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(Some Angry Doctor)   Not news: CPS removes a baby from his parents. News: After the parents sought a second opinion from another hospital and the first hospital called the cops. SCARY: Subette is scheduled to have her baby at the same hospital   (thehealthyhomeeconomist.com) divider line 200
    More: Scary  
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15756 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Apr 2013 at 3:09 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-28 09:38:50 PM  

Maggie_Luna: Maggie_Luna: Mr. Holmes: badhatharry:Her name was Amber Marlowe and the provider was Wilkes-Barre General. You can thank me for doing your homework for you later, in the meantime, I'll just point out that there have also been numerous cases of idiots resisting the advice of doctors and killing their newborns. Midwives and junkies tend to be the biggest offenders on this front.

Should a doctor be able to forcibly compel a crackhead to undergo necessary surgery to save her babies when the crackhead refuses?

Here's what I don't get-- the crackhead from Salt Lake City mentioned in one of the Marlowe articles was tried for capital murder (she got off, sounds like). So if your baby dies on accident during delivery, you're a murderer. If it dies on purpose, you're okay, that's just an abortion.

I was wondering about that. Wouldn't that just be classified a miscarriage? I mean the fetus is not a legal living person. You might have named it, planned for it but there is no guarantee it won't stop gestating etc or, unfortunately, be still born. Yes there are developmental differences unvialbe vs. viable. If I'm poor and pregnant, go all the pregnancy without prenatal care and have a still birth would that be a case for 'murder'/'neglect'?

FTFM : editing, need to do it.


Yeah, you're right: a fetus is not a human being, so it's not entitled to the same rights and privileges as humans. Oddly enough though, punching a pregnant woman will get you charged with assault in some states, or some form of homicide/infanticide/feticide in other states. Apparently some men and many women have been arrested due to recent legislation:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feticide
 
2013-04-28 09:39:06 PM  
Could this explain part of the police issues? Sutter placed two calls when the parents walked out. The first was to police for kidnapping/welfare check. The officer assigned to that call visited Kaiser, was satisfied, and cleared his case. The second call went to CPS. CPS sees chiles removed AMA and calls in an emergency removal order. Those cops carried out their duty. No one ever bothered talking to each other.
 
2013-04-28 10:13:13 PM  
Should've shot the cops.

I'm not kidding.
 
2013-04-28 10:13:18 PM  
ITS NOT YER GOD-DAMNED HEALTHCARE ANYMORE

It belongs to the state and they will decide who has the right to do what.
 
2013-04-28 10:15:36 PM  

Gyrfalcon: ImpatientlyUnsympathetic: kiwimoogle84: I can see if possibly the kiddo was a bit unstable when they took him, but if that was the case, the cops at Kaiser wouldn't have said the kid was ok. I'm just scratching my head as to who thought that parents trying to CARE for their child warrants a CPS call. It's not like they were taking the kid to a faith healer.

That's what I'm thinking. Why would the Sutter doctors trump the Kaiser doctors with CPS? And I'd be more angry that they returned the child to the care of Sutter after I felt they were doing an inadequate job. At the very least, you'd think CPS would take the parents desires into consideration and taking the child back to Kaiser.

Its not like CPS is paying for the medical care for the child, so I would be mad that Sutter is racking up more medical bills for my child when I already declined their services.

I do wonder if there is a language barrier. One of my less awesome former coworkers treats people with accents or a limited English vocabulary as if they're stupid... I feel like its bigoted to treat someone with an accent or a smaller vocabulary as if they're not smart enough to make educated decisions. Meanwhile, this guy didn't speak even a little of a second language, so who, really, is the stupid person?

It may well be that a big part of the problem is right here. When you take a baby out of a hospital (or leave, or go someplace else), you take your precious money and generous insurance carrier with you. As long as babby is under Sutter's care, guess who is dunning the parent's insurance company for all his care while he is at CPS?

And it is very very easy for a HOSPITAL to claim that the child is in danger--whereas us peons who know if the kid downstairs is getting the crap beat out of him have to call sixteen times and provide photo proof in triplicate to get this kind of action. You'll notice the cops actually visited TWICE--which means they went back the first time and told the doctors, "No, every ...


I think you're pretty much spot on.
 
2013-04-28 10:25:57 PM  

Fissile: As for those of you dumping on CPS, you don't know what the doctors at the hospital told them.


Oddly enough, that could have been easily remedied if they'd listened to the SECOND OPINION that was freely f*cking available to them.
 
2013-04-28 10:42:00 PM  

oren0: The explanations for Alaska (huge geographically making infrastructure much more expensive relative to the population) and Louisiana/Mississippi (data from 2005 is used, the year of Katrina) are equally obvious. North Dakota is another interesting case, as I'd bet that much of that money was investments into the oil shale that's led to a huge economic boom there years later. I'd be fascinated to see more recent data and see how these numbers have changed. It wouldn't surprise me if CA and NV were both net negative now.


