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(Slate)   Teenagers shouldn't be "forced" by parents to wake up for school because they need their sleep, claims columnist who totally isn't a teenager   (slate.com) divider line 137
    More: Unlikely, academic conferences, sleeps, eye doctor  
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4245 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Apr 2013 at 8:42 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-27 08:43:11 PM  
GET UP

/dad voice
 
2013-04-27 08:46:17 PM  
I've read about a couple of high schools that tried starting classes 90 minutes later.  Student performance improved.
 
2013-04-27 08:47:33 PM  
Can I start work an hour and a half later too? I also need my sleep.
 
2013-04-27 08:48:21 PM  
So go to sleep earlier?
 
2013-04-27 08:48:59 PM  
There is actually something to this and I'd like to see more empirical studies.

//source: wife has doctorate in education, has studied this very thing, and has some opinions, which means I have some opinions.
 
2013-04-27 08:52:03 PM  
Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.
 
2013-04-27 08:53:15 PM  
I was one of those hateful parents that made my kids check in the cell phones/electronics every night at 9:00 pm.  It made for grumpy teens at night, but surprisingly cheerful teens the following day.
 
2013-04-27 08:55:16 PM  
My 17 year old approves.
 
2013-04-27 08:55:40 PM  

Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?


Am I crazy here in that I cannot fall asleep until my body tells me it's sleep time?

I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.
 
2013-04-27 08:56:52 PM  
As a teen I was capable of epic sleep-ins.  I would have loved a school that started at 11:00/11;30.
 
2013-04-27 08:59:06 PM  

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


My day started just after 7 for my senior year of high school, as part of a ''zero-period" program the school was trying out for a few classes. It was the only option if I wanted to take an AP science course. On the one hand, I retained almost nothing from the course since I was still mostly asleep during the whole class. On the other hand, I was allowed to end the school day at 12:30.
 
2013-04-27 08:59:52 PM  
I could see pushing the Junior high and Highschool start times back to maybe 9. This of course means they'll be in school till about 4:30 or so.
 
2013-04-27 09:00:56 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: I've read about a couple of high schools that tried starting classes 90 minutes later.  Student performance improved.


I've seen some of this, too, and I'm all for it.

Schools commonly wonder why kids tend to sleep through first period when they start the school day at 7;15, forcing the bus to pick them up at six prompt, forcing them to wake up at 5:30 when there's still stars out, expecting them to start to bed at 7:30 when the sun's still up.

/When I was a kid, we woke up the previous night, after going to bed the previous day, and today, no one believes it.
// Then our father cut us in two with the breadknife.
 
2013-04-27 09:01:03 PM  

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


I moved my Junior year of high school from a school that started at 7:15 and got out at 2:15 o a school that started at 8:45 and got out at 3:30, I did better at the second school.

/It could have been the move from Maine to Georgia that made the difference as well.
 
2013-04-27 09:01:09 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: There is actually something to this and I'd like to see more empirical studies.

//source: wife has doctorate in education, has studied this very thing, and has some opinions, which means I have some opinions.


Teenagers can sleep 18 hours a day, old people sleep less.

Even Ric Romero knows this.
 
2013-04-27 09:02:10 PM  
WhoopAssWayne:
//source: wife has doctorate in education, has studied this very thing, and has some opinions, which means I have some opinions.

Has she ever actually taught in a real school?  Because if she has not, then her doctorate and opinion are completely worthless.
 
2013-04-27 09:03:46 PM  
Why bother with school.. Obama killed our economy.. just be welfare addicts...
 
2013-04-27 09:06:11 PM  

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


This. My high school started @ 7:05. I still hate getting up early.
 
2013-04-27 09:07:01 PM  
If high schools existed in their own microcosm, sure....start at 10 AM

However...
In a lot of places, there is one set of buses and drivers. Rotating between elem, middle, high.
So we can either have the 15 year old waiting for the bus in the dark at 7 AM, or the 7 year old.

/get yer narrow ass outta bed!
 
2013-04-27 09:07:59 PM  

Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?


Circadian rhythm.
 
2013-04-27 09:12:34 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?

Am I crazy here in that I cannot fall asleep until my body tells me it's sleep time?

I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.


So much this -- i cant fall asleep till like 2AM usually. Its just how my body works. My sister chides me all the time and says 'have you tried just turning off the lights and closing your eyes?'

Yeah -- and it results in 3 hours staring into the dark while my mind tries to find new ways to make me feel bad about myself or make me feel foolish about my day. Honeslty -- its like a 1 way ticket to rumination land.

Every time someone suggests just going to bed earlier i want to punch them right in the crotch.

I had a 1 hour bus ride to school and it dropped me off first so it was a 5:30-6 AM wake up for me. Try telling a teenager to go to bed at 10pm. Find a teenager that COULD go to bed at 10pm.
 
2013-04-27 09:12:52 PM  
This just in:  Teenagers stay up too late.
 
2013-04-27 09:13:45 PM  

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


That's when we started when it was finals or there was a blizzard expected later that day. Then we got out at 1 and they didn't have to feed us.
We band geeks had to be there by 6:45 for practice during the season though.
 
2013-04-27 09:14:20 PM  

OgreMagi: Has she ever actually taught in a real school? Because if she has not, then her doctorate and opinion are completely worthless.


7 years teaching public high school english before she went for the masters followed by doctoral work. Her school was in a poor, rural area and had a population mix of, almost in equal proportions, whites, blacks, and latinos. It didn't pay sh*t but she loved it.
 
2013-04-27 09:15:05 PM  

Sim Tree: BarkingUnicorn: I've read about a couple of high schools that tried starting classes 90 minutes later.  Student performance improved.

I've seen some of this, too, and I'm all for it.

Schools commonly wonder why kids tend to sleep through first period when they start the school day at 7;15, forcing the bus to pick them up at six prompt, forcing them to wake up at 5:30 when there's still stars out, expecting them to start to bed at 7:30 when the sun's still up.

/When I was a kid, we woke up the previous night, after going to bed the previous day, and today, no one believes it.
// Then our father cut us in two with the breadknife.


Luxury.
 
2013-04-27 09:15:27 PM  

mikefinch: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?

Am I crazy here in that I cannot fall asleep until my body tells me it's sleep time?

I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.

So much this -- i cant fall asleep till like 2AM usually. Its just how my body works. My sister chides me all the time and says 'have you tried just turning off the lights and closing your eyes?'

Yeah -- and it results in 3 hours staring into the dark while my mind tries to find new ways to make me feel bad about myself or make me feel foolish about my day. Honeslty -- its like a 1 way ticket to rumination land.

Every time someone suggests just going to bed earlier i want to punch them right in the crotch.

I had a 1 hour bus ride to school and it dropped me off first so it was a 5:30-6 AM wake up for me. Try telling a teenager to go to bed at 10pm. Find a teenager that COULD go to bed at 10pm.


I've changed what time I wake up multiple times.  it takes time, but eventually if you have to get up earlier, I naturally start falling asleep earlier.   And after a while it's my new normal.   And I have horrible sleep issues.   Napping (while awesome) is the biggest enemy of a decent bedtime.
 
2013-04-27 09:17:06 PM  
It's all relative. If they start school later then they would go to bed later thus getting the same amount of sleep. Why don't the parents take the phones, turn of the Xbox and computer and tell the little whiners to STFU and go to bed.Life sucks. get use to doing things you don't want to do.
 
