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(NBC News)   Service guarantees citizenship...Would you like to know more?   (usnews.nbcnews.com) divider line 99
    More: Cool, Center for Immigration Studies, naturalizations, temporary visas, Mark Krikorian, Army National Guard, USCIS, service guarantee, basic training  
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4563 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Apr 2013 at 9:44 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-27 08:10:59 PM
I'm from Buenos Aires, and I say naturalize 'em all!
 
2013-04-27 08:34:51 PM
I'd like to see us start a 2 year mandatory service in the US.

Many 1st world countries do it and it's proved to be a boon to a younger generation that more and more are without direction or understanding outside of their own societal niche.

Make it a non-deployable assignment and use the troops for civil projects and to supplement the 50 Nat. Guards.

It would give kids from the ghetto to the farm to the upper crust an opportunity and equalizing perspective they'd never have had otherwise. I think it would go a long way to jump starting the civic mindedness that we will need to start fixing so many of our social ailments.

/THE ONLY GOOD BUG IS A DEAD BUG
 
2013-04-27 08:58:03 PM

MurphyMurphy: I'd like to see us start a 2 year mandatory service in the US.

It would give kids from the ghetto to the farm to the upper crust an opportunity and equalizing perspective they'd never have had otherwise. I think it would go a long way to jump starting the civic mindedness that we will need to start fixing so many of our social ailments.


I see the rich finding some way to furlough it... forever.

But I would seriously like to see this. 1 year, 2 year... stipend, work experience... that would be good.

\LVC volunteer '94
\\ It was awesome
\\\ slashies for service!
 
2013-04-27 08:59:50 PM

MurphyMurphy: I'd like to see us start a 2 year mandatory service in the US.

Many 1st world countries do it and it's proved to be a boon to a younger generation that more and more are without direction or understanding outside of their own societal niche.

Make it a non-deployable assignment and use the troops for civil projects and to supplement the 50 Nat. Guards.

It would give kids from the ghetto to the farm to the upper crust an opportunity and equalizing perspective they'd never have had otherwise. I think it would go a long way to jump starting the civic mindedness that we will need to start fixing so many of our social ailments.

/THE ONLY GOOD BUG IS A DEAD BUG


All of this
 
2013-04-27 09:03:55 PM
Launched via a 2002  executive order by George W. Bush the program lets green-card holders who enlist in the U.S. armed services bypass the typical five-year residency rule and apply immediately for citizenship at no fee.

[okaywiththis]

But if global events transpire that compel the branches to rapidly expand their ranks, he also can imagine a scenario in which the military perhaps loosens the rules, allowing foreigners abroad to enlist and serve by dangling citizenship as "their compensation."

Yes, imagining bad things happening because of immigration is kinda what this guy does all day long over at his anti-immigration think tank.

He's not very good at it.
 
2013-04-27 09:46:28 PM
Heinlein did this back in the 50s.
 
2013-04-27 09:46:38 PM
Didn't I see this scene in "Gangs of New York", where immigrants arrived to see two tables side by side at the docks. One had applications to become US citizens, and the table beside it was a Union recruitment officer strong-arming the new Americans into signing up.
 
2013-04-27 09:51:03 PM
You know who ELSE was ready to die?
ionetheurbandaily.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-27 09:53:50 PM

TV's Vinnie: Didn't I see this scene in "Gangs of New York", where immigrants arrived to see two tables side by side at the docks. One had applications to become US citizens, and the table beside it was a Union recruitment officer strong-arming the new Americans into signing up.


I make all my policy decisions based on my vague memories of what might have happened in movies.
 
2013-04-27 09:53:54 PM

MurphyMurphy: I'd like to see us start a 2 year mandatory service in the US.

Many 1st world countries do it and it's proved to be a boon to a younger generation that more and more are without direction or understanding outside of their own societal niche.

Make it a non-deployable assignment and use the troops for civil projects and to supplement the 50 Nat. Guards.

