the quarter!  If we fire everyone, liquidate all our assets, stop production and sell off all the inventory, all we'll have is profit?!  AMIRITE?  WHAT could go wrong?
 
2013-04-28 11:36:09 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Fire the experienced help, hire schlubs/Inidans/Messicans at 1/3 the cost.  Bottom line is pretty for 1 quarter. Get bonus, Quit. Bazinga!

Hate management.  No better than leeches in the IT worlld.


The secret to success!  Burn the place down, hand the insurance payout to the shareholders and RUN!
 
2013-04-28 11:36:54 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Red Lobster eliminated  busboys, demoted servers, and increased tables/server from 3 to 4.   Now they've learned their lesson and reduced tables/server back to 3.

Whar busboys and promotions?


Dunno about the busboys, but there was once a Red Lobster exec who came up with the "All You Can Eat Snow Crab Legs" promotion a few years back, which kicked in just as there was a downturn in the snow crab harvest that year and prices had skyrocketed.

I don't think they ever found that exec's body after that.
 
2013-04-28 11:41:22 PM

RabidJade: Thingster: In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.


What Henry Ford did in that generation is almost impossible with the current work force. Now days before people get hired at a company they think they are getting screwed and enter the company work force thinking they deserve more for just being there. The mentality builds until they are truly dissatisfied and then they started the process over at another job. I've seen it at past jobs and see it at the current one. The issue is compounded by recent college grads who think they will make CEO of a Fortune500 company 5 years out of school with only a 4 year management degree.

We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.


Here's a little clue to the truth - the two "sides" of this argument are not mutually exclusive, and both can be, and are, true.
 
2013-04-28 11:41:35 PM

sendtodave: Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: When can we start executing "Consultants" and idiot Managers who decide that employees are Cost Centers to be eliminated?  Preferably with fire.  We should kill them with fire.

"Pish posh!  Busboys!  They don't bring in money!  All they do is COST money!  Get rid of the lot!"

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  Labor isn't a cost?  Or that companies shouldn't work to minimize or eliminate costs?

Where did you get your MBA?


Hey, get rid of them all.  Shut it all down.  Eliminate ALL your costs.  The real business of any business is making money, right?  So stop doing what you do, license the brand and let someone else do all the work for as cheap as possible.  Just slap brand stickers on someone else's poorly made shiat.  That's efficiency!
 
2013-04-28 11:42:51 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: gingerjet: They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

The Americans with advanced degrees don't want you for a boss, and the H1B's have no choice but to kiss your ass.

The U.S. has a surplus of skilled workers, so anything you say beyond "I don't want to pay for them." is a lie.


What is considered a skilled worker these days?  Been looking for "skilled" workers for 4 years now and it seems that they don't exist.  Was/Am even willing to train, but i guess people don't see the skill in the work that i do.
 
2013-04-28 11:48:09 PM

Fecacacophany: Hey, get rid of them all.  Shut it all down.  Eliminate ALL your costs.  The real business of any business is making money, right?  So stop doing what you do, license the brand and let someone else do all the work for as cheap as possible.  Just slap brand stickers on someone else's poorly made shiat.  That's efficiency!


ts2.mm.bing.net !
 
2013-04-28 11:49:24 PM

sendtodave: Fecacacophany: Hey, get rid of them all.  Shut it all down.  Eliminate ALL your costs.  The real business of any business is making money, right?  So stop doing what you do, license the brand and let someone else do all the work for as cheap as possible.  Just slap brand stickers on someone else's poorly made shiat.  That's efficiency!

[ts2.mm.bing.net image 174x166] !


OH.  Herrrrro!
 
2013-04-28 11:49:38 PM

soia: Sergeant Grumbles: gingerjet: They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

The Americans with advanced degrees don't want you for a boss, and the H1B's have no choice but to kiss your ass.

The U.S. has a surplus of skilled workers, so anything you say beyond "I don't want to pay for them." is a lie.

What is considered a skilled worker these days?  Been looking for "skilled" workers for 4 years now and it seems that they don't exist.  Was/Am even willing to train, but i guess people don't see the skill in the work that i do.


What is it that you do?
 
2013-04-28 11:50:41 PM

aimtastic: No, I worked harder because it did garner me better pay in the form of tips. Every server in America worth their salt likely regards themselves more as an independent contractor than an employee of the restaurant in which they work. As long as the restaurant draws customers, every server is the master of their own destiny once those customers are seated at their tables.


Every restaurant I've ever been to, the servers don't pocket the tips. All tips are pooled and at the end of the shift distributed equally among servers, bussers, and kitchen staff. So your high quality service doesn't benefit you, it benefits the whole restaurant. Just like communism.
 
2013-04-28 11:54:11 PM

Fecacacophany: sendtodave: Fecacacophany: Hey, get rid of them all.  Shut it all down.  Eliminate ALL your costs.  The real business of any business is making money, right?  So stop doing what you do, license the brand and let someone else do all the work for as cheap as possible.  Just slap brand stickers on someone else's poorly made shiat.  That's efficiency!

[ts2.mm.bing.net image 174x166] !

OH.  Herrrrro!


Sanrio is the perfect company.
 
2013-04-28 11:55:40 PM
Shouldn't someone start chanting "Burn, baby, burn!!" ??
 
2013-04-28 11:55:58 PM

Summoner101: Businesses are learning?

I highly doubt that.


Rarely is the question asked: is our businesses learning?

i651.photobucket.com
Also, can you put food on your businesses? CAN YOU?!

i651.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-28 11:57:34 PM
I wonder how many Sigma Six black belt it took to figure this out.
 
2013-04-29 12:00:34 AM

minoridiot: I wonder how many Sigma Six black belt it took to figure this out.


A pareto efficient number of them.
 
2013-04-29 12:00:40 AM

sendtodave: Fecacacophany: sendtodave: Fecacacophany: Hey, get rid of them all.  Shut it all down.  Eliminate ALL your costs.  The real business of any business is making money, right?  So stop doing what you do, license the brand and let someone else do all the work for as cheap as possible.  Just slap brand stickers on someone else's poorly made shiat.  That's efficiency!

[ts2.mm.bing.net image 174x166] !

OH.  Herrrrro!

Sanrio is the perfect company.


I agree.  They are an ideal model.  A brand that has no measurable value beyond that assigned by the demands of a fickle consumer base, which they can easily manipulate.  If only EVERY company could be Sanrio.  Then none of us would have to work because nobody would actually do any work, because everyone would just subcon the subcon's subcons.  The snake would eat itself.
 
2013-04-29 12:02:57 AM

sendtodave: minoridiot: I wonder how many Sigma Six black belt it took to figure this out.

