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(Snopes)   South Carolina church tells pupils the Earth is only thousands of years old, dinosaurs lived with man, and how to snap back at anyone who tells them different. Sorry, did I say church? Make that a fourth grade classroom   (snopes.com) divider line 107
    More: Scary  
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14940 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Apr 2013 at 2:11 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-04-25 11:00:59 PM
10 votes:
It is a private school, to be fair.

Then again, these kids are going to be our fellow citizens. Voters, coworkers, neighbors, etc. Be scared.
2013-04-26 03:15:07 AM
9 votes:
Social and religious conservatives are retarded.
Social and religious conservatives are retarded.
Social and religious conservatives are retarded.
Social and religious conservatives are retarded.

2013-04-25 10:46:43 PM
9 votes:
That is too scary to be snarky about.
2013-04-26 12:58:00 AM
7 votes:
The "were you there?!" retort is undeniably the creepiest aspect of this indoctrination.
2013-04-25 10:59:41 PM
7 votes:
Since it's a private school, I feel more pity than outrage.

We need more STEM, yet we get this shat.
2013-04-26 12:33:44 AM
5 votes:

kxs401: It is a private school, to be fair.

Then again, these kids are going to be our fellow citizens. Voters, coworkers, neighbors,


congressmen....
2013-04-25 11:28:16 PM
5 votes:

MBK: You know anyone can print out tests and claim they are "real deals".

It...is really damn easy.  A few bad clip art pieces, some questions, and OMG INSTANT INTERNET CELEBRITY


Because millions of Americans haven't been clamoring for us to "TEACH THE CONTROVERSY" for how many years now?
2013-04-25 10:50:44 PM
5 votes:
When we are able to move to the stars, "true" Christians will stay behind because they are tied to the Earth. Problem solved eventually.
2013-04-26 02:23:46 AM
4 votes:
The idea that one-size-fits-all education isn't feasible because it doesn't take into consideration the peculiarities of the various localities around America is wrongheaded and leads to crap like this. There should absolutely be national standards that schools should be forced to teach.
2013-04-26 09:20:13 AM
3 votes:
Religion is mental illness

And inflicting it on children is abuse
2013-04-26 04:53:14 AM
3 votes:

Lsherm: Also, this apparently is a very small private school, so mock, but there shouldn't be outrage.  Stupid is as stupid does.


Yeah, but these are the private schools my Governor (Jindal) and legislature is appropriating tax dollars to without holding them to the same standards as public schools. One school in question consists of windowless portable buildings and a strong curriculum of Jesus DVDs. I really, really wish I were making this up.

The state is so poor in education that the argument of allowing parents to send their kids to sectarian or snake-handling schools in order to achieve a better quality of education is what drove this. But let me reiterate - these schools are not being held to any standard, and as of right now are licking chops waiting to bilk the government for as much money as however many students they can cram in.

Look, I went to an awesome Catholic school. We were taught the Classics, religion in not such a fervent light, ACTUAL SCIENCE, and though I was told there would be no math, we got real versions of that, too. But many of the schools lining at Jindal's trough are fly-by-night sh*tholes that issue tests like the one alleged here. And once again - because I can't stress this enough - the voucher program was wildly popular even when it became clear that many of these schools weren't being audited for effectiveness and funds the way the public ones are.

This state breaks my heart. New Orleans, for all her problems, is actually a wonderful cultural center and among the most unique places in the States. Blue as all hell, too - even the white folks. The suburbs, while Red, are at least populated by people who have decent jobs and merely want their kids to succeed in a properly academic religious school like my parents did. But then there's the rest of the state wanting that one asshole Sunday school teacher we all had as children to be responsible for teaching their kids full-time. With Jindal trying to position his TeaPubican cred for 2016, they got it. And once he starts really ramping up the speeches, he'll claim credit for giving Louisiana families the opportunity of giving their kids a quality education while no one in the 'liberal media' will bother to mention that it's often about Noah saving the ecosystem instead of those kids being taught fundamental life science.

Fark Louisiana. But please don't nuke my city from orbit. We're pretty cool. Hell, it's Jazz Fest right now. You'd be killing hundreds of thousands of tourists who are just here to Get Down.
2013-04-26 03:44:55 AM
3 votes:
Awright farkers, please forgive me for mistakes in this post but i'm getting a migraine and am half-blind from the aura at the moment. but this has seriously bugged me for a long time and i've never received a good answer.

so let's take the evangelical christian view as given, at least the core of it and forgive my jewish arse for getting a detail wrong -

1 - god is loving, caring and benevolent, if perhaps a wee bit tempermantal or murderous at times.
2 - god created the universe and mankind about 6000 years ago
3 - shortly afterwards, adam and eve ate the apple and thus doomed all mankind to sin, and thus to eternal suffering in the afterlife unless they were saved.
4 - said salvation was given by his son, jesus, through his sacrifice about 2000 years ago. only through faith in jesus can sin be forgiven and humans can escape hell and enter heaven.

the problem i have is that there is a pretty big gap between creation, or even the fall - even start with god rebooting the earth with the flood, and the appearance of jesus. in that time, there was no means of salvation. so that means that everyone must have been condemned to hell.