It would give kids from the ghetto to the farm to the upper crust an opportunity and equalizing perspective they'd never have had otherwise. I think it would go a long way to jump starting the civic mindedness that we will need to start fixing so many of our social ailments.

/THE ONLY GOOD BUG IS A DEAD BUG




So a slave army, then? Not only a loss of individual autonomy, but undercutting the wages and work opportunities for everyone else. That will end well.
 
2013-04-27 09:55:22 PM
Down for this. In cases of conscientious objectors, drive a desk or have them do local service.

/would have put her money where her mouth is, but she was denied due to the psoriasis
//brother serves, so stfu
 
2013-04-27 09:55:28 PM
Some of the best Marines that I served with were immigrants, and a majority of them were squad/team leaders. Not only were they some of the best Marines that I met, but they're some of the best people I know.
 
2013-04-27 09:58:40 PM

MurphyMurphy: I'd like to see us start a 2 year mandatory service in the US.


But that would be "Citizenship guarantees service" rather than "Service guarantees citizenship."
 
2013-04-27 10:05:43 PM
i47.tinypic.com

"That document makes you a citizen.  This one makes you a private in the Union Army.  Now go fight for your country."
 
2013-04-27 10:07:05 PM
lol people think desperation is bravery
 
2013-04-27 10:09:40 PM

jaytkay: TV's Vinnie: Didn't I see this scene in "Gangs of New York", where immigrants arrived to see two tables side by side at the docks. One had applications to become US citizens, and the table beside it was a Union recruitment officer strong-arming the new Americans into signing up.

I make all my policy decisions based on my vague memories of what might have happened in movies.


That's why I always shoot down escape pods, even if there are no life signs aboard.

/I could've saved the Empire!
 
2013-04-27 10:10:44 PM
Launched via a 2002 the program lets green-card holders who enlist in the U.S. armed services bypass the typical five-year residency rule and apply immediately for citizenship at no fee.

There's the relevant details.  You have to already have a green card, and you're only shortening your time to full citizenship by five years.

Barring the fast-track of speaking the language of a country we're at war with (and don't have enough translators for) or you're the married spouse of a citizen - you're still looking at several years and probably several thousand dollars just to get to the green card level.

And you know what?  Immigrants make the best citizens anyway.  Me - I popped out of the right crotch.  Some illegal immigrant from Mexico wanted to get into the country enough to walk across a desert.  Some guy from China wanted in enough to spend a few weeks locked in a shipping container.  You think those guys won't be able to figure out a way survive and thrive here?  You think they won't put enough sweat into it?
 
2013-04-27 10:11:07 PM
I have more respect for these foreigners who enlist in our military than I do for weasels like Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh, and Ted Nugent...

/ FTA: the comparison to the Roman Empire is a troubling one, however
// hope we can keep the armed forces culturally "American" centuries from now...instead of repeating the Roman mistake...
 
2013-04-27 10:14:27 PM
MurphyMurphy: Make it a non-deployable assignment

Make it fully-deployable so the public has less of an interest in war mongering.
 
2013-04-27 10:15:24 PM
Does it guarantee dual citizenship or the kind of citizenship inferred by the oath of citizenship?
 
2013-04-27 10:20:24 PM

thisispete: So a slave army, then?


If it's good enough for Astapor it's good enough for us.
 
2013-04-27 10:23:10 PM

jaytkay: TV's Vinnie: Didn't I see this scene in "Gangs of New York", where immigrants arrived to see two tables side by side at the docks. One had applications to become US citizens, and the table beside it was a Union recruitment officer strong-arming the new Americans into signing up.

I make all my policy decisions based on my vague memories of what might have happened in movies.


Congratulations, you're a Republican! Any wonder their savior is Reagan?
 
2013-04-27 10:26:24 PM
Nothing but big ups for folks that join the military in the hopes of becoming citizens and maybe getting to bring their families with them. We should follow the French foreign legion model.

I know, I know, it would never get past a few back and forth emails if you described it that way though.