The chart's stats are obviously in flux from year to year, but it's pretty representative of the truth as a broad picture of who pays the feds and who receives from them. And, yes, it's not even up for  debate that red states take more than the blue states, and they give less.

As for your example about Alaska, do you realize that the vast majority of Alaska doesn't really "have" some of the things we see as modern perks in the lower 48? Many cities outside of the south barely have road access to other local communities, some use buckets to dump their feces into isolated waste ponds (no sewer system). Alaska is much larger in size, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Wyoming is "more developed" with respect to their infrastructure (outside of Fairbanks/Anchorage and that whole corridor). Of course, things cost more because of distance and mechanical failure/fatigue from temperatures, but if that should matter then we should look at things like corrosion caused from de-icers in certain states, and how that costs more money. These states didn't "ask" to exist where temps drop below 273 K.
 
2013-04-28 11:06:54 PM  
I'm amazed that farkers aren't calling this a "conspiracy theory." THIS is an example of the "tyranny" and communist Russia-esque treatment that is happening more and more in America. This is what a lot of "conspiracy theorists" are scared of. I do not have children yet, but stuff likes this makes me terrified to have one in this country.
 
2013-04-28 11:30:22 PM  

puffy999: Fissile: As for those of you dumping on CPS, you don't know what the doctors at the hospital told them.

Oddly enough, that could have been easily remedied if they'd listened to the SECOND OPINION that was freely f*cking available to them.

===================

Did this happen after the Boston bombing?  The people involved are Russians.  The media has been going on endlessly about how the Chechens who bombed Boston are "Russians".  Think your average fark-wit cop knows anything about Chechens?  Think your average fark-wit cop knows anything outside of his little cop monkeysphere?    All they needed to hear was "Russian" and it's all the excuse they needed.
 
2013-04-28 11:40:58 PM  
The problem here is Sutter Memorial.  Once it was THE place to give birth, but now it is very run-down.  In fact, it is scheduled to be torn down and replaced with housing.  It seems like the staff at Sutter Memorial are not as "quality" as they once were, and patient care has deteriorated, especially in pediatrics, as well as in the ER.  The hospital is scheduled to be torn down once Sutter finishes their addition to Sutter General Hospital, which is nearby.  Patients young and old should avoid Sutter Memorial.
 
2013-04-29 12:03:27 AM  
Although it sounds pretty damning against sutter, we really are only getting one side of the story.
 
2013-04-29 12:08:10 AM  

neongoats: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Summercat: For those hatin' on California:

[dakiniland.files.wordpress.com image 800x588]

I'm curious about that chart.  Because federal spending doesn't mean state assistance, it could be funding for military bases and other such things that benefit the country as a whole.

Well, a quick once over of the states should tell you that isn't significantly altering the chart. Many of the blue states listed there have huge military installations and/or bases, etc. They aren't just something that lives in republican-land. Good luck launching Naval carriers from Kansas.


A once over is a poor test for accuracy.  For example, a state might have an aircraft manufacturer, but they might outsource parts to different states not known for such projects.  That might constitute more spending than you realize depending on how numbers are tallied, and which numbers are being counted.  Honestly, it's a bullshiat chart that probably needs to die, because it really gives no information on the criteria being used.
 
2013-04-29 12:19:22 AM  

MadAzza: FrancoFile: I'm reading that whole thing with a 10 pound block of salt.  TFA is from a "Traditional Cultures nutrition" anti-doctor website.

Then you should click on thamike's link. Just scroll up. I had the same immediate reaction you did, not to the story itself but to the blog entry Subby posted.


In my own defense, I was given that article to read from a friend who just had HER baby at Sutter Memorial, and wanted me to see what was going on. I was pretty dumbfounded, and the thought didn't occur to me to look for a more "legitimate" news source to post. It should have, but I'm still allowed to blame baby brain, since I didn't even expect it'd get greenlit. I was too busy worrying about having my own kid there and what I can do to avoid a similar situation.
 
2013-04-29 12:45:45 AM  
LOL CPS got the wrong bad guys! It's like some guy who would rather eat grasshoppers for breakfast because he's too lazy to microwave some fried chicken!
 
2013-04-29 12:50:11 AM  

kiwimoogle84: I was too busy worrying about having my own kid there and what I can do to avoid a similar situation.


Honestly, as sucky as this situation is, as long as you trust your doc, and your better half is on top of paperwork / keeping nurses off your back, you should be ok.

Good luck, don't worry about this, and just concentrate on you and the little one.
 
