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(Opposing Views)   California is considering a statewide ban on lead bullets because they're harmful to humans and animals. Well, duh   (opposingviews.com) divider line 289
    More: Obvious, Central California  
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3810 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Apr 2013 at 6:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-28 05:26:02 PM
lead birdshot has been out for quite some time.
 
2013-04-28 05:31:46 PM
Lead doesn't kill animals, the rapid acceleration of it in their direction & energy transference does.
 
2013-04-28 06:08:21 PM
dum-dums
 
2013-04-28 06:09:38 PM
What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?
 
2013-04-28 06:12:46 PM
Gun advocacy groups like the National Rifle Asocciation say that banning lead bullets will lead California down the path to more gun control and eventually the end of hunting throughout the state.

Hey now, the 2nd amendment doesn't say anything about bullets...
 
2013-04-28 06:13:50 PM
Guess Hogan shouldn't have blown up all those German ball bearing factories after all.
 
2013-04-28 06:13:51 PM

George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?


A) They don't want to replace it with anything
B) They want whatever it is replaced with to make bullets cost so much that firearms aren't viable for the common civilian
C) Political Profit?
 
2013-04-28 06:14:19 PM
It sounds pretty dumb but if you think about things being left behind in the forest it may have an effect that could produce a level of significance as the trends in nature and wildlife begin to be offset by health hazards in the animal's natural habitat.
 
2013-04-28 06:14:36 PM
I'm sort of surprised bullets are still lead. I thought that when people referred to lead like that that it was like how we still call pencil lead 'lead.'
 
2013-04-28 06:14:50 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-28 06:14:54 PM
I hear the new ones will be made with high fructose corn syrup.
 
2013-04-28 06:15:21 PM

George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?


Just die.

That's their plan.
 
2013-04-28 06:15:28 PM

George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?


They have bullets that are totally copper. I think they also have bullets that are made out of other materials  but they may just be for the military and law enforcement.
 
2013-04-28 06:15:46 PM

George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with?


Uranium.
 
2013-04-28 06:17:28 PM

SpdrJay: I hear the new ones will be made with high fructose corn syrup.


....the high fructose corn syrup is also cursed.
 
2013-04-28 06:18:20 PM

jehovahs witness protection: Guess Hogan shouldn't have blown up all those German ball bearing factories after all.


Was that before or after he demolished the WTC?
 
2013-04-28 06:18:46 PM

Foxxinnia: I'm sort of surprised bullets are still lead. I thought that when people referred to lead like that that it was like how we still call pencil lead 'lead.'


Bullets are usually lead in jacketed copper. Lead is still used in fishing lures as well. It's a cheap heavy metal that can be molded easily.
 
2013-04-28 06:19:11 PM

Zeppelininthesky: George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?

They have bullets that are totally copper. I think they also have bullets that are made out of other materials  but they may just be for the military and law enforcement.


Copper usually runs ~250% the cost of lead. There's frangibles, which are cool, but have specific applications.
 
2013-04-28 06:20:03 PM
Fine, fine. We'll just use steel core bullets.
 
2013-04-28 06:20:43 PM
So really, all bullets should be banned since they are designed to be harmful to humans and animals.
 
2013-04-28 06:20:47 PM
Some information from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources:

Lead is toxic, and there are effective and affordable alternatives to lead shot.Many hunters who regularly access both state and federal land already use non-toxic shot, reducing the possibility of violations when unintentionally possessing lead shot in federal Waterfowl Production Areas. Since 1999, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has prohibited the use of lead shot on all WPAs in Minnesota.Science has proven beyond doubt that exposure to lead is harmful, resulting in restrictions on the use of lead in gasoline and paints as well as restricting imports of products containing lead.There is a growing body of evidence that lead shot from shotgun shells is a direct, contributing factor to wildlife mortality and secondary poisoning. More than 100 species of upland birds, waterfowl and raptors are known to have ingested lead shot.There are at least 15 international studies, eight of them in Canada, that link lead shot in game animals to higher levels of lead in people who eat those game animals.There are effective and affordable alternatives to lead shot. Studies have demonstrated that steel shot, the most commonly available alternative and the least expensive, is equally effective when hunting waterfowl. Steel is also a very effective pheasant load. Already, 40 percent of Minnesota's pheasant hunters use steel shot.The DNR's Nontoxic Shot Advisory Committee agreed that a ban on lead shot is inevitable. Minnesota should be a nationwide leader in this effort, following its own example of banning lead shot for waterfowl hunting in 1987 - four years before the federal government completed enactment of its ban.More than 1.3 million acres in 23 states already have non-toxic shot requirements above and beyond what the federal government requires for waterfowl hunting. In fact, both South Dakota and Nebraska each have 400,000 acres where non-toxic shot is required.All that's being proposed is that people use non-toxic ammunition when they go hunting so they don't end up poisoning the environment in which they like to hunt in the first place. This should be about as obvious as not taking a shiat in your own living room, but derpers are gonna derp.
 
