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(PBS)   The US knows that Syria has used chemical weapons on its people, now it's just waiting for the strongly worded letter from the UN   (pbs.org) divider line 197
    More: Sad, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, Secretary of State John Kerry, Syrians, United States, Judy Woodruff, White House released, safe area, John McCain  
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2960 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Apr 2013 at 8:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-26 08:28:19 AM  
How about the POTUS asks Congress for a formal declaration of war? They can then debate in the chamber instead of over the airwaves.
 
2013-04-26 08:29:04 AM  
Here's a tip, Obama:

Don't be all bluster and finger-waving, talking about red lines, if you're not going to back up what you said with actual actions. That makes your administration look like weaklings and hurts American credibility in the region, effectively fostering the impression that America is a paper tiger and is afraid that it would get its ass kicked by Assad.

So either shut up or be ready to put up, next time.

Cheers.
 
2013-04-26 08:40:45 AM  
I've yet to hear a real reason why it's our responsibility to do anything about it.

If we're going to intervene with Syria for humanitarian reasons or because their government is actively oppressing and killing thousands, then there are a lot of other places in the world we'll have to do something about.
 
2013-04-26 08:41:08 AM  

Tatsuma: So either shut up or be ready to put up, next time.


We really don't need another Kosovo on our hands though, or for that matter Somalia

We got the message from the rest of the world that they are tired of us being the world police, so we're going through proper channels now. Think of it like Volgons, until we get subsection form 67-a signed by Department T with Form subsection 87-y sent from the Office of Review Review, THEN we'll put on a lightworks display.
 
2013-04-26 08:42:20 AM  

Tatsuma: Here's a tip, Obama:

Don't be all bluster and finger-waving, talking about red lines, if you're not going to back up what you said with actual actions. That makes your administration look like weaklings and hurts American credibility in the region, effectively fostering the impression that America is a paper tiger and is afraid that it would get its ass kicked by Assad.

So either shut up or be ready to put up, next time.

Cheers.


We won't do anything. Why? Two reasons: 1) unsure of the sides in this 2) this is the key: Russia and China oppose any military intervention. That's a game killer right there. We won't start WW3 over freaking Syria. I wish we would be bolder in opposing Assad, but that hasn't been anyone's style since Reagan. While I would love Assad to be removed from power and to see a free Syria, I am not sure what generations of brainwashing against the US (and Israel) will bring for a replacement. Still, I am all for democracy, so off with Assad's head, regardless of who replaces him.
 
2013-04-26 08:42:52 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: We really don't need another Kosovo on our hands though, or for that matter Somalia

We got the message from the rest of the world that they are tired of us being the world police, so we're going through proper channels now. Think of it like Volgons, until we get subsection form 67-a signed by Department T with Form subsection 87-y sent from the Office of Review Review, THEN we'll put on a lightworks display.


I'm not saying that you're wrong, or the US should invade Syria. What I'm saying is that unless Obama is ready to invade or bomb a country, he shouldn't be blustering and threatening with red lines and such. Just condemn and stay uninvolved, don't act like you're the world's police and then let the robbers run loose.
 
2013-04-26 08:42:56 AM  
I can't imagine why a President might be reluctant to commit US forces to the Middle East and wants to exercise caution.  It's almost as if we've had bad experiences with that kind of thing before and it's turned out badly.
 
2013-04-26 08:47:58 AM  
I would certainly oppose US intervention in Syria, but Tatsuma is right that there shouldn't have been a "red line" drawn if it wasn't real.

We'd like North Korea to believe us when we say "this is a red line".
 
2013-04-26 08:49:12 AM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: I can't imagine why a President might be reluctant to commit US forces to the Middle East and wants to exercise caution.  It's almost as if we've had bad experiences with that kind of thing before and it's turned out badly.


Especially since it seems that both sides in the conflict are assholes to varying degrees.

/Sucks for the civilians caught in the middle, though.
 