2013-04-29 01:02:09 AM  

kiwimoogle84: MadAzza: FrancoFile: I'm reading that whole thing with a 10 pound block of salt.  TFA is from a "Traditional Cultures nutrition" anti-doctor website.

Then you should click on thamike's link. Just scroll up. I had the same immediate reaction you did, not to the story itself but to the blog entry Subby posted.

In my own defense, I was given that article to read from a friend who just had HER baby at Sutter Memorial, and wanted me to see what was going on. I was pretty dumbfounded, and the thought didn't occur to me to look for a more "legitimate" news source to post. It should have, but I'm still allowed to blame baby brain, since I didn't even expect it'd get greenlit. I was too busy worrying about having my own kid there and what I can do to avoid a similar situation.


A huge issue here seems to be that they didn't sign a discharge order from the NICU.  I know that many people have the mama bear instinct- "Why should I have to sign a paper to take MY baby home/to a different hospital?!" But if a baby is ADMITTED to a NICU, it's in everyone's best interest (the baby, the parents, the doctors, and the hospital) that the child not leave the NICU without documentation in the medical record.
Honestly, someone seriously dropped the ball in this case and when the 2nd hospital was contacted, that should have been the end of it.   However, the parents really shouldn't have left without signing d/c and ama slips first.  I've seen some people wait to be discharged a long time, but as soon as they threaten to leave ama and declare that they are out the door, those papers appear quick.

And if the story about that cop is true, he needs to severely reprimanded.

Best of luck on your birth.
 
2013-04-29 01:03:46 AM  

Fissile: I have to wonder how much life experience the anti-CPS people really have, or are they just plain ol' dense? I don't believe the state should micromanage families, but there are times when it's appropriate for the state to intervene.


The problem is they tend to be heavy-handed about it, assuming the reports are true rather than taking an ask questions first approach.

Your Average Witty Fark User: I hope they sue this hospital into bankruptcy. I also hope they sue the shiat out of the police department too.


No.  I see no reason the hospital should be sued.  Requesting a CPS followup on an AMA baby is quite reasonable.  The only wrongdoing here is how that followup was done.  (Unless the original hospital was somehow negligent in their care, something we can't decide from this article.)
 
2013-04-29 01:12:27 AM  
Uisce Beatha:
Since my primary is contracted with Sutter General as well, I see no reason to just transfer my care across the street. The part that bothers me is that Kaiser declared the child fit to go home, and the parents were safe caretakers. They have on record that the child was in no danger. CPS should have given the kid RIGHT BACK after reading those reports.

And yeah, I'd definitely sign AMA forms and whatnot, but it's possible that even if these people signed those forms, one doctor decided they were making a bad choice. So while I do trust my doctor, she's one of three in the practice who might deliver my kid (if for some reason my main one is delivering another baby already or whatever) and if something goes wrong and my little one has problems, I don't want some specialist or surgeon who hasn't used his tools in a while to decide surgery is the best option and try to tell me what's best. I'm far from being a doctor but I know enough medical terminology and diagnoses to know when something isn't right.

Unless I get the FULL story, and confirmation that none of the doctors I'll be working with there were involved, I'm more comfortable going to General instead. There shouldn't be a problem.
 
2013-04-29 01:21:41 AM  

o'really: Although it sounds pretty damning against sutter, we really are only getting one side of the story.


That's the way it always is.  Neither Sutter nor Kaiser can publicly make any statement at all due to privacy laws, so really the entire story is based on what the parents claim Sutter and Kaiser did.

Every story seems black and white when you only hear half of it (or in this case, one-third of it).
 
2013-04-29 01:28:25 AM  

kiwimoogle84: The part that bothers me is that Kaiser declared the child fit to go home, and the parents were safe caretakers. They have on record that the child was in no danger. CPS should have given the kid RIGHT BACK after reading those reports.


CPS plays by their own rules - rules which rarely take common sense into account.  My one brush with them was enough to figure that out.

kiwimoogle84: I'd definitely sign AMA forms and whatnot, but it's possible that even if these people signed those forms, one doctor decided they were making a bad choice.


The forms and general misunderstandings in this case seem to have been the aggravating factor - the parents being immigrants and not understanding just what the process was and what could go wrong didn't help.  Not victim blaming here, they are pretty faultless, but I imagine you and your SO will be able to be more proactive.  Actually, strike that, make it your SO - you have a big enough job ahead of you.

kiwimoogle84: Unless I get the FULL story, and confirmation that none of the doctors I'll be working with there were involved, I'm more comfortable going to General instead. There shouldn't be a problem.


Totally understandable - and you're right, as long as the docs you are familiar with are involved, you should be fine.
 
2013-04-29 01:34:59 AM  
kiwimoogle84:

Unless I get the FULL story, and confirmation that none of the doctors I'll be working with there were involved, I'm more comfortable going to General instead. There shouldn't be a problem.