2013-04-28 06:20:59 PM
I'm sure that they won't care about law enforcement use... because there's no way an animal would ever come across that.

/idiots.
 
2013-04-28 06:22:43 PM
"People's Republic of California" indeed.
 
2013-04-28 06:22:54 PM

Cagey B: wall of poor formatting


Yeesh. Didn't look like that in the preview. Anyway, there's alternatives to lead shot that don't poison the shiat out of everything. Use those. It's not that hard.
 
2013-04-28 06:24:03 PM
www.bigislandchronicle.com
 
2013-04-28 06:24:26 PM

MichiganFTL: George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?

A) They don't want to replace it with anything
B) They want whatever it is replaced with to make bullets cost so much that firearms aren't viable for the common civilian
C) Political Profit?


Are you retarded? Lead in bullets is a serious pollutant that's why they were outlawed in most states for hunting birds, because the lead was poisoning wetlands.  The army has been searching for green bullet alternatives for a while because they're tired of having to pay for the clean up at firing ranges when the lead from thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds starts leaching into the groundwater. But yeah.. HERPADERP CONSPIRACY HERPADERP
 
2013-04-28 06:24:35 PM

Cagey B: Some information from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources:

Lead is toxic, and there are effective and affordable alternatives to lead shot.Many hunters who regularly access both state and federal land already use non-toxic shot, reducing the possibility of violations when unintentionally possessing lead shot in federal Waterfowl Production Areas. Since 1999, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has prohibited the use of lead shot on all WPAs in Minnesota.Science has proven beyond doubt that exposure to lead is harmful, resulting in restrictions on the use of lead in gasoline and paints as well as restricting imports of products containing lead.There is a growing body of evidence that lead shot from shotgun shells is a direct, contributing factor to wildlife mortality and secondary poisoning. More than 100 species of upland birds, waterfowl and raptors are known to have ingested lead shot.There are at least 15 international studies, eight of them in Canada, that link lead shot in game animals to higher levels of lead in people who eat those game animals.There are effective and affordable alternatives to lead shot. Studies have demonstrated that steel shot, the most commonly available alternative and the least expensive, is equally effective when hunting waterfowl. Steel is also a very effective pheasant load. Already, 40 percent of Minnesota's pheasant hunters use steel shot.The DNR's Nontoxic Shot Advisory Committee agreed that a ban on lead shot is inevitable. Minnesota should be a nationwide leader in this effort, following its own example of banning lead shot for waterfowl hunting in 1987 - four years before the federal government completed enactment of its ban.More than 1.3 million acres in 23 states already have non-toxic shot requirements above and beyond what the federal government requires for waterfowl hunting. In fact, both South Dakota and Nebraska each have 400,000 acres where non-toxic shot is required.All that's being proposed is that people u ...


By that token, I want a ban on lead used in batteries as those are toxic in landfills. I also want lead banned from PVC creation because it can seep into the water. Lead must not be used as ballast in sailboats because it could get into the oceans. The lead that is used as solder in electronics MUST be outlawed because they have such a short life-span in our society that they are poisoning our land.

Basically, if you're going to pretend this isn't a backdoor shot at gun control in California, you better be against all the other uses which can poison the environment/animals.
 
2013-04-28 06:24:43 PM
Lead poisoning is the #1 threat against recovery of the California Condor, and is a major threat to the bald eagle, the most patriotic of birds. 37% of packaged venison for human consumption was found to have lead fragments in it:

http://www.nps.gov/pinn/naturescience/leadinfo.htm

Lead interferes with a variety of body processes and is toxic to many organs and tissues including the hear, bones, intestines, kidneys, reproductiveand nervous systems. It interferes with the development of the nervous system and is therefore particularly toxic to children, causing potentially permanent and behavior disorders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning
 
2013-04-28 06:24:53 PM

Great Janitor: So really, all bullets should be banned since they are designed to be harmful to humans and animals.


c:\pics\tentacle-porn\thatsthejoke.jpg
 
2013-04-28 06:25:19 PM

Cagey B: Some information from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources:

