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(NewsBusters)   George W Bush has saved more lives and done more for blacks than any other president in History, says... Fringe-Left-Wing Author Ellen Ratner   (newsbusters.org) divider line 165
    More: Interesting, Ellen Ratner, George W. Bush, obama, real Americans, black person, Americans  
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2363 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Apr 2013 at 2:06 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-28 03:27:30 AM

randomjsa: Ishkur: He wasn't a racist. He was a classist. He didn't give a shiat about poor people.

1 billion in AIDS help to Africa. Your response sir or madam?


socialism.
 
2013-04-28 03:29:27 AM

namatad: Alphax: I dunno.. seems there's some disagreement about whether or not the no condoms rule completely cancelled out the effectiveness of the funding.

no
no there is not

A million addition Aids/HIV+ patients (wild ass guess) can not be cancelled out by "additional funding."
1) Say the net is close to breakeven. HOW THE FARK is he the best pres ever by that measure?
2) WHAT THE FARK - why would anyone cut off funding to a program which was KNOWN to reduce aids.

so yah
from what I can tell this is doubleplusgood
/either the perfect troll or the rewriting of history
/perfect either way


It also put a major chill on organisations working with sex workers, in spite of the incredible success such initiatives had had in places like Thailand.

The funding was great (even if it was necessary in part because of the US-initiated international trade restrictions on cheap generic drugs from places like India), and I'd like to see that expanded - but the moralising restrictions need to be dropped. There were places where PEPFAR did more harm than good by ending prevention programs that were working.
 
2013-04-28 03:30:49 AM

randomjsa: 1 billion in AIDS help to Africa. Your response sir or madam?


That's not helping poor people, that's keeping them alive so they can continue slaving for rich multinationals.

There was a cost-benefit to everything he did for the underclasses (ie: increase low income home ownership to fuel another financial speculation bubble).
 
2013-04-28 03:38:43 AM
 
2013-04-28 03:45:23 AM

log_jammin: namatad: In what universe was this helpful?

The one where a millionish people are still alive because of it.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-04/sumc-ssf040209.php


So a million people were kept alive, by treating them with medicine.
Bravo. Seriously.

BUT
How many additional people contracted HIV during the period when condoms were banned?

/sorry - the scientist in me sees missing data and wonders what the numbers were. ESP since the number is misleading when it is presented as a "net" save, when it is more like a partial save.
/bah
 
2013-04-28 03:50:37 AM

namatad: the scientist in me sees missing data and wonders what the numbers were.


www.annals.org/content/150/10/688.abstract?ijkey=ba28ba16ec4572e1ed2 3b 2787409c881aa7bbdb1&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

the study the article was based on.

Look, the abstinence thing was stupid. Could it have been better? of course. But the simple fact is, the program helped.
 
2013-04-28 03:59:30 AM

log_jammin: namatad: the scientist in me sees missing data and wonders what the numbers were.

www.annals.org/content/150/10/688.abstract?ijkey=ba28ba16ec4572e1ed2 3b 2787409c881aa7bbdb1&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

the study the article was based on.

Look, the abstinence thing was stupid an attempt to spread religous beliefs using public money, further eroding the separation of chuch and state. Could it have been better? of course. But the simple fact is, the program helped was meant to coerce vulnerable segments of african society using funds sourced from people of all regligions, aka the US taxpayer.

 
2013-04-28 04:03:01 AM

angrycrank: There were places where PEPFAR did more harm than good by ending prevention programs that were working.


And that is the truly depressing part of the story.
Working programs were ended.
They were replaced with programs which didnt work.

It wasnt the money. The same money was still spent.
It was all about religion.

And that is sad.
 
2013-04-28 04:04:39 AM

LookForTheArrow: an attempt to spread religous beliefs using public money, further eroding the separation of chuch and state


LookForTheArrow: was meant to coerce vulnerable segments of african society using funds sourced from people of all regligions, aka the US taxpayer.


yes.

and saved a million lives.
 
2013-04-28 04:10:07 AM

log_jammin: namatad: the scientist in me sees missing data and wonders what the numbers were.

www.annals.org/content/150/10/688.abstract?ijkey=ba28ba16ec4572e1ed2 3b 2787409c881aa7bbdb1&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

the study the article was based on.

Look, the abstinence thing was stupid. Could it have been better? of course. But the simple fact is, the program helped.


But
My point is still not answered, nor do I think the study estimated how many new people were infected because condoms, which used to be available, became unavailable.

An additional point, which is such an amazing lie with numbers, is:
How many people died during the period? Was the death rate still rising? What was the total number of infected?