Drs are not allowed to tell you if they treated a certain patient.  It's a violation of privacy.  They might say something general like they "aren't involved in that situation", but that would be bending the rules.  You may get a response of "I can't really talk about other patients in the hospital" and it wouldn't mean that your doctors were avoiding you or trying to hide something from you.
 
2013-04-29 01:43:12 AM  

cptcaveman: Could this explain part of the police issues? Sutter placed two calls when the parents walked out. The first was to police for kidnapping/welfare check. The officer assigned to that call visited Kaiser, was satisfied, and cleared his case. The second call went to CPS. CPS sees chiles removed AMA and calls in an emergency removal order. Those cops carried out their duty. No one ever bothered talking to each other.


That's nobody's duty anymore. Everyone's understaffed and overregulated, and showing initiative or concern is Not Doing Your Job.
 
2013-04-29 01:45:19 AM  

Mikeyworld: Fissile: "A hearing is scheduled for Monday, April 29, 2013 on the incident which was triggered when Anna Nikolayev and her husband Alex took baby Sammy out of Sutter Memorial Hospital and sought a second opinion at Kaiser Permanente, a rival hospital, "

================================

The best reason EVAH for free market competition in health care.

I kinda agree, but I feel that the cost of health care and prescription drugs are the best reason to add free competitition. It's all tied to the health insurance scam (has anyone ever figured out the whole billing that is used for insurance...it's truly bait-and-switch). My medical insurance costs $500/mo, with a $1500/mo contribution from my employer. On top of that, I pay $30/visit and $5 min for drugs. This system needs a slap upside the head. It cost me, personal-like $15K for a bowel obstruction, without surgery (it cleared as I was being prepped...almost broke the toilet). It's just wrong.

/Rant off


Did you have a hamster lodged up there?

Dr. Goldshnoz: Sue the 1st hospital, sue the 1st hospital's Doctor, sue CPS, sue the PD, sue the cops that stepped foot onto the private property. All into destitution bankruptcy without hopes of ever pursuing another job in their respective careers they attended college for. Did I miss anything?


Only to clarify, You make sure to sue not only the 'institutions' i.e. Hospital, PD and CPS but to throw a lawsuit at the "Top Dogs" of each institution and any 'employee' of theirs that caused the situation in the first place! When the people that work at these institutions realize that they are responsible for what the whole of the organization does perhaps they will use better investigating standards in future cases.

/rant off
 
2013-04-29 02:01:19 AM  

archeochick: kiwimoogle84:

Unless I get the FULL story, and confirmation that none of the doctors I'll be working with there were involved, I'm more comfortable going to General instead. There shouldn't be a problem.

Drs are not allowed to tell you if they treated a certain patient.  It's a violation of privacy.  They might say something general like they "aren't involved in that situation", but that would be bending the rules.  You may get a response of "I can't really talk about other patients in the hospital" and it wouldn't mean that your doctors were avoiding you or trying to hide something from you.


Well I know that- it's a HIPAA violation. I was just thinking if more info came to light as to disciplinary action. Besides, it's highly unlikely that an OB and a maternal-fetal specialist would have much to do with a five month old. It's just scary. I know of surgeons who just like cutting people open, and I'll have none of that.
 
2013-04-29 02:19:20 AM  

Uisce Beatha: kiwimoogle84: The part that bothers me is that Kaiser declared the child fit to go home, and the parents were safe caretakers. They have on record that the child was in no danger. CPS should have given the kid RIGHT BACK after reading those reports.

CPS plays by their own rules - rules which rarely take common sense into account.  My one brush with them was enough to figure that out.

kiwimoogle84: I'd definitely sign AMA forms and whatnot, but it's possible that even if these people signed those forms, one doctor decided they were making a bad choice.

The forms and general misunderstandings in this case seem to have been the aggravating factor - the parents being immigrants and not understanding just what the process was and what could go wrong didn't help.  Not victim blaming here, they are pretty faultless, but I imagine you and your SO will be able to be more proactive.  Actually, strike that, make it your SO - you have a big enough job ahead of you.

kiwimoogle84: Unless I get the FULL story, and confirmation that none of the doctors I'll be working with there were involved, I'm more comfortable going to General instead. There shouldn't be a problem.

Totally understandable - and you're right, as long as the docs you are familiar with are involved, you should be fine.


As said SO, I agree with her as far as changing hospitals but I don't honestly think it's worth making a big deal about. I don't think our little cupcake will have any contact with doctors that a sick older baby would. That being said, there's only a problem if our child was sick, and I'm well versed in hospital administration myself.

Plus the language barrier thing that was mentioned by someone earlier- it's possible these parents just didn't know what questions to ask, or interpreted answers incorrectly. There's no way to know.