everyone! that means everyone in the old testament, including the prophets. Abraham must be suffering in hell, as must noah, isaac, even moses was able to, thanks to god, lead the hebrews out of slavery and to the promised land, but still with no jesus not a one of them could escape the fires of hell.

plus don't forget the others around. socrates, plato, aristotle, lao-tzu, confucious, all the great thinkers, the poets, the engineers and mathematicians who built civilisation, who looked up in wonder at the universe, who built the great library at alexandria, all roasting in hell because they had the misfortune to die before jesus.

and that's just the locals. what about, say, the ones living in the americas? they had no way of learning about jesus and the one and only chance at salvation until after columbus. and what about the ones in oceania? or those wee islands in the south pacific? some of these places never had a missionary or a bible until the 20th century! and why? because our kind, just and loving god who is all powerful decidede to sit on his majestic arse for a few thousand years before finally sending his son, and then only sent him to one corner of the world.

so whch is it? i'll come back once my meds have kicked in because i genuinely want to know. do i have my theology wrong or has god committed a massive injustice upon millions of people born with no chance of redemption?
2013-04-26 03:01:42 AM
3 votes:
The best thing about insane people saying "Were you there?" is that you can then ask "Were you?"
2013-04-26 02:37:14 AM
3 votes:

Strolpol: /I mean really, do you WANT your deity to have the mentality of a psychotic child?


Clearly they do. I think it's something like in the Matrix, where Agent Smith says something like they tried to give humans a paradise to live in, but they kept dying or waking up. They had to give us this sh*t world to make us believe it.
2013-04-26 02:30:12 AM
3 votes:
I think the thing that hits me most is the "were you there" refutation, which would single-handedly nullify most of history.

Seriously though, I would tell them that I would much rather dinosaurs have lived millions of years ago rather than having to accept that God planted millions of fossils with the express purpose of trying to dick with scientists and test the true faith of believers.

/I mean really, do you WANT your deity to have the mentality of a psychotic child?
2013-04-26 12:47:27 AM
3 votes:

impaler: Lsherm: We don't, there's another link somewhere that got greenlit. We're already exceeding demand, companies just want cheaper labor from overseas.

Well that's probably true, but I'm willing to take a salary hit to live in a better world.


What the hell does that even mean?  Imagine you're a low-skilled worker in the US.  Illegal immigration has decimated the market for your skills, because people are willing to work for less than minimum wage to do your job.

Now extrapolate that out to whatever market you work in.  Someone with an H1B visa is willing to work for half your rate, so they get hired.  Then companies lobby congress for more H1B visas so they can replace everyone with less expensive workers.  More importantly, those workers are defined as temporary, so even if you're willing to work for that lower rate, you can't get hired, because you're an actual employee.

What "better world" is this?  How do you think you win?
2013-04-26 12:26:06 AM
3 votes:
I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.
2013-04-26 12:21:54 AM
3 votes:
These are the people we have to live with.

What this is is unacceptable.

I am unsure if this is due to ultrahyperpartisanship or not. Its hard to tell these days now that everything that the GOP does is extreme.
MBK [TotalFark]
2013-04-25 11:19:26 PM
3 votes:
You know anyone can print out tests and claim they are "real deals".

It...is really damn easy.  A few bad clip art pieces, some questions, and OMG INSTANT INTERNET CELEBRITY
2013-04-26 04:06:15 PM
2 votes:
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2013-04-26 01:04:19 PM
2 votes:
i14.photobucket.com


i14.photobucket.com

i14.photobucket.com
2013-04-26 09:08:32 AM
2 votes:

mikefinch: And god is not constrained by reality -- rather reality is constrained by god.


You don't realize it, but you just said "God doesn't exist."
2013-04-26 06:41:00 AM
2 votes:
What a horrible thing to do to children...

Honestly, the fundies in this country have grown increasingly insane over the decades. I went to a born-again Christian grammar and middle school and, while this type of nonsense was believed by most of the teachers and administration, it wasn't really pushed in the science curriculum, but rather in "Bible class" and weekly chapel.

I feel sorry for these kids. They're going to get a real wake-up call when they find themselves out in the world surrounded by people who don't believe nonsense like this.
2013-04-26 06:09:03 AM
2 votes:

miss diminutive: This hurt my brain.


wifey and i want to get banned from there just so our parents will stop asking us to go...

But yeah... abortions, nazis, homosexuals, and animals attacking people, all in a world without god... which, coincidentally, is the world we live in!
2013-04-26 06:03:16 AM
2 votes:

Ranger Rover: ArcadianRefugee: kxs401: It is a private school, to be fair.

Then again, these kids are going to be our fellow citizens. Voters, coworkers, neighbors,

congressmen....

Not teaching kids basic science is scary, but so is encroaching upon the freedom to privately educate and exercise religion, so I don't know where to end up on this one....


Easy.  Make it illegal to take a kid to church, temple, synagogue, or mosque until they turn 18.

After that, go nuts.