A pareto efficient number of them.


They were all properly labeled and hanging off their assigned hooks.
 
2013-04-29 12:03:24 AM

minoridiot: I wonder how many Sigma Six black belt it took to figure this out.


This is pretty much the only thing our country seems to produce anymore...a bunch of forms to prove we can comply with the latest corporate big thing that everybody is doing. ISO, Six Sigma, LEED, whatever that may be.

What I need to do is come up with that next big thing so I can fleece large corporations and make them happy for the privilege. They might even add it to the signage and promotional materials they give to prospective customers, giving me free advertising.
 
2013-04-29 12:05:40 AM

buzzcut73: minoridiot: I wonder how many Sigma Six black belt it took to figure this out.

This is pretty much the only thing our country seems to produce anymore...a bunch of forms to prove we can comply with the latest corporate big thing that everybody is doing. ISO, Six Sigma, LEED, whatever that may be.

What I need to do is come up with that next big thing so I can fleece large corporations and make them happy for the privilege. They might even add it to the signage and promotional materials they give to prospective customers, giving me free advertising.


The next big thing will be to take the Six Sigma consultants and apply Six Sigma to them.  Stick a label on the tool and then hang the tool off the appropriate hook.  For example: http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2012/05/nine-bodies-found-hanging-off-n u evo.html
 
2013-04-29 12:06:32 AM

gingerjet: Fark Me To Tears: * - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.

Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts.  They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude




So you can hire Americans cheaper, but insist on hiring H1-Bs for more money??

Really?
 
2013-04-29 12:12:12 AM

HempHead: gingerjet: Fark Me To Tears: * - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.

Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts.  They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

So you can hire Americans cheaper, but insist on hiring H1-Bs for more money??

Really?


Seems legit.
 
2013-04-29 12:21:55 AM

Ishkur: aimtastic: No, I worked harder because it did garner me better pay in the form of tips. Every server in America worth their salt likely regards themselves more as an independent contractor than an employee of the restaurant in which they work. As long as the restaurant draws customers, every server is the master of their own destiny once those customers are seated at their tables.

Every restaurant I've ever been to, the servers don't pocket the tips. All tips are pooled and at the end of the shift distributed equally among servers, bussers, and kitchen staff. So your high quality service doesn't benefit you, it benefits the whole restaurant. Just like communism.


i worked as a busboy and server in the late 90's, and there was no pool.  plus, depending on how much you did helped on the cut you got (servers would take a cut of their tips and give them to the bus boys). maybe that's changed, or it's a regional thing.  i know it's not likely, but i wish everyone had to work on commission.
 
2013-04-29 12:35:48 AM
My company was bought by Time Warner Cable. My job used to be a Field Engineer. I carried tools and installed equipment, but I also built and designed the network too. I'm a CCNA (expired) with over 10 years networking experience.

The new positions for my future co-workers were recently released. "Familiarity with Internet Explorer" is a required 'skill'.

On Friday I got an email about whoever does the most installs in May can be entered in a drawing to win an iPad Mini. 
The job search begins tomorrow.
 
2013-04-29 12:47:46 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Red Lobster eliminated busboys


i.imgur.com

Frowns on these shenanigans.
 
2013-04-29 12:50:55 AM

the opposite of charity is justice: Red Lobster spokesperson told the Orlando Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy, once it was introduced around the country, "far more folks told us that in some instances, it really turned out to be a barrier to providing that great guest experience."

I would love to speak to the mythical customers who said waitresses spending even less time taking care of their dining needs was an improvement.

What make-believe PR nonsense.

~
~
Came here to poke fun at that steaming pile.

Either what you said^^, or the customers were asked "did you enjoy your dining experience?" and if they answered "yes" then it magically became "they like our new policies!!"

I'm not much of a diner-outer myself. Would you even NOTICE company policy of tables per server?
 
2013-04-29 12:54:55 AM

bionicjoe: My company was bought by Time Warner Cable. My job used to be a Field Engineer. I carried tools and installed equipment, but I also built and designed the network too. I'm a CCNA (expired) with over 10 years networking experience.

The new positions for my future co-workers were recently released. "Familiarity with Internet Explorer" is a required 'skill'.

On Friday I got an email about whoever does the most installs in May can be entered in a drawing to win an iPad Mini. 
The job search begins tomorrow.


You sound overqualified.  Which, of course, means expensive.
 
2013-04-29 01:00:24 AM

sirrerun: BarkingUnicorn: Red Lobster eliminated busboys

[i.imgur.com image 500x500]

Frowns on these shenanigans.

~
~
I remember Eddie Murphy referring to "bus boys" in one of his acts. "They'll fark anything that moves" or something like that.

It was an audio casette and we don't have "bus boys" in Australia and I was only a youngster. Took me a while to figure out it was probably the name of the opening act.
 
2013-04-29 01:12:03 AM

aimtastic: every server is the master of their own destiny once those customers are seated at their tables.


Except, you know, for the quality of the food.
 
2013-04-29 01:12:16 AM
'Wages are stagnant, jobs are less secure, work is more intense - it's a much tougher world,' said Paul Osterman, co-director of the MIT Sloan Institute for Work and Employment Research. 'Employers have become much more aggressive about restructuring work in ways that push for higher levels of productivity.'

Yep, this kind of sounds like the company for whom I toil. Last year was, by all accounts, a really good one. Lots of new customers added and nice big profits earned. But over the last month or so senior management has made it clear they're not particularly happy with us. We had a really cheery morning meeting in which our entire department was treated to a lecture on work habits. It began with a manager saying, "I want to talk to you today about three million minutes". Apparently there was rampant tardiness and inefficiency in running meetings. This was news to everybody in my group. It's rare to see any of my co-workers showing up late or screwing around. It's pretty much a stay at your desk kind of place. Not because somebody is telling you to but because it's always really busy.

It's been so troubling to watch. All through 2012 and into the early part of this year we were praised for our productivity and told our customer service scores (measured in a variety of ways) were incredibly good. Then, suddenly, we find ourselves being told we're stealing minutes and they're going to start monitoring every keystroke a lot more closely.

I'm sure there are always some employees floating around a large company who tend to slack off but it's pretty clear it wasn't a huge problem. Employees now generally assume the company just doesn't want to do any additional hiring to cover the increased workload that comes with adding a whole mess of new customers. So just increase the workload on the current crop.

This is to be expected in today's workplace. What's troubling is the way these things are done. It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!" At least I still like the people I see everyday. It's just that the mood has changed.
 
2013-04-29 01:21:12 AM
It's like a farmer slaughtering all his livestock or felling trees to sell for firewood.  It's devastating longterm, but the obsession with short term gain has led us  down this road.
 