That being said, it would be kind of funny to see them try to take my child from me, in a twisted kind of way. I'd need to see paperwork and warrants and have a chance to make phone calls at the very least. I'd end up in handcuffs for obstruction of their misguided "justice," so let's just hope it never comes to that.
 
2013-04-29 02:23:29 AM  

destrip: Parents / legal guardians don't "own" kids like property


They do, in exactly the same way slaves were owned, other than the right to profit from their sale (but children can still be transferred, either temporarily by simple agency, or permanently by disclaiming "parental rights"). Anything else a slave owner was allowed to do -- control where the person lives, force them to work, forbid them from working, control their education, control their food, control their housing, control their personal property, determine who and if they can marry, determine their religion, have them returned by law enforcement if they try to leave, etc. -- is just as true of children as it was of slaves.

You can argue there are better reasons for treating children this way, but a child's legal inequality is almost identical to that of a slave.

And as far as the pigs forcefully taking the guy's keys and storming the house: What happened to police warrants, or is a warrant not required in a CPS case?

They don't need a warrant if there's a court order to remove the children from the household. CPS files for such an order, which they have to convince a judge to issue, much like a warrant. Police also don't need a warrant if they believe there is an eminent threat to the children, just like they wouldn't need a warrant if they heard screaming.
 
2013-04-29 02:29:33 AM  

Sweeney Bodd: Uisce Beatha: kiwimoogle84: The part that bothers me is that Kaiser declared the child fit to go home, and the parents were safe caretakers. They have on record that the child was in no danger. CPS should have given the kid RIGHT BACK after reading those reports.

CPS plays by their own rules - rules which rarely take common sense into account.  My one brush with them was enough to figure that out.

kiwimoogle84: I'd definitely sign AMA forms and whatnot, but it's possible that even if these people signed those forms, one doctor decided they were making a bad choice.

The forms and general misunderstandings in this case seem to have been the aggravating factor - the parents being immigrants and not understanding just what the process was and what could go wrong didn't help.  Not victim blaming here, they are pretty faultless, but I imagine you and your SO will be able to be more proactive.  Actually, strike that, make it your SO - you have a big enough job ahead of you.

kiwimoogle84: Unless I get the FULL story, and confirmation that none of the doctors I'll be working with there were involved, I'm more comfortable going to General instead. There shouldn't be a problem.

Totally understandable - and you're right, as long as the docs you are familiar with are involved, you should be fine.

As said SO, I agree with her as far as changing hospitals but I don't honestly think it's worth making a big deal about. I don't think our little cupcake will have any contact with doctors that a sick older baby would. That being said, there's only a problem if our child was sick, and I'm well versed in hospital administration myself.

Plus the language barrier thing that was mentioned by someone earlier- it's possible these parents just didn't know what questions to ask, or interpreted answers incorrectly. There's no way to know.

That being said, it would be kind of funny to see them try to take my child from me, in a twisted kind of way. I'd need to see paperwork and warrants and have a chance to make phone calls at the very least. I'd end up in handcuffs for obstruction of their misguided "justice," so let's just hope it never comes to that.


Oh come on honey, you know we have a strict "no punching law enforcement" policy around here... :) besides, we don't have money for bail, so you'd best behave yourself.

Maybe I'll see if my doc is contracted with any of the Mercy hospitals around here and avoid Sutter altogether.
 
2013-04-29 02:35:27 AM  

Warlordtrooper: His keys to the home were forcibly removed from him and the police entered the house to take the baby.

Um They better hope they had a warrant to enter the house or else somebody is going to be sued.


CPS would have had an emergency warrant issued, that's basically how they work.
 
2013-04-29 03:05:46 AM  

puffy999: oren0: The explanations for Alaska (huge geographically making infrastructure much more expensive relative to the population) and Louisiana/Mississippi (data from 2005 is used, the year of Katrina) are equally obvious. North Dakota is another interesting case, as I'd bet that much of that money was investments into the oil shale that's led to a huge economic boom there years later. I'd be fascinated to see more recent data and see how these numbers have changed. It wouldn't surprise me if CA and NV were both net negative now.

The chart's stats are obviously in flux from year to year, but it's pretty representative of the truth as a broad picture of who pays the feds and who receives from them. And, yes, it's not even up for  debate that red states take more than the blue states, and they give less.

As for your example about Alaska, do you realize that the vast majority of Alaska doesn't really "have" some of the things we see as modern perks in the lower 48? Many cities outside of the south barely have road access to other local communities, some use buckets to dump their feces into isolated waste ponds (no sewer system). Alaska is much larger in size, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Wyoming is "more developed" with respect to their infrastructure (outside of Fairbanks/Anchorage and that whole corridor). Of course, things cost more because of distance and mechanical failure/fatigue from temperatures, but if that should matter then we should look at things like corrosion caused from de-icers in certain states, and how that costs more money. These states didn't "ask" to exist where temps drop below 273 K.