I'm very wary about the concept of "mandatory service" though. Maybe if the "service" encompassed many kind of public service, and not just military. Forcing every child in America into a giant slave army doesn't seem very much like Freedom.
 
2013-04-27 10:29:16 PM

thisispete: So a slave army, then? Not only a loss of individual autonomy, but undercutting the wages and work opportunities for everyone else. That will end well.


How exactly is the military different than (non chattel) slavery? If you try to escape (go AWOL) they can hunt you down and imprison you.
 
2013-04-27 10:39:00 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: I have more respect for these foreigners who enlist in our military than I do for weasels like Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh, and Ted Nugent...

/ FTA: the comparison to the Roman Empire is a troubling one, however
// hope we can keep the armed forces culturally "American" centuries from now...instead of repeating the Roman mistake...


I would suggest the Roman Empire analogy would be a more apt cautionary tale if we were talking about privatizing security contracts among the military al'a Academi nee Xe nee Blackwater but there is some legitimate concern there as well.
 
2013-04-27 10:39:52 PM

neongoats: Nothing but big ups for folks that join the military in the hopes of becoming citizens and maybe getting to bring their families with them. We should follow the French foreign legion model.

I know, I know, it would never get past a few back and forth emails if you described it that way though.

I'm very wary about the concept of "mandatory service" though. Maybe if the "service" encompassed many kind of public service, and not just military. Forcing every child in America into a giant slave army doesn't seem very much like Freedom.


I think there would also need to be a fair bit of flexibility as to when you have to serve. For instance, as someone who stayed in school through to a PhD, I'd rather not have taken a break for two years of service and push getting out of school that much farther away. But I would be alright if the service requirement could be fulfilled by getting a STEM PhD and going on to work in a government lab. It still contributes to the country, and helps transition graduates into the private sector.

/on the other hand, I would be thrilled if I could get a job in a government lab at all, service requirement or no.
 
2013-04-27 10:40:48 PM

silo123j: But I would seriously like to see this. 1 year, 2 year... stipend, work experience... that would be good.


Learning how to properly handle a firearm. Learning that firearms aren't sentient, malevolent beasts. Learning discipline.
 
2013-04-27 10:40:55 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: I have more respect for these foreigners who enlist in our military than I do for weasels like Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh, and Ted Nugent...

/ FTA: the comparison to the Roman Empire is a troubling one, however
// hope we can keep the armed forces culturally "American" centuries from now...instead of repeating the Roman mistake...


Why would it be troubling to compare the US to the Roman Empire?  Even if you completely discount the 500 years of republic based government, the Roman Empire still existed for twice as long as the USA has.  It would be such a pity for this country was guaranteed to hang around until at least sometime after the 2200's.
 
2013-04-27 10:43:31 PM
The new mercenaries.  Create a desperate underclass so there will always be sufficient cannon fodder to feed the capitalist war machine.
 
2013-04-27 10:46:22 PM

runwiz: The new mercenaries.  Create a desperate underclass so there will always be sufficient cannon fodder to feed the capitalist war machine.


you communist motherf......

Um, you might be right.....
 
2013-04-27 10:46:39 PM

HairBolus: thisispete: So a slave army, then? Not only a loss of individual autonomy, but undercutting the wages and work opportunities for everyone else. That will end well.

How exactly is the military different than (non chattel) slavery? If you try to escape (go AWOL) they can hunt you down and imprison you.


Support your troops!
 
2013-04-27 10:52:07 PM

ultraholland: MurphyMurphy: Make it a non-deployable assignment

Make it fully-deployable so the public has less of an interest in war mongering.


But according to some of the campaign ads in 2004 joining the military will... completely destroy your life so you had better make sure Bush isn't reelected or you're going to be drafted!
 
2013-04-27 10:52:39 PM

Snapper Carr: thisispete: So a slave army, then?

If it's good enough for Astapor it's good enough for us.


Until you meet a blond with dragons . . .
 
2013-04-27 10:56:03 PM

runwiz: The new mercenaries.  Create a desperate underclass so there will always be sufficient cannon fodder to feed the capitalist war machine.