2013-04-26 08:49:49 AM  

Tatsuma: I'm not saying that you're wrong, or the US should invade Syria. What I'm saying is that unless Obama is ready to invade or bomb a country, he shouldn't be blustering and threatening with red lines and such. Just condemn and stay uninvolved, don't act like you're the world's police and then let the robbers run loose.


It's coming, no fly drones, and cruise missiles a plenty along with secret forces operating in border to control chemical weapons IF they are there. The head general more or less admitted that even if we wanted too at this point, we dont have enough information to do so. So any operation would be folly at this point.

And we saw where that took us.

Besides, we'd like to get the entire world in on this, including Russia.
 
2013-04-26 08:49:57 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: We really don't need another Kosovo on our hands though


Why do people keep saying this? I don't think we should intervene in Syria but Kosovo was a freaking success and a half. Of course we let Rwanda go to sh*t instead
 
2013-04-26 08:51:09 AM  

Tatsuma: IdBeCrazyIf: We really don't need another Kosovo on our hands though, or for that matter Somalia

We got the message from the rest of the world that they are tired of us being the world police, so we're going through proper channels now. Think of it like Volgons, until we get subsection form 67-a signed by Department T with Form subsection 87-y sent from the Office of Review Review, THEN we'll put on a lightworks display.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, or the US should invade Syria. What I'm saying is that unless Obama is ready to invade or bomb a country, he shouldn't be blustering and threatening with red lines and such. Just condemn and stay uninvolved, don't act like you're the world's police and then let the robbers run loose.


Or you, know, they are doing exactly what they say they are: waiting for more credible evidence. It wouldn't be the first time the US was "certain" that chemical weapons had been used somewhere and it turned out they were completely and utterly wrong.

Case in point:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_rain
 
2013-04-26 08:51:39 AM  
Fark headline: knows

Actual headline: Believes


So what's Colin Powell's Fark handle?
 
2013-04-26 08:52:18 AM  
Bluff called.
 
2013-04-26 08:54:19 AM  

Aarontology: I've yet to hear a real reason why it's our responsibility to do anything about it.

If we're going to intervene with Syria for humanitarian reasons or because their government is actively oppressing and killing thousands, then there are a lot of other places in the world we'll have to do something about.


It's not our responsibility to aid the rebels. It is the UN's responsibility to keep WMDs from being used.

Basically, it boils down to the UN actually having to do their job and the US being the nation that can most effectively carry out the operation. It would look less like Libya, and more like international forces taking over control of WMD storage sites.
 
2013-04-26 08:54:43 AM  
NOT OUR PROBLEM.

Really. It sucks. It's horrible.
But we have enough debt and shiat to deal with here.
 
2013-04-26 08:55:12 AM  
All we "know" is that there are "samples" that have tested for signs of sarin.  Does that mean that the Syrian government used sarin bombs in battle? Or was there a battle that happened near a chemical weapons storage facility and people got contaminated? Maybe some less scrupulous rebels that used sarin by themselves?

I think it's time that we established a no-fly zone over Syria so we can do more reconnaissance, but a more direct intervention may not be justifiable yet.

And frankly, other than the legal issues involved, I don't see why a few people killed by sarin is more of an affront to the international community than the thousands of people killed by bullets and bombs.
 
2013-04-26 08:55:57 AM  

Tatsuma: Here's a tip, Obama:

Don't be all bluster and finger-waving, talking about red lines, if you're not going to back up what you said with actual actions. That makes your administration look like weaklings and hurts American credibility in the region, effectively fostering the impression that America is a paper tiger and is afraid that it would get its ass kicked by Assad.

So either shut up or be ready to put up, next time.

Cheers.


So don't be exactly like Bibi is with Iran?
 
2013-04-26 08:56:37 AM  
To our dear friends in Syria:

Shame on you! Don't do it again or we will write you another letter. Or e-mail. Or just make a finger-wagging gesture at your representative in the cafeteria at lunch.

Signed
You friends at the U.N.

/Tennis on Thursday?
 