2013-04-27 09:17:15 PM  
We've been conditioned to get up with the sun for the past 10 000 years, not when our alarm clocks tell us to for the past 100.
 
2013-04-27 09:18:08 PM  
Humans naturally develop a different sleep cycle when entering the teenage years. Given all the other changes happening to the body during that period, this shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-teenage-mind/201202/sleepy-t ee ns
 
2013-04-27 09:18:49 PM  

OgreMagi: WhoopAssWayne:
//source: wife has doctorate in education, has studied this very thing, and has some opinions, which means I have some opinions.

Has she ever actually taught in a real school?  Because if she has not, then her doctorate and opinion are completely worthless.


Actually, I think that this circadian rythm thing is much better understood by a researcher as opposed to a hands-on teacher. It will involve aggregating and analyzing large amounts of data, not teaching anyone anything. You're being unbearably dick right now.
 
2013-04-27 09:23:06 PM  

YouPeopleAreCrazy: If high schools existed in their own microcosm, sure....start at 10 AM

However...
In a lot of places, there is one set of buses and drivers. Rotating between elem, middle, high.
So we can either have the 15 year old waiting for the bus in the dark at 7 AM, or the 7 year old.

/get yer narrow ass outta bed!


From the studies that I can remember reading (and plenty of anecdotal evidence), that's exactly how it should be. Based on all kinds of neurological development stuff it's much easier for young children to wake up early and be alert than it is for teenagers.
 
2013-04-27 09:31:28 PM  

jaytkay: Teenagers can sleep 18 hours a day, old people sleep less. Even Ric Romero knows this.


Just to clarify, this is not about how long they sleep, but what is the most productive time for them to arrive at school.
 
2013-04-27 09:31:34 PM  
Quaker:

From the studies that I can remember reading (and plenty of anecdotal evidence), that's exactly how it should be. Based on all kinds of neurological development stuff it's much easier for young children to wake up early and be alert than it is for teenagers.

This is probably true.
Now convince Mom to do the work to make this happen.
 
2013-04-27 09:33:39 PM  
I never understood why schools started so much earlier than the average work shift. If the point of high school is to prepare students to transition to adult life and enter the workforce, why not start it at 9 AM, just like the vast majority of regular day jobs? It would also make things considerably easier for the other associated staff, like teachers, janitors, and whatnot.

/and there's the whole "it's healthier and makes for better learning" thing, too
//the usual "kids these days are soft" nostalgia was just as annoying when your parents did it, dummies
 
2013-04-27 09:34:39 PM  

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


My kids have to be in homeroom by 7:12. We live across the street so they don't have too much of a problem but some kids have to catch the bus at 6 am.
 
TWX
2013-04-27 09:34:50 PM  
I agree that there needs to be changes.  Into my late twenties I had a real bear of a time getting up in the morning, only reason it wasn't as much an issue in high school is I had to go in for marching band practice first thing, and I actually liked marching band and had a cup of hot cocoa and still put up with the grogginess for the next two hours.

As I've entered my thirties I find it much easier to get up in the morning, almost the point of not needing an alarm if I go to bed by ten.  I also find that my perception of time is changed, it's a lot easier to deal withing things that last weeks or months or even sometimes years.

I think that a lot of adults forget these changes as they've experienced them once they're out past them.  They forget how hard it is to get up in the morning, how long a few weeks or a few months felt when the task or event was not cared for.  We need to remind ourselves of these things if we have to deal with youth if we want those dealings to be practical.
 
2013-04-27 09:35:34 PM  

mikefinch: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?

Am I crazy here in that I cannot fall asleep until my body tells me it's sleep time?

I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.

So much this -- i cant fall asleep till like 2AM usually. Its just how my body works. My sister chides me all the time and says 'have you tried just turning off the lights and closing your eyes?'

Yeah -- and it results in 3 hours staring into the dark while my mind tries to find new ways to make me feel bad about myself or make me feel foolish about my day. Honeslty -- its like a 1 way ticket to rumination land.

Every time someone suggests just going to bed earlier i want to punch them right in the crotch.

I had a 1 hour bus ride to school and it dropped me off first so it was a 5:30-6 AM wake up for me. Try telling a teenager to go to bed at 10pm. Find a teenager that COULD go to bed at 10pm.


I think you and I must have been separated at birth or something. On the subject of the article, I wrote an 'expository' essay on this exact subject for my Senior Writing class, and got my best grade of the semester for my efforts...
 
2013-04-27 09:36:26 PM  
Hehe. And then there's me, who would have preferred school start at 6a and no summer break.

But for my kids, we'll do homeschool/online, so as long as they put in 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, I don't really care when they sleep, as long as they're healthy.

/planning on raising entrepreneurs. Set your own gorram hours.
 
2013-04-27 09:45:01 PM  

Cyno01: Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?

Circadian rhythm.


This. Everyone is different.
 
2013-04-27 09:46:49 PM  

diaphoresis: Why bother with school.. Obama killed our economy.. just be welfare addicts...


School is important so you can learn why the founding fathers sucked and why socialism is rad.
 
2013-04-27 09:50:12 PM  

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


This has been proven over and over and over again. Teenagers simply cannot get going at 7:30 a.m. Endless studies have shown that a) kids do better when classes start around 9 or 10, and b) the only reason we're still stuck on this farm schedule is for the convenience of school schedules and "oh, then they wouldn't have time to do sports in the afternoon and still get all their homework done."

If you can spot what's wrong with the argument for keeping on the 7:30-3 schedule, a cookie for you. There is no good excuse any more.
 
2013-04-27 09:51:07 PM  

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


I'll be sure to relay this to my boss.

/6a to 2:30p
//doing just fine
///go to bed earlier
////get off my lawn
 
2013-04-27 09:51:21 PM  

OgreMagi: Has she ever actually taught in a real school? Because if she has not, then her doctorate and opinion are completely worthless.


Your opinion on movies is worthless unless you're a filmmaker.

And you can't comment on food unless you're a chef.
 
2013-04-27 10:03:33 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Endless studies have shown that a) kids do better when classes start around 9 or 10


Confirmed with wifey, and yes, it is 10am for high school teenagers. Very different for elementary, middle, but for high school - the right number seems to be converging on 10am.
 
2013-04-27 10:03:36 PM  
School should start later and end later for high school kids. Getting that to happen will be difficult. Film at 11.
 
2013-04-27 10:06:06 PM  

OgreMagi: WhoopAssWayne:
//source: wife has doctorate in education, has studied this very thing, and has some opinions, which means I have some opinions.

Has she ever actually taught in a real school?  Because if she has not, then her doctorate and opinion are completely worthless.


l.wigflip.com
 
2013-04-27 10:09:45 PM  
 
2013-04-27 10:10:04 PM  
I would have done much better in school if it had started later in the day.
 
2013-04-27 10:16:21 PM  
My senior year had homeroom starting at 6:57 am.  To this day, I cannot force myself to "sleep-in" any later than 5:15 am.

rummonkey: Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.

I'll be sure to relay this to my boss.

/6a to 2:30p
//doing just fine
///go to bed earlier
////get off my lawn


My husband just started his job working those same hours and complains non-stop about having to get up at 5 and feeling sleepy by 8 pm.  I'd trade hours with him in a heartbeat.
 
2013-04-27 10:16:47 PM  
I've had sleep apnea since I was 17, but I didn't get it treated until I was almost 40.  I could fall asleep at a moment's notice at any point during the day.  It was like narcolepsy.  Also didn't matter what time I woke up, I was always tired.
 