Alaska has about the same population as Vermont, so presumably their tax bills are similar as well. Which do you think spends more on infrastructure? It's fine if you say "Alaska is in the red to the government due to climate and size", but blaming it on Alaska's politics is a non-sequitur.
 
2013-04-29 03:16:38 AM  

kiwimoogle84: MadAzza: FrancoFile: I'm reading that whole thing with a 10 pound block of salt.  TFA is from a "Traditional Cultures nutrition" anti-doctor website.

Then you should click on thamike's link. Just scroll up. I had the same immediate reaction you did, not to the story itself but to the blog entry Subby posted.

In my own defense, I was given that article to read from a friend who just had HER baby at Sutter Memorial, and wanted me to see what was going on. I was pretty dumbfounded, and the thought didn't occur to me to look for a more "legitimate" news source to post. It should have, but I'm still allowed to blame baby brain, since I didn't even expect it'd get greenlit. I was too busy worrying about having my own kid there and what I can do to avoid a similar situation.


I didn't meant to criticize. :-)

Like thamike pointed out, the blog you linked to did include a link to a "legit" news story.
 
2013-04-29 04:34:22 AM  

Uisce Beatha: The forms and general misunderstandings in this case seem to have been the aggravating factor


What's an aggravating factor is in modern medicine the forms are all that is important.  The patient, their care, isn't important.  You come in to see a doctor, your squacking is a distraction to the task at hand, getting the insurance company to kick down some cash.  To do that they need documentation to give to insurance company. Nothing you say is actually important.
 
2013-04-29 05:14:33 AM  

cyberspacedout: thamike: cyberspacedout: thamike: I'm still wondering why, if they have Kaiser Permanente, they didn't go there in the first place.  Or why, if they don't have Kaiser Permanente, they were given a consultation there.

The kid had a heart condition, and was being given improper treatment elsewhere. I would think that this was enough of an emergency to warrant medical care regardless of the insurance policy. And I would hope there's some sort of law on the books regarding hospitals providing second opinions to patients in the face of potentially life threatening situations.

Not sure what you're getting at.

Oh, I meant if they had nowhere else to turn for a second opinion in an urgent care situation, I don't see why Kaiser wouldn't have seen them if they had a different insurance plan.


i have Kaiser and they need a Kaiser card and a photo ID before they let you into Urgent Care (hence "not emergency room")  It's closed to non-members.  Granted, I'm sure if a non-member crawled up to the front door with stab wounds, he'd get treated.  Second opinions, not so much.  And who would ask Urgent Care for a pediatric heart murmur opinion?

I think maybe one of them had gotten kaiser from work, but the other had their GP from Sutter, who insisted they see such and such OB/GYN at Sutter, and they had never bothered with Kaiser until they had a problem.
 
2013-04-29 06:24:25 AM  

oren0: buzzcut73: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Summercat: For those hatin' on California:

[dakiniland.files.wordpress.com image 800x588]

I'm curious about that chart.  Because federal spending doesn't mean state assistance, it could be funding for military bases and other such things that benefit the country as a whole.

That is certainly the case for New Mexico. We have Los Alamos, Sandia National Labs, three Air Force bases, White Sands Missile Range, and a lot of indian reservations. Oh, and what isn't any of the above things is usually federal land administered by the BLM.

So, yeah, billions of dollars spent in a state with a population of 2.1 million.

One more thing, NM is a blue state, not a red state as that chart indicates. One member of congress is a R. The other two are D, as are both senators. In presidential elections, NM has been blue since 1992 (with the exception of 2004). But, the makers of the chart would hate to have the #1 state ruin their point, so it is colored red.

Nobody but the truest Fark Liberals take that chart seriously. The explanations for Alaska (huge geographically making infrastructure much more expensive relative to the population) and Louisiana/Mississippi (data from 2005 is used, the year of Katrina) are equally obvious. North Dakota is another interesting case, as I'd bet that much of that money was investments into the oil shale that's led to a huge economic boom there years later. I'd be fascinated to see more recent data and see how these numbers have changed. It wouldn't surprise me if CA and NV were both net negative now.


More recent data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state
 
2013-04-29 08:51:32 AM  
It's entirely possible that the kid had dual coverage. HMO with Sutter Med Grp under Mom, Kaiser under dad. It happens.
 
2013-04-29 09:58:54 AM  

PunGent: oren0: buzzcut73: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Summercat: For those hatin' on California:

[dakiniland.files.wordpress.com image 800x588]

I'm curious about that chart.  Because federal spending doesn't mean state assistance, it could be funding for military bases and other such things that benefit the country as a whole.