That's nothing new.  Go to any rural high school in America.  You'll find that a large percentage of the best and brightest students enlist because it's the only guaranteed job they can get with decent pay and future prospects.
 
2013-04-27 10:57:00 PM
I love fark. The headline and first couple posts have made my night. Well, that and Sex with my wife. But it was close
 
2013-04-27 11:00:38 PM

HighOnCraic: jaytkay: TV's Vinnie: Didn't I see this scene in "Gangs of New York", where immigrants arrived to see two tables side by side at the docks. One had applications to become US citizens, and the table beside it was a Union recruitment officer strong-arming the new Americans into signing up.

I make all my policy decisions based on my vague memories of what might have happened in movies.

That's why I always shoot down escape pods, even if there are no life signs aboard.

/I could've saved the Empire!


You don't do the budget, Terry; I do!
 
2013-04-27 11:01:37 PM
hooray for the powerful wealth class, may their war factories run around the clock as they assure themselves a steady supply of do or die.
 
2013-04-27 11:01:47 PM
randomjsa: But according to some of the campaign ads in 2004 joining the military will... completely destroy your life so you had better make sure Bush isn't reelected or you're going to be drafted!

I joined the army 'cause my father and my brother were in the army. I thought I'd better join before I got drafted.

i7.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-27 11:02:58 PM

Karac: runwiz: The new mercenaries.  Create a desperate underclass so there will always be sufficient cannon fodder to feed the capitalist war machine.

That's nothing new.  Go to any rural high school in America.  You'll find that a large percentage of the best and brightest students enlist because it's the only guaranteed job they can get with decent pay and future prospects.


The only kind of government work the GOP will tolerate.
 
2013-04-27 11:04:41 PM

HairBolus: thisispete: So a slave army, then? Not only a loss of individual autonomy, but undercutting the wages and work opportunities for everyone else. That will end well.

How exactly is the military different than (non chattel) slavery? If you try to escape (go AWOL) they can hunt you down and imprison you.


Because you're not chattel. The military cannot sell you. The military does not gain ownership over the fruit of your loins. You are not a cow.
 
2013-04-27 11:06:06 PM
In the days of the Roman Empire, one of the recognized signs of the decline of that Empire was the adoption of mercenary troops, paid in gold and often with the lure of citizenship in the greatest empire of their time.

The overall disdain that the Romans had for these foreign mercenaries played heavily into their resentment and soon open rebellion against their Roman 'leaders'.
 
2013-04-27 11:07:49 PM

AntiNerd: Heinlein did this back in the 50s.


Rome did it back in the 100's
 
2013-04-27 11:07:57 PM

NeoCortex42: neongoats: Nothing but big ups for folks that join the military in the hopes of becoming citizens and maybe getting to bring their families with them. We should follow the French foreign legion model.

I know, I know, it would never get past a few back and forth emails if you described it that way though.

I'm very wary about the concept of "mandatory service" though. Maybe if the "service" encompassed many kind of public service, and not just military. Forcing every child in America into a giant slave army doesn't seem very much like Freedom.

I think there would also need to be a fair bit of flexibility as to when you have to serve. For instance, as someone who stayed in school through to a PhD, I'd rather not have taken a break for two years of service and push getting out of school that much farther away. But I would be alright if the service requirement could be fulfilled by getting a STEM PhD and going on to work in a government lab. It still contributes to the country, and helps transition graduates into the private sector.

/on the other hand, I would be thrilled if I could get a job in a government lab at all, service requirement or no.


The way I would set it would for it to be your last 2 years of schooling post high school, pre college. Putting college freshmen at approx age 20-21. Why? I would think people would have a firmer grasp on what they want to make of their lives after 2 years of service. Their public service may give them a taste of many different potential career tracks, both making use of their labor, and further assisting with better recognizing young peoples talents and skills and helping them develop them and transition to college or a career. I would say we would consider it normal for a kid to live with his parents during his public service, just like it's normal for a High School senior to today. Graduating from the public service marks your entrance into adulthood the way graduating from High School does now., and you go off to college, or do the normal(current) post high school whatever you want if college isn't your thing.

