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(Slate)   Teenagers shouldn't be "forced" by parents to wake up for school because they need their sleep, claims columnist who totally isn't a teenager   (slate.com) divider line 36
    More: Unlikely, academic conferences, sleeps, eye doctor  
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4226 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Apr 2013 at 8:42 PM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-27 08:52:03 PM
8 votes:
Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.
2013-04-27 08:55:40 PM
7 votes:

Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?


Am I crazy here in that I cannot fall asleep until my body tells me it's sleep time?

I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.
2013-04-27 08:48:59 PM
6 votes:
There is actually something to this and I'd like to see more empirical studies.

//source: wife has doctorate in education, has studied this very thing, and has some opinions, which means I have some opinions.
2013-04-27 08:46:17 PM
6 votes:
I've read about a couple of high schools that tried starting classes 90 minutes later.  Student performance improved.
2013-04-27 09:18:08 PM
5 votes:
Humans naturally develop a different sleep cycle when entering the teenage years. Given all the other changes happening to the body during that period, this shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-teenage-mind/201202/sleepy-t ee ns
2013-04-27 09:12:34 PM
5 votes:

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?

Am I crazy here in that I cannot fall asleep until my body tells me it's sleep time?

I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.


So much this -- i cant fall asleep till like 2AM usually. Its just how my body works. My sister chides me all the time and says 'have you tried just turning off the lights and closing your eyes?'

Yeah -- and it results in 3 hours staring into the dark while my mind tries to find new ways to make me feel bad about myself or make me feel foolish about my day. Honeslty -- its like a 1 way ticket to rumination land.

Every time someone suggests just going to bed earlier i want to punch them right in the crotch.

I had a 1 hour bus ride to school and it dropped me off first so it was a 5:30-6 AM wake up for me. Try telling a teenager to go to bed at 10pm. Find a teenager that COULD go to bed at 10pm.
2013-04-27 08:47:33 PM
5 votes:
Can I start work an hour and a half later too? I also need my sleep.
2013-04-27 10:37:29 PM
3 votes:
I always love the backlash to these kinds of proposals.

We have people who have no problem keeping 18-20 year olds from buying alcohol and denying people under 18 the ability to make some of the most basic decisions, all based on neurology or some study related to it.

BUT, the moment a study comes out and says that same neurological development also calls for them to get more sleep or possibly keep moderately different hours, all of a sudden it's all bullshiat and if adults can handle it, so can teens.

Well, which is it?  Does the neurology or neurological development of teens matter or not?  It can't be just a way to deprive them of rights and privileges, can it?  Can teens not be temporarily cut some slack due to their supposed developing neurology?

I also love the quality of some of the neurological studies.  My favorite is the one Discovery magazine did many years ago testing "adolescent" rats.  They pumped these poor creatures with the equivalent of 20 beers in an hour every day for two weeks, then sobered them up for a week and had them run mazes with 'adult' rats.  Then they got both sets drunk and found that the adult rats did better at the mazes.  Well, I'm convinced.
Other studies are based on teen vs adult perception of a facial expressions.  Because the teens reported different things, they were said to be deficient in understanding the world due to an underdeveloped brain.
It's almost like phrenology  at some point.
2013-04-27 09:18:49 PM
3 votes:

OgreMagi: WhoopAssWayne:
//source: wife has doctorate in education, has studied this very thing, and has some opinions, which means I have some opinions.

Has she ever actually taught in a real school?  Because if she has not, then her doctorate and opinion are completely worthless.


Actually, I think that this circadian rythm thing is much better understood by a researcher as opposed to a hands-on teacher. It will involve aggregating and analyzing large amounts of data, not teaching anyone anything. You're being unbearably dick right now.
2013-04-27 09:17:15 PM
3 votes:
We've been conditioned to get up with the sun for the past 10 000 years, not when our alarm clocks tell us to for the past 100.
2013-04-27 08:53:15 PM
3 votes:
I was one of those hateful parents that made my kids check in the cell phones/electronics every night at 9:00 pm.  It made for grumpy teens at night, but surprisingly cheerful teens the following day.
2013-04-27 08:48:21 PM
3 votes:
So go to sleep earlier?
2013-04-27 11:58:38 PM
2 votes:
In all seriousness though, when the article is about sleep needs of teenagers, why do we get a bunch of anecdotal evidence from adults about their sleep patterns as adults?

You don't need to "practice" getting up for work at 7:30 as a teenager, as you age that just becomes easier to do on its own.
2013-04-27 09:36:26 PM
2 votes:
Hehe. And then there's me, who would have preferred school start at 6a and no summer break.

