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(Time)   Businesses are learning that by downsizing the workforce they are, in effect, destroying their bottom line   (business.time.com) divider line 162
    More: Ironic, layoffs, MIT Sloan, Red Lobster, Domino's Pizza, morale, businesses  
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5981 clicks; posted to Business » on 28 Apr 2013 at 8:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-29 01:56:39 AM

cman: Circuit City found that out the hard way

Now they are no longer in business


And the guys that facilitated their exit made millions in bonuses.

Working as intended.
 
2013-04-29 01:57:15 AM

DePaul:This is to be expected in today's workplace. What's troubling is the way these things are done. It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!" At least I still like the people I see everyday. It's just that the mood has changed.

Yep, I look at how your entry-level white collar workers are treated these days and I give thanks I entered the labor market a decade ago. You can see this attitude in this very thread:

RabidJade: We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.


You have to be a special kind of corporate shill to look at the facts (that modern day employees work longer hours, are better educated, are more productive and yet still earn less (adjusting for inflation) and are treated worse (less benefits, more work) than their parent's generation were at the same job) and come to the conclusion that it HAS to be because they're all slackers and malcontents.

/And they're more likely to get outsourced/downsized.
//And there's far less room for advancement due to boomers not retiring.
///AND they're stuck with absurd student debt many will never manage to pay off.
 
2013-04-29 02:10:51 AM

Aar1012: You mean that cutting long term investments (a loyal and competent work force) in favor of short term gains (boost in profit and budget) would backfire!?

Shocked...you can color me it


Who cares? The folks that wanted the money got the money, and as we've now made "Fark You, Got Mine!" practically a national axiom, in everything from business to politics to technology, it worked entirely as intended.

The rich got richer, the poor got poorer, the powerful received more power, the meek get screwed. It's the American way!
 
2013-04-29 02:21:55 AM
I'm going to lay out the dumbest apt analogy you're going to read all day.

Business practices like cutting staff and offshoring employees are like storage unit auctions. These were tricks used by those in the know to make little changes that didn't upset the whole economy, then some consultants started shouting it from the rooftops, like those damned storage unit auction shows. And now everyone wants in on the action. So what should have been the harmless trick of having your corporate switchboard answered by someone in low wage backwater America turns into everyone having their call centers in India. Just like how auctions that used to have 5 people show up now have hundreds and the bidding is ten times the reasonable.

If you're about to embark on mimicking something you're seeing everyone else do, think twice before doing it.

And that whole JCP thing... I don't think it was about efficiency, it was about getting past the cynical Apple purchaser response to all that advertising. "I'll only go if it's on sale, which it probably will be this weekend." And that became the norm. There's something from psychology that'll make a person act to get something if it seems perishable. The people really susceptible to that phenomenon made up a lot of their shopper base.

What they really needed was a used car dealer.
 
2013-04-29 02:31:28 AM

sendtodave: cman: Circuit City found that out the hard way

Now they are no longer in business

And the guys that facilitated their exit made millions in bonuses.

Working as intended.


Not really

They would have made more in bonuses if their profits were better. They had an incentive to increase their profits and they pissed it away by making terrible business decisions.

Putting the blame of firing all those workers as the sole reason of their demise is also a bit wrong.

They thought that improving the bottom line was the biggest necessity. This in normal economic times would not have killed a billion dollar company. However, the great recession started, and terrible sales from firing people who knew how to sell and replacing them with newbs went completely in the shiatter.

Plus that and the terrible PR disaster on how they handled it did them no favors.
 
2013-04-29 02:43:46 AM
Well all I can say is go to www.glassdoor.com . I use this before I invest in company or work as a consultant for said company.
 
2013-04-29 03:09:44 AM
At some point, however, increasing the workload on employees backfires. The burden becomes too much for workers to bear, and when employees are overwhelmed and can't keep up with their duties, it's just plain bad for business.

VINDICATED!

Damn! I've been pointing that out for over 20 years and been ignored. Gosh knows how many FARKers have said the same thing, and been ignored.