2013-04-27 10:19:16 PM  

YouPeopleAreCrazy: If high schools existed in their own microcosm, sure....start at 10 AM

However...
In a lot of places, there is one set of buses and drivers. Rotating between elem, middle, high.
So we can either have the 15 year old waiting for the bus in the dark at 7 AM, or the 7 year old.

/get yer narrow ass outta bed!


Does anyone take the bus anymore?  It seems everyone drops off their kids.
 
2013-04-27 10:21:16 PM  
In my area, and when I was a kid, high schoolers started at 7:15.

This is retarded. Let's face a little reality here, huh?
 
2013-04-27 10:21:43 PM  

mikefinch: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?

Am I crazy here in that I cannot fall asleep until my body tells me it's sleep time?

I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.

So much this -- i cant fall asleep till like 2AM usually. Its just how my body works. My sister chides me all the time and says 'have you tried just turning off the lights and closing your eyes?'

Yeah -- and it results in 3 hours staring into the dark while my mind tries to find new ways to make me feel bad about myself or make me feel foolish about my day. Honeslty -- its like a 1 way ticket to rumination land.



Oh, my G-d, THIS!  My husband can shut his eyes anywhere, anytime and fall asleep.  I, on the other hand, can't fall asleep before 2am, no matter what.
 
2013-04-27 10:23:10 PM  

FizixJunkee: YouPeopleAreCrazy: If high schools existed in their own microcosm, sure....start at 10 AM

However...
In a lot of places, there is one set of buses and drivers. Rotating between elem, middle, high.
So we can either have the 15 year old waiting for the bus in the dark at 7 AM, or the 7 year old.

/get yer narrow ass outta bed!

Does anyone take the bus anymore?  It seems everyone drops off their kids.


Based on the number of times I end up behind them going to and from work, yes kids are still taking the bus.

/I hate being awake that early too kids, but hurry your ass up!
 
2013-04-27 10:26:23 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-04-27 10:30:05 PM  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder

This is extremely common in teenagers.

Why my 2nd grader starts her school day at 9am, while high school starts at 7:30, it is crazy, and totally backwards.   My daughter is up at 6:30am as it is now, and I know she'll not want to wake up until 8am when she is 16.
 
2013-04-27 10:34:34 PM  
This is... news to some people.

There are a few people (hi) who did better in the Period 1 and 0 classes, but I've *always* been at my best about 30 to 45 minutes after I wake up. This is weird and unusual.

But even today, I cannot 'make' myself go to sleep (without a heavy infusion of alcoholism). I do nto sleep until my body is exhausted, and even then my brain likes to go full speed.

Just laying in bed with teh covers on and the lights off has always meant I lay there bored out of my gourd for hours, and I've slapped myself for suggesting it to my cousin (He's 18/19 now).
 
2013-04-27 10:36:56 PM  
Oh noes! You have to get up and do something you don't want to do at a time you don't want to do it! Horrible! Bed time is 9pm. Every night. Go. Don't you dare try and make me tell you to get out of bed. You'll do it yourself or you'll be dropped off at school in your pajamas and have a shiat load of house cleaning to do when you get home.

/ITP
 
2013-04-27 10:37:29 PM  
I always love the backlash to these kinds of proposals.

We have people who have no problem keeping 18-20 year olds from buying alcohol and denying people under 18 the ability to make some of the most basic decisions, all based on neurology or some study related to it.

BUT, the moment a study comes out and says that same neurological development also calls for them to get more sleep or possibly keep moderately different hours, all of a sudden it's all bullshiat and if adults can handle it, so can teens.

Well, which is it?  Does the neurology or neurological development of teens matter or not?  It can't be just a way to deprive them of rights and privileges, can it?  Can teens not be temporarily cut some slack due to their supposed developing neurology?

I also love the quality of some of the neurological studies.  My favorite is the one Discovery magazine did many years ago testing "adolescent" rats.  They pumped these poor creatures with the equivalent of 20 beers in an hour every day for two weeks, then sobered them up for a week and had them run mazes with 'adult' rats.  Then they got both sets drunk and found that the adult rats did better at the mazes.  Well, I'm convinced.
Other studies are based on teen vs adult perception of a facial expressions.  Because the teens reported different things, they were said to be deficient in understanding the world due to an underdeveloped brain.
It's almost like phrenology  at some point.
 
2013-04-27 10:42:06 PM  

Summercat: This is... news to some people.

There are a few people (hi) who did better in the Period 1 and 0 classes, but I've *always* been at my best about 30 to 45 minutes after I wake up. This is weird and unusual.

But even today, I cannot 'make' myself go to sleep (without a heavy infusion of alcoholism). I do nto sleep until my body is exhausted, and even then my brain likes to go full speed.

Just laying in bed with teh covers on and the lights off has always meant I lay there bored out of my gourd for hours, and I've slapped myself for suggesting it to my cousin (He's 18/19 now).


I've always found the best way to fall asleep is to turn on some kind of TV or movie. It's gotta be something you've seen before. I've got Futurama, The Simpsons, and American Dad on a playlist on my laptop and just set it to play. I've seen every episode, but it gives my brain something to focus on without having to actually stay alert because I've already seen it. Just install a sleep timer so your computer will turn off (or use the one on the TV). I'm usually out within 10-20 minutes and have to fight if I want to stay up and watch the episode. Whereas it can take a couple hours if I'm just sitting in silence.
 
2013-04-27 10:46:46 PM  

pedrop357: We have people who have no problem keeping 18-20 year olds from buying alcohol and denying people under 18 the ability to make some of the most basic decisions, all based on neurology or some study related to it


No, it's not biology or neurology.  It's because kids are stupid.
This is the same.  Get your butt out of bed like everyone before you did.  You're not doing poorly because you're tired, you fail because you're dumb.

\school started at 06:30.
\\Work starts at 05:30.
\\\You'll get over it.
 
2013-04-27 10:50:44 PM  

Bedstead Polisher: Can I start work an hour and a half later too? I also need my sleep.


Does your job start at 7:00? My high school certainly did.
 
2013-04-27 10:55:09 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Summercat: This is... news to some people.

There are a few people (hi) who did better in the Period 1 and 0 classes, but I've *always* been at my best about 30 to 45 minutes after I wake up. This is weird and unusual.

But even today, I cannot 'make' myself go to sleep (without a heavy infusion of alcoholism). I do nto sleep until my body is exhausted, and even then my brain likes to go full speed.

Just laying in bed with teh covers on and the lights off has always meant I lay there bored out of my gourd for hours, and I've slapped myself for suggesting it to my cousin (He's 18/19 now).

I've always found the best way to fall asleep is to turn on some kind of TV or movie. It's gotta be something you've seen before. I've got Futurama, The Simpsons, and American Dad on a playlist on my laptop and just set it to play. I've seen every episode, but it gives my brain something to focus on without having to actually stay alert because I've already seen it. Just install a sleep timer so your computer will turn off (or use the one on the TV). I'm usually out within 10-20 minutes and have to fight if I want to stay up and watch the episode. Whereas it can take a couple hours if I'm just sitting in silence.


Doesn't work for me - that'll engage my mind, and after years of 'training' for it, I can force myself to stay awake if need be.

What does help? Sudoku. Srsly, Sudoku on my phone, I'm solving a hard puzzle, and then pass out.
 