Be interesting to see which religions would thrive if they had to rely on ADULT converts.
2013-04-26 05:32:03 AM
2 votes:
I've only known a few creationists and in my few conversations with them I was struck with how they viewed evolution and science. For them, at least the ones I spoke to, if evolution were true and the bible was fallible it would mean that there would be no purpose to life. It either had to all be true, or none of it was true, which is just a ludicrous set of conditions if you ask me.

But they never disputed evolution on any sort of scientific grounds. They never spoke of intelligent design, or god burying fossils or any of that nonsense, it was simply "I don't believe that because it means we'd have no purpose". Their view of the world was completely centred around there being a god that created the Earth as it was and made a heaven and a hell. They couldn't part with this belief any more than they could part with the marrow in their bones. It was true ignorance, but ignorance coming from a sense of self-preservation.
2013-04-26 04:21:52 AM
2 votes:

Ranger Rover: Death Eats a Cracker: kazikian: I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?

Just stop.

Why? This seems like a completely reasonable worldview. That leads to the ability to teach kids basic scientific principles while adhering to the glory of the creator, whatever that may mean to individual people. Really, at this point, what better could you ask for? That we stomp out freedom of religion altogether? I think kazikian's statement gets to the heart of the best of all compromises, (although doctrine means it may not bear out in all individual cases) - that science is taught in the science classroom and religion in the religion classroom (or church). Let smart kids draw their own conclusions - they will.



Part of this worldview that you speak of consists of ancient mythology created by people who didn't know where the sun went at night.

Again, just stop.
2013-04-26 04:12:56 AM
2 votes:

impaler: Steak_Cake_Sause: One cop-out is that if they never received the Word then they go straight to haven just like an aborted fetus.

Helpful?

True. Some day I mean to start a "Abortion - strengthening God's army" campaign....


2.bp.blogspot.com
2013-04-26 03:28:51 AM
2 votes:
Ahh -- Likely real.

I remember i went to a 7th day adventist private school for junior high... (wanted out of the public system -- bullying sucks -- when i came back to it 3 years later the problems were gone...) And the SDA schools do push this stuff.

We had a pretty good science text book -- it delved into genetics and evolution and all the usual crap quite well so that wasnt a problem for me. The textbook had a title page for each chapter with a little blurb relating the subject matter to god but other than that it left god out of science. I think part of that is they picked nonbiased books because the kids had to do well on provincial exams for them to keep getting a subsidy.

They would give tests like this to kids in the 3-6 grades. Yup. I have seen it.

More rambling:

The teacher and the school staff and board were not so cool. Let me stress -- i am NOT SDA. My two best friends growing up however were and i spent tons of time in their church. I however was a waaaay to geeky kid (as i said -- bullies) and anything involving natural science made my pants tingle... I remember the SDA pastor being at the school one day and he was talking to the students about evolution and i asked him some pointed questions regarding their 6000 year earth theory. He came back with some crap about how the flood would have changed the air pressure so even the dinosaurs on the ark would have died because their lung capacity was too small or something. Like he pulled it straight out of his ass. I knew damn well he was full of shiat. I remember at the age of 14 being completely disgusted with a grown mans capacity for rational thought.

They really honest to god believe the sharp dinosaur teeth on things like T-Rex or Albertosaurus were made to cut through plant matter. I challenged them on that when i heard it and they insisted the serrated blade like teeth were for munching tough plant matter.

They told me not to drink milk because Adam and Eve would have just had water and juice. Like milking a cow is somehow against gods plan. You know -- the same god that promised a land of milk and honey?

They believe that Jesus turned water into juice rather than wine (they are all teetotalers) -- despite tons of evidence in the surrounding text pointing to the fact that everyone was wasted.

They were convinced the catholic pope would one day rule the world and make observance of the Jewish holy day illegal and force everyone on earth to go to church on Sunday. Then Jesus would return and save those who went to church on Saturday instead of Sunday and kept up with Jewish food laws even though Jesus tell his disciples its not important...

They don't dance. At all. Even at weddings. When i asked why i was informed dance was nothing but 'thinly veiled sex acts'. Weddings with no booze or dancing (just someones cousin playing pachbels canon in D over and over on the cello they ostensibly play other things on however i have never heard anything but canon in D come out of that guys cello) Well those get terrible fast. My sister almost walked out of my best friends wedding because the vows were nothing but misogyny and there was no booze or dance reward for it.

They wouldn't allow drums in their church because thats how indigenous (read coloured) people talk to satan. Im not kidding about that. My friend wanted to play some music for a skit he was doing for vacation bible school and an elder forbid it because it had drums and he cited that as a reason. I was there. I heard it. My buddy tried to object but was told he was trying to 'rationalize sinning' and when he complained to his parents that the church was f'ing crazy they told him to sit on it because the elder was a crazy old man and he was a church elder and the church followed and sometimes they might not agree with the rules but they had to follow them. Yeah -- Basically admitted he was wrong but they said they would obey his crazy because he was in charge.

I love this line -- they use it soooo often: Don't rationalize sin.