A) condoms only - X people did not get infected
B) treatment only - Y people didnt die
C) both - Some number greater than Y

/yes of course it was nice to give the drug companies billions of dollars to save a 1 million people.
/whoops, we could have saved money and bought generics?
/what is the current status in africa? have they turned the corner or is HIV still out of control?
 
2013-04-28 04:13:52 AM

namatad: /what is the current status in africa? have they turned the corner or is HIV still out of control?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Africa#Regional_analysis
tada
life expectancy is going up
so clearly the corner has been turned
 
2013-04-28 04:15:14 AM

namatad: But
My point is still not answered, nor do I think the study estimated how many new people were infected because condoms, which used to be available, became unavailable.

An additional point, which is such an amazing lie with numbers, is:
How many people died during the period? Was the death rate still rising? What was the total number of infected?

A) condoms only - X people did not get infected
B) treatment only - Y people didnt die
C) both - Some number greater than Y


Let me try another link

https://www.google.com/

I think you'll find your answers there.
 
2013-04-28 04:18:30 AM

log_jammin: LookForTheArrow: an attempt to spread religious beliefs using public money, further eroding the separation of church and state

LookForTheArrow: was meant to coerce vulnerable segments of african society using funds sourced from people of all religions, aka the US taxpayer.

yes.

and saved a million lives.


It was also a cynical attempt to court public opinion. At the time Bush first went to Africa to talk about the money for AIDS his numbers were tanking and Amnesty International et al were calling  for him to be arrested as a war criminal. Credit where credit is due but motivation counts as well.
 
2013-04-28 04:21:34 AM

namatad: log_jammin: namatad: the scientist in me sees missing data and wonders what the numbers were.

www.annals.org/content/150/10/688.abstract?ijkey=ba28ba16ec4572e1ed2 3b 2787409c881aa7bbdb1&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

the study the article was based on.

Look, the abstinence thing was stupid. Could it have been better? of course. But the simple fact is, the program helped.

But
My point is still not answered, nor do I think the study estimated how many new people were infected because condoms, which used to be available, became unavailable.

An additional point, which is such an amazing lie with numbers, is:
How many people died during the period? Was the death rate still rising? What was the total number of infected?

A) condoms only - X people did not get infected
B) treatment only - Y people didnt die
C) both - Some number greater than Y

/yes of course it was nice to give the drug companies billions of dollars to save a 1 million people.
/whoops, we could have saved money and bought generics?
/what is the current status in africa? have they turned the corner or is HIV still out of control?


Oooooh. The Butthurt is strong in this one.

By a measurement over the same time period between countries that got the same medical attention as they had before Bush's program and ones that got Bush's program, AIDS deaths dropped 10% in the countries that used Bush's programs. Therefore Bush's programs were bad because [Derp].

Were Bush's programs not perfect? Sure. Were they better than what was the norm? Yes. You are advocating going back to the norm and letting a few million people die for your own political points.

How do you sleep at night knowing that dead black and brown people are less important to you than you making cheap political points on a pointless internet forum? Farking sociopath.
 
2013-04-28 04:22:04 AM
at first i didnt see it

first they have to get infected
condoms and safe sex doesnt do that

absinense training and no condoms does

now you have a "hooked" population

profit
 
2013-04-28 04:26:15 AM

quatchi: It was also a cynical attempt to court public opinion. At the time Bush first went to Africa to talk about the money for AIDS his numbers were tanking and Amnesty International et al were calling for him to be arrested as a war criminal. Credit where credit is due but motivation counts as well.


no doubt.
 
2013-04-28 04:27:18 AM

bindlestiff2600: at first i didnt see it

first they have to get infected
condoms and safe sex doesnt do that

absinense training and no condoms does

now you have a "hooked" population

profit


nice
 
2013-04-28 04:29:38 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Got one elected president, for starters.


www.charlock.org
 
2013-04-28 04:32:11 AM

log_jammin: LookForTheArrow: an attempt to spread religous beliefs using public money, further eroding the separation of chuch and state

LookForTheArrow: was meant to coerce vulnerable segments of african society using funds sourced from people of all regligions, aka the US taxpayer.

yes.

and saved a million lives.


well, i'm sure the nazi doctors who tested on jewish children also managed to save a few lives, and deserve a few kudos (yep, went there, but i'm not about to celebrate good done by evil people.. even broken clocks are right twice a day.)
 
2013-04-28 04:35:20 AM

LookForTheArrow: i'm sure the nazi doctors who tested on jewish children also managed to save a few lives


well that's a pretty stupid assumption.

LookForTheArrow: celebrate


acknowledging reality =/= celebrating.
 
2013-04-28 04:35:30 AM

Ishkur: randomjsa: 1 billion in AIDS help to Africa. Your response sir or madam?

