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(Washington Post)   Study from NS Sherlock Institute finds there may not be a shortage of STEM graduates after all   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 51
    More: Obvious, labor shortage, crack stem, graduates, shortages, foreign worker, Economic Policy Institute  
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2573 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Apr 2013 at 2:19 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-26 02:35:17 PM
Now how are we going to justify all of those h1b visas? How are we going to fill those jobs with lower paid workers, executives need their 7 figure bonuses dammit!
 
2013-04-26 02:40:30 PM
Companies complain because they have a long list of specific qualifications and then they can only find a few people (screened out about a application reading algorithm) who exactly qualified.
 
2013-04-26 02:50:53 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Companies complain because they have a long list of specific qualifications and then they can only find a few people (screened out about a application reading algorithm) who exactly qualified.


That's because they find the person they want first (in India), and tailor the job qualifications specifically to that person's background.
 
2013-04-26 02:52:34 PM

EbolaNYC: Now how are we going to justify all of those h1b visas? How are we going to fill those jobs with lower paid workers, executives need their 7 figure bonuses dammit!


Well, good, sound immigration policy requires that we spend billions to keep Jose from coming here to pick lettuce or scrub toilets, while, at the same time we allow Megaglop, Inc. to bring in Achmed and Ranjesh to take jobs we actually want. It's the Free Market (tm) at work, boys 'n girls!
 
2013-04-26 03:02:32 PM

ShawnDoc: DrewCurtisJr: Companies complain because they have a long list of specific qualifications and then they can only find a few people (screened out about a application reading algorithm) who exactly qualified.

That's because they find the person they want first (in India), and tailor the job qualifications specifically to that person's background.


Hanlon's law.  You are severely overestimating the level of competence that corporate HR has.  My boss had to have my resume changed to get my own job through HR's inflexible filters(I was transitioning from contractor to full time, and had to "apply" for this position, and my resume didn't include the right keyword for one inane technology my work does't even really deal with).
 
2013-04-26 03:27:51 PM

ikanreed: ShawnDoc: DrewCurtisJr: Companies complain because they have a long list of specific qualifications and then they can only find a few people (screened out about a application reading algorithm) who exactly qualified.

That's because they find the person they want first (in India), and tailor the job qualifications specifically to that person's background.

Hanlon's law.  You are severely overestimating the level of competence that corporate HR has.  My boss had to have my resume changed to get my own job through HR's inflexible filters(I was transitioning from contractor to full time, and had to "apply" for this position, and my resume didn't include the right keyword for one inane technology my work does't even really deal with).


Hanlon's Law meets the Singularity. The computers have taken over, and humans are not to be trusted with important decisions.
 
2013-04-26 03:42:52 PM
No, HR hasn't changed much in 30 years. When I was in my first job out of grad school, at Hughes Aircraft, a position opened for a PC manager. Mind you, it was 1983 and very few people knew that they even existed. I only knew about the job because I met the VP in a company cafeteria. At that point, I had been working with micro-computers for over a decade, even soldered one together. HR refused to let me apply for the job, because I didn't have a degree in computer science, just Applied Physics and a MBA. The manager had not put that in the request, HR had. They would not let him change the job requirements, either.

Had lots of exposure to the IT business' hypocrisy about H1Bs, nothing but saving a few bucks and losing the experience when the person had to go home.
 
2013-04-26 03:57:53 PM
Because IT is a cost center and are basically computer mechanics and you can hire Americans to tighten nuts and bolts for $30/hr or you can hire Indians to do it for $5/hr and at the end of the day all they're doing is computer mechanics so what's the difference if the guy with the wrench is brown?

Sadly, this is true to a certain extent, but not nearly as true as hiring managers and executives wish it was.
 
2013-04-26 04:08:36 PM
It's a pretty bleak picture for the biotech field.  Wages have been driven down pretty far. I started my current job right out of grad school; I was making the same salary as a friend who worked across town as a secretary.
 
2013-04-26 04:16:35 PM
...you mean I don't  actually need 800 hours' experience with Microsoft Office Deluxe Executive 2014 B+ Edition and a TX+ certification to work tier 1 support?
 
2013-04-26 04:23:32 PM
A new study shows that the country's STEM worker shortage is a myth deliberate deception created in order to import more cheap foreign tech workers and drive down wages.

FTFY
 
2013-04-26 04:27:33 PM

hstein3: It's a pretty bleak picture for the biotech field.  Wages have been driven down pretty far. I started my current job right out of grad school; I was making the same salary as a friend who worked across town as a secretary.


One thing I keep hearing complaints about is that the U.S. doesn't produce enough PhD's, but when you do the math in many fields it doesn't pay.
 