2013-04-29 01:24:02 AM

DePaul: It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!"


But isn't it refreshing to truthfully know how much you are really valued?

And are you, personally, making the company millions through investment, or sales, or cooking the books,  or restructuring?  No?

Then you are suckling off the company teat.  GBTW!
 
2013-04-29 01:26:54 AM

bromah: It's like a farmer slaughtering all his livestock or felling trees to sell for firewood.  It's devastating longterm, but the obsession with short term gain has led us  down this road.


Only devastating to the livestock, or the trees.  Which are the farmer's capital.  Just like workers are the bosses capital.

The farmer gets rich and cashes out.
 
2013-04-29 01:32:56 AM
The fastest way to run a good business? Shoot anyone with an MBA who tries to work for you out the door with a catapult and just take care of your workers, focus on quality product and good customer service.

Sure, you won't make as much money with all the crazy layoffs and book cookin' removed, but you'll build a real business with a loyal customer base and make products that speak for themselves, which in turn might even be bought by your employees.
 
2013-04-29 01:35:53 AM

doglover: The fastest way to run a good business? Shoot anyone with an MBA who tries to work for you out the door with a catapult and just take care of your workers, focus on quality product and good customer service.

Sure, you won't make as much money with all the crazy layoffs and book cookin' removed, but you'll build a real business with a loyal customer base and make products that speak for themselves, which in turn might even be bought by your employees.


I wonder who took up that business plan?

i871.photobucket.com

/All joking aside, Costco is awesome
 
2013-04-29 01:36:27 AM
sendtodave DePaul: It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!"

But isn't it refreshing to truthfully know how much you are really valued?
And are you, personally, making the company millions through investment, or sales, or cooking the books, or restructuring? No?
Then you are suckling off the company teat. GBTW!


I plan to send a message to my superiors at some point this week. In it, I will express gratitude for the opportunity to serve under them. I will also beg for mercy for any minutes that I or my co-workers have stolen. I will probably do this via email. During my lunch break.
 
2013-04-29 01:40:04 AM

R.P.M.: i worked as a busboy and server in the late 90's, and there was no pool. plus, depending on how much you did helped on the cut you got (servers would take a cut of their tips and give them to the bus boys). maybe that's changed, or it's a regional thing. i know it's not likely, but i wish everyone had to work on commission.


I believe it changed when debit became the most common form of payment.
 
2013-04-29 01:48:43 AM
Circuit City found that out the hard way

Now they are no longer in business
 
2013-04-29 01:49:35 AM

Ishkur: R.P.M.: i worked as a busboy and server in the late 90's, and there was no pool. plus, depending on how much you did helped on the cut you got (servers would take a cut of their tips and give them to the bus boys). maybe that's changed, or it's a regional thing. i know it's not likely, but i wish everyone had to work on commission.

I believe it changed when debit became the most common form of payment.


ah! that would explain a lot. and make me feel old. but now i can say, "i remember when we paid cash for tips, and liked it!"  thanks for the...tip <badum bump> ...ok, i'll go now.
 
2013-04-29 01:56:39 AM

cman: Circuit City found that out the hard way

Now they are no longer in business


And the guys that facilitated their exit made millions in bonuses.

Working as intended.
 
2013-04-29 01:57:15 AM

DePaul:This is to be expected in today's workplace. What's troubling is the way these things are done. It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!" At least I still like the people I see everyday. It's just that the mood has changed.

Yep, I look at how your entry-level white collar workers are treated these days and I give thanks I entered the labor market a decade ago. You can see this attitude in this very thread:

RabidJade: We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.


You have to be a special kind of corporate shill to look at the facts (that modern day employees work longer hours, are better educated, are more productive and yet still earn less (adjusting for inflation) and are treated worse (less benefits, more work) than their parent's generation were at the same job) and come to the conclusion that it HAS to be because they're all slackers and malcontents.

/And they're more likely to get outsourced/downsized.
//And there's far less room for advancement due to boomers not retiring.
///AND they're stuck with absurd student debt many will never manage to pay off.
 
2013-04-29 02:10:51 AM

Aar1012: You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it


Who cares? The folks that wanted the money got the money, and as we've now made "Fark You, Got Mine!" practically a national axiom, in everything from business to politics to technology, it worked entirely as intended.

The rich got richer, the poor got poorer, the powerful received more power, the meek get screwed. It's the American way!
 
2013-04-29 02:21:55 AM
I'm going to lay out the dumbest apt analogy you're going to read all day.

Business practices like cutting staff and offshoring employees are like storage unit auctions. These were tricks used by those in the know to make little changes that didn't upset the whole economy, then some consultants started shouting it from the rooftops, like those damned storage unit auction shows. And now everyone wants in on the action. So what should have been the harmless trick of having your corporate switchboard answered by someone in low wage backwater America turns into everyone having their call centers in India. Just like how auctions that used to have 5 people show up now have hundreds and the bidding is ten times the reasonable.

If you're about to embark on mimicking something you're seeing everyone else do, think twice before doing it.

And that whole JCP thing... I don't think it was about efficiency, it was about getting past the cynical Apple purchaser response to all that advertising. "I'll only go if it's on sale, which it probably will be this weekend." And that became the norm. There's something from psychology that'll make a person act to get something if it seems perishable. The people really susceptible to that phenomenon made up a lot of their shopper base.

What they really needed was a used car dealer.
 
2013-04-29 02:31:28 AM

sendtodave: cman: Circuit City found that out the hard way

Now they are no longer in business

And the guys that facilitated their exit made millions in bonuses.

Working as intended.


Not really

They would have made more in bonuses if their profits were better. They had an incentive to increase their profits and they pissed it away by making terrible business decisions.

Putting the blame of firing all those workers as the sole reason of their demise is also a bit wrong.

They thought that improving the bottom line was the biggest necessity. This in normal economic times would not have killed a billion dollar company. However, the great recession started, and terrible sales from firing people who knew how to sell and replacing them with newbs went completely in the shiatter.

Plus that and the terrible PR disaster on how they handled it did them no favors.
 
2013-04-29 02:43:46 AM
Well all I can say is go to www.glassdoor.com . I use this before I invest in company or work as a consultant for said company.
 
2013-04-29 03:09:44 AM
At some point, however, increasing the workload on employees backfires. The burden becomes too much for workers to bear, and when employees are overwhelmed and can't keep up with their duties, it's just plain bad for business.

VINDICATED!

Damn! I've been pointing that out for over 20 years and been ignored. Gosh knows how many FARKers have said the same thing, and been ignored.