2013-04-27 10:55:56 PM  

diaphoresis: Why bother with school.. Obama killed our economy.. just be welfare addicts...


10/10
 
2013-04-27 10:56:40 PM  

gadian: Oh noes! You have to get up and do something you don't want to do at a time you don't want to do it! Horrible! Bed time is 9pm. Every night. Go. Don't you dare try and make me tell you to get out of bed. You'll do it yourself or you'll be dropped off at school in your pajamas and have a shiat load of house cleaning to do when you get home.

/ITP


Because enforcing a stupid paradigm that we have scientifically determined is inefficient is more important than educating children as efficiently and effectively as possible?
 
2013-04-27 10:57:04 PM  

meanmutton: Bedstead Polisher: Can I start work an hour and a half later too? I also need my sleep.

Does your job start at 7:00? My high school certainly did.


So did mine.  Mine was Catholic, so the bus routes were earlier so the public school kids could start later.  No one complained.
 
2013-04-27 10:59:36 PM  

dletter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder

This is extremely common in teenagers.

Why my 2nd grader starts her school day at 9am, while high school starts at 7:30, it is crazy, and totally backwards.   My daughter is up at 6:30am as it is now, and I know she'll not want to wake up until 8am when she is 16.


Eh, I think I love you for linking that Wiki entry, which led me to one about Non-24-hour sleep-wake disorder, which I almost assuredly have. I've explained my symptoms to numerous doctors, and none of them had any answers. Non-24-hour sleep-wake disorder is it.
 
2013-04-27 11:00:34 PM  
Heres a crazy idea. Make the little #$%^&&* go to bed earlier.
 
2013-04-27 11:03:31 PM  
Summercat:

Doesn't work for me - that'll engage my mind, and after years of 'training' for it, I can force myself to stay awake if need be.

What does help? Sudoku. Srsly, Sudoku on my phone, I'm solving a hard puzzle, and then pass out.


I hear ya. For me, it takes Bejeweled (or the free equivalent).
 
2013-04-27 11:03:40 PM  

Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?


CSS, my sister goes to bed at 7 pm so she can be at work at 4 in the morning.
Props to anyone in the same boat.  It's doable but it causes a lot of inconveniences, like being less able to schedule social time with friends.
 
2013-04-27 11:08:20 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: dletter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder

This is extremely common in teenagers.

Why my 2nd grader starts her school day at 9am, while high school starts at 7:30, it is crazy, and totally backwards.   My daughter is up at 6:30am as it is now, and I know she'll not want to wake up until 8am when she is 16.

Eh, I think I love you for linking that Wiki entry, which led me to one about Non-24-hour sleep-wake disorder, which I almost assuredly have. I've explained my symptoms to numerous doctors, and none of them had any answers. Non-24-hour sleep-wake disorder is it.


Holy... This explains a few things.
 
2013-04-27 11:13:31 PM  

stuffy: Heres a crazy idea. Make the little #$%^&&* go to bed earlier.


Some of us are biologically incapable of going to bed earlier. If you have a normal eating schedule, imagine that someone told you the solution to your problem was to simply eat dinner earlier, regardless of whether you were hungry or not.

How much would you be able to eat when every internal feedback mechanism your body was saying that you weren't even hungry, so stop eating?
 
2013-04-27 11:15:10 PM  

stuffy: Heres a crazy idea. Make the little #$%^&&* go to bed earlier.


The other half of "teen sleep disorder" is that they can't do that. They have to stay up late and get up late.

We've already tried making them conform to an early schedule; the later schedule helps them learn better. The current system is good for "learnin' them just who is boss around here" but not good for learnin' in general.
 
2013-04-27 11:16:35 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: I've read about a couple of high schools that tried starting classes 90 minutes later.  Student performance improved.


Yep.... want to help the academic performance of a failing urban school..... move the start time to 9am, serve a healthy breakfast and lunch, install HEPA filters for the school's HVAC system, and have ample natural sunlight or full-spectrum lights (with a little UV) in every classroom. These changes won't turn the place around but they will get the needle moving in the right direction and are cheaper than improve teacher quality.
 
2013-04-27 11:16:36 PM  

ds615: pedrop357: We have people who have no problem keeping 18-20 year olds from buying alcohol and denying people under 18 the ability to make some of the most basic decisions, all based on neurology or some study related to it

No, it's not biology or neurology.  It's because kids are stupid.
This is the same.  Get your butt out of bed like everyone before you did.  You're not doing poorly because you're tired, you fail because you're dumb.

\school started at 06:30.
\\Work starts at 05:30.
\\\You'll get over it.


My job starts at 8a.  I would have to be paid A LOT more to have a 5:30a start time.
 
2013-04-27 11:18:08 PM  

Christian Bale: stuffy: Heres a crazy idea. Make the little #$%^&&* go to bed earlier.

The other half of "teen sleep disorder" is that they can't do that. They have to stay up late and get up late.

We've already tried making them conform to an early schedule; the later schedule helps them learn better. The current system is good for "learnin' them just who is boss around here" but not good for learnin' in general.


Unless your goal is to ensure a whole batch of kids don't learn much except they hate school. Which forcing them to go to sleep when they're not tired and making them go to school when they're sleepy is excellent for.
 
2013-04-27 11:23:16 PM  

mikefinch: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?

Am I crazy here in that I cannot fall asleep until my body tells me it's sleep time?

I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.

So much this -- i cant fall asleep till like 2AM usually. Its just how my body works. My sister chides me all the time and says 'have you tried just turning off the lights and closing your eyes?'

Yeah -- and it results in 3 hours staring into the dark while my mind tries to find new ways to make me feel bad about myself or make me feel foolish about my day. Honeslty -- its like a 1 way ticket to rumination land.

Every time someone suggests just going to bed earlier i want to punch them right in the crotch.

I had a 1 hour bus ride to school and it dropped me off first so it was a 5:30-6 AM wake up for me. Try telling a teenager to go to bed at 10pm. Find a teenager that COULD go to bed at 10pm.


Yup. I'm still convinced that lack of sleep caused me to be shorter than my dad or brother. There was some research about teenage sleep and height.
 
2013-04-27 11:27:57 PM  

Cyno01: Feral_and_Preposterous: So go to sleep earlier?

Circadian rhythm.


Mine seems to be running on Hawaiian time...
 
2013-04-27 11:29:58 PM  

pedrop357: My job starts at 8a. I would have to be paid A LOT more to have a 5:30a start time.


Bad economy. You just lost your job. Another one comes along paying the same after you have exhausted your savings but you have to get up earlier.

You were saying?
 
2013-04-27 11:32:30 PM  
I'm weird.  I can go to bed just about any hour of the night/morning, and get up when I need to, without setting an alarm.  For example, when I was in college, I didn't like late classes, so I took the classes early in the morning, so invariably my first class of the day would start at 8:30 a.m.  I like to give myself at least 2 hrs to get my shiat together and get going, so I'd get up at 6:30 every morning, even if I went to bed at 3 a.m.  I wouldn't need an alarm either, I would naturally wake up about 6 a.m. or so, and just lay there for half an hour.  Used to drive my boyfriend crazy, because he's the exact opposite of me, and preferred the later classes because he doesn't do mornings, then or now.