I would suggest that the Public Service have both military and non military, civilian services. Blue collar working man shiat like building and engineering things for the military/civil authorities, road engineering, building, paving. Bridge work. Even so far as auto mechanic at the local PD. Early medical training. Nursing, nursing aids, candystriping, etc.

But, I mean. All of that assumes a society interested in accomplishing something, with some kind of need or drive. We're just kind of rotting away with ennui and unwilling to both a)look at the world with a view longer than about 10 years and b)spend the capitol, both real and political to impose that much more structure to a system that is hardly funded enough to get kids to 12th grade and able to read, write and 'rithmatic.
 
2013-04-27 11:08:17 PM
Wasn't the knock on the military for a while the accusation that it took advantage of the poor and desperate to obtain recruits? Stats proved it was a crock, of course, but this sounds like it might be the real version.
 
2013-04-27 11:10:33 PM
You are willing to fight for the country, you damn well should be able to be a citizen. This is good.
 
2013-04-27 11:17:44 PM

Infernalist: In the days of the Roman Empire, one of the recognized signs of the decline of that Empire was the adoption of mercenary troops, paid in gold and often with the lure of citizenship in the greatest empire of their time.

The overall disdain that the Romans had for these foreign mercenaries played heavily into their resentment and soon open rebellion against their Roman 'leaders'.


Yeah. Imagine 30 years from now, a military heavily filled with foreign nationals hoping to end their service and get their citizenship. Will the GOP be anti-military when the military is entirely spanish speaking brown folks, chinky speaking yellow folks, and mubumbu speaking black folks?

The GOP will hate our foreign military, will resent every need to use it. Will have no care about using it recklessly, because fark those foreigners trying to come take good Roman Jo.. er American Jobs. The more that get killed in the war over bum fark east farkistan, the less will be trying to put half brown babies in their daughters bellies.

The Democrats will still not love the military that much, and the military itself will at that point probably be disillusioned about that whole "kill folks for America and get your green card" deal, and not feel much loyalty to America, the land that wanted to use them, but still resents having to let them in.
 
2013-04-27 11:20:08 PM

TV's Vinnie: Didn't I see this scene in "Gangs of New York", where immigrants arrived to see two tables side by side at the docks. One had applications to become US citizens, and the table beside it was a Union recruitment officer strong-arming the new Americans into signing up.


No.  What happened was Tammany Hall registered the Irish for citizenship so they could vote, but didn't tell them it also made them eligible for the draft, if we had one.  And to be fair, we'd never had a draft before the Civil War.
 
2013-04-27 11:21:31 PM
i was born in riverside so technically i don't think i'm american
 
2013-04-27 11:26:49 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: I have more respect for these foreigners who enlist in our military than I do for weasels like Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh, and Ted Nugent...

/ FTA: the comparison to the Roman Empire is a troubling one, however
// hope we can keep the armed forces culturally "American" centuries from now...instead of repeating the Roman mistake...


The Roman fail was getting stuck in its Imperial form of government.  Once the throne became "hereditary" with the option to murder the previous occupant it slid into the mess that eventually broke it.
 
2013-04-27 11:27:18 PM

neongoats: Nothing but big ups for folks that join the military in the hopes of becoming citizens and maybe getting to bring their families with them. We should follow the French foreign legion model.

I know, I know, it would never get past a few back and forth emails if you described it that way though.

I'm very wary about the concept of "mandatory service" though. Maybe if the "service" encompassed many kind of public service, and not just military. Forcing every child in America into a giant slave army doesn't seem very much like Freedom.


The real danger of mandatory military citizenship is the risk that voters would be less likely to vote in politicians who would engage in unnecessary military invasions of nations with flimsy justification with the actual goal of securing the economic interests of their wealthy friends. Such an outcome would eliminate the United State's position as World Police.
 
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