2013-04-26 04:30:51 PM
Here's my opinion on this:

Change the immigration law to make people who can demostrate exceptional skills in things like IT to be able to freely immigrate, with a fast track to US citizenship, and then ban H1B visas completely.  This way, a company like Google really can hire an exceptional Indian or Chinese programmer if they are willing to pay their full salary, but H1Bs can't be abused to simply import people en masse to drive wages down.  Win for the company actually trying to hire an exceptionally talented worker, win for the worker, win for the United States of America.  Lose for companies just trying to hire people cheaply, lose for the country that the immigrant left.
 
2013-04-26 05:01:41 PM

EbolaNYC: Now how are we going to justify all of those h1b visas? How are we going to fill those jobs with lower paid workers, executives need their 7 figure bonuses dammit!


Done in one.
 
2013-04-26 05:02:53 PM

DrewCurtisJr: hstein3: It's a pretty bleak picture for the biotech field.  Wages have been driven down pretty far. I started my current job right out of grad school; I was making the same salary as a friend who worked across town as a secretary.

One thing I keep hearing complaints about is that the U.S. doesn't produce enough PhD's, but when you do the math in many fields it doesn't pay.


The problem is that many politicians and university leaders hear statistics like, "American students ranked 42nd in science testing scores compared to other nations," and think that means we need more STEM degree holders and more science teachers.  It's a proxy for having a scientifically literate public.  Not a bad goal, mind you, but pumping out a bunch of scientists who can't find jobs is not going to make the public any smarter.

/Statistics may have been made to prove my point
//Forty percent of people would recognize it, Kent
 
2013-04-26 05:23:10 PM
Hopefully this means that STEM majors and Liberal Arts majors will stop bickering with one another and band together to form mutually beneficial firms and companies and tell the Business and Econ majors to Fark off.
 
2013-04-26 05:23:28 PM
I gotta imagine the H1B process also hurts legitimate tech companies who want a specialist but have to treat him like a Downstairs East Computer College of Bombay reject who comes here to do lousy code for 12.50.
 
2013-04-26 05:41:43 PM
Looking for a full time employee with 5-7 years in doing technical things, creating synergies, pursuing initiatives, and harmonizing systems. Why can't I find any qualified people for this job?!
 
2013-04-26 05:53:05 PM

natazha: No, HR hasn't changed much in 30 years.


It changed when it went from being called Personnel (you know, dealing with people) to Human Reasourses (as in, bags of meat to be used up like coal or wood).

Their attitude changed, they grabbed more power in the corporate environment, and we are all the worse off for it.
 
2013-04-26 05:53:46 PM

tortilla burger: Looking for a full time employee with 5-7 years...


Maybe that's why?   Idk, but in my case, I can't get my foot in any door without the necessary *3-5 years* experience.  I've been in school for the past decade, how am I gonna get that?!

/My problem anyway.
//bitter
 
2013-04-26 06:13:04 PM

Mawson of the Antarctic: Hopefully this means that STEM majors and Liberal Arts majors will stop bickering with one another and band together to form mutually beneficial firms and companies and tell the Business and Econ majors to Fark off.


Why would STEM need help from their fry cook and coffee pourer.
 
2013-04-26 06:27:24 PM
Ok, when did the acronym STEM become popular? Because I certainly never heard it when I was in college, and actually don't recall seeing it at all until last week.
 
2013-04-26 06:34:19 PM
Get a job that needs a security clearance....can't import people for those
 
2013-04-26 06:40:03 PM

tortilla burger: Looking for a full time employee with 5-7 years in doing technical things, creating synergies, pursuing initiatives, and harmonizing systems. Why can't I find any qualified people for this job?!


Dang, I have more experience leveraging and shifting paradigms.  Keep me in mind!
 
2013-04-26 06:51:06 PM
What a bunch of crybabies! I've been trying for five years to find someone with twenty years of HTML5 experience and can't find anyone in the US who is qualified. But I have a stack of resumes from guys in India who not only have the required experience but already have several HTML6 projects under their belts. If I'm not allowed to bring these guys in, they'll be the next Google and put America out of business. If you don't let my business plan to dictate immigration and labor policy, everyone will be out of a job and the terrorists will win. Wise up America, give these jobs to the only qualified people on the planet or you're a horrible racist who is selfish and is jealous of those better than you.

/or something...
 
2013-04-26 06:51:46 PM
The problem isn't the number of STEM grads, it's the quality of STEM grads.

40% are dangerously incompetent.
40% are out to "prove" how clever they are, and turn the simplest problem into a god-awful, over-engineered, mess.
20% are actually decent.
 