That's not helping poor people, that's keeping them alive so they can continue slaving for rich multinationals.

There was a cost-benefit to everything he did for the underclasses (ie: increase low income home ownership to fuel another financial speculation bubble).


You are hopelessly stupid and by that I mean there is no amount of education or information that could ever help you.

It takes a special kind of insanity to call providing poor people medicine and medical treatment an act of pure malevolence. One of the things I often accuse liberals of is not caring about results, only intentions. In this case, the fact that millions of lives are saved thanks to anti-viral medication becoming available is still viewed in a negative way because Bush did it and clearly his intentions were bad. You are a text book example of a religious extremist where political ideology has replaced religion. Left wing ideology is substituted for the word of god, making everything without exception that isn't 'liberal', somehow evil.
 
2013-04-28 04:39:36 AM
log_jammin:
acknowledging reality =/= celebrating.

Unless you're in a thread about Bush's legacy and we're down to the one thing we all agree he did.. for all the wrong reasons. I dont acknowledge his legacy deserves credit for that. He used MY money to push religion, making a mockery of the foundations of our country.

I dig you're not celebrating it.. but you're also saying we should acknowledge it as an act that weighs against his legacy. I do not agree.
 
2013-04-28 04:43:05 AM
I guess I'm the only one who actually read his book.  It wasn't just AIDS, it was malaria, too.

People still blame Bush for Nagin's failures?
 
2013-04-28 04:48:51 AM

randomjsa: You are hopelessly stupid and by that I mean there is no amount of education or information that could ever help you.
It takes a special kind of insanity to call providing poor people medicine and medical treatment an act of pure malevolence. One of the things I often accuse liberals of is not caring about results, only intentions. In this case, the fact that millions of lives are saved thanks to anti-viral medication becoming available is still viewed in a negative way because Bush did it and clearly his intentions were bad. You are a text book example of a religious extremist where political ideology has replaced religion. Left wing ideology is substituted for the word of god, making everything without exception that isn't 'liberal', somehow evil.


So you don't have any facts, you're just going to resort to ad hominem poutrage? ....okay.

(psst: I'm not a liberal and never claimed to be)

www.smugbaldy.com
 
2013-04-28 04:49:54 AM

STRYPERSWINE: People still blame Bush for Nagin's failures?


i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-04-28 04:54:38 AM
img35.imageshack.us
 
2013-04-28 04:57:08 AM

LookForTheArrow: I dig you're not celebrating it.. but you're also saying we should acknowledge it as an act that weighs against his legacy. I do not agree.


I'm saying it's a fact that the program saved a million lives and that's all I'm saying.
 
2013-04-28 05:06:57 AM
Okay fine. Bush did some good for black people.

Brown people on the other hand...
 
2013-04-28 05:13:13 AM
Newsbusters? Yeah, not clicking. Nice try though.
 
2013-04-28 05:35:40 AM

cman: I never understood why people thought he was racist.

Bush JR was a lot of things (a drunk, a moron, a fake accent guy), but racist wasn't one of them.


I believe you are correct that he wasn't racist in any noteworthy sense.
 
2013-04-28 06:17:07 AM
Who the hell ever called shrub a racist?

The list of terrible things he is and has done is huge, we don't need to add that. Other members of his Administration covered the racist angle well enough for the base.
 
2013-04-28 06:33:37 AM
Inner conflict.  The white man in Obama just won't let the black man in Obama do what needs to be done.  ;)

I always figured as a guy, GW was probably alright.  He just was controlled by his daddy's people.  Too bad.
 
2013-04-28 06:50:05 AM

Mentat: He's probably one of the nicest, most likable Presidents we've ever had.


1)
George Bush's imitation of a woman he had executed '"Please," Bush whimpered, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "please, don't kill me.'

2)
lh5.googleusercontent.com
Matt Bors
 
2013-04-28 07:14:06 AM

jaytkay: Mentat: He's probably one of the nicest, most likable Presidents we've ever had.

1)
George Bush's imitation of a woman he had executed '"Please," Bush whimpered, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "please, don't kill me.'

thanks  id forgotten that one

 
2013-04-28 07:20:16 AM
So when Conservatives try to tell me with a straight face that GWB was not one of them, this is what they mean?
 
2013-04-28 07:35:22 AM
Lets see...
Katrina...oops loss of emails multiple times...two wars off the budget books and lying about why it started to boot... using gitmo and torture forcing John Ashcroft to resign due to ethical questions....returning the budget surplus to admin cronies and very wealthy people...mishandling though delegation and overuse of vacation time...using reporter shills.  Come on, he was not welcome at the RNC.

Africa was his last ditch version of legacy at a legacy.  And yes it was a nice thing to do that was probably very cost efficient in terms of results for humanity.  But he still farked up the United States leaving it far worse then he left it regardless.