The last company I worked for pushed it's employees so hard that, in Florida alone, in a 10 year period, they went through 25 sub contractors, over 2000 employees and three years after I left, they went belly up. DHL took over, and lost it, when they hired subcontractors who required the individual drivers to buy and own their own trucks -- per corporate specification and pay their own insurance and buy their own gas.

I like to shop at Winn Dixie, but changes have hit the store hard. To begin with, Winn Dixie doesn't allow store managers to order for their stores depending o0n the customers they serve. The Home Office does the ordering based on computer logged inventory. So, if you can't find, say, Campbell's Pea soup and you and others have requested it, blame it on the home office. Their policy basically ignores the store managers awareness of his customers needs.

So you go down the street to Publix, buy your Pea Soup and discover that they periodically have some outstanding deals on bulk beef -- better and cheaper than beef at Winn Dixie. So, you start splitting your purchases. (Winn Dixie offers a membership card service with good discounts and a great gas incentive. Publix doesn't.)

When I worked at a hospital, things were great, until they changed management. The first thing the new management did was try and segregate the professionals and non-professionals. (Pretty much a med tech like me was not supposed to have lunch or take a break with an RN.) Then they fired a bunch of staff, never replaced them and dumped their workload on those remaining. They didn't even bother to increase pay to cover the additional work. They developed a complicated way of paying overtime, meaning if you worked it, you very likely would only get straight pay.

The excellent care in the hospital started nose diving. At one time they decided that 4 year RNs were better than 2 year, so they could be charge nurses on the floors. RN with a 2 year degree would be regulated to doing much more floor work, along side the LPNs and medical aids. Then they decided the LPNs were barely nurses at all, cut their pay and regulated them mainly to nursing assistant work. They fired skilled nursing assistants and cut the staff down along with the pay, since they had nurses doing the assistants work anyhow.

Bad idea.

Nurses went on strike. Many quit. LPNs turned out to be vital after all, especially when they started going elsewhere to work and the service at the hospital became so bad that it slid from the number one spot on the coast, to one of the least desired to go to. Mistakes and corresponding lawsuits soared.

Nearly 30 years later and the hospital is still trying to recover, though they still over work their staff.

I've been through a lot of businesses and seen what happens when you treat good employees like shiat. For one thing, the incidents of employee theft just soars. Plus, employees are less likely to watch out for the usual thieves or to take action when they spot one.

We have an airplane company here making small, personal craft. When they started cracking down, employees damaged expensive machinery, one started using company materials to start and supply his home made belt buckle business (they were darn good) and theft soared.

One customer showed up to take possession of his new, expensive aircraft and when it wouldn't start, the mechanics opened up the engine. They found a pack of cigarettes in a piston cylinder.

One guy stole enough parts to nearly build his own aircraft -- but tossed them in the main canal by the factory. He just wanted to make a point -- with close to $100,000 in high end electronics and precision parts.

It always takes decades for bad ideas in business to be corrected.

Like paying CEOs enormous salaries while laying off 1/4 of the work force.

BTW. The Yuppies encouraged this attitude by mainly investing in companies with high profits -- which forced other companies to concentrate on bigger profits, which led to outsourcing, early retirement and layoffs. Don't forget the era of hostile takeovers, mainly designed to close a company, sell off it's stock and supplies, sell off the land and buildings and make a profit.

As one corporate executive said to me 'It's not personal. It's just business.'
 
2013-04-29 04:22:47 AM
A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?
 
2013-04-29 04:43:10 AM

padraig: A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?


"Uh, yeah. Well, it's like, you know, the four table policy is like, totally superior to the three table policy, 'cause it's like, more tables man. And more tables means I don't have to wait as long for muh cheese biscuits. What? Sure, I'll take a survey, man."
 
2013-04-29 05:07:34 AM

Bondith: soia: Sergeant Grumbles: gingerjet: They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

The Americans with advanced degrees don't want you for a boss, and the H1B's have no choice but to kiss your ass.

The U.S. has a surplus of skilled workers, so anything you say beyond "I don't want to pay for them." is a lie.