2013-04-26 08:56:53 AM  

Tatsuma: Here's a tip, Obama:

Don't be all bluster and finger-waving, talking about red lines, if you're not going to back up what you said with actual actions. That makes your administration look like weaklings and hurts American credibility in the region, effectively fostering the impression that America is a paper tiger and is afraid that it would get its ass kicked by Assad.

So either shut up or be ready to put up, next time.

Cheers.


You didn't really expect Obama to do anything?

Really?
 
2013-04-26 08:57:24 AM  
thecontrariancorner.com
 
2013-04-26 08:57:40 AM  
Wait.  Back the fark up.  Syria used chemical weapons and somehow they are not out of Syrians?  We were all led to believe that chemical weapons were huge WMD death dealing superweapons that wiped out entire population centers in minutes.  WTF?   Wheres the millions dead?  Wheres the footage of entire towns wiped out? What the hell?

Did.....did the media lie?  TO US, about the danger of these weapons?  How is that even possible?

Next thing you know we we find out a nuke doesn't instantly destroy the entire world.
 
2013-04-26 08:57:55 AM  
I think it is pretty sh*t that Obama said "The red line is the use and mobilization of chemical weapons."   So Syria uses Sarin gas, everyone goes "AHH!  THEY USED IT!" and Obama says "We have do double-quadruple check this to make sure."

If they used it, they farking used it.   Park a battleship off the coast and lob Tomahawks or Hellfires (We have plenty of those, I DELIVER the goddamn things) at Syria until Assad is gone.   Don't make the same mistake you made in Iraq, leave the Syrian army in place so we DONT HAVE TO RETRAIN AN ENTIRE NEW GODDAMN ARMY.
 
2013-04-26 08:57:58 AM  
So for all you 'red line' people: What did you expect Obama to do, start the bombing right away? Maybe Obama is actually going to stop and think for a while what his reaction will be.

We don't have to respond within 48 hours.
 
2013-04-26 08:58:30 AM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: I can't imagine why a President might be reluctant to commit US forces to the Middle East and wants to exercise caution.  It's almost as if we've had bad experiences with that kind of thing before and it's turned out badly.



Oh pshaw.
 
2013-04-26 08:58:35 AM  
This didn't just start happening in Syria - it's been going on for over two years.....and our government has known about it the whole time - watching it happen.  It's like knowing that your next door neighbor is beating his wife and kids - and calling the cops (the UN) and they won't do anything about it.  What is our responsibility here?
 
2013-04-26 08:58:36 AM  

orclover: Wait.  Back the fark up.  Syria used chemical weapons and somehow they are not out of Syrians?  We were all led to believe that chemical weapons were huge WMD death dealing superweapons that wiped out entire population centers in minutes.  WTF?   Wheres the millions dead?  Wheres the footage of entire towns wiped out? What the hell?

Did.....did the media lie?  TO US, about the danger of these weapons?  How is that even possible?

Next thing you know we we find out a nuke doesn't instantly destroy the entire world.


8/10
 
2013-04-26 08:58:59 AM  
where IS SYRIA? seriously, i'm asking.
 
2013-04-26 08:59:07 AM  

Aarontology: I've yet to hear a real reason why it's our responsibility to do anything about it.

If we're going to intervene with Syria for humanitarian reasons or because their government is actively oppressing and killing thousands, then there are a lot of other places in the world we'll have to do something about.


Like Libya? Iraq?

Somalia? East Timor?

Balkans?

It is a time honored tradition. As is ignoring those situations. Rwanda, Sudan, North Korea, Iran, Libya, Iraq, Turkey, Myanmar.
 
2013-04-26 08:59:24 AM  

edmo: How about the POTUS asks Congress for a formal declaration of war? They can then debate in the chamber instead of over the airwaves.


3rd time's a charm?
 
2013-04-26 08:59:44 AM  

Gunny Highway: [thecontrariancorner.com image 500x300]


That's a bad example since doesn't Bugs trick him into walking off a cliff?
 