/And 'left-wing' reporters on Fox news does not help.
 
2013-04-28 07:39:26 AM
One of Bush's problems is that as President he was more or less along for the ride.  So we got disastrous foreign and economic policies courtesy of Cheney and the neocons.  But humanitarian efforts to combat aids in Africa were under the neocon radar so Bush could do something good as it was other people influencing him on those decisions.
 
2013-04-28 08:00:30 AM
Mussolini made the trains run on time. That does not excuse the rest of his legacy.
 
2013-04-28 08:11:10 AM
Darfurians get less free money from America when were in a recession?

Wow.  Who would have thought that would be the case....us having the audacity to get our acts together and back on track so we can dole out free money again.

We'll let you know when the gravy train is starting up again.
 
2013-04-28 08:12:19 AM

randomjsa: Ishkur: He wasn't a racist. He was a classist. He didn't give a shiat about poor people.

1 billion in AIDS help to Africa. Your response sir or madam?


1 Trillion to a small group of his friends. Your response to this 100,000 to 1 ratio?*

*A Lot more people got a lot less money per person.
 
2013-04-28 08:18:34 AM

STRYPERSWINE: People still blame Bush for Nagin's failures?


The job was too hard. It was much better for Michael Brown to just sit in DC and biatch about how Nagin and Landrieu won't get along instead of actually doing something productive.

You're right though, Bush didn't bungle Katrina all by himself, he just put a really shiatty person in charge of handling it.

Feel better?
 
2013-04-28 08:20:11 AM

Alphax: And some guy on there talked about how Bush kept us safe for 7 years after 9/11


And the levee system in New Orleans kept the city dry for 7 years after failing during Hurricane Katrina.

/such a pathetic standard to use
 
2013-04-28 08:25:47 AM

Mrtraveler01: Alphax: And some guy on there talked about how Bush kept us safe for 7 years after 9/11

And the levee system in New Orleans kept the city dry for 7 years after failing during Hurricane Katrina.

/such a pathetic standard to use


And ignores the DC sniper, the anthrax in the mail, and plenty of other events.
 
2013-04-28 08:40:38 AM
FTA: "George W. Bush is the Real American Hero"

Go Joe!
 
2013-04-28 08:41:46 AM
LOUD NOISES!!!!!
 
2013-04-28 08:52:50 AM
i915.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-28 08:56:50 AM

Enemabag Jones: Lets see...
Katrina...oops loss of emails multiple times...two wars off the budget books and lying about why it started to boot... using gitmo and torture forcing John Ashcroft to resign due to ethical questions....returning the budget surplus to admin cronies and very wealthy people...mishandling though delegation and overuse of vacation time...using reporter shills.  Come on, he was not welcome at the RNC.

Africa was his last ditch version of legacy at a legacy.  And yes it was a nice thing to do that was probably very cost efficient in terms of results for humanity.  But he still farked up the United States leaving it far worse then he left it regardless.

/And 'left-wing' reporters on Fox news does not help.


Well, plus Powell and Rice as "first black/black woman SOS" was good to see. He was no racist, and he did more than Obama did for standing with American Muslims after 9/11, among other praise-worthy actions. He was just a horrible, horrible President in general with even worse people around him. Shame, really. I had a quantum of hope when he was elected that he might be alright. Oh well.
 
2013-04-28 09:03:58 AM
I personally do not know anyone who thought of bush as racist. His father could be considered biggoted against homosexuals, women, and nonchristians, but Bush Jr was too busy being told what to do by his vice president.
 
2013-04-28 09:11:09 AM
Please, keep farking that "Bush was RIGHT!" chicken.
 
2013-04-28 09:31:15 AM

randomjsa: Ishkur: randomjsa: 1 billion in AIDS help to Africa. Your response sir or madam?

That's not helping poor people, that's keeping them alive so they can continue slaving for rich multinationals.

There was a cost-benefit to everything he did for the underclasses (ie: increase low income home ownership to fuel another financial speculation bubble).

You are hopelessly stupid and by that I mean there is no amount of education or information that could ever help you.

It takes a special kind of insanity to call providing poor people medicine and medical treatment an act of pure malevolence. One of the things I often accuse liberals of is not caring about results, only intentions. In this case, the fact that millions of lives are saved thanks to anti-viral medication becoming available is still viewed in a negative way because Bush did it and clearly his intentions were bad. You are a text book example of a religious extremist where political ideology has replaced religion. Left wing ideology is substituted for the word of god, making everything without exception that isn't 'liberal', somehow evil.



Ishkur is waaaaaay above your weight class. Please continue, the results should be enjoyable.
 
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