What is considered a skilled worker these days?  Been looking for "skilled" workers for 4 years now and it seems that they don't exist.  Was/Am even willing to train, but i guess people don't see the skill in the work that i do.

What is it that you do?



I'm curious, too, especially since soia is in the city... >__>
 
2013-04-29 05:16:50 AM

DrPainMD: [farm4.staticflickr.com image 200x150]
"Management decisions often involve trial and error."


LOL you think this is just a case of trial and error
 
2013-04-29 05:17:36 AM

padraig: A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?


Because the execs who came up with the policy likely have eaten at a Red Lobster at least once in their lives, technically making them customers
 
2013-04-29 05:18:44 AM
More to the point.... who the fark eats at Red Lobster anyway?  I can understand maybe the center of the country where there is no sea to easily get seafood.  But I live in the Gulf south and I'll be damned if the flipping Red Lobster is not packed every farking day.  What the fark?
 
2013-04-29 05:20:34 AM

wingnut396: More to the point.... who the fark eats at Red Lobster anyway?  I can understand maybe the center of the country where there is no sea to easily get seafood.  But I live in the Gulf south and I'll be damned if the flipping Red Lobster is not packed every farking day.  What the fark?


I had their cheddar biscuits once.  They were unremarkable.

In fact the entire meal was blandiose.

Except for the lobster pizza.  That was yummy.
 
2013-04-29 05:51:42 AM
This is good news.
 
2013-04-29 06:07:56 AM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: In fact the entire meal was blandiose.


blandiose

This word is so great, I have to add it to my dictionnary of most cromulent words.
 
2013-04-29 06:15:40 AM

padraig: The All-Powerful Atheismo: In fact the entire meal was blandiose.

blandiose

This word is so great, I have to add it to my dictionnary of most cromulent words.


That's an Atheismo original AFAIK
 
2013-04-29 07:00:43 AM

Gunther: DePaul:This is to be expected in today's workplace. What's troubling is the way these things are done. It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!" At least I still like the people I see everyday. It's just that the mood has changed.

Yep, I look at how your entry-level white collar workers are treated these days and I give thanks I entered the labor market a decade ago. You can see this attitude in this very thread:

RabidJade: We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.

You have to be a special kind of corporate shill to look at the facts (that modern day employees work longer hours, are better educated, are more productive and yet still earn less (adjusting for inflation) and are treated worse (less benefits, more work) than their parent's generation were at the same job) and come to the conclusion that it HAS to be because they're all slackers and malcontents.


Or compare them with most other countries around the world. Here (UK) we get four weeks holiday a year minimum from day one, and everyone takes every day, and generally work 39 hours a week or maybe a bit over. Alan Sugar (who is the boss on The Apprentice UK, but has never gone bankrupt unlike Donald) says that at his company anyone staying at their desk even a minute after six PM would get strange looks, and the feeling would probably be that he can't be that good if he can't get the job done done in regular hours. That's probably a bit extreme, and there certainly are some people who work long hours, but generally people work the official hours and then leave. The "cut staff and get everyone left to take up the slack" attitude does happen here but again generally within regular hours.
We also have laws against unfair dismissal, free healthcare (so no worries about losing your job will lead to losing your healthcare. In fact it becomes cheaper, prescriptions which cost about $12 per course when you're employed are generally free if you are unemployed) and no drug tests etc.
And yet we have quite a few world class companies who do quite well.
 
2013-04-29 07:07:55 AM

sendtodave: DePaul: It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!"

But isn't it refreshing to truthfully know how much you are really valued?

And are you, personally, making the company millions through investment, or sales, or cooking the books,  or restructuring?  No?

Then you are suckling off the company teat.  GBTW!


Christ, what an asshole!

Oh, and *plonk*
 
2013-04-29 07:18:21 AM
Farking geniuses, this lot.

Forty years of "doing more with less" is the real reason our economy is farked.

Don't let anyone tell you differently.
 