Think about that -- dont rationalize sin... Its like an automatic screw you to any reasoned though that opposes their dogma.  And yet their lord rationalized 'sinning' to pull a lamb from a well on the sabbath...

I dont have any real beef with christians, I do have a beef with the SDA church. It seems more like a cult than a church.
2013-04-26 03:01:09 AM
2 votes:

EvilPun: grimlock1972: Sadly its this kind of crap why we need federal oversight of education curriculum.

It's a private school so no, they could teach Hitler and Buddah had a gay sex orgy in Guam if they wanted to.


I don't think an organization should be able to hide behind the facade of being a private school when they are deliberately crippling the children in their care.
2013-04-26 02:37:01 AM
2 votes:

NewportBarGuy: MisterTweak: I'm going to say "likely shenanigans". The creationist crowd doesn't use that kind of snark on themselves. PZ Meyers get trolled or something?

They don't teach exactly what is on that test? Check yourself.


Oh yes.

3.bp.blogspot.com

Reading it right now. Makes me weep for humanity.
2013-04-26 02:33:57 AM
2 votes:
Dummy: God created the earth 6 thousand years ago.

Me: Were you there?
2013-04-26 02:30:37 AM
2 votes:

Lsherm: impaler: Lsherm: We don't, there's another link somewhere that got greenlit. We're already exceeding demand, companies just want cheaper labor from overseas.

Well that's probably true, but I'm willing to take a salary hit to live in a better world.

What the hell does that even mean?  Imagine you're a low-skilled worker in the US.  Illegal immigration has decimated the market for your skills, because people are willing to work for less than minimum wage to do your job.

Now extrapolate that out to whatever market you work in.  Someone with an H1B visa is willing to work for half your rate, so they get hired.  Then companies lobby congress for more H1B visas so they can replace everyone with less expensive workers.  More importantly, those workers are defined as temporary, so even if you're willing to work for that lower rate, you can't get hired, because you're an actual employee.

What "better world" is this?  How do you think you win?


It's not winning and losing.  It's about stopping exploitation.  it's staring us in the face.  The currently exploited workers in India and China will rise up.  In the next 3 decades the playing field will be leveled and Americans will have to strive even harder to find good jobs.  Simultaneously, all of our outsourcing will go to even poorer countries in Africa and the Middle East.  And we'll exploit those people as long as we can.
2013-04-26 02:16:31 AM
2 votes:
www.disbeliefnet.com

Came for Dinosaur Jesus...had to bring him myself.
2013-04-26 01:04:36 AM
2 votes:

Apos: The "were you there?!" retort is undeniably the creepiest aspect of this indoctrination.


And the stupidest. No one was there for 6000 years either.

Or Jesus.
2013-04-26 12:34:15 AM
2 votes:

impaler: Since it's a private school, I feel more pity than outrage.

We need more STEM, yet we get this shat.


We don't, there's another link somewhere that got greenlit.  We're already exceeding demand, companies just want cheaper labor from overseas.

Also, this apparently is a very small private school, so mock, but there shouldn't be outrage.  Stupid is as stupid does.
2013-04-26 12:16:01 AM
2 votes:

PC LOAD LETTER: When we are able to move to the stars, "true" Christians will stay behind because they are tied to the Earth. Problem solved eventually.


Difficulty: Those "true" Christians will do everything in their power to prevent anyone from being able to move to the stars.

/also, they put sugar in their porridge
2013-04-26 12:12:51 AM
2 votes:

MisterTweak: I'm going to say "likely shenanigans". The creationist crowd doesn't use that kind of snark on themselves. PZ Meyers get trolled or something?


They don't teach exactly what is on that test? Check yourself.
2013-04-25 11:31:08 PM
2 votes:
I'm going to say "likely shenanigans". The creationist crowd doesn't use that kind of snark on themselves. PZ Meyers get trolled or something?
2013-04-25 11:07:28 PM
2 votes:
That makes me very sad.

Well, the part where rubes part with their money to make their kids retards is what makes me sad.
2013-04-27 12:42:06 PM
1 votes:

a_real_human_being: I'm just saying that according to formal logic (as used in branches of philosophy), it cannot be rejected until you can satisfy the first condition.


I think it's merely that it can't be rejected as definitely false... I don't think formal logic says anything about what makes the most sense to believe... After all, you could construct pretty much an infinite number of mutually conflicting such conditional statements; they can't all be true... As such, why believe any of them are true?

Again, I think this is where a lot of people get bogged down with regard to atheist vs. agnostic vs. whatever... By saying I'm an atheist, I'm not totally rejecting the possible existence of a god; I'm merely stating that I don't personally believe in one... I'm not making a declaration about the absolute reality of things, merely my belief about them based on what evidence I've seen... Some people like to call that agnostic; and, it is! But, the thing is that's not mutually exclusive with being an atheist... I'm both... I'm agnostic because I don't know, and I'm atheist because I don't believe...
2013-04-27 12:51:32 AM
1 votes:

grxymkjbn: a_real_human_being: If you want to learn about the "mind" and you INSIST on reading philosophy

Actually, I prefer neuro chemestry/physics; I think philosophy is... somewhat over-rated.