The last company I worked for pushed it's employees so hard that, in Florida alone, in a 10 year period, they went through 25 sub contractors, over 2000 employees and three years after I left, they went belly up. DHL took over, and lost it, when they hired subcontractors who required the individual drivers to buy and own their own trucks -- per corporate specification and pay their own insurance and buy their own gas.

I like to shop at Winn Dixie, but changes have hit the store hard. To begin with, Winn Dixie doesn't allow store managers to order for their stores depending o0n the customers they serve. The Home Office does the ordering based on computer logged inventory. So, if you can't find, say, Campbell's Pea soup and you and others have requested it, blame it on the home office. Their policy basically ignores the store managers awareness of his customers needs.

So you go down the street to Publix, buy your Pea Soup and discover that they periodically have some outstanding deals on bulk beef -- better and cheaper than beef at Winn Dixie. So, you start splitting your purchases. (Winn Dixie offers a membership card service with good discounts and a great gas incentive. Publix doesn't.)

When I worked at a hospital, things were great, until they changed management. The first thing the new management did was try and segregate the professionals and non-professionals. (Pretty much a med tech like me was not supposed to have lunch or take a break with an RN.) Then they fired a bunch of staff, never replaced them and dumped their workload on those remaining. They didn't even bother to increase pay to cover the additional work. They developed a complicated way of paying overtime, meaning if you worked it, you very likely would only get straight pay.

The excellent care in the hospital started nose diving. At one time they decided that 4 year RNs were better than 2 year, so they could be charge nurses on the floors. RN with a 2 year degree would be regulated to doing much more floor work, along side the LPNs and medical aids. Then they decided the LPNs were barely nurses at all, cut their pay and regulated them mainly to nursing assistant work. They fired skilled nursing assistants and cut the staff down along with the pay, since they had nurses doing the assistants work anyhow.

Bad idea.

Nurses went on strike. Many quit. LPNs turned out to be vital after all, especially when they started going elsewhere to work and the service at the hospital became so bad that it slid from the number one spot on the coast, to one of the least desired to go to. Mistakes and corresponding lawsuits soared.

Nearly 30 years later and the hospital is still trying to recover, though they still over work their staff.

I've been through a lot of businesses and seen what happens when you treat good employees like shiat. For one thing, the incidents of employee theft just soars. Plus, employees are less likely to watch out for the usual thieves or to take action when they spot one.

We have an airplane company here making small, personal craft. When they started cracking down, employees damaged expensive machinery, one started using company materials to start and supply his home made belt buckle business (they were darn good) and theft soared.

One customer showed up to take possession of his new, expensive aircraft and when it wouldn't start, the mechanics opened up the engine. They found a pack of cigarettes in a piston cylinder.

One guy stole enough parts to nearly build his own aircraft -- but tossed them in the main canal by the factory. He just wanted to make a point -- with close to $100,000 in high end electronics and precision parts.

It always takes decades for bad ideas in business to be corrected.

Like paying CEOs enormous salaries while laying off 1/4 of the work force.

BTW. The Yuppies encouraged this attitude by mainly investing in companies with high profits -- which forced other companies to concentrate on bigger profits, which led to outsourcing, early retirement and layoffs. Don't forget the era of hostile takeovers, mainly designed to close a company, sell off it's stock and supplies, sell off the land and buildings and make a profit.

As one corporate executive said to me 'It's not personal. It's just business.'
 
2013-04-29 04:22:47 AM
A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?
 
2013-04-29 04:43:10 AM

padraig: A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?


"Uh, yeah. Well, it's like, you know, the four table policy is like, totally superior to the three table policy, 'cause it's like, more tables man. And more tables means I don't have to wait as long for muh cheese biscuits. What? Sure, I'll take a survey, man."
 
2013-04-29 05:07:34 AM

Bondith: soia: Sergeant Grumbles: gingerjet: They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

The Americans with advanced degrees don't want you for a boss, and the H1B's have no choice but to kiss your ass.

The U.S. has a surplus of skilled workers, so anything you say beyond "I don't want to pay for them." is a lie.

What is considered a skilled worker these days?  Been looking for "skilled" workers for 4 years now and it seems that they don't exist.  Was/Am even willing to train, but i guess people don't see the skill in the work that i do.

What is it that you do?



I'm curious, too, especially since soia is in the city... >__>
 
2013-04-29 05:16:50 AM

DrPainMD: [farm4.staticflickr.com image 200x150]
"Management decisions often involve trial and error."


LOL you think this is just a case of trial and error
 
2013-04-29 05:17:36 AM

padraig: A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?


Because the execs who came up with the policy likely have eaten at a Red Lobster at least once in their lives, technically making them customers
 
2013-04-29 05:18:44 AM
More to the point.... who the fark eats at Red Lobster anyway?  I can understand maybe the center of the country where there is no sea to easily get seafood.  But I live in the Gulf south and I'll be damned if the flipping Red Lobster is not packed every farking day.  What the fark?
 
2013-04-29 05:20:34 AM

wingnut396: More to the point.... who the fark eats at Red Lobster anyway?  I can understand maybe the center of the country where there is no sea to easily get seafood.  But I live in the Gulf south and I'll be damned if the flipping Red Lobster is not packed every farking day.  What the fark?


I had their cheddar biscuits once.  They were unremarkable.

In fact the entire meal was blandiose.

Except for the lobster pizza.  That was yummy.
 
2013-04-29 05:51:42 AM
This is good news.
 
2013-04-29 06:07:56 AM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: In fact the entire meal was blandiose.


blandiose

This word is so great, I have to add it to my dictionnary of most cromulent words.
 
2013-04-29 06:15:40 AM

padraig: The All-Powerful Atheismo: In fact the entire meal was blandiose.

blandiose

This word is so great, I have to add it to my dictionnary of most cromulent words.


That's an Atheismo original AFAIK
 
2013-04-29 07:00:43 AM

Gunther: DePaul:This is to be expected in today's workplace. What's troubling is the way these things are done. It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!" At least I still like the people I see everyday. It's just that the mood has changed.

Yep, I look at how your entry-level white collar workers are treated these days and I give thanks I entered the labor market a decade ago. You can see this attitude in this very thread:

RabidJade: We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.

You have to be a special kind of corporate shill to look at the facts (that modern day employees work longer hours, are better educated, are more productive and yet still earn less (adjusting for inflation) and are treated worse (less benefits, more work) than their parent's generation were at the same job) and come to the conclusion that it HAS to be because they're all slackers and malcontents.