2013-04-26 09:02:13 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: Why do people keep saying this? I don't think we should intervene in Syria but Kosovo was a freaking success and a half. Of course we let Rwanda go to sh*t instead


It may have been at the end, but during that first half we really farked some shiat up
 
2013-04-26 09:02:14 AM  
Tatsuma: .. a bunch of words ...

i am so very happy Tat is posting again.  this guy -- he's got a cool opposing viewpoint to my own in some areas. in other areas, we're right-lined-up- -- an integral part of the Fark landscape.
 
2013-04-26 09:02:50 AM  

FullMetalPanda: Gunny Highway: [thecontrariancorner.com image 500x300]

That's a bad example since doesn't Bugs trick him into walking off a cliff?


After miles of "habitual line stepping."  The timeline is unclear.

/Mostly just like the image of lines in the desert and someone stepping over them
 
2013-04-26 09:03:04 AM  
 
2013-04-26 09:03:39 AM  
Why's it our job to intervene when Syria does something? Why is Syria in our interests?

And why are we trusting Israel's intel on this? Isn't it in Israel's interest that we intervene too?

Seems like a whole lot of crap to get Americans killed over on yet another war.
 
2013-04-26 09:04:39 AM  

Aarontology: I've yet to hear a real reason why it's our responsibility to do anything about it.

If we're going to intervene with Syria for humanitarian reasons or because their government is actively oppressing and killing thousands, then there are a lot of other places in the world we'll have to do something about.


SWEET MOTHERfarkING THIS.

"These people are BAD! Don't you see? They're BAD! We shouldn't wait for a strongly worded letter!"

It's our responsibility as humanitarians to work hard to stop these things, but "strongly worded letters" and pressure are our best and should be our only weapon except in extreme circumstances. Are we supposed to act like the world's police? Should we lose American lives in pursuing scattered dictatorship-overthrowing wars? How can we really fix anything that way, as outside forces swooping in to create a power vacuum?

And, of course, you know the same people who complain about strongly worded letters from the UN are the same who are farking terrified they'll dismantle our sovereignty and make us part of the monolithic United Nations New World Order, and who would be screaming as soon as Obama actually did, say, declare war on Syria to do anything about this.
 
2013-04-26 09:04:43 AM  

edmo: How about the POTUS asks Congress for a formal declaration of war? They can then debate in the chamber instead of over the airwaves.


By now, so many years after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, I think that they've forgotten that they actually need one.
 
2013-04-26 09:05:07 AM  
A few months ago a friend of mine posted some useful info on chem weapons.
http://storify.com/AthertonKD/chemical-clinic

Now, in terms of this incident, we don't know that Assad used chem weapons on the rebels. We haven't seen any footage of people evidencing signs of sarin toxicity. At this point we need to ascertain whether they were deployed against people, or if some FSA guys set off some captured chem ordnance in the middle of nowhere and then made the claim to garner increased world support.
 
2013-04-26 09:05:27 AM  

WTF Indeed: Aarontology: I've yet to hear a real reason why it's our responsibility to do anything about it.

If we're going to intervene with Syria for humanitarian reasons or because their government is actively oppressing and killing thousands, then there are a lot of other places in the world we'll have to do something about.

It's not our responsibility to aid the rebels. It is the UN's responsibility to keep WMDs from being used.

Basically, it boils down to the UN actually having to do their job and the US being the nation that can most effectively carry out the operation. It would look less like Libya, and more like international forces taking over control of WMD storage sites.


But then Libya wasn't supposed to look like Libya either.
 
2013-04-26 09:06:00 AM  

IronOcelot: NOT OUR PROBLEM.

Really. It sucks. It's horrible.
But we have enough debt and shiat to deal with here.