Lead is toxic, and there are effective and affordable alternatives to lead shot.Many hunters who regularly access both state and federal land already use non-toxic shot, reducing the possibility of violations when unintentionally possessing lead shot in federal Waterfowl Production Areas. Since 1999, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has prohibited the use of lead shot on all WPAs in Minnesota.Science has proven beyond doubt that exposure to lead is harmful, resulting in restrictions on the use of lead in gasoline and paints as well as restricting imports of products containing lead.There is a growing body of evidence that lead shot from shotgun shells is a direct, contributing factor to wildlife mortality and secondary poisoning. More than 100 species of upland birds, waterfowl and raptors are known to have ingested lead shot.There are at least 15 international studies, eight of them in Canada, that link lead shot in game animals to higher levels of lead in people who eat those game animals.There are effective and affordable alternatives to lead shot. Studies have demonstrated that steel shot, the most commonly available alternative and the least expensive, is equally effective when hunting waterfowl. Steel is also a very effective pheasant load. Already, 40 percent of Minnesota's pheasant hunters use steel shot.The DNR's Nontoxic Shot Advisory Committee agreed that a ban on lead shot is inevitable. Minnesota should be a nationwide leader in this effort, following its own example of banning lead shot for waterfowl hunting in 1987 - four years before the federal government completed enactment of its ban.More than 1.3 million acres in 23 states already have non-toxic shot requirements above and beyond what the federal government requires for waterfowl hunting. In fact, both South Dakota and Nebraska each have 400,000 acres where non-toxic shot is required.All that's being proposed is that people use non-toxic ammunition when they go hunting so they don't end up poisoning the environment in which they like to hunt in the first place. This should be about as obvious as not taking a shiat in your own living room, but derpers are gonna derp.


Agreed. Eliminating lead is a good idea. Lead poisoning is terrible to watch. I saw animals getting lead poisoning from eating paint chips from old houses before lead paint was banned. Pretty terrible stuff.
 
2013-04-28 06:25:43 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: MichiganFTL: George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?

A) They don't want to replace it with anything
B) They want whatever it is replaced with to make bullets cost so much that firearms aren't viable for the common civilian
C) Political Profit?

Are you retarded? Lead in bullets is a serious pollutant that's why they were outlawed in most states for hunting birds, because the lead was poisoning wetlands.  The army has been searching for green bullet alternatives for a while because they're tired of having to pay for the clean up at firing ranges when the lead from thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds starts leaching into the groundwater. But yeah.. HERPADERP CONSPIRACY HERPADERP


HERPDERPaderp. Then why don't we go after all of the other lead that's poisoning our land and oceans (see above)?
 
2013-04-28 06:25:54 PM

Zeppelininthesky: George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?

They have bullets that are totally copper. I think they also have bullets that are made out of other materials  but they may just be for the military and law enforcement.


There are a few that are all copper but most are lead core with partial to full copper jackets.  Bullets need to expand to do proper damage and copper is too hard to do that reliably.  NATO uses FMJ for wounding and hollowpoints or soft lead points are for killing.  Lead-Free shot is just lead shot coated in copper or bismuth making the cost go WAY up.

As far as killing and eating, how long are people leaving the slug in the animal to build up any lead at all?  Maybe predators are eating wounded prey and ingesting some shot, but dressing a kill would prevent long exposure in the game.
 
2013-04-28 06:26:37 PM

Brick-House: [www.bigislandchronicle.com image 300x300]


For those deer or people who are armor plated...
 
2013-04-28 06:27:19 PM

Cagey B: Cagey B: wall of poor formatting

Yeesh. Didn't look like that in the preview. Anyway, there's alternatives to lead shot that don't poison the shiat out of everything. Use those. It's not that hard.


Here's the problem: Those alternatives aren't available in all ammunition types. Steel shot in waterfowl hunting is nothing new, but anything with a rifle? That's a different story. A good number of ranges in Missouri won't allow you to take any ferrous (iron-containing) ammunition on their firing lines because they tear up their backstops. I can't imagine that it's much different in California, so it may make it harder to practice for the season.

Besides, if they really, really cared about the environment, they'd start looking at other problems first, like the horrific traffic in Los Angeles.
 
2013-04-28 06:27:38 PM
My theory is, if we fire off some of those DU rounds, they will demand the lead bullets to protect them from the remains of the DU rounds.
 
2013-04-28 06:27:51 PM
The second Amendment does not say you have the right to own bullets, just guns.
 
2013-04-28 06:29:10 PM

Warlordtrooper: The second Amendment does not say you have the right to own bullets, just guns.


1/10
 
2013-04-28 06:29:59 PM

Calehedron: Zeppelininthesky: George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?

They have bullets that are totally copper. I think they also have bullets that are made out of other materials  but they may just be for the military and law enforcement.

There are a few that are all copper but most are lead core with partial to full copper jackets.  Bullets need to expand to do proper damage and copper is too hard to do that reliably.  NATO uses FMJ for wounding and hollowpoints or soft lead points are for killing.  Lead-Free shot is just lead shot coated in copper or bismuth making the cost go WAY up.

As far as killing and eating, how long are people leaving the slug in the animal to build up any lead at all?  Maybe predators are eating wounded prey and ingesting some shot, but dressing a kill would prevent long exposure in the game.