Or compare them with most other countries around the world. Here (UK) we get four weeks holiday a year minimum from day one, and everyone takes every day, and generally work 39 hours a week or maybe a bit over. Alan Sugar (who is the boss on The Apprentice UK, but has never gone bankrupt unlike Donald) says that at his company anyone staying at their desk even a minute after six PM would get strange looks, and the feeling would probably be that he can't be that good if he can't get the job done done in regular hours. That's probably a bit extreme, and there certainly are some people who work long hours, but generally people work the official hours and then leave. The "cut staff and get everyone left to take up the slack" attitude does happen here but again generally within regular hours.
We also have laws against unfair dismissal, free healthcare (so no worries about losing your job will lead to losing your healthcare. In fact it becomes cheaper, prescriptions which cost about $12 per course when you're employed are generally free if you are unemployed) and no drug tests etc.
And yet we have quite a few world class companies who do quite well.
 
2013-04-29 07:07:55 AM

sendtodave: DePaul: It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!"

But isn't it refreshing to truthfully know how much you are really valued?

And are you, personally, making the company millions through investment, or sales, or cooking the books,  or restructuring?  No?

Then you are suckling off the company teat.  GBTW!


Christ, what an asshole!

Oh, and *plonk*
 
2013-04-29 07:18:21 AM
Farking geniuses, this lot.

Forty years of "doing more with less" is the real reason our economy is farked.

Don't let anyone tell you differently.
 
2013-04-29 07:18:53 AM

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


Well, that explains why my husband keeps getting aggressively recruited... they want some white people diversity. Ha. Good to know. I refuse to move to California though. His company doesn't seem to have a problem finding native-born software engineers.... and so long as you don't mind the stock price sucking sometimes because wall street thinks they "overspend on labor", it's a great company to work for. Sense a theme, there?

We're all part of the problem though... when's the last time any of us that have retirement plans pressured the people running them to invest in quality instead of a quick buck?
 
2013-04-29 07:36:37 AM
American Express just did this in travel services and other client facing divisions.

in January, 3000 were fired. another 2500 were fired over the next couple of months.

many that were not fired were demoted: managers became senior analysts, VPs became managers. Responsibilities remained the same of course, they just got 20% or greater salary cuts.

/have friends at Amex that survived that mess.
 
2013-04-29 07:41:51 AM

Big Ramifications: sirrerun: BarkingUnicorn: Red Lobster eliminated busboys

[i.imgur.com image 500x500]

Frowns on these shenanigans.
~
~
I remember Eddie Murphy referring to "bus boys" in one of his acts. "They'll fark anything that moves" or something like that.

It was an audio casette and we don't have "bus boys" in Australia and I was only a youngster. Took me a while to figure out it was probably the name of the opening act.


"Delirious" show, 1983.  Back when he was funny.  The whole show is on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJPUJvV-Ow0
 
2013-04-29 07:47:33 AM

padraig: A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?


Free meal.  You ever criticize your in-laws' Thanksgiving dinner to their faces?
 
2013-04-29 07:58:41 AM

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


So...  Um where does one send a resume to?  Mrs. Stone and I and the pebbles have had parts of CA (including your area in your profile) on the short list for a while now.
 
2013-04-29 08:34:34 AM

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


You probably underpay, most companies do.
 
2013-04-29 08:51:52 AM

padraig: A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?


Glad I'm not the only one that thought this. I dont know, give a rats ass about, how many tables my server is handling.  All I see is the service I get.  I suspect they're extrapolating data out from something like "Well, no customers are complaining, so they must like it"
 
2013-04-29 09:36:28 AM

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


People talk. No one but those with no choice applies for jobs at your company because word has gotten around that you run a slave labor shop. You and gingerjet better remember who is usually first up against the wall when the people get fed up with abusers who blame the victims. Enjoy being forever clueless as to why your competitors are able to find  good people while you can only find people who will work for you because otherwise they'll be deported.
 
2013-04-29 09:37:49 AM
There's a whole lotta speculation and inference in that article, and not much hard data. Businesses have problems for many reasons, and finding some that also just so happen to have made staffing changes about the same time wouldn't be tough. Not saying it couldn't be responsible, but use some data to prove it, not a series of anecdotes.
 
2013-04-29 10:00:41 AM

EngineerAU:  No one but those with no choice applies for jobs at your company because word has gotten around that you run a slave labor shop.


It's so hard to find good house nigras these days.
 
2013-04-29 10:33:00 AM
Businesses are learning that by downsizing the workforce they are, in effect, destroying their bottom line

Wait.  What businesses are learning that?  None that I've seen.
 
2013-04-29 10:53:10 AM

lilbjorn: Businesses are learning that by downsizing the workforce they are, in effect, destroying their bottom line

Wait.  What businesses are learning that?  None that I've seen.


well, with the exception of strip joints and fast food places, businesses are learning downsizing is bad....
 
2013-04-29 10:56:01 AM

jso2897: Summoner101: Businesses are learning?

I highly doubt that.

This - Malaysian monkey trap. you can't change primate behavior. the wealthy and powerful know exactly how they caused the last great depression, and they are going to cause another one by doing the exact same things, because they literally cannot stop themselves - because they are apes, like the rest of us.
The Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch can no more stop themselves than a crack-addicted ghetto-rat can stop himself from robbing a liquor store. It's ape programming.


Get your hands off me you damned dirty ape.
 
2013-04-29 11:03:25 AM

Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.


Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.
 
2013-04-29 11:06:16 AM

dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.


The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.
 
2013-04-29 11:10:03 AM

cman: dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.


My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.
 
2013-04-29 11:24:03 AM

Girion47: cman: dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.


If the issue is lack of applications, let alone hired, then it sounds like the company itself is at fault. Every time this comes up here on Fark, and it does often, they never seem to link to a job listing despite it being free publicity to get some applicants. For all we know they're looking for somebody with 10 years experience for an entry level position/salary in the middle of nowhere with the only way you would know about the opening is if you were related to somebody in HR.
 
2013-04-29 11:32:06 AM

sendtodave: Heraclitus: You really believe its about the bottom line?

its about control.

Always has been.

/ If you dont belong to a Union, you deserve what you get.

When someone asks you what you do, and you respond with your profession (because we are what we do), do you add the caveat that you actively try to make yourself less valuable to your employer?

It's simple.  The reason anyone has a job is to make money for the bosses.  And the more money they make for the bosses, the more valuable they are.  Conversly, the more money they take from their bosses, the less valuable they are.

"Oh!  But I am skilled!"

I have two guys making widgets.  One is skilled, and makes $2 worth of widgets.  I pay him $1.50 for his skill.  The other is not skilled, and makes only $1 worth of widgets.  I only pay him $.50.  Who makes me more money?