2013-04-29 07:18:53 AM

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


Well, that explains why my husband keeps getting aggressively recruited... they want some white people diversity. Ha. Good to know. I refuse to move to California though. His company doesn't seem to have a problem finding native-born software engineers.... and so long as you don't mind the stock price sucking sometimes because wall street thinks they "overspend on labor", it's a great company to work for. Sense a theme, there?

We're all part of the problem though... when's the last time any of us that have retirement plans pressured the people running them to invest in quality instead of a quick buck?
 
2013-04-29 07:36:37 AM
American Express just did this in travel services and other client facing divisions.

in January, 3000 were fired. another 2500 were fired over the next couple of months.

many that were not fired were demoted: managers became senior analysts, VPs became managers. Responsibilities remained the same of course, they just got 20% or greater salary cuts.

/have friends at Amex that survived that mess.
 
2013-04-29 07:41:51 AM

Big Ramifications: sirrerun: BarkingUnicorn: Red Lobster eliminated busboys

[i.imgur.com image 500x500]

Frowns on these shenanigans.
~
~
I remember Eddie Murphy referring to "bus boys" in one of his acts. "They'll fark anything that moves" or something like that.

It was an audio casette and we don't have "bus boys" in Australia and I was only a youngster. Took me a while to figure out it was probably the name of the opening act.


"Delirious" show, 1983.  Back when he was funny.  The whole show is on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJPUJvV-Ow0
 
2013-04-29 07:47:33 AM

padraig: A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?


Free meal.  You ever criticize your in-laws' Thanksgiving dinner to their faces?
 
2013-04-29 07:58:41 AM

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


So...  Um where does one send a resume to?  Mrs. Stone and I and the pebbles have had parts of CA (including your area in your profile) on the short list for a while now.
 
2013-04-29 08:34:34 AM

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


You probably underpay, most companies do.
 
2013-04-29 08:51:52 AM

padraig: A Red Lobster spokesperson told the Sentinel that while some customers liked the four-table policy,

How on Earth could the customers have an opinion on this policy?


Glad I'm not the only one that thought this. I dont know, give a rats ass about, how many tables my server is handling.  All I see is the service I get.  I suspect they're extrapolating data out from something like "Well, no customers are complaining, so they must like it"
 
2013-04-29 09:36:28 AM

stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)


People talk. No one but those with no choice applies for jobs at your company because word has gotten around that you run a slave labor shop. You and gingerjet better remember who is usually first up against the wall when the people get fed up with abusers who blame the victims. Enjoy being forever clueless as to why your competitors are able to find  good people while you can only find people who will work for you because otherwise they'll be deported.
 
2013-04-29 09:37:49 AM
There's a whole lotta speculation and inference in that article, and not much hard data. Businesses have problems for many reasons, and finding some that also just so happen to have made staffing changes about the same time wouldn't be tough. Not saying it couldn't be responsible, but use some data to prove it, not a series of anecdotes.
 
2013-04-29 10:00:41 AM

EngineerAU:  No one but those with no choice applies for jobs at your company because word has gotten around that you run a slave labor shop.


It's so hard to find good house nigras these days.
 
2013-04-29 10:33:00 AM
Businesses are learning that by downsizing the workforce they are, in effect, destroying their bottom line

Wait.  What businesses are learning that?  None that I've seen.
 
2013-04-29 10:53:10 AM

lilbjorn: Businesses are learning that by downsizing the workforce they are, in effect, destroying their bottom line

Wait.  What businesses are learning that?  None that I've seen.


well, with the exception of strip joints and fast food places, businesses are learning downsizing is bad....
 
2013-04-29 10:56:01 AM

jso2897: Summoner101: Businesses are learning?

I highly doubt that.

This - Malaysian monkey trap. you can't change primate behavior. the wealthy and powerful know exactly how they caused the last great depression, and they are going to cause another one by doing the exact same things, because they literally cannot stop themselves - because they are apes, like the rest of us.
The Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch can no more stop themselves than a crack-addicted ghetto-rat can stop himself from robbing a liquor store. It's ape programming.


Get your hands off me you damned dirty ape.
 
2013-04-29 11:03:25 AM

Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.


Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.
 
2013-04-29 11:06:16 AM

dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.


The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.
 
2013-04-29 11:10:03 AM

cman: dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.


My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.
 
2013-04-29 11:24:03 AM

Girion47: cman: dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.


If the issue is lack of applications, let alone hired, then it sounds like the company itself is at fault. Every time this comes up here on Fark, and it does often, they never seem to link to a job listing despite it being free publicity to get some applicants. For all we know they're looking for somebody with 10 years experience for an entry level position/salary in the middle of nowhere with the only way you would know about the opening is if you were related to somebody in HR.
 
2013-04-29 11:32:06 AM

sendtodave: Heraclitus: You really believe its about the bottom line?

its about control.

Always has been.

/ If you dont belong to a Union, you deserve what you get.

When someone asks you what you do, and you respond with your profession (because we are what we do), do you add the caveat that you actively try to make yourself less valuable to your employer?

It's simple.  The reason anyone has a job is to make money for the bosses.  And the more money they make for the bosses, the more valuable they are.  Conversly, the more money they take from their bosses, the less valuable they are.

"Oh!  But I am skilled!"

I have two guys making widgets.  One is skilled, and makes $2 worth of widgets.  I pay him $1.50 for his skill.  The other is not skilled, and makes only $1 worth of widgets.  I only pay him $.50.  Who makes me more money?

So, I hire 20 of the unskilled guys, which makes me $10 in widgets, and saves me $20 in labor cost over hiring skilled workers!  And then, when I fire them all, I save another $10 in labor cost, which is as much at my product is worth!

Cha-ching! Pass go, collect $200M bonus!

Dig a whole, fill it up.  With workers.


The plant on the other hand loses $200 dollars in labor costs when the final analysis comes in, because the skilled guys knew how to setup and tear down the machines. They knew to change the oil every 20 hours, and kept the line going. The unskilled guys they burned up the five most expensive machines in the plant costing 30 hours of down time and large outlays in repair and maintenance.
 
2013-04-29 11:34:04 AM

cman: Circuit City found that out the hard way

Now they are no longer in business


Well that and the brilliant decision: "Ehh... home appliances are kind of a pain to deal with. They take up a lot of floor space. There is a lot of competition.  So, we're going to stop selling them."  mere MONTHS before the beginning of a HUGE housing boom.
 
2013-04-29 11:35:21 AM

gingerjet: Fark Me To Tears: * - It is illegal to hire an H-1B for the purpose of displacing an American worker. Even if you can justify that the H-1B is truly an augmentation and not a displacement, it is also illegal to pay that H-1B a wage that is less than the prevailing wage of his American-worker counterparts. And yet, H-1Bs are routinely brought into this country to displace American workers and they are typically paid much less than those American workers were paid.

Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime.  The only people you are going to get are foreign workers.  And immigration is good for the economy.  Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts.  They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude


Nope, the good ones have jobs. You aren't offering a salary that attracts them. You are getting what you pay for.
 
2013-04-29 11:43:12 AM
I remember seeing a rather prophetic cartoon, way back in the sixties. A businessman is standing on a podium, overlooking a factory floor occupied entirely by robotic machines. Behind him, on the wall, is a "Sales" chart with the line going down at a sharp angle. There is a thought balloon over his head, and he is thinking: "Hmm. I wonder - if I paid these things a salary, would they buy any of the stuff we make?"
 
2013-04-29 11:46:28 AM

Flint Ironstag: Gunther: DePaul:This is to be expected in today's workplace. What's troubling is the way these things are done. It's not "We don't feel like hiring anymore people" it's "You are all a bunch of leeches and you've been stealing from us!" At least I still like the people I see everyday. It's just that the mood has changed.

Yep, I look at how your entry-level white collar workers are treated these days and I give thanks I entered the labor market a decade ago. You can see this attitude in this very thread:

RabidJade: We've produced a work force in this country who thinks they deserve more than what they have now and blame whoever they are working for at that moment regardless of how nice they have it.