All throughout high school, I had to get up at 6 o'clock to be in school, at my desk by 8 o'clock when my homeroom teacher took attendance.  I went to private school, so we weren't bused; you had to either get a ride, drive yourself if you were old enough, or take public transportation, and while the city buses in Chicago are fairly reliable, you don't want to be nervously checking your watch or cell phone praying one shows up on time.  This is especially true in the winter when there can be hellish delays, depending on how paved the streets are.  Seeing as I had to get up at 6 a.m. every day, I usually went to bed about 9:30, 1o:oo.  It didn't bother me to go to bed that early or get up that early in the morning; it's a fact of life.  You get up early to go to school.  Get over it.  I got my own ass up, my parents didn't need to go in there and wake me up.
 
2013-04-27 11:33:40 PM  

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


7:30 will be a reasonable time for them to show up for work. If not earlier. Get used to it toots.
 
2013-04-27 11:36:33 PM  
I remember I was always tired as a teenager.
 
2013-04-27 11:38:47 PM  

dletter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder

This is extremely common in teenagers.

Why my 2nd grader starts her school day at 9am, while high school starts at 7:30, it is crazy, and totally backwards.   My daughter is up at 6:30am as it is now, and I know she'll not want to wake up until 8am when she is 16.


Yup. It kicked in hard for me as a teenager, so I was staying up until two or three am and being forced awake before seven. It will surprise no one that I was barely functioning on that schedule and the lack of sleep lead to some incredibly bad depression and my grades fell. Rather than recognizing my sleep had something to do with it, the doctor diagnosed me with ADHD and prescribed me amphetamines.

It took a really long time to get my head on straight after that, and I had to do a lot of research on my own to figure out what the hell was wrong with me.
 
2013-04-27 11:43:28 PM  
My oldest goes to a magnet high school that starts at 9 in the morning and ends at 4. She's much more cheerful about high school than she ever was about middle school, which started at 7:45 am. She does better with harder subjects and doesn't take naps when she comes home like she used to in middle school.

/yeah, yeah, a sample of one
 
2013-04-27 11:45:34 PM  

WTFDYW: Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.

7:30 will be a reasonable time for them to show up for work. If not earlier. Get used to it toots.


This may surprise you, but there are lot of jobs that don't start at 7:30am.

Also, our society has seen fit to to deny various rights and privileges to people under 18/21 based on questionable neurology studies.  It's only fair and/or right that we allow them to wake up a little later based on those same studies.
Unless those studies are bullshiat, in which case we may want to reexamine this idea of forbidding teens the option to leave school and pursue other interests just like adults can.
 
2013-04-27 11:46:42 PM  
First bell at my high school was 7:10 am.
It took 20 minutes to walk to school.
So, we had to exit the house at around 6:50 am
Meaning we had to get up around 6:20-6:30 am

// Fast forward to now, I get to work around 9:30am (except for that one damn day that I have an 8:00am conf cal with India)
// I used to get to work at 6:00am (to avoid traffic) but the morning traffic picked up to the point where it just wasn't worth it anymore.
// Now I go in for around 9:30 and leave around 6:30 (or later if the traffic is still high).
// left work around 9:00 once due to a county wide blackout making driving an effort in futility. Plus my wifi still worked thanks to the generators.
 
2013-04-27 11:51:19 PM  

WTFDYW: Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.

7:30 will be a reasonable time for them to show up for work. If not earlier. Get used to it toots.


Or get a college degree and don't, toots.

<--- rolls his engineer ass into work between 9am and 10am.
 
2013-04-27 11:53:05 PM  

CruJones: I've changed what time I wake up multiple times. it takes time, but eventually if you have to get up earlier, I naturally start falling asleep earlier. And after a while it's my new normal. And I have horrible sleep issues. Napping (while awesome) is the biggest enemy of a decent bedtime.


Actually for me its different -- my schedule changes depending on the season. In the winter i hibernate like a bear. My sleep schedule goes haywire and i'm a huge night owl. During the summers I wake up earlier and i go to bed earlier.

My job requires me to radio in weather every day without miss at 7AM -- so im in bed around midnight and i get up at 645 to do weather and calculations and then i make a snack and stretch and go back to bed for an hour. Then i'm perfect for the day. It sucks not being able to sleep in for even a single day but the quick nap in the morning is pretty keen. Napping on the job... i can make my own schedule regarding certain ways i do my day and as long as I nap near my radio and phone so people can contact me i'm free to do that.

The get up and do a few things than set a timer for an hour long nap works perfect for me. Even if its just an hour to slowly let my body come to. Sometimes when i wake up before i'm 'ready' my body goes into a panic attack.

I dont feel panicky or have anything to panic about but i just feel like im in shock or something. I need time to come out of sleep. I am so not a morning person.
 
2013-04-27 11:58:38 PM  
In all seriousness though, when the article is about sleep needs of teenagers, why do we get a bunch of anecdotal evidence from adults about their sleep patterns as adults?

You don't need to "practice" getting up for work at 7:30 as a teenager, as you age that just becomes easier to do on its own.
 
2013-04-27 11:59:10 PM  
ITT: Old, bitter geezers who won't entertain a possibly better solution to a problem simply because they had to suffer when they were young. A shame you can't all die already.
 
2013-04-28 12:00:39 AM  

pedrop357: ds615: pedrop357: We have people who have no problem keeping 18-20 year olds from buying alcohol and denying people under 18 the ability to make some of the most basic decisions, all based on neurology or some study related to it

No, it's not biology or neurology.  It's because kids are stupid.
This is the same.  Get your butt out of bed like everyone before you did.  You're not doing poorly because you're tired, you fail because you're dumb.

\school started at 06:30.
\\Work starts at 05:30.
\\\You'll get over it.

My job starts at 8a.  I would have to be paid A LOT more to have a 5:30a start time.


I did it for a summer during college.  It's actually really nice.  5:30 start time means 2:00 off time, which means that by 3:00, you're basically ready to do whatever you're doing that evening and you can beat the rush.  You're going to bed by 8:00, but I much prefer it to my current schedule, where I wake up at 9, show up at 10, and get off at 8:00 or later.  It's just way easier to run errands and do things (plus you never have to deal with traffic unless your city really, really hates infrastructure spending*).

The only thing is that it HAS to be physical.  If you want me to get up at 5 AM and then sit in a chair, I'll basically nap until 10:00, and then start working.  If I'm running a couple miles doing hard labor, and getting the blood flowing, I'll be totally fine.

*On a related note, why does every West Coast city (plus Chicago) hate infrastructure spending?  Every single one has rush hour start at like 3:00 and go until 9:00.  I got caught in bumper to bumper traffic at 8:30 last night where it took me 30 minutes to go 3 miles.

/Of course, if given a chance, I'll naturally go to bed at 6 AM and sleep in until noon or later.  That's been the case ever since one of my college professors made all his projects due at 9 AM.
 
2013-04-28 12:04:59 AM  

Counter_Intelligent: ITT: Old, bitter geezers who won't entertain a possibly better solution to a problem simply because they had to suffer when they were young. A shame you can't all die already.


Some of them are my age, and highschool was just 10 years ago for me D:

/I don't think I'm liked by my school, nothing coming up about Reunion has been mentioned to me.

//Good, because I didn't like most of the people there.
 
2013-04-28 12:18:55 AM  

EngineerAU: Humans naturally develop a different sleep cycle when entering the teenage years. Given all the other changes happening to the body during that period, this shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-teenage-mind/201202/sleepy-t ee ns


Yeah, all the literature says that teenagers are running a different clock.  Of course the issue is that mom and day want the 16 year hold by the time the 8 year old gets home at 3:30, that way they don't need to handle child care.
 