So, I hire 20 of the unskilled guys, which makes me $10 in widgets, and saves me $20 in labor cost over hiring skilled workers!  And then, when I fire them all, I save another $10 in labor cost, which is as much at my product is worth!

Cha-ching! Pass go, collect $200M bonus!

Dig a whole, fill it up.  With workers.


The plant on the other hand loses $200 dollars in labor costs when the final analysis comes in, because the skilled guys knew how to setup and tear down the machines. They knew to change the oil every 20 hours, and kept the line going. The unskilled guys they burned up the five most expensive machines in the plant costing 30 hours of down time and large outlays in repair and maintenance.
 
2013-04-29 11:34:04 AM

cman: Circuit City found that out the hard way

Now they are no longer in business


Well that and the brilliant decision: "Ehh... home appliances are kind of a pain to deal with. They take up a lot of floor space. There is a lot of competition.  So, we're going to stop selling them."  mere MONTHS before the beginning of a HUGE housing boom.
 
2013-04-29 11:35:21 AM

gingerjet: Fark Me To Tears: * - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.

Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts.  They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude


Nope, the good ones have jobs. You aren't offering a salary that attracts them. You are getting what you pay for.
 
2013-04-29 11:43:12 AM
I remember seeing a rather prophetic cartoon, way back in the sixties. A businessman is standing on a podium, overlooking a factory floor occupied entirely by robotic machines. Behind him, on the wall, is a "Sales" chart with the line going down at a sharp angle. There is a thought balloon over his head, and he is thinking: "Hmm. I wonder - if I paid these things a salary, would they buy any of the stuff we make?"
 
2013-04-29 11:46:28 AM

Flint Ironstag: Gunther: DePaul:This is to be expected in today's workplace. What's troubling is the way these things are done. It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!" At least I still like the people I see everyday. It's just that the mood has changed.

Yep, I look at how your entry-level white collar workers are treated these days and I give thanks I entered the labor market a decade ago. You can see this attitude in this very thread:

RabidJade: We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.

You have to be a special kind of corporate shill to look at the facts (that modern day employees work longer hours, are better educated, are more productive and yet still earn less (adjusting for inflation) and are treated worse (less benefits, more work) than their parent's generation were at the same job) and come to the conclusion that it HAS to be because they're all slackers and malcontents.

Or compare them with most other countries around the world. Here (UK) we get four weeks holiday a year minimum from day one, and everyone takes every day, and generally work 39 hours a week or maybe a bit over. Alan Sugar (who is the boss on The Apprentice UK, but has never gone bankrupt unlike Donald) says that at his company anyone staying at their desk even a minute after six PM would get strange looks, and the feeling would probably be that he can't be that good if he can't get the job done done in regular hours. That's probably a bit extreme, and there certainly are some people who work long hours, but generally people work the official hours and then leave. The "cut staff and get everyone left to take up the slack" attitude does happen here but again generally within regular hours.
We also have laws against unfair dismissal, free healthcare (so no worries about losing yo ...


I read this whole post in a British accent while imagining you in a 3 piece suit holding an umbrella while typing it (Ala Patrick Macnee from the Avengers).  I have no idea why I did it, but it fit the whole post perfectly.
 
2013-04-29 11:56:59 AM

Slaves2Darkness: The plant on the other hand loses $200 dollars in labor costs when the final analysis comes in, because the skilled guys knew how to setup and tear down the machines. They knew to change the oil every 20 hours, and kept the line going. The unskilled guys they burned up the five most expensive machines in the plant costing 30 hours of down time and large outlays in repair and maintenance.


Those machines only exist to be sold for pennies on the dollar anyway.
 
2013-04-29 12:09:48 PM

Saners: Girion47: cman: dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.

If the issue is lack of applications, let alone hired, then it sounds like the company itself is at fault. Every time this comes up here on Fark, and it does often, they never seem to link to a job listing despite it being free publicity to get some applicants. For all we know they're looking for somebody with 10 years experience for an entry level position/salary in the middle of nowhere with the only way you would know about the opening is if you were related to somebody in HR.


It's not a lack of applications that's the issue, it's that the people he pursues usually want more than he's willing to pay.  I feel like the boomer generation doesn't understand how much money some of these positions NEED to pay, they hear a number that would have been astronomical in their 20's and get all pissy and call the younger people "entitled" when all we really want is a livable wage.  Yes the numbers are higher, but inflation happened.  Even in my field I find companies are offering mid-50's for someone with 5-10 years experience and a professional certification.   That's insulting 5-10 alone should be commanding 70's-80's and a CSP or CIH easily is worth 6 figures.   This downturn has been horrible as far as companies lowering wage offers and expecting you to be grateful.
 
2013-04-29 12:11:48 PM
I'm not an executive, but I work on the executive floor.  Every day I overhear impromptu meetings about how to reduce "employee expense.". Cutting benefits, raising insurance deductibles, reducing staff through attrition, etc, etc.

Yet not 30 minutes later I overhear other conversations where the execs are biatching about how much it costs to store their private planes, or moor the fishing yacht, or the got-damned greens fees at the local club.

These people would be genuinely shocked, SHOCKED, if there were ever a popular uprising.
 
2013-04-29 12:12:56 PM
 The hell you say?

Unemployed people can't buy your crap? Hmm, who knew?
Of course the "Job Creators" have a special plan  for this, they'll just fire all American employees and replace them with people making 35 cent a day. They're hoping that the person living hand to mouth will pick up the slack for those "over paid" Americans.

Hypnozombie
/Best and brightest, Masters of Industry my ass.
//drooling vegetables would be more accurate
 
2013-04-29 12:19:59 PM

Girion47: I feel like the boomer generation doesn't understand how much money some of these positions NEED to pay, they hear a number that would have been astronomical in their 20's and get all pissy and call the younger people "entitled" when all we really want is a livable wage.


I have actually heard how entitled this generation is because $7.25 for minimum wage is more than what someone with a college degree made in the 70's, and without a hint of irony.
 
2013-04-29 12:49:53 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: Girion47: I feel like the boomer generation doesn't understand how much money some of these positions NEED to pay, they hear a number that would have been astronomical in their 20's and get all pissy and call the younger people "entitled" when all we really want is a livable wage.

I have actually heard how entitled this generation is because $7.25 for minimum wage is more than what someone with a college degree made in the 70's, and without a hint of irony.


Yes please tell me how entitled I am when jobs in the 70's would allow a family of four to survive on one income with 2 cars, a house, a summer house on a lake and a boat could be had by someone without a college degree.    I'm ready to feel guilty about wanting to be able to afford one mortgage without kids.
 
2013-04-29 01:02:14 PM

zenobia: sendtodave: Thingster: Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.