I know I am stupid and I am eager to learn.  :) Have you anything to teach me?  {:)


Well, *I* don't, per say, but I know LOTS of people who do! :) Now, this isn't me just listing books for the sake of it, these are all AWESOME. I've listed them in order according to how I would have preferred to read them (before I knew anything about the subjects):

http://www.amazon.com/dp/014005703X/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0143113100/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0143113100/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1451607946/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0684853949/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1590510178/
www.amazon.com/dp/0060988479/
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0823609626/

The last three are a bit more technical (i.e., more detailed neurology) than the earlier ones, but nothing too extravagant. Oh, and I misspoke before, there is ONE book that could be argued to fall within the discipline of philosophy (but I'd say it's more cognitive science) that's pretty darn good:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0198529910/

Enjoy!

/a couple of the books are out of print, but they are WELL WORTH tracking down (imho, of course)
//kinda wish I could read all eight for the first time again :D
2013-04-26 11:30:06 PM
1 votes:
Heh, philosophy is being sneaky and debate is being smart.
2013-04-26 11:10:07 PM
1 votes:

grxymkjbn: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just to be sure I'm clear here, I have never taken any philosophy classes.

Neither have I taken any  philosophy classes...  but I have read extensive synopsis of all the major  schools of philosophy... and when considered objectively, I can only conclude that they're all shiat.  (shrug)

Study epistemology, if you're truly interested.  The mind is a fascinating topic.


img441.imageshack.us

Oh my god, no no no. Epistemology is the study of knowledge (i.e., what are the necessary and sufficient conditions for belief). Traditional epistemology has practically nothing to do with "the mind" at all. Here's an example, from a leading author in the field: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0415552982

It's the kind of material that can be interesting to chat with your friends about for an hour or so, but trying to read academic papers in the subject makes me want to do what Uchiha_Cycliste's green cartoon guy was doing above.

If you want to learn about the "mind" and you INSIST on reading philosophy, then the only thing I can suggest is: http://www.amazon.com/dp/026253200X. And even then, I'd always recommend that people avoid philosophy... there's a gazillion awesome books in the disciplines of psychology and neuroscience.
2013-04-26 11:02:48 PM
1 votes:

grxymkjbn: Uchiha_Cycliste: Just to be sure I'm clear here, I have never taken any philosophy classes.

Neither have I taken any  philosophy classes...  but I have read extensive synopsis of all the major  schools of philosophy... and when considered objectively, I can only conclude that they're all shiat.  (shrug)

Study epistemology, if you're truly interested.  The mind is a fascinating topic.


I am plenty occupied with my work, the techniacl depths of which are frequently overwhelming. (comp Architecture is fascinating). And when it does come time to argue something I enjoy having to draw upon my knowledge and experiences and try to create an argument. Thanks though srsly.
2013-04-26 10:49:40 PM
1 votes:
God creates existence out of love. God creates humans in his image out of love. God then puts the one thing he doesn't want humans touching right in the middle of the garden, then does a piss-poor job of keeping bad things from happening. When the serpent convinces the humans to eat the fruit of knowledge (which wasn't difficult at all since they knew nothing of right and wrong), God responds by cursing all of creation to punish all of humanity that would ever exist. He then spends the next few thousand years being a vicious, tyrannical, trolling hypocrite. Then he enacts a long, convoluted, and ultimately pointless way of "forgiving" humanity of the sins that God created and allowed to happen by sending a piece of himself down to "die" and then resurrects it to bring it up and make it part of himself again. Somehow this was supposed to allow us into heaven. But if we don't use the free will he gave us to kowtow to him 24/7/365 and swear our fealty to him, then we'll be condemned to eternal and unspeakable torture, and it doesn't matter how good we are in life, if we don't say the magic words then the kindest saint burns alongside the mass murderers and child rapists. Out of love.

Tell me again WHY I should follow a monster like this?
2013-04-26 10:46:53 PM
1 votes:

Calipataa: PC LOAD LETTER: When we are able to move to the stars, "true" Christians will stay behind because they are tied to the Earth. Problem solved eventually.

I'm not a Christian, but I kind of like the earth - are you going to leave me alone here with these crazies?


Every one of those alien worlds will be inhabited -- by a Mormon and his wives and children (assuming he "seals" his wives rather than letting them go to Hell in favour of some new trophy wives. They will happily inbreed incestuously for all eternity. (Sounds like the way humanity got this world: Man, Woman, Apple, Incest for the next 6,000 years. And they wondered why their life expectancy dropped off from hundreds of years to a few decades.)

So it's really po-tay-toe, po-tat-oh.

The Roman Catholic Church has a contingency plan for just such an occurence. Since they burned Giovanno Bruno at the stake for (among other heresies) suggesting that there is life and intelligent beings on other worlds, they've been thinking his proposal over, and have come up with plans to convert the heathen aliens should they be discovered or discover us. Should they prove to be Roman Catholics already, there will be no need. Jesus will have ensured that they got the memo.

Many fundamentalists believe in UFOS but believe they are piloted by Satan's armies of demons. They will simply attempt to wage war on the aliens. Who will kill us all.