2013-04-28 12:31:11 AM  

Kiwimann: WTFDYW: Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.

7:30 will be a reasonable time for them to show up for work. If not earlier. Get used to it toots.

Or get a college degree and don't, toots.

<--- rolls his engineer ass into work between 9am and 10am.


This. 7:30 is farmer/ 7/11 McD worker time.
 
2013-04-28 12:35:48 AM  
...my day...uphill...in snow...both ways...
 
2013-04-28 12:40:51 AM  
ITT:

Authoritarians AKA Morning People disparage "lazy" Night people for having a circadian rhythm different than their own.

My job starts at 7:30, even though I spend most of my time working with suppliers on the west coast and I am in the eastern time zone. All because our plant manager is a morning person and wants all salaried people to follow the same hours as 1st shift line workers.
 
2013-04-28 12:43:02 AM  
Let them sleep in till noon, then go to school until 8 pm.

That will keep those damn kids off my lawn.
 
2013-04-28 12:45:21 AM  
"I can't go to sleep earlier!"

Bull. That's a sign you don't do enough during a day. It's easy as hell to reset your clock so long as you don't waste your day guzzling dew and sitting on your ass.
 
2013-04-28 12:51:47 AM  
Try a good want before
 
2013-04-28 12:56:30 AM  

Terrible Old Man: "I can't go to sleep earlier!"

Bull. That's a sign you don't do enough during a day. It's easy as hell to reset your clock so long as you don't waste your day guzzling dew and sitting on your ass.


No, it may be a sign that we are smarter than you.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/20 10 05/why-night-owls-are-more-intelligent-morning-larks
 
2013-04-28 12:56:36 AM  

Active introvert: It's all relative. If they start school later then they would go to bed later thus getting the same amount of sleep. Why don't the parents take the phones, turn of the Xbox and computer and tell the little whiners to STFU and go to bed.Life sucks. get use to doing things you don't want to do.


Because, as you would know if you took the time to do a ten-minute Google search on the topic, teenagers are hardwired to sleep from eleven PM to about eight or so AM. And yes, it is in fact biological.

/Seriously, I knew this in high school, it's not like this is breaking news.
 
2013-04-28 01:06:08 AM  

Summercat: Counter_Intelligent: ITT: Old, bitter geezers who won't entertain a possibly better solution to a problem simply because they had to suffer when they were young. A shame you can't all die already.

Some of them are my age, and highschool was just 10 years ago for me D:

/I don't think I'm liked by my school, nothing coming up about Reunion has been mentioned to me.

//Good, because I didn't like most of the people there.


I'm in the same boat, but I think it's because I'm not on facebook. I bet that's where all the planning goes on.

/I guess I could just ask someone...
 
2013-04-28 01:11:45 AM  

Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.


Bullshiat.  Stop farking around on the internet and playing video games and shiat so you can get to sleep earlier.  Get up, go to school, do your homework and stop biatching.

Adults constantly making excuses for kids like this is the reason why it's close to impossible to find anyone under 30 years old to work for you that doesn't act like a spoiled little biatch or is a complete farking moron.
 
2013-04-28 01:13:01 AM  

Terrible Old Man: "I can't go to sleep earlier!"

Bull. That's a sign you don't do enough during a day. It's easy as hell to reset your clock so long as you don't waste your day guzzling dew and sitting on your ass.


I can do plenty during the day. If anything i get re-energized around 10pm and im still up and about for a few hours. Restless. I get creative at night. I can pound out pages of writing at 1am where during the day i had writers block. Some people thrive on the night.

I dont like the idea that i have to mash my body functions into some unhealthy schedule when it makes me feel like crap? You have to know what you can do wand what you cant do in life. If you cant run your body on someone else's schedule then dont. Do whats healthy for you and what makes you feel productive. Some times you gotta cut a hard path.

you can fight your sleep pattern or you can fight your schedule. You can change your schedule but changing your sleep pattern is really tough for some people and it rocks your body with cortisol and other stress hormones. That shiat will age you inside and out.
 
2013-04-28 01:18:58 AM  

meanmutton: Bedstead Polisher: Can I start work an hour and a half later too? I also need my sleep.

Does your job start at 7:00? My high school certainly did.


Sometimes.... Sometimes 0800, sometimes I'm rolling at 0430.

Welcome to adulthood.
 
2013-04-28 01:35:09 AM  
oversleeping causes depression
 
2013-04-28 01:45:43 AM  

prjindigo: oversleeping causes depression


undersleeping causes depression
 
2013-04-28 01:57:47 AM  

scottydoesntknow: Summercat: This is... news to some people.

There are a few people (hi) who did better in the Period 1 and 0 classes, but I've *always* been at my best about 30 to 45 minutes after I wake up. This is weird and unusual.

But even today, I cannot 'make' myself go to sleep (without a heavy infusion of alcoholism). I do nto sleep until my body is exhausted, and even then my brain likes to go full speed.

Just laying in bed with teh covers on and the lights off has always meant I lay there bored out of my gourd for hours, and I've slapped myself for suggesting it to my cousin (He's 18/19 now).

I've always found the best way to fall asleep is to turn on some kind of TV or movie. It's gotta be something you've seen before. I've got Futurama, The Simpsons, and American Dad on a playlist on my laptop and just set it to play. I've seen every episode, but it gives my brain something to focus on without having to actually stay alert because I've already seen it. Just install a sleep timer so your computer will turn off (or use the one on the TV). I'm usually out within 10-20 minutes and have to fight if I want to stay up and watch the episode. Whereas it can take a couple hours if I'm just sitting in silence.


I used to run through maps for FPS's. I was scary-good.

Now, it's History docs on youtube.

Insta-sleep.
 
2013-04-28 02:00:06 AM  

ds615: pedrop357: We have people who have no problem keeping 18-20 year olds from buying alcohol and denying people under 18 the ability to make some of the most basic decisions, all based on neurology or some study related to it

No, it's not biology or neurology.  It's because kids are stupid.
This is the same.  Get your butt out of bed like everyone before you did.  You're not doing poorly because you're tired, you fail because you're dumb.

\school started at 06:30.
\\Work starts at 05:30.
\\\You'll get over it.


What do you expect from kids that are treated like criminals?
 
2013-04-28 02:00:59 AM  

Ontos: meanmutton: Bedstead Polisher: Can I start work an hour and a half later too? I also need my sleep.

Does your job start at 7:00? My high school certainly did.

Sometimes.... Sometimes 0800, sometimes I'm rolling at 0430.

Welcome to adulthood.


I teach high school, and I had a kid email me asking for an extension on homework because it was his birthday.

/Fark 'em.
//Double-fark the parents that allow that shiat!
 
2013-04-28 02:06:06 AM  
How about this before changing school times,  although it should have no effect to parents because children by high school should be able to manage on their own.

How about no televisions, computers,  video games in their bedroom and when it is bed time all phones handed in.

I think the major problem is many of these adolescents are staying up for hours texting etc after their bed time.

If they could only read they would promptly fall asleep.

Also if your child not getting the academic marks he or she is capable of due to lack of sleep,  please remember that teenage depression and suicide has been linked to sleep deprivation.
 