As if you still need to actually make products to make money.  This ain't 1913, pal.  Times change.  If your business actually needs real products for real customers, you're in the wrong business.

Labor was only marginally useful in making money back then.  Now, it is pretty much unnecessary, 'cept for Red Lobster.

Absolutely. Check the lists of richest people. I believe moving-money-around is the only profitable business left. Making things costs too much.




Plus there is that pesky U.C.C..
 
2013-04-29 01:20:15 PM

Girion47: Yes please tell me how entitled I am when jobs in the 70's would allow a family of four to survive on one income with 2 cars, a house, a summer house on a lake and a boat could be had by someone without a college degree. I'm ready to feel guilty about wanting to be able to afford one mortgage without kids.


CSB Time:

While I was in college (mid 2000s), my course adviser recommended I study abroad. She said it would be a great experience and possibly open up career opportunities in other countries. The cost? $9000 on top of the $6000 in tuition and fees I was already paying. I asked her where the flying hell I was supposed to get the money for that. Her exact words were "Why don't you get a summer job?"
I politely declined, but probably could have driven my fist through her face if anger had outweighed absolute shock.
I worked every single semester of my college career, and it was never enough to do more than pay rent, utilities, and gorge on Mac n Cheese.
I've always wanted to know what was running through her head. Did she think there was a job I could get that paid $3000/month? Did the number attached not register with her as being high, despite more than doubling the cost of a semester?
It has to be some kind of generational gap. My FiL is the same way. Doesn't understand why I don't have a house, a new car, or provided him with grandchildren. He graduated debt free in 1976, paid for working summers in a warehouse. Paid off his $40K house before 1980 and then had two kids, all on one income. Thinks of my $40K in loans to pay for college as some kind of moral failing that I can make up for by working harder. He "did" it, why can't I?
 
2013-04-29 01:29:53 PM

tdyak: Flint Ironstag: Gunther: DePaul:This is to be expected in today's workplace. What's troubling is the way these things are done. It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!" At least I still like the people I see everyday. It's just that the mood has changed.

Yep, I look at how your entry-level white collar workers are treated these days and I give thanks I entered the labor market a decade ago. You can see this attitude in this very thread:

RabidJade: We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.

You have to be a special kind of corporate shill to look at the facts (that modern day employees work longer hours, are better educated, are more productive and yet still earn less (adjusting for inflation) and are treated worse (less benefits, more work) than their parent's generation were at the same job) and come to the conclusion that it HAS to be because they're all slackers and malcontents.

Or compare them with most other countries around the world. Here (UK) we get four weeks holiday a year minimum from day one, and everyone takes every day, and generally work 39 hours a week or maybe a bit over. Alan Sugar (who is the boss on The Apprentice UK, but has never gone bankrupt unlike Donald) says that at his company anyone staying at their desk even a minute after six PM would get strange looks, and the feeling would probably be that he can't be that good if he can't get the job done done in regular hours. That's probably a bit extreme, and there certainly are some people who work long hours, but generally people work the official hours and then leave. The "cut staff and get everyone left to take up the slack" attitude does happen here but again generally within regular hours.
We also have laws against unfair dismissal, free healthcare (so no worries ...


I read this whole post in a British accent while imagining you in a 3 piece suit holding an umbrella while typing it (Ala Patrick Macnee from the Avengers).  I have no idea why I did it, but it fit the whole post perfectly.


For that I knock you on the head with my umbrella while Purdy kicks you in the nuts.  Gambit then turns up after you're on the ground unconscious.

/Fun fact, Patrick Mcnee is still alive.
//Amazing but true fact, he owes my Dad six dollars. Can't remember what for but they slightly knew each other in Canada  just after the war and my father lent him six dollars..
///I also posted a Mcnee pic in the "Car found up a tree" thread earlier today, and it looks like it actually was obscure.
 
2013-04-29 02:30:42 PM
deadwildroses.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-29 03:50:59 PM
Girion47:
This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.


Then maybe he should try hiring people who are trainable, and not just concentrate on the already trained. From your description he seems to have fallen into the trap of "The Purple Squirrel", a trap too many employers have succumbed to as the Great Recession wears on. They chase after people who are already working and already trained, seeking that perfect employee they think won't cost them anything.

What they fail to see is that this "Purple Squirrel" will cost them a lot more than they imagined, simply because they forget one thing - if this person jumped from where they were to work for you, then there's a better than good chance that they will jump somewhere else when someone offers them even more money and benefits, possibly in the middle of a project. They will ask for pay and benefits higher than what they are currently receiving (as they should), they will hold no loyalty to you or your company (as they shouldn't), and they will be constantly on the lookout, along with recruiters, for the Bigger Better Deal (because they can).

The lack of benefits he is able to offer will not matter to anyone looking to get their foot in the door, and your father in law will benefit from having employees who can do things the way he needs them done, and not the way the employee thinks they should be done (cuz I gots all dat 'sperience, nowmsayin'?).

There are probably plenty of good people he could hire... if he would get his head out and expand his vision.
 
2013-04-29 04:09:55 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: Girion47: Yes please tell me how entitled I am when jobs in the 70's would allow a family of four to survive on one income with 2 cars, a house, a summer house on a lake and a boat could be had by someone without a college degree. I'm ready to feel guilty about wanting to be able to afford one mortgage without kids.

CSB Time:

While I was in college (mid 2000s), my course adviser recommended I study abroad. She said it would be a great experience and possibly open up career opportunities in other countries. The cost? $9000 on top of the $6000 in tuition and fees I was already paying. I asked her where the flying hell I was supposed to get the money for that. Her exact words were "Why don't you get a summer job?"
I politely declined, but probably could have driven my fist through her face if anger had outweighed absolute shock.
I worked every single semester of my college career, and it was never enough to do more than pay rent, utilities, and gorge on Mac n Cheese.
I've always wanted to know what was running through her head. Did she think there was a job I could get that paid $3000/month? Did the number attached not register with her as being high, despite more than doubling the cost of a semester?
It has to be some kind of generational gap. My FiL is the same way. Doesn't understand why I don't have a house, a new car, or provided him with grandchildren. He graduated debt free in 1976, paid for working summers in a warehouse. Paid off his $40K house before 1980 and then had two kids, all on one income. Thinks of my $40K in loans to pay for college as some kind of moral failing that I can make up for by working harder. He "did" it, why can't I?


My Dad is the same.

What is it with angry old white guys and not being able to relate to people?
 
2013-04-29 04:38:40 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Fire the experienced help, hire schlubs/Inidans/Messicans at 1/3 the cost.  Bottom line is pretty for 1 quarter. Get bonus, Quit. Bazinga!