You have to be a special kind of corporate shill to look at the facts (that modern day employees work longer hours, are better educated, are more productive and yet still earn less (adjusting for inflation) and are treated worse (less benefits, more work) than their parent's generation were at the same job) and come to the conclusion that it HAS to be because they're all slackers and malcontents.

Or compare them with most other countries around the world. Here (UK) we get four weeks holiday a year minimum from day one, and everyone takes every day, and generally work 39 hours a week or maybe a bit over. Alan Sugar (who is the boss on The Apprentice UK, but has never gone bankrupt unlike Donald) says that at his company anyone staying at their desk even a minute after six PM would get strange looks, and the feeling would probably be that he can't be that good if he can't get the job done done in regular hours. That's probably a bit extreme, and there certainly are some people who work long hours, but generally people work the official hours and then leave. The "cut staff and get everyone left to take up the slack" attitude does happen here but again generally within regular hours.
We also have laws against unfair dismissal, free healthcare (so no worries about losing yo ...


I read this whole post in a British accent while imagining you in a 3 piece suit holding an umbrella while typing it (Ala Patrick Macnee from the Avengers).  I have no idea why I did it, but it fit the whole post perfectly.
 
2013-04-29 11:56:59 AM

Slaves2Darkness: The plant on the other hand loses $200 dollars in labor costs when the final analysis comes in, because the skilled guys knew how to setup and tear down the machines. They knew to change the oil every 20 hours, and kept the line going. The unskilled guys they burned up the five most expensive machines in the plant costing 30 hours of down time and large outlays in repair and maintenance.


Those machines only exist to be sold for pennies on the dollar anyway.
 
2013-04-29 12:09:48 PM

Saners: Girion47: cman: dartben: Girion47: stiletto_the_wise: gingerjet: Try hiring an engineer with actual experience sometime. The only people you are going to get are foreign workers. And immigration is good for the economy. Especially since we aren't kicking out the kids like we should.

/on average my H-1B workers are paid much more than their American counterparts. They usually come to the table with advanced degrees and less shiatty attitude

This. I can't remember the last time an actual American applied to be a Software Engineer at my company. I'd love to hire one just for the sake of diversity. They simply do not exist anymore (or are all working at Google and Apple...)

You probably underpay, most companies do.

Yeah, maybe he should ask why they're all working for Apple and Google. I'm guessing compensation and work environment play a big role.

The problem with that is that not every company is a billion dollar company that can offer a shiatton of benefits.

Smaller companies do suffer from that.

My father-in-law is that way.   He has a great company, that has an awesome reputation, but he has trouble hiring people with experience because he doesn't understand why people won't work for the wages he's offering that are about equal with what students are getting at their co-ops and he's only offering 3 weeks vacation a year and very few federal holidays.

He does cover all insurance premiums but I don't think that makes up for it.

If the issue is lack of applications, let alone hired, then it sounds like the company itself is at fault. Every time this comes up here on Fark, and it does often, they never seem to link to a job listing despite it being free publicity to get some applicants. For all we know they're looking for somebody with 10 years experience for an entry level position/salary in the middle of nowhere with the only way you would know about the opening is if you were related to somebody in HR.


It's not a lack of applications that's the issue, it's that the people he pursues usually want more than he's willing to pay.  I feel like the boomer generation doesn't understand how much money some of these positions NEED to pay, they hear a number that would have been astronomical in their 20's and get all pissy and call the younger people "entitled" when all we really want is a livable wage.  Yes the numbers are higher, but inflation happened.  Even in my field I find companies are offering mid-50's for someone with 5-10 years experience and a professional certification.   That's insulting 5-10 alone should be commanding 70's-80's and a CSP or CIH easily is worth 6 figures.   This downturn has been horrible as far as companies lowering wage offers and expecting you to be grateful.
 
2013-04-29 12:11:48 PM
I'm not an executive, but I work on the executive floor.  Every day I overhear impromptu meetings about how to reduce "employee expense.". Cutting benefits, raising insurance deductibles, reducing staff through attrition, etc, etc.