2013-04-28 02:08:57 AM  

PsiChick: Active introvert: It's all relative. If they start school later then they would go to bed later thus getting the same amount of sleep. Why don't the parents take the phones, turn of the Xbox and computer and tell the little whiners to STFU and go to bed.Life sucks. get use to doing things you don't want to do.

Because, as you would know if you took the time to do a ten-minute Google search on the topic, teenagers are hardwired to sleep from eleven PM to about eight or so AM. And yes, it is in fact biological.

/Seriously, I knew this in high school, it's not like this is breaking news.


Sorry, I work nights. I'm sure a ten minute Google search will tell you how much biology I'm fighting. I do it because I have to so I can keep my job. My boss doesn't ask me if I'm tired. If I don't get my work done I can't tell him that my biological rhythms are off. Why should teens get a pass? My point is that in life, we have to do things that are unpleasant to get what we want
 
2013-04-28 02:09:27 AM  

Sim Tree: BarkingUnicorn: I've read about a couple of high schools that tried starting classes 90 minutes later.  Student performance improved.

I've seen some of this, too, and I'm all for it.

Schools commonly wonder why kids tend to sleep through first period when they start the school day at 7;15, forcing the bus to pick them up at six prompt, forcing them to wake up at 5:30 when there's still stars out, expecting them to start to bed at 7:30 when the sun's still up.

/When I was a kid, we woke up the previous night, after going to bed the previous day, and today, no one believes it.
// Then our father cut us in two with the breadknife.


I live in Australia and our school days have always started at 9am.   I agree 7:15 is just bloody stupid.  If that is true it needs to change, but if not and they start at 9am I would look towards making sure you rid your children's sleep areas of any electronic and communication devices when it is bed time.
 
2013-04-28 02:14:24 AM  
I use to leave for work at 5:30 am. I felt terrible for the kids I saw waiting for the bus when I would be leaving the neighborhood. Of course it doesnt help that some of these kids have to endure 1-2 hour bus rides thanks to forced desegregation.
 
2013-04-28 02:15:38 AM  

Guest: How about no televisions, computers, video games in their bedroom and when it is bed time all phones handed in.


k -- but when i was a kid i was on a rural farm with no computers video games and a rotary phone and a television i was only allowed to watch for 1 hour a day.

I didnt do enough during the day? I was playing football and sweeping grain bins and going on walks in the woods with my dog.

Its not always technology.
 
2013-04-28 02:24:14 AM  

Active introvert: Sorry, I work nights. I'm sure a ten minute Google search will tell you how much biology I'm fighting. I do it because I have to so I can keep my job. My boss doesn't ask me if I'm tired. If I don't get my work done I can't tell him that my biological rhythms are off. Why should teens get a pass? My point is that in life, we have to do things that are unpleasant to get what we want


Yeah -- you can do it so everybody should have to otherwise they must be some sort of puss.

You work nights -- could you LIVE on the night shift. Like every day? And not by choice? We have to do unpleasant things to get what we want sure -- but I dont think having to walk around like i have a mental handicap for half a day is ultimately going to let me thrive at anything i choose to do.
 
2013-04-28 02:28:29 AM  

mikefinch: Guest: How about no televisions, computers, video games in their bedroom and when it is bed time all phones handed in.

k -- but when i was a kid i was on a rural farm with no computers video games and a rotary phone and a television i was only allowed to watch for 1 hour a day.

I didnt do enough during the day? I was playing football and sweeping grain bins and going on walks in the woods with my dog.

Its not always technology.


A lot of the time it is  and you put a child in a boring bedroom with nothing to do but read a book many well, despite protests that this will never work,  many will be a sleep 30 to 45 minutes later.  Also if they don't sleep they are still resting.     As  a parent I know and I believe most parents know the excuses of not being tired and I can't sleep don't really pan out when you take away the things that are stimulating children and teens.
 
2013-04-28 02:51:07 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: I'm tired right now, and yet, if I got into bed and filled the room with soothing white noise, I would not fall asleep until my body said "Yep, you're exhausted now. Godspeed." I'm not a person who can just "go to sleep earlier." It's mind-blowing to me that other people can do that on any level. My body sleeps when it wants to, be it at two in the afternoon or four in the morning.

i847.photobucket.com

 
2013-04-28 03:07:30 AM  
When did this nonsense start? I graduated in 1978. All the way through elementary and high school, classes started at 9 a.m. Most of us were reasonably awake at that time of day. What moron thought 7:30 a.m. would be a good idea?
 
2013-04-28 03:12:37 AM  

scottydoesntknow: OgreMagi: WhoopAssWayne:
//source: wife has doctorate in education, has studied this very thing, and has some opinions, which means I have some opinions.

Has she ever actually taught in a real school?  Because if she has not, then her doctorate and opinion are completely worthless.

[l.wigflip.com image 586x439]



Indeed; who needs years of research & statistics covering (probably) thousands of schools when you can collect some anecdotes first-hand?
 
2013-04-28 03:13:45 AM  

bingethinker: When did this nonsense start? I graduated in 1978. All the way through elementary and high school, classes started at 9 a.m. Most of us were reasonably awake at that time of day. What moron thought 7:30 a.m. would be a good idea?


The moron who has to get elementary, middle, and high school students all to their respective schools with a single set of school buses (and doesn't want to buy more buses).
 
2013-04-28 03:24:34 AM  

mikefinch: prjindigo: oversleeping causes depression

undersleeping causes depression


Being a worthless piece of shiat causes depression
 
2013-04-28 03:28:09 AM  

jshine: bingethinker: When did this nonsense start? I graduated in 1978. All the way through elementary and high school, classes started at 9 a.m. Most of us were reasonably awake at that time of day. What moron thought 7:30 a.m. would be a good idea?

The moron who has to get elementary, middle, and high school students all to their respective schools with a single set of school buses (and doesn't want to buy more buses).


This.  Getting 12,000 kids to school isn't easy.  It's a lot easier when you can make it into 3 seperate waves.

/Even with student drivers, parents driving kids in (because the 6:15 pickup time was stupid), walkers (and the walk radius was a mile and a half in a 6x6 district with 3 high schools), and after school activities, my middle school had 8 buses and my high school had 10.
 
2013-04-28 03:44:07 AM  

YouPeopleAreCrazy: Quaker:

From the studies that I can remember reading (and plenty of anecdotal evidence), that's exactly how it should be. Based on all kinds of neurological development stuff it's much easier for young children to wake up early and be alert than it is for teenagers.

This is probably true.
Now convince Mom to do the work to make this happen.


What extra work would there really be though? Parents would have to do the same things to get their kids ready in the morning whether it's at 7 AM or 9 AM. It might be a bit of a hassle to have to deal with it two hours earlier all of a sudden, but they would have to deal with it when the kids get older and have to leave earlier anyway, and then it will be much harder since teenagers generally aren't morning people.

Also, I would think it would make better sense for households where both parents work. They could make sure that their younger kids get to school alright before they have to leave for work.
 
2013-04-28 04:20:38 AM  

jshine: bingethinker: When did this nonsense start? I graduated in 1978. All the way through elementary and high school, classes started at 9 a.m. Most of us were reasonably awake at that time of day. What moron thought 7:30 a.m. would be a good idea?

The moron who has to get elementary, middle, and high school students all to their respective schools with a single set of school buses (and doesn't want to buy more buses).