And this, Mr. Fermi, is why the neighbors do not call us. They don't want to disturb the Loonies any further, to borrow a happy turn of phrase from paraplegic cartoonist John Callahan. (Creator of Quads. Yaaaaay! A Canada-Australia Coproduction of one of America's greatest Gimp geniuses.)
2013-04-26 10:30:17 PM
1 votes:
If a mouthy fourth grader tells you the Creation of the World happened only a few thousand years ago answer them like this.

You are a child. I am an adult. What do you know about the Creation of the World? I WAS THERE, DAMMIT!

If they are gullible enough to believe Creationist clap trap, they might believe you. Problem solved, if and until they reach the age of reason.

When the royal astronomers explained the Ptolemaic system to King Alphonso X of Spain he remarked that if he had been present at the Creation, he would have advised God to try something simpler.
2013-04-26 09:58:53 PM
1 votes:
It sounds like philosophy begins to step on the toes of: discrete mathematics  probability theory, algorithms and intractable problems; but probably jut exposes only what is necessary to continue with the philosophy. Nasty, nasty math. Ony class i've ever taken where 2 weeks in I said:
media.tumblr.com
And dropped the class. Multi-var calc was a cake walk in comparison.
2013-04-26 09:33:52 PM
1 votes:

grxymkjbn: Uchiha_Cycliste: Put another way, for some reason conservatives need the fear of eternal damnation constantly reiterated in order for them to not act like dicks. What sad, sorry, scary people. That is what he's saying right?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/04/are-liberals-and -c onservatives-hard-wired-to-disagree/237075/

There is an abnormally high corelation within the population of self-identified conservatives with a hypertrophied amygdala, which hypersensitizes them to stimulus of images of sex, fear and repugnance.  There have been quite a few peer-reviewed studies which appear to support the observations.


I think it actually makes a lot of sense if you use the literal meaning of conservative, one who strives to  to ensure that everything remains constantduring a potential process of change. They are conservatives because they are resistant to any change, and they are resistant to change because they fear it. They may not be super happy, or hell! they may not be happy at all; but they prefer the shiat they know to a future of unknowns. I'm not sure I explained my ideas super well, I'm tired from riding home... does that make sense?
2013-04-26 08:33:19 PM
1 votes:

IRQ12: Fanatical atheists (yes, there are) probably dislike agnostics more than theists because they think they are "on the fence".


The Altemeyer/Hunsberger data suggests that is somewhat unlikely, unless you're explicitly defining a subset of atheists as "fanatic" by the criterion of "disliking agnostics more than theists".

alfuso: where in the Bible does it say the earth is 6000 years old?


There's about half a dozen passages giving dates between events, which together give at least one time span from between the creation of the world and the Babylonian exile... which has external dating references.

grxymkjbn: I'm sorry if it seems that I'm pretending to be a serious student of logic or philosophy or... well, anything, really.


Quite all right. I'm hardly one either.

grxymkjbn: Could you please share your understanding of it? If possible, in layman's terms?


It's a starting point for getting to Boolean propositional logic. You can take the 10 Boolean axioms directly and work from there, or you can take the Commutativity and Associativity for OR, plus the Robbins Axiom which more or less states ((P NOR Q) NOR (P NOR (NOT Q))) is P, and derive the ten main Boolean axioms before going on.

There's other ways to get there as well. "Wolfram's Axiom" is sufficient in itself... but that approach and starting point are pretty incomprehensible.

mikefinch: I'm just saying its possible that there is more to the universe than what we have the ability to comprehend, observe, or experience.


...while trying to insinuate some options are probably the case, when the evidence suggests that they probably aren't.

Anyway, I have to argue about flying saucers on the beach with people, you know. And I was interested in this: they keep arguing that it is possible. And that's true. It is possible. They do not appreciate that the problem is not to demonstrate whether it's possible or not but whether it's going on or not. - Richard Feynman

mikefinch: God is not bound to logic.


Depends what you mean by "logic". Are you saying God is not subject to the Commutativity of Logical Inclusive Disjunction -- that (P OR Q) is equivalent to (Q OR P) such that either disjunctive combination implies the other?
2013-04-26 04:23:19 PM
1 votes:

mephox: Better yet, ask them to point to the exact passage in the bible that says the earth was created on such and such date. They can't because its not there.


Actually, it's about a dozen or so passages all in all. The time spans given for separating various events can be added up to get to the time between creation and the return from Babylonian exile, which then dates to external chronologies.

Of course, measurement uncertainties leave about two decades of uncertainty (assuming conventional "significant figures" precision), and there's some internal inconsistencies -- but those are separate questions from there being at least one answer from the Bible.

I sound fat: Both theories are equally theories.


img1.fark.net Benchmark SC.3.N.3.1: Recognize that words in science can have different or more specific meanings than their use in everyday language; for example, energy, cell, heat/cold, and evidence.
img1.fark.net Benchmark SC.6.N.3.1: Recognize and explain that a scientific theory is a well-supported and widely accepted explanation of nature and is not simply a claim posed by an individual. Thus, the use of the term theory in science is very different than how it is used in everyday life.
img1.fark.net Benchmark SC.912.N.3.1: Explain that a scientific theory is the culmination of many scientific investigations drawing together all the current evidence concerning a substantial range of phenomena; thus, a scientific theory represents the most powerful explanation scientists have to offer.


kazikian: I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion.