There are also copper-jacketed tungsten tin or nylon core bullets.
 
2013-04-28 06:30:12 PM

MichiganFTL: George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?

A) They don't want to replace it with anything
B) They want whatever it is replaced with to make bullets cost so much that firearms aren't viable for the common civilian
C) Political Profit?



Lead pollutes ground water and is a serious concern in my state.  Bird shot for water fowl is required to be steel by law.  This has the backing of the NRA and Ducks Unlimited around here.

/only asshats use lead shot for ducks and geese.
 
2013-04-28 06:30:44 PM

MichiganFTL: By that token, 1)I want a ban on lead used in batteries as those are toxic in landfills. 2) I also want lead banned from PVC creation because it can seep into the water. 3)Lead must not be used as ballast in sailboats because it could get into the oceans. 4)The lead that is used as solder in electronics MUST be outlawed because they have such a short life-span in our society that they are poisoning our land.


1) Butteries aren't purposely dumped onto the ground and doing so is already illegal.

2) Lead in PVC will be phased out by 2015 in the US.

3) I agree

4) Ever heard of RoHS and REACH?

5) False equivalence is false you ignorant twat
 
2013-04-28 06:31:33 PM

fusillade762: Gun advocacy groups like the National Rifle Asocciation say that banning lead bullets will lead California down the path to more gun control and eventually the end of hunting throughout the state.

Hey now, the 2nd amendment doesn't say anything about bullets...


"The right to possess firearms for protection implies a corresponding right to acquire and maintain proficiency in their use; the core right wouldn't mean much without the training and practice that make it effective."

Ezell v Chicago
 
2013-04-28 06:32:32 PM

Warlordtrooper: The second Amendment does not say you have the right to own bullets, just guns.


Just like the first amendment doesn't grant you the right to own vocal chords.
 
2013-04-28 06:32:47 PM
oi54.tinypic.com
 
2013-04-28 06:32:51 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: 1) Butteries

Batteries even
 
2013-04-28 06:33:25 PM

MichiganFTL: By that token, I want a ban on lead used in batteries as those are toxic in landfills. I also want lead banned from PVC creation because it can seep into the water. Lead must not be used as ballast in sailboats because it could get into the oceans. The lead that is used as solder in electronics MUST be outlawed because they have such a short life-span in our society that they are poisoning our land


People don't eat batteries or PVC or any of your other examples. They do eat packaged venison. And 34% of that sold in California contains lead fragments. Another study showed that 59% of venison donated by hunters to food shelters in North Dakota contain lead fragments.

Would you rather we just banned the transfer or sale of hunted meat?
 
2013-04-28 06:33:42 PM

George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?


knowing California...tofu
 
2013-04-28 06:33:53 PM

George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?


Well some of us gun loving lefty hippie environmental nuts hunt with non-lead bullets all the time, they're made with either all copper or copper/zinc

images.cabelas.com
 
2013-04-28 06:33:53 PM

Marine1: Here's the problem: Those alternatives aren't available in all ammunition types. Steel shot in waterfowl hunting is nothing new, but anything with a rifle? That's a different story. A good number of ranges in Missouri won't allow you to take any ferrous (iron-containing) ammunition on their firing lines because they tear up their backstops. I can't imagine that it's much different in California, so it may make it harder to practice for the season.


Firstly, they're not banning lead shot, they're prohibiting it for use while hunting. So you can still get it and take it to the range if you want. Secondly, there's provisions in the bills requiring the state to certify alternatives. This isn't the cramp on peoples' style that it's being made out to be.

Marine1: Besides, if they really, really cared about the environment, they'd start looking at other problems first, like the horrific traffic in Los Angeles.


This is a spurious argument at best. "No one can do anything to help the environment until these other, non-related problems are addressed". This is a pretty straightforward measure that's already being enforced in other places to keep areas which the public (including hunters and anglers) enjoys from being unduly exposed to lead.
 
2013-04-28 06:34:03 PM

redmid17: fusillade762: Gun advocacy groups like the National Rifle Asocciation say that banning lead bullets will lead California down the path to more gun control and eventually the end of hunting throughout the state.

Hey now, the 2nd amendment doesn't say anything about bullets...

"The right to possess firearms for protection implies a corresponding right to acquire and maintain proficiency in their use; the core right wouldn't mean much without the training and practice that make it effective."

Ezell v Chicago



Right.  It needs to be regulated, in a militia of sorts.  Perhaps even regulated well.
 
2013-04-28 06:34:05 PM

Zeppelininthesky


George Babbitt: What are they going to replace it with? Or are we just expected to go back to throwing rocks at our prey/attackers?

They have bullets that are totally copper. I think they also have bullets that are made out of other materials but they may just be for the military and law enforcement.


Winchester makes some .22LR rounds out of tin.
 
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