That is certainly the case for New Mexico. We have Los Alamos, Sandia National Labs, three Air Force bases, White Sands Missile Range, and a lot of indian reservations. Oh, and what isn't any of the above things is usually federal land administered by the BLM.

So, yeah, billions of dollars spent in a state with a population of 2.1 million.

One more thing, NM is a blue state, not a red state as that chart indicates. One member of congress is a R. The other two are D, as are both senators. In presidential elections, NM has been blue since 1992 (with the exception of 2004). But, the makers of the chart would hate to have the #1 state ruin their point, so it is colored red.

Nobody but the truest Fark Liberals take that chart seriously. The explanations for Alaska (huge geographically making infrastructure much more expensive relative to the population) and Louisiana/Mississippi (data from 2005 is used, the year of Katrina) are equally obvious. North Dakota is another interesting case, as I'd bet that much of that money was investments into the oil shale that's led to a huge economic boom there years later. I'd be fascinated to see more recent data and see how these numbers have changed. It wouldn't surprise me if CA and NV were both net negative now.

More recent data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state


"Decrease in defense expenditure has been a large key to overall changes in expenditure, both in salaries for bases and for procurement of defense."

That means the chart is meaningless in terms of the desired effect.  Also consider this.  Many people pay taxes in one state while working, then retire in another state, that negative applied to the latter shouldn't count towards the total since the retirees are merely getting back out what they put in, at a different place and time.
 
2013-04-29 10:32:18 AM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: PunGent: oren0: buzzcut73: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Summercat: For those hatin' on California:

[dakiniland.files.wordpress.com image 800x588]

I'm curious about that chart.  Because federal spending doesn't mean state assistance, it could be funding for military bases and other such things that benefit the country as a whole.

That is certainly the case for New Mexico. We have Los Alamos, Sandia National Labs, three Air Force bases, White Sands Missile Range, and a lot of indian reservations. Oh, and what isn't any of the above things is usually federal land administered by the BLM.

So, yeah, billions of dollars spent in a state with a population of 2.1 million.

One more thing, NM is a blue state, not a red state as that chart indicates. One member of congress is a R. The other two are D, as are both senators. In presidential elections, NM has been blue since 1992 (with the exception of 2004). But, the makers of the chart would hate to have the #1 state ruin their point, so it is colored red.

Nobody but the truest Fark Liberals take that chart seriously. The explanations for Alaska (huge geographically making infrastructure much more expensive relative to the population) and Louisiana/Mississippi (data from 2005 is used, the year of Katrina) are equally obvious. North Dakota is another interesting case, as I'd bet that much of that money was investments into the oil shale that's led to a huge economic boom there years later. I'd be fascinated to see more recent data and see how these numbers have changed. It wouldn't surprise me if CA and NV were both net negative now.

More recent data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state

"Decrease in defense expenditure has been a large key to overall changes in expenditure, both in salaries for bases and for procurement of defense."

That means the chart is meaningless in terms of the desired effect.  Also consider this.  Many people pay taxes in one state while working, then retire in another st ...


You're not one of those people who think defense spending magically doesn't count against federal expenditures, are you?

It ain't like elves are keeping all those aircraft carriers afloat...
 
2013-04-29 10:33:34 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Just watched the video. They threw him down, took his keys and let themselves in?! Poor bastard probably thought he left that shiat behind in his native country. Sorry, friend. We have let you down.


Wonder if they had a warrant?  And even if so, there was no reason to use excessive force.

Seems like a lot of cops are just itching for an opportunity to use force when it is not necessary.
 
2013-04-29 10:34:21 AM  
I'm not known for hoping this,  but I'm hoping some lawyer is seeing mega-$$$$$$ here, and some of it can be scrounged off , ending up paying for this kid's future education.... all of it...
 
2013-04-29 10:57:44 AM  

Sweeney Bodd: Plus the language barrier thing that was mentioned by someone earlier- it's possible these parents just didn't know what questions to ask, or interpreted answers incorrectly. There's no way to know.


Yeah, that's definitely a possibility if they don't speak good English.

PunGent: You're not one of those people who think defense spending magically doesn't count against federal expenditures, are you?

It ain't like elves are keeping all those aircraft carriers afloat...


The point is that assigning it to a particular state doesn't mean much.
 
2013-04-29 12:13:20 PM  

PunGent: You're not one of those people who think defense spending magically doesn't count against federal expenditures, are you?


If you think the construction and operational cost of an aircraft carrier should contribute to any metric designed to ascertain the amount of "leeching" a state does, then you're amazingly stupid.  Things like that serve the interests of the U.S. as a whole.

Do you think Florida was leeching off the rest of us every time they launched a space shuttle?
 