It's the same as with any kind of science-religion incompatibility: it depends whether you're dealing with them as bodies of knowledge or abstract methodologies. While potentially compatible, in particular instance they can collide.

Ranger Rover: So what's the right answer? How do we balance these objectives?


Social but not legal sanction. Have religious "education" be legal, but publicly mocked whenever the civilized world hear about it.

grxymkjbn: But logic is not a creation of humans, it's merely an astute observation OF realty.


It's not limited to talking about reality; it's more a means for connecting ideas.

grxymkjbn: The first law of logic is called the law of identity and states that a thing IS what it IS: A=A.


I prefer starting with the Commutativity of Logical Inclusive Disjunction. (The reflexive property usually can get derived from other more necessary axioms.)
Try putting down the Ayn Rand and looking up the proof of the Robbins Conjecture.
2013-04-26 03:44:22 PM
1 votes:

lordaction: dustygrimp: lordaction: Keizer_Ghidorah: lordaction: This is great news.  Ever since the cultural marxists took God out of the classroom the education system has crumbled.  Coincidence?

You really need some new material.

No I don't.  Liberals believe in moral relativity and that is one of the things I am fighting against.

Are you talking about descriptive, meta-ethical or normative moral relativism?  I would also like a citation indicating where the set of all liberals is wholly included in the set of moral relativists.

Citation?  Read a newspaper. The only absolutes the left has is that Islamic terrorism doesn't exist and the government should be involved in every aspect of every citizen's life.


Selective response.

/Obvious troll is obvious... and ill-prepared.
2013-04-26 03:24:53 PM
1 votes:

lordaction: Keizer_Ghidorah: lordaction: This is great news.  Ever since the cultural marxists took God out of the classroom the education system has crumbled.  Coincidence?

You really need some new material.

No I don't.  Liberals believe in moral relativity and that is one of the things I am fighting against.


Are you talking about descriptive, meta-ethical or normative moral relativism?  I would also like a citation indicating where the set of all liberals is wholly included in the set of moral relativists.
2013-04-26 02:38:06 PM
1 votes:

a_real_human_being: As Webster's suggests, an atheist is: "one who believes that there is no deity."


Yeah, but I prefer the OED definition instead: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods...

Again, due to the scientific method, I cannot categorically state that there is NO "diety", because: (a) that's an INSANELY vague statement. (b) there's no convincing evidence one way or the other.

It's not about stating categorically what the absolute reality of the situation is, but merely about stating your belief about what the situation is... I think most of us atheists are indeed agnostic as well... We don't claim absolute knowledge that there's no god... We just don't believe in one... Many of us may even actively disbelieve that there are any at all... But, you show us some evidence of one, and we might change our minds... Until then, we'll choose to believe there's probably not one... Just like we go on believing there's probably no bigfoot or Loch Ness Monster, even though there could possibly be...
2013-04-26 12:53:48 PM
1 votes:

a_real_human_being: give me doughnuts: a_real_human_being: /personally, I believe the rise in radical atheism has contributed the rise of creationism in the U.S.

I think you've got it backwards.

[img13.imageshack.us image 320x301]

Indeed, it's surely a reciprocal relationship, with both sides contributing to the rise of the other.

/worth clarifying
//thx


radical atheism? What, like not giving a fark as hard as you can?
2013-04-26 12:35:16 PM
1 votes:

Ranger Rover: The biggest difference, though, is that science is dynamic and tends to reverse itself in the face of irrefutable proof, whereas religious beliefs are static - based on incontrovertible truths - and don't. What would you say to that?

-=-
I would say "Follow the money".

In both situations there are cases (no, not going to cite them) where truth and logic get tossed for the sake of money, and with it comes "control" in some form or fashion.

We know what is causing cancer, but it would cause economic hardships on the profiteers of such items that they throw money (a monkey wrench) into the machine to have a preferred outcome of continuation, rather than the logical one of regulation or cancellation.

We know religion has it's great points such as caring for the elderly, helping those who can't help themselves, etc. (what I would call "purpose"), but there are those who will twist it to benefit them over the purpose. They have to drive fine cars, eat very well, have gold plated faucets in the bathroom, travel first class and stay at the best hotels, all the while causing hate, division and fear among and from the believers, sucking money from them and using it to fund their aberrant behavior.

People, usually the ones making the money, are the cause of the rest of us having to ingest the cancerous "bad" we know is there and try to avoid. (It's not the gun the shoots a person, but the one pulling the trigger.)

Science is your friend. Doing good, in the name of religion (if you must), is also your friend.
But YOU MUST be aware of those who will cause them to be your enemy.
2013-04-26 12:23:28 PM
1 votes:

CrazyCracka420: [s22.postimg.org image 280x384]


s21.postimg.org


profile.ak.fbcdn.net

\subtle?
2013-04-26 12:19:16 PM
1 votes:

a_real_human_being: /personally, I believe the rise in radical atheism has contributed the rise of creationism in the U.S.