2013-04-26 07:05:38 PM

Bisu: Ok, when did the acronym STEM become popular? Because I certainly never heard it when I was in college, and actually don't recall seeing it at all until last week.


It is a recent terminology developed in the debate over increasing H-1B Visas. It has been around for several years though.
 
2013-04-26 07:31:33 PM

Fubini: Because IT is a cost center and are basically computer mechanics and you can hire Americans to tighten nuts and bolts for $30/hr or you can hire Indians to do it for $5/hr ...


This very attitude is why so much commercial software today is crap.

We are not 'nut tighteners' asshole. Its takes education, creativity, and experience to write solid code.
 
2013-04-26 07:49:20 PM

WhippingBoy: The problem isn't the number of STEM grads, it's the quality of STEM grads.

40% are dangerously incompetent.
40% are out to "prove" how clever they are, and turn the simplest problem into a god-awful, over-engineered, mess.
20% are actually decent.


Got some citations to back up your statement?
 
2013-04-26 07:59:30 PM

FizixJunkee: WhippingBoy: The problem isn't the number of STEM grads, it's the quality of STEM grads.

40% are dangerously incompetent.
40% are out to "prove" how clever they are, and turn the simplest problem into a god-awful, over-engineered, mess.
20% are actually decent.

Got some citations to back up your statement?


Probably not, seeing as how he's in the 40%.
 
2013-04-26 08:22:25 PM

nmemkha: are not 'nut tighteners' asshole. Its takes education, creativity, and experience to write solid code.


We upper management types are the only people with real talent, and therefore deserve to be compensated accordingly. Everyone else is just a interchangeable commodity to be bought for the lowest price. Your labor is like soybeans.
 
2013-04-26 08:57:28 PM

Geotpf: Here's my opinion on this:

Change the immigration law to make people who can demostrate exceptional skills in things like IT to be able to freely immigrate, with a fast track to US citizenship, and then ban H1B visas completely.  This way, a company like Google really can hire an exceptional Indian or Chinese programmer if they are willing to pay their full salary, but H1Bs can't be abused to simply import people en masse to drive wages down.  Win for the company actually trying to hire an exceptionally talented worker, win for the worker, win for the United States of America.  Lose for companies just trying to hire people cheaply, lose for the country that the immigrant left.




Those visas are called EB2.


There are three types of EB-2 Visas.


EB-2(A): This category is for foreign nationals professionals with an 'advanced degrees' (masters degree or higher) and with a job offer from a U.S. company


EB-2(B): This category is for foreign nationals with 'exceptional ability' in the sciences, business or arts and with a job offer from a U.S. company


EB-2(C): This category is for foreign nationals with exceptional ability, or an advanced degree, who can show that their activities will substantially benefit the U.S. national interest
 
2013-04-26 10:42:06 PM

FizixJunkee: WhippingBoy: The problem isn't the number of STEM grads, it's the quality of STEM grads.

40% are dangerously incompetent.
40% are out to "prove" how clever they are, and turn the simplest problem into a god-awful, over-engineered, mess.
20% are actually decent.

Got some citations to back up your statement?


Nah. Just 20 years experience fixing other people's crap.
 
2013-04-26 11:00:13 PM

Mawson of the Antarctic: Hopefully this means that STEM majors and Liberal Arts majors will stop bickering with one another and band together to form mutually beneficial firms and companies and tell the Business and Econ majors to Fark off.


I read somewhere, can't remember where offhand, that businesses are actually looking for Liberal Arts majors over Business majors more and more. Something to do with even an art history major having a greater ability to think than someone with a business degree.
 
2013-04-26 11:15:58 PM
In programming in particular, just having a degree doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Most places have programming tests because colleges just aren't doing their job in making sure people who pass actually know anything.  Also, this tends to mean that proving yourself some other way besides college can still be enough to get a good programming job.
 
2013-04-26 11:32:08 PM

Myria: In programming in particular, just having a degree doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Most places have programming tests because colleges just aren't doing their job in making sure people who pass actually know anything.  Also, this tends to mean that proving yourself some other way besides college can still be enough to get a good programming job.


I like the idea of testing.  Very meritocratic.   When I was looking for accounting jobs (even though I don't have a degree in accounting), the temp agency I used tested applicants on their knowledge of accounting, bookkeeping, data entry, payroll, etc.  I aced the exams and got great job offers.  However, if I had submitted my resume directly to any of those companies, I wouldn't have gotten a single interview.
 