But for my kids, we'll do homeschool/online, so as long as they put in 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, I don't really care when they sleep, as long as they're healthy.

/planning on raising entrepreneurs. Set your own gorram hours.
2013-04-27 09:33:39 PM
2 votes:
I never understood why schools started so much earlier than the average work shift. If the point of high school is to prepare students to transition to adult life and enter the workforce, why not start it at 9 AM, just like the vast majority of regular day jobs? It would also make things considerably easier for the other associated staff, like teachers, janitors, and whatnot.

/and there's the whole "it's healthier and makes for better learning" thing, too
//the usual "kids these days are soft" nostalgia was just as annoying when your parents did it, dummies
2013-04-27 09:23:06 PM
2 votes:

YouPeopleAreCrazy: If high schools existed in their own microcosm, sure....start at 10 AM

However...
In a lot of places, there is one set of buses and drivers. Rotating between elem, middle, high.
So we can either have the 15 year old waiting for the bus in the dark at 7 AM, or the 7 year old.

/get yer narrow ass outta bed!


From the studies that I can remember reading (and plenty of anecdotal evidence), that's exactly how it should be. Based on all kinds of neurological development stuff it's much easier for young children to wake up early and be alert than it is for teenagers.
2013-04-27 09:01:03 PM
2 votes:

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


I moved my Junior year of high school from a school that started at 7:15 and got out at 2:15 o a school that started at 8:45 and got out at 3:30, I did better at the second school.

/It could have been the move from Maine to Georgia that made the difference as well.
2013-04-27 09:00:56 PM
2 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: I've read about a couple of high schools that tried starting classes 90 minutes later.  Student performance improved.


I've seen some of this, too, and I'm all for it.

Schools commonly wonder why kids tend to sleep through first period when they start the school day at 7;15, forcing the bus to pick them up at six prompt, forcing them to wake up at 5:30 when there's still stars out, expecting them to start to bed at 7:30 when the sun's still up.

/When I was a kid, we woke up the previous night, after going to bed the previous day, and today, no one believes it.
// Then our father cut us in two with the breadknife.
2013-04-27 08:59:52 PM
2 votes:
I could see pushing the Junior high and Highschool start times back to maybe 9. This of course means they'll be in school till about 4:30 or so.
2013-04-28 02:24:14 AM
1 votes:

Active introvert: Sorry, I work nights. I'm sure a ten minute Google search will tell you how much biology I'm fighting. I do it because I have to so I can keep my job. My boss doesn't ask me if I'm tired. If I don't get my work done I can't tell him that my biological rhythms are off. Why should teens get a pass? My point is that in life, we have to do things that are unpleasant to get what we want


Yeah -- you can do it so everybody should have to otherwise they must be some sort of puss.

You work nights -- could you LIVE on the night shift. Like every day? And not by choice? We have to do unpleasant things to get what we want sure -- but I dont think having to walk around like i have a mental handicap for half a day is ultimately going to let me thrive at anything i choose to do.
2013-04-28 12:56:36 AM
1 votes:

Active introvert: It's all relative. If they start school later then they would go to bed later thus getting the same amount of sleep. Why don't the parents take the phones, turn of the Xbox and computer and tell the little whiners to STFU and go to bed.Life sucks. get use to doing things you don't want to do.


Because, as you would know if you took the time to do a ten-minute Google search on the topic, teenagers are hardwired to sleep from eleven PM to about eight or so AM. And yes, it is in fact biological.

/Seriously, I knew this in high school, it's not like this is breaking news.
2013-04-28 12:40:51 AM
1 votes:
ITT:

Authoritarians AKA Morning People disparage "lazy" Night people for having a circadian rhythm different than their own.

My job starts at 7:30, even though I spend most of my time working with suppliers on the west coast and I am in the eastern time zone. All because our plant manager is a morning person and wants all salaried people to follow the same hours as 1st shift line workers.
2013-04-27 11:59:10 PM
1 votes:
ITT: Old, bitter geezers who won't entertain a possibly better solution to a problem simply because they had to suffer when they were young. A shame you can't all die already.
2013-04-27 10:16:47 PM
1 votes:
I've had sleep apnea since I was 17, but I didn't get it treated until I was almost 40.  I could fall asleep at a moment's notice at any point during the day.  It was like narcolepsy.  Also didn't matter what time I woke up, I was always tired.
2013-04-27 09:51:21 PM
1 votes:

OgreMagi: Has she ever actually taught in a real school? Because if she has not, then her doctorate and opinion are completely worthless.