Yet not 30 minutes later I overhear other conversations where the execs are biatching about how much it costs to store their private planes, or moor the fishing yacht, or the got-damned greens fees at the local club.

These people would be genuinely shocked, SHOCKED, if there were ever a popular uprising.
 
2013-04-29 12:12:56 PM
 The hell you say?

Unemployed people can't buy your crap? Hmm, who knew?
Of course the "Job Creators" have a special plan  for this, they'll just fire all American employees and replace them with people making 35 cent a day. They're hoping that the person living hand to mouth will pick up the slack for those "over paid" Americans.

Hypnozombie
/Best and brightest, Masters of Industry my ass.
//drooling vegetables would be more accurate
 
2013-04-29 12:19:59 PM

Girion47: I feel like the boomer generation doesn't understand how much money some of these positions NEED to pay, they hear a number that would have been astronomical in their 20's and get all pissy and call the younger people "entitled" when all we really want is a livable wage.


I have actually heard how entitled this generation is because $7.25 for minimum wage is more than what someone with a college degree made in the 70's, and without a hint of irony.
 
2013-04-29 12:49:53 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: Girion47: I feel like the boomer generation doesn't understand how much money some of these positions NEED to pay, they hear a number that would have been astronomical in their 20's and get all pissy and call the younger people "entitled" when all we really want is a livable wage.

I have actually heard how entitled this generation is because $7.25 for minimum wage is more than what someone with a college degree made in the 70's, and without a hint of irony.


Yes please tell me how entitled I am when jobs in the 70's would allow a family of four to survive on one income with 2 cars, a house, a summer house on a lake and a boat could be had by someone without a college degree.    I'm ready to feel guilty about wanting to be able to afford one mortgage without kids.
 
2013-04-29 01:02:14 PM

zenobia: sendtodave: Thingster: Every time I see an article about this, it makes my head hurt and I wind up screaming ,"5 dollar day!," at the computer.

In 1908 Ford figured this out.  Pay people a good wage, they get pride of ownership, you get a loyal, high quality workforce, and *gasp* when your workers make enough to afford the product they produce/sell they actually buy said products and services, which increases the customer base.  Higher quality products and services coupled with an expanded consumer base leads to a better bottom line.

Holy shiat people, this isn't hard.

As if you still need to actually make products to make money.  This ain't 1913, pal.  Times change.  If your business actually needs real products for real customers, you're in the wrong business.

Labor was only marginally useful in making money back then.  Now, it is pretty much unnecessary, 'cept for Red Lobster.

Absolutely. Check the lists of richest people. I believe moving-money-around is the only profitable business left. Making things costs too much.




Plus there is that pesky U.C.C..
 
2013-04-29 01:20:15 PM

Girion47: Yes please tell me how entitled I am when jobs in the 70's would allow a family of four to survive on one income with 2 cars, a house, a summer house on a lake and a boat could be had by someone without a college degree. I'm ready to feel guilty about wanting to be able to afford one mortgage without kids.


CSB Time:

While I was in college (mid 2000s), my course adviser recommended I study abroad. She said it would be a great experience and possibly open up career opportunities in other countries. The cost? $9000 on top of the $6000 in tuition and fees I was already paying. I asked her where the flying hell I was supposed to get the money for that. Her exact words were "Why don't you get a summer job?"
I politely declined, but probably could have driven my fist through her face if anger had outweighed absolute shock.
I worked every single semester of my college career, and it was never enough to do more than pay rent, utilities, and gorge on Mac n Cheese.
I've always wanted to know what was running through her head. Did she think there was a job I could get that paid $3000/month? Did the number attached not register with her as being high, despite more than doubling the cost of a semester?
It has to be some kind of generational gap. My FiL is the same way. Doesn't understand why I don't have a house, a new car, or provided him with grandchildren. He graduated debt free in 1976, paid for working summers in a warehouse. Paid off his $40K house before 1980 and then had two kids, all on one income. Thinks of my $40K in loans to pay for college as some kind of moral failing that I can make up for by working harder. He "did" it, why can't I?
 
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