2013-04-29 12:49:17 PM  

TheSwissNavy: Azlefty: Well, it IS Kalifornia. That baby belongs to the community. Your argument is invalid

Actually it is Sacramento County since they are in charge of CPS, the county is quite conservative like the rest of the Central Valley, to get the libby libs you have to go at least over to Solano County for that

You pathetic liar...
BARACK OBAMA (DEM) . . . . . . . 300,503 58.06 MITT ROMNEY (REP). . . . . . . . 202,514 39.13


Not wanting Romney as president != liberal.
 
2013-04-29 01:00:33 PM  
SUBBY:

Don't worry, this was NOT labor and delivery ward. I can personally attest to the unmitigated awesomeness of the labor & delivery ward at Sutter Memorial Hospital. I can't even begin to describe how fantastic it is.
 
2013-04-29 01:20:21 PM  

teeny: SUBBY:

Don't worry, this was NOT labor and delivery ward. I can personally attest to the unmitigated awesomeness of the labor & delivery ward at Sutter Memorial Hospital. I can't even begin to describe how fantastic it is.


Yeah, the mister keeps telling me I'm overreacting. I blame the hormones. But it's just scary. I know I can mouth off if I get scared and if my kid was sick and they weren't giving me answers, I'd have a similar reaction. Though I do have a very good lawyer's number close at hand- I would ask my legal rights before making such a drastic move as they did.
 
2013-04-29 01:52:35 PM  

kiwimoogle84: teeny: SUBBY:

Don't worry, this was NOT labor and delivery ward. I can personally attest to the unmitigated awesomeness of the labor & delivery ward at Sutter Memorial Hospital. I can't even begin to describe how fantastic it is.

Yeah, the mister keeps telling me I'm overreacting. I blame the hormones. But it's just scary. I know I can mouth off if I get scared and if my kid was sick and they weren't giving me answers, I'd have a similar reaction. Though I do have a very good lawyer's number close at hand- I would ask my legal rights before making such a drastic move as they did.


I sure as hell would like to know the name of the vindictive little nurse/administrator that made the first call. I wouldn't take my kids there for heart issues...and CPS are assholes no matter where you go. I had a run-in with them when a pediatrician decided that my son was malnourished and reported me, even though I'm the one that made the appointment to discuss my concern about his weight.

Again, you couldn't ask for better doctors in labor and delivery, though. OR nurses. (Keep an eye out for Kathleen or Jillian.)   I have a daughter named after Kathleen (Who is also my sister-in-law)  and if I hadn't had a bunch of boys I would have used the name Jillian for another girl.
 
2013-04-29 02:18:27 PM  

kiwimoogle84: jehovahs witness protection: Well, it IS Kalifornia. That baby belongs to the community. Your argument is invalid.

Yeah, um, there's nothing wrong with California. Lived here my whole life and I love it. It has its problems but a few stupid comments in no way represent the views of the whole state. This is not what happened here, if you'd RTFA.


I was born and raised in California. I didn't realize how awful that state is until I moved away. Living somewhere else really opened my eyes.
 
2013-04-29 02:25:28 PM  

Summercat: For those hatin' on California:

[dakiniland.files.wordpress.com image 800x588]

Sure! Let us leave, then! We'll take Oregon and Washington State along with us, form Pacifica. Or Columbia. Probably put the Capitol up in Washington State, to counterbalance the  fact California is the more populous.

We can afford being on our own. fark you.


No you won't. We don't want you either.
 
2013-04-29 02:40:59 PM  
So a farkup medical team doesn't want to be outed as a farkup medical team, so they call CPS because somebody left AMA...to another hospital. That is completely unethical, among other things. And of course, as usual, the police can be counted on to be armed thugs that act outside their authority. What a ridiculous situation.
 
2013-04-29 02:55:35 PM  

Falin: I was born and raised in California. I didn't realize how awful that state is until I moved away. Living somewhere else really opened my eyes.


Elaborate please. Is this because of political differences? Did you not like the cost of living? Was it not beautiful? Too much bureacracy? Where in California were you living? Your blanket statement doesn't inform anyone of anything.
 
2013-04-29 03:35:01 PM  
Best toe the line citizen
 
2013-04-29 03:46:12 PM  

Falin: kiwimoogle84: jehovahs witness protection: Well, it IS Kalifornia. That baby belongs to the community. Your argument is invalid.

Yeah, um, there's nothing wrong with California. Lived here my whole life and I love it. It has its problems but a few stupid comments in no way represent the views of the whole state. This is not what happened here, if you'd RTFA.

I was born and raised in California. I didn't realize how awful that state is until I moved away. Living somewhere else really opened my eyes.


I have lived in other places briefly. I always come back to California. Besides, there's a huge difference between the politics of Sacramento and El Dorado counties and the politics most everywhere else. Berkeley and southern CA are WAY different politically
 
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