Maybe invert them.  All the little kids who don't seem to mind getting up early go at 6:30, then the middle school at 7:30, followed by the high school at 8:30
 
2013-04-28 07:39:04 AM  
The reason high school starts at 7:30 and elementary school starts at 9 is because of child care issues, hands down. They want the elementary kids to go to school and come home within Mom/Dad's work times and older sister/brother's school times so they don't have to pay for child care. I haven't heard of any other reason that high schoolers shouldn't get the early slot when research is bearing out doing so other than child care timing problems.

/I hate children below the age of 12
//I kinda hate them above the age of 12, too
///Even hate my own kids at times, yes
 
2013-04-28 08:11:51 AM  
Love so many poster's tone in this thread.

Article: Because of differences in sleep patterns for teenagers, they perform measurably better academically with a slightly later start time.

Foamies: AAAAH!!! Feckin teens!  If I have to get up at 5:00 am to make the donuts, then so should they.  5 am start time for those lazy feckers!!! RRAAAAH!!

Willing to bet that most of those who are so vehemently opposed to teens starting their first class at 9 or 10am are in their twenties.  Most people who've actually been adults for a few years would tend towards the attitude of "As long as I don't have to pay more for it, what the hell do I care what time they start their classes".
 
2013-04-28 08:19:38 AM  

Despair of the Cheese: The reason high school starts at 7:30 and elementary school starts at 9 is because of child care issues, hands down. They want the elementary kids to go to school and come home within Mom/Dad's work times and older sister/brother's school times so they don't have to pay for child care. I haven't heard of any other reason that high schoolers shouldn't get the early slot when research is bearing out doing so other than child care timing problems.

/I hate children below the age of 12
//I kinda hate them above the age of 12, too
///Even hate my own kids at times, yes


Meh.  I don't actually know that many families that have a child in high school and another child in elementary school.  Yes, for sure there are some, but most families I know have 1 or 2 kids and the ones with 2 kids are only a few years apart (and they don't need the high schooler to babysit the middle schooler).

I think the bus schedule is the more common reason (There are some states that try to save money by having the same bus pick up and drop off the older kids first and then go back for the elementary school kids).  The states I've lived in used different busses, so they didn't have to stagger schedules like this.  My own earliest bus schedule was for middle school, but only because I was bussed far away for a math program.  For my own kids, their elementary schedule sucked (they had to catch the bus at 7am), because the school district is too cheap to run a sufficient number of busses (their school started at a reasonable time, but the bus drove all over creation picking up kids).  We're home schooling for now though.  More work for the wife, but it's worked out about 1000 times better than public school nonsense.
 
2013-04-28 08:25:12 AM  
Is subby serious? This doesn't read like the writing of a high school student.
 
2013-04-28 08:40:02 AM  
Local government schools changed their schedules to have high school start and finish later a few years ago. The problem was the middle schools were now letting out earlier than high schools, and those kids didn't have older brothers & sisters to watch them. Schools had to go back to the early high school schedule because too many middle school girls were getting knocked.
 
2013-04-28 09:20:06 AM  

Lsherm: meanmutton: Bedstead Polisher: Can I start work an hour and a half later too? I also need my sleep.

Does your job start at 7:00? My high school certainly did.

So did mine.  Mine was Catholic, so the bus routes were earlier so the public school kids could start later.  No one complained.


You didn't complain? Bullshiat.

My school, catholic as well, started at 0800. The bus was at 0645, on the dot. So, up at 0600 at the latest, all so they had that extra hour ( my stop was second to last) to drop off the public school kids and then us at the high school.

Waiting around for an extra hour? You bet your ass we complained.

Then again, I complain about the inefficiency of many early morning rituals. One rotation I was on in med school demanded you be there, on the floor and ready to see patients, at 0600. The lab didn't even come by until 0800 for morning blood work, and you really couldn't do shiat until 0800. Still, because someone decided on 0600, 0600 it was. Idiotic.
 
2013-04-28 10:51:26 AM  

Active introvert: Why should teens get a pass? My point is that in life, we have to do things that are unpleasant to get what we want


I'm unhappy and so everybody else should be too.
 
2013-04-28 11:52:55 AM  

bingethinker: When did this nonsense start? I graduated in 1978. All the way through elementary and high school, classes started at 9 a.m. Most of us were reasonably awake at that time of day. What moron thought 7:30 a.m. would be a good idea?




7:15 here, along with a 40 minute walk to school.

farking hate alarms and do not own one now.
 
2013-04-28 01:03:05 PM  

Sword and Shield: Lsherm: meanmutton: Bedstead Polisher: Can I start work an hour and a half later too? I also need my sleep.

Does your job start at 7:00? My high school certainly did.

So did mine.  Mine was Catholic, so the bus routes were earlier so the public school kids could start later.  No one complained.

You didn't complain? Bullshiat.

My school, catholic as well, started at 0800. The bus was at 0645, on the dot. So, up at 0600 at the latest, all so they had that extra hour ( my stop was second to last) to drop off the public school kids and then us at the high school.

Waiting around for an extra hour? You bet your ass we complained.

Then again, I complain about the inefficiency of many early morning rituals. One rotation I was on in med school demanded you be there, on the floor and ready to see patients, at 0600. The lab didn't even come by until 0800 for morning blood work, and you really couldn't do shiat until 0800. Still, because someone decided on 0600, 0600 it was. Idiotic.


Well if my bus route was done up all stupid ass like yours, I'd complain too.  Our bus picked up all the Catholic school kids and dropped them off, then ran another route for the public school because the public school started later.  There was no overlap for the kids.
 
2013-04-28 02:41:40 PM  

pedrop357: WTFDYW: Kiwimann: Classes should start at a reasonable time.

7:30 am is not reasonable.

7:30 will be a reasonable time for them to show up for work. If not earlier. Get used to it toots.

This may surprise you, but there are lot of jobs that don't start at 7:30am.

Also, our society has seen fit to to deny various rights and privileges to people under 18/21 based on questionable neurology studies.  It's only fair and/or right that we allow them to wake up a little later based on those same studies.
Unless those studies are bullshiat, in which case we may want to reexamine this idea of forbidding teens the option to leave school and pursue other interests just like adults can.


That last part... It hits close to home. The last few years I just notice more and more that school did not prepare me for my career and I was wasting time I could have used getting private instruction in areas that are germane. There are so many skills that traditional schools don't teach and which I now don't have as a result. It's depressing.
 
2013-04-28 03:56:42 PM  

Despair of the Cheese: My oldest goes to a magnet high school that starts at 9 in the morning and ends at 4. She's much more cheerful about high school than she ever was about middle school, which started at 7:45 am. She does better with harder subjects and doesn't take naps when she comes home like she used to in middle school.

/yeah, yeah, a sample of one


I took naps all the time during High School and I was stressed as fark trying to keep my grades up.

Senior year was the WORST, up at 6am, came home at 2, took nap, worked until at least 10pm.

The problem is researchers need to spin this as helping parents and "preventing teenage mischief" with "less unsupervised afternoon hours".
 
2013-04-28 07:51:57 PM  
My kids are fourth generation of parents who work nights.  I work nights because it is more natural for me.  My kids have screwed up circadian rhythms like I did.  The daily school schedule is not natural for them and very difficult.  Consequently they are often late to school or miss days.  Of course the school has a problem with that.

My problem with school is; worry about their grades, not their attendance.  Despite the missed class time both my kids got great grades and my oldest graduated H.S. a 1/2 year early.

Public education is more than ever about teaching conformity.
 
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