Your opinion on movies is worthless unless you're a filmmaker.

And you can't comment on food unless you're a chef.
2013-04-27 09:51:07 PM
1 votes:

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


I'll be sure to relay this to my boss.

/6a to 2:30p
//doing just fine
///go to bed earlier
////get off my lawn
2013-04-27 09:50:12 PM
1 votes:

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


This has been proven over and over and over again. Teenagers simply cannot get going at 7:30 a.m. Endless studies have shown that a) kids do better when classes start around 9 or 10, and b) the only reason we're still stuck on this farm schedule is for the convenience of school schedules and "oh, then they wouldn't have time to do sports in the afternoon and still get all their homework done."

If you can spot what's wrong with the argument for keeping on the 7:30-3 schedule, a cookie for you. There is no good excuse any more.
2013-04-27 09:35:34 PM
1 votes:

mikefinch: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?

Am I crazy here in that I cannot fall asleep until my body tells me it's sleep time?

I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.

So much this -- i cant fall asleep till like 2AM usually. Its just how my body works. My sister chides me all the time and says 'have you tried just turning off the lights and closing your eyes?'

Yeah -- and it results in 3 hours staring into the dark while my mind tries to find new ways to make me feel bad about myself or make me feel foolish about my day. Honeslty -- its like a 1 way ticket to rumination land.

Every time someone suggests just going to bed earlier i want to punch them right in the crotch.

I had a 1 hour bus ride to school and it dropped me off first so it was a 5:30-6 AM wake up for me. Try telling a teenager to go to bed at 10pm. Find a teenager that COULD go to bed at 10pm.


I think you and I must have been separated at birth or something. On the subject of the article, I wrote an 'expository' essay on this exact subject for my Senior Writing class, and got my best grade of the semester for my efforts...
TWX
2013-04-27 09:34:50 PM
1 votes:
I agree that there needs to be changes.  Into my late twenties I had a real bear of a time getting up in the morning, only reason it wasn't as much an issue in high school is I had to go in for marching band practice first thing, and I actually liked marching band and had a cup of hot cocoa and still put up with the grogginess for the next two hours.

As I've entered my thirties I find it much easier to get up in the morning, almost the point of not needing an alarm if I go to bed by ten.  I also find that my perception of time is changed, it's a lot easier to deal withing things that last weeks or months or even sometimes years.

I think that a lot of adults forget these changes as they've experienced them once they're out past them.  They forget how hard it is to get up in the morning, how long a few weeks or a few months felt when the task or event was not cared for.  We need to remind ourselves of these things if we have to deal with youth if we want those dealings to be practical.
2013-04-27 09:34:39 PM
1 votes:

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


My kids have to be in homeroom by 7:12. We live across the street so they don't have too much of a problem but some kids have to catch the bus at 6 am.
2013-04-27 09:31:28 PM
1 votes:

jaytkay: Teenagers can sleep 18 hours a day, old people sleep less. Even Ric Romero knows this.


Just to clarify, this is not about how long they sleep, but what is the most productive time for them to arrive at school.
2013-04-27 09:17:06 PM
1 votes:
It's all relative. If they start school later then they would go to bed later thus getting the same amount of sleep. Why don't the parents take the phones, turn of the Xbox and computer and tell the little whiners to STFU and go to bed.Life sucks. get use to doing things you don't want to do.
2013-04-27 09:15:05 PM
1 votes:

Sim Tree: BarkingUnicorn: I've read about a couple of high schools that tried starting classes 90 minutes later.  Student performance improved.

I've seen some of this, too, and I'm all for it.

Schools commonly wonder why kids tend to sleep through first period when they start the school day at 7;15, forcing the bus to pick them up at six prompt, forcing them to wake up at 5:30 when there's still stars out, expecting them to start to bed at 7:30 when the sun's still up.

/When I was a kid, we woke up the previous night, after going to bed the previous day, and today, no one believes it.
// Then our father cut us in two with the breadknife.


Luxury.
2013-04-27 09:14:20 PM
1 votes:

OgreMagi: Has she ever actually taught in a real school? Because if she has not, then her doctorate and opinion are completely worthless.


7 years teaching public high school english before she went for the masters followed by doctoral work. Her school was in a poor, rural area and had a population mix of, almost in equal proportions, whites, blacks, and latinos. It didn't pay sh*t but she loved it.
2013-04-27 09:12:52 PM
1 votes:
This just in:  Teenagers stay up too late.
2013-04-27 09:06:11 PM
1 votes:

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


This. My high school started @ 7:05. I still hate getting up early.
 
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