This !!!!!!

www.thegirlsguidetobeer.com
 
2013-04-26 09:06:16 AM  

orclover: Wait.  Back the fark up.  Syria used chemical weapons and somehow they are not out of Syrians?  We were all led to believe that chemical weapons were huge WMD death dealing superweapons that wiped out entire population centers in minutes.  WTF?   Wheres the millions dead?  Wheres the footage of entire towns wiped out? What the hell?


You thought that's what any old chemical weapons did?  Lob a couple gas shells and boom! -- millions dead?

There is plenty of literature available on the actual use of chemical weapons in WWI and 1970's Iran-Iraq and how they work.
 
2013-04-26 09:06:16 AM  

utah dude: where IS SYRIA? seriously, i'm asking.


North of Canada
 
2013-04-26 09:07:21 AM  

karnal: This didn't just start happening in Syria - it's been going on for over two years.....and our government has known about it the whole time - watching it happen.  It's like knowing that your next door neighbor is beating his wife and kids - and calling the cops (the UN) and they won't do anything about it.  What is our responsibility here?


it's hard to say, but you can bet the people that crippled America will blame Obama for America being crippled.
 
2013-04-26 09:07:57 AM  
Is this "we know" like the indisputable "We know Saddam Hussein has WMDs and we know where they are"?
 
2013-04-26 09:07:58 AM  
war crimes?

what american politicians would be experts on war crimes

say in the last 16 years
 
2013-04-26 09:09:05 AM  

404 page not found: Was it white phosphorus? I bet it was white phosphorus.

http://firstlightforum.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/phosphorus-bomb-v ic tim12.jpg nsfw

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/111/Graph/gaza-boy-blinded-by -w hite-phosphorus.jpg nsfw

http://www.bearcanada.com/graphics/fae/israel/gaza067.jpg nsfw

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qssXBGI13CQ/SWM9LOMDFFI/AAAAAAAAAwA/sAbD-l fu bLQ/s400/White+Phosphorus+on+Gaza.jpg nsfw

http://www.bearcanada.com/graphics/fae/israel/israel002.jpg nsfw

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/126472d12656 32 394-white-phosphorus-victims-phospherous.jpg nsfw

/God's chosen people doing God's work


/Xod's chosen people doing Xod's work

FTFT
 
2013-04-26 09:10:17 AM  

RickN99: orclover: Wait.  Back the fark up.  Syria used chemical weapons and somehow they are not out of Syrians?  We were all led to believe that chemical weapons were huge WMD death dealing superweapons that wiped out entire population centers in minutes.  WTF?   Wheres the millions dead?  Wheres the footage of entire towns wiped out? What the hell?

You thought that's what any old chemical weapons did?  Lob a couple gas shells and boom! -- millions dead?

There is plenty of literature available on the actual use of chemical weapons in WWI and 1970's Iran-Iraq and how they work.


I think he was being facetious. Because, you know, when the whole nuke thing fell completely flat with Iraq, people were screaming (and in the case of one Secretary of State who will never be farking forgiven for it brought samples to the UN as props) that Iraq had chemical weapons, and that made them a particularly worse threat to this country. Chemical weapons are bad, but FUD has made them seem like the freaking T virus rather than a particularly horrible munition that does very bad things to people. "They have chemical weapons! They could attack us!" has been used as an excuse, to the point that right-wing assholes are still screaming about old mustard gas found in some bunkers in Iraq.
 
2013-04-26 09:11:21 AM  

Ned Stark: But then Libya wasn't supposed to look like Libya either.


Libya looked exactly what Libya was supposed to look like. The stated NATO goal in Libya was a no-fly zone and to protect civilians from shelling. which meant NATO took out air defenses and mobile armored units.  It's Quadaffi's fault his army was nothing without armored units.
 
2013-04-26 09:12:47 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: IdBeCrazyIf: We really don't need another Kosovo on our hands though

Why do people keep saying this? I don't think we should intervene in Syria but Kosovo was a freaking success and a half. Of course we let Rwanda go to sh*t instead


Except as my Czech friend likes to remind me, Kosovo wasn't a simple case of Albanians good, Serbians bad.
 
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