2013-04-26 11:45:59 PM
Same with the manufactured pharmacist shortage 15 or so years ago. The chains were just building too many stores in order to cover a given geographic area, or foil a competitor by building on the opposite corner. Now there's a severe glut because many states doubled the number of pharmacy schools. Now the chains have pharmacy staff chasing ridiculous, ephemeral business metrics instead of doing what they are legally required and professionally trained to do. Thanks, toothless state boards for handing the profession's reins over to the corporations.
 
2013-04-27 12:45:20 AM

ShawnDoc: That's because they find the person they want first (in India), and tailor the job qualifications specifically to that person's background.


Yeah, I know someone that worked in chemical engineering who said that the company would find the person they wanted (Indian) and then list every language that person spoke in the qualifications. "Oh, Uncle Sam, we need an H1B. We can't find any American Engineers that speak English, Hindi, and Tamil."
 
2013-04-27 01:39:44 AM
Looks like Farkers are slacking.  WP on FTA had over 1000 comments.
 
2013-04-27 02:40:35 AM
FTA: "But some worry that the more H-1Bs allowed into the system, the more domestic workers get crowded out, resulting in what no one appears to want: fewer American students seeing much promise in entering STEM fields."

"Why should bust my ass to take the hard courses, even though I can excel in them, if my chances of working in my field are nearly as poor as the English lit major who doesn't?"

That's the plan... break the system, then complain that the system doesn't work because it's broken.
Meanwhile the corporations make assloads of money with this program while STEM graduates work at Starbucks.
 
2013-04-27 06:09:53 AM
Of course we don't. All of our STEM graduates are going overseas because they're rightly offended at having to compete for jobs that pay $10/hour, when they could've been flipping burgers for 6 years and getting more.

/One of my classmates and family friends bolted for Germany when he got his degree. And this was years before the Great Suppression really took off.
 
2013-04-27 08:50:27 AM

Mawson of the Antarctic: Hopefully this means that STEM majors and Liberal Arts majors will stop bickering with one another and band together to form mutually beneficial firms and companies and tell the Business and Econ majors to Fark off.



Accept it. STEM majors will FOREVER work for business and liberal arts majors.
 
2013-04-27 11:03:09 AM

EbolaNYC: Now how are we going to justify all of those h1b visas? How are we going to fill those jobs with lower paid workers, executives need their 7 figure bonuses dammit!


THIS.
 
2013-04-27 11:04:59 AM

bronyaur1: Mawson of the Antarctic: Hopefully this means that STEM majors and Liberal Arts majors will stop bickering with one another and band together to form mutually beneficial firms and companies and tell the Business and Econ majors to Fark off.


Accept it. STEM majors will FOREVER work for business and liberal arts majors.


Yep.  Ken and Barbie in the front office, Harold and Kumar in the back office.  H & K can form their own co., but then get muscled aside or bought out by the big boys.
 
2013-04-27 11:09:35 AM

ghall3: Get a job that needs a security clearance....can't import people for those


Student debt will keep you from getting one.
 
2013-04-27 11:22:38 AM

BolshyGreatYarblocks: ghall3: Get a job that needs a security clearance....can't import people for those

Student debt will keep you from getting one.


Really?  I didn't know that.
 
2013-04-27 02:19:34 PM

Mawson of the Antarctic: Hopefully this means that STEM majors and Liberal Arts majors will stop bickering with one another and band together to form mutually beneficial firms and companies and tell the Business and Econ majors to Fark off.


Can we add communications majors (or whoever the hell goes into HR) to that list?

/Seriously, fark those morons
 
2013-04-27 08:22:20 PM
Am I the only one that see's a value in having the best minds around the world fighting for a chance to live, work and be taxed in the US?

Would the US be better off if the Google had been started in another country because one of the co-founder's parents weren't able to immigrate?  We're not talking about unskilled, undocumented workers....
 
2013-04-27 10:46:29 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: Am I the only one that see's a value in having the best minds around the world fighting for a chance to live, work and be taxed in the US?


There is value in having the best minds... but many of those minds are already here, and employers won't hire them because they are cheap.  Employers also lie about not being able to find these minds so that they can save money.

There is where the contention is. They are cheap, lying bastards, and no one likes a cheap lying bastard. Except MBAs.
 
2013-04-28 12:29:39 AM

rewind2846: Fark_Guy_Rob: Am I the only one that see's a value in having the best minds around the world fighting for a chance to live, work and be taxed in the US?

There is value in having the best minds... but many of those minds are already here, and employers won't hire them because they are cheap.  Employers also lie about not being able to find these minds so that they can save money.

There is where the contention is. They are cheap, lying bastards, and no one likes a cheap lying bastard. Except MBAs.


I couldn't agree with you more, rewind.
 
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