Hate management.  No better than leeches in the IT worlld.


Yep. That or don't hire at all so the remaining workers are doing the jobs of two or three people. All the while hoarding the cash.
 
2013-04-29 04:39:29 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: Girion47: Yes please tell me how entitled I am when jobs in the 70's would allow a family of four to survive on one income with 2 cars, a house, a summer house on a lake and a boat could be had by someone without a college degree. I'm ready to feel guilty about wanting to be able to afford one mortgage without kids.

CSB Time:

While I was in college (mid 2000s), my course adviser recommended I study abroad. She said it would be a great experience and possibly open up career opportunities in other countries. The cost? $9000 on top of the $6000 in tuition and fees I was already paying. I asked her where the flying hell I was supposed to get the money for that. Her exact words were "Why don't you get a summer job?"
I politely declined, but probably could have driven my fist through her face if anger had outweighed absolute shock.
I worked every single semester of my college career, and it was never enough to do more than pay rent, utilities, and gorge on Mac n Cheese.
I've always wanted to know what was running through her head. Did she think there was a job I could get that paid $3000/month? Did the number attached not register with her as being high, despite more than doubling the cost of a semester?
It has to be some kind of generational gap. My FiL is the same way. Doesn't understand why I don't have a house, a new car, or provided him with grandchildren. He graduated debt free in 1976, paid for working summers in a warehouse. Paid off his $40K house before 1980 and then had two kids, all on one income. Thinks of my $40K in loans to pay for college as some kind of moral failing that I can make up for by working harder. He "did" it, why can't I?


This reminds me of another thread where rich kids have much better test scores (no shiat).

I had a guidance counselor suggest that I go to the PA governor's summer school, even though it's free my parents would have to pay for transportation, a residence deposit, and I would have to take time off from my job.

I told her that my family needed me to work 40 hours during the summer so we could afford my Dad's medication and food she gave me a look like I had 2 heads.

/Guidance Counselors are useless
 
2013-04-29 06:28:15 PM

rewind2846: Girion47:
This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.

Then maybe he should try hiring people who are trainable, and not just concentrate on the already trained. From your description he seems to have fallen into the trap of "The Purple Squirrel", a trap too many employers have succumbed to as the Great Recession wears on. They chase after people who are already working and already trained, seeking that perfect employee they think won't cost them anything.

What they fail to see is that this "Purple Squirrel" will cost them a lot more than they imagined, simply because they forget one thing - if this person jumped from where they were to work for you, then there's a better than good chance that they will jump somewhere else when someone offers them even more money and benefits, possibly in the middle of a project. They will ask for pay and benefits higher than what they are currently receiving (as they should), they will hold no loyalty to you or your company (as they shouldn't), and they will be constantly on the l ...


I've actually been getting him to do that.   It isn't that he listens to me, but I put the idea in my wife's head, and then she says something to him, and then a few months later he does it as if it's his own idea.   I feel like I'm helping the younger generation get hired via this method.  go me!
 
2013-04-29 08:06:51 PM

johnny_vegas: lilbjorn: Businesses are learning that by downsizing the workforce they are, in effect, destroying their bottom line

Wait.  What businesses are learning that?  None that I've seen.

well, with the exception of strip joints and fast food places, businesses are learning downsizing is bad....


Er, strip clubs that eschew downsizing end up with fat strippers and skinny profits.
 
2013-04-29 11:17:27 PM

Girion47: rewind2846: Girion47:
This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.

Then maybe he should try hiring people who are trainable, and not just concentrate on the already trained. From your description he seems to have fallen into the trap of "The Purple Squirrel", a trap too many employers have succumbed to as the Great Recession wears on. They chase after people who are already working and already trained, seeking that perfect employee they think won't cost them anything.

What they fail to see is that this "Purple Squirrel" will cost them a lot more than they imagined, simply because they forget one thing - if this person jumped from where they were to work for you, then there's a better than good chance that they will jump somewhere else when someone offers them even more money and benefits, possibly in the middle of a project. They will ask for pay and benefits higher than what they are currently receiving (as they should), they will hold no loyalty to you or your company (as they shouldn't), and they will be constan ...


Is your wife my sister. I have to do the same thing to my Dad.

Why does it always have to be there idea.
 
2013-04-30 05:05:45 AM

shortymac: Sergeant Grumbles: Girion47: Yes please tell me how entitled I am when jobs in the 70's would allow a family of four to survive on one income with 2 cars, a house, a summer house on a lake and a boat could be had by someone without a college degree. I'm ready to feel guilty about wanting to be able to afford one mortgage without kids.

CSB Time:

While I was in college (mid 2000s), my course adviser recommended I study abroad. She said it would be a great experience and possibly open up career opportunities in other countries. The cost? $9000 on top of the $6000 in tuition and fees I was already paying. I asked her where the flying hell I was supposed to get the money for that. Her exact words were "Why don't you get a summer job?"
I politely declined, but probably could have driven my fist through her face if anger had outweighed absolute shock.
I worked every single semester of my college career, and it was never enough to do more than pay rent, utilities, and gorge on Mac n Cheese.
I've always wanted to know what was running through her head. Did she think there was a job I could get that paid $3000/month? Did the number attached not register with her as being high, despite more than doubling the cost of a semester?
It has to be some kind of generational gap. My FiL is the same way. Doesn't understand why I don't have a house, a new car, or provided him with grandchildren. He graduated debt free in 1976, paid for working summers in a warehouse. Paid off his $40K house before 1980 and then had two kids, all on one income. Thinks of my $40K in loans to pay for college as some kind of moral failing that I can make up for by working harder. He "did" it, why can't I?

My Dad is the same.

What is it with angry old white guys and not being able to relate to people?


Your time is coming, youngin...
 
2013-04-30 06:23:14 AM
They also treat their people like cr*p.  I worked at a company, (worked harder than I ever had, have 26 years expirence), had the CIO sneak around and peek over cube walls.  While he did this, his manager would make sexual jokes in meetings and once called the entire department f*****g incompetent.  One day I just had enough and quit.  This was about 6 weeks before a deadline that their biggest customer Int*l demanded we meet.

Last time I talked the people that stayed, (incompetent, only kidding), were working 12 hours a day and six days a week.  I was treated so bad, I recieved unemployment for quitting.

/Thinking about an EEOC complaint just to cost them money.
 
2013-04-30 08:26:44 AM

Girion47: I've actually been getting him to do that. It isn't that he listens to me, but I put the idea in my wife's head, and then she says something to him, and then a few months later he does it as if it's his own idea. I feel like I'm helping the younger generation get hired via this method. go me!


There's a reason I have you favorited.
 
Displayed 162 of 162 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report