I think you've got it backwards.
2013-04-26 12:04:02 PM
1 votes:
memedepot.com
2013-04-26 11:58:10 AM
1 votes:
img855.imageshack.us

Dear America,

I know that radical belief in the Christian Bible doesn't reflect your entire country's way of thinking. However, it is worryingly present in a number of areas. Think about how your citizens feel about Middle Eastern countries teaching their children a literal interpretation of the Koran for science class and you'll understand how the rest of the Western world feels about you teaching your children a literal interpretation of the Christian Bible for science class. It scares us, because you have the most nukes.

Sincerely,

The internet

/personally, I believe the rise in radical atheism has contributed the rise of creationism in the U.S.
//people still confuse specific scientific findings with the scientific method
///shame
2013-04-26 11:44:41 AM
1 votes:
s22.postimg.org

s21.postimg.org
2013-04-26 11:01:23 AM
1 votes:

kazikian: I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?


It's so cool, in fact, that no god is needed to accomplish such a feat. How cool is that?
2013-04-26 09:18:17 AM
1 votes:
The Bible is inerrant truth!

How do you know?

Because God wrote it!

Were you there?
2013-04-26 08:58:46 AM
1 votes:
Whats more existentially terrifying for me is that the vast uncaring universe exists at all. And to be honest i do have emotional anguish related to it. I get freaking depressed. Very very depressed. Mostly because i feel like my soul is caught doing a permanent impression of Edvard munches 'the scream' in reaction to just being here. Its not just terrifying and horrifying enough to be conscious and have to live and die and figure all that shiat out but people have to be horrible terrible sunsofbiatches while you try to do it... And then to comprehend your unintended propagation of that system that so disgusts you... Its just... farked up. Whether you believe in god or not ...

Try Buddhism. Seriously. It can help make peace with that terror by embracing that terror - and letting it go.
2013-04-26 08:45:39 AM
1 votes:

TheBigJerk: Even more existentially terrifying?  "Human" is only transitional as well, and will ultimately give way to something greater.  Meaning we are something lesser.  Meaning OH GOD THE EMOTIONAL ANGUISH!


It's been argued that intelligent life stops evolving because we change the environment to suit us.  Natural selection, survival of the fittest and all that jazz relies upon a species doing battle with a harmful environment and being predated upon. When these pressures cease there is no longer any reason for the species to further advance. Also, given our species tendency to shun and discard anything not *exactly* like us, even if a newer, better, mutated human came about the odds are very poor that they will have the opportunity to reproduce their mutations.

\neat argument huh?
2013-04-26 08:43:44 AM
1 votes:
Ahhh, the power of Faith.

How are the American Fundamentalists any different from the savages in Southern Africa that rape infants to cure AIDs, or these people in Chile who have plenty of similarities with the people here at home. It isn't just Christians either, there is a whole town in upstate New York where women are physically attacked for not covering their heads in public, and the local "law enforcement" agency consults with a full-time Rabbi on the city's payroll before leveling charges, even in the cases of rape, incest and domestic violence including outright murder.


Humans are not going to mature as a species until we forsake these pre-literacy, old world belief systems. The big religion companies know this, and that is why they are doing everything they can, legal and otherwise to destroy the public education system in this country.
2013-04-26 08:41:10 AM
1 votes:

PunkTiger: WTF is it with fundies and children? Why does all the bad stuff ONLY happen to kids? Doesn't anyone make it to adulthood in that "world without God?" Where are the farking adults?? They continually play the CHILDREN card like they're infatuated with them, or something.


Those things are targeted at children. There's really only two times in your life when you're susceptible to people selling afterlife insurance: when you are too young to identify bullshiat or preparing to die and terrified of death. Indoctrinate the kids in your hermetically sealed world view by associating not believing in it with the worst things they can imagine, being burned, being devoured by wolves, being locked away forever, etc and they'll shy away from anything that questions that world view for the rest of their life.
2013-04-26 08:33:40 AM
1 votes:

CeroX: Seriously, they have a room labeled "The world without God", which features various displays like a newspaper that headlines "Children attacked by packs of wolves" and a video clip of a mother telling her 12 year old to get an abortion, Another newspaper article that reads "Homosexuals recruiting children" and a bunch of other stupid nonsense...


WTF is it with fundies and children? Why does all the bad stuff ONLY happen to kids? Doesn't anyone make it to adulthood in that "world without God?" Where are the farking adults?? They continually play the CHILDREN card like they're infatuated with them, or something.

That should tell you something.
2013-04-26 07:52:40 AM
1 votes:
Why does nobody question why it's titled "4th Grade Science Quiz?"!

Smells like total bullshiat to me.
2013-04-26 07:40:41 AM
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: redundantman: Excellent!  A Fark thread on creationism.  Humanity can FINALLY put this argument behind it after the resident titans of intellect weigh in with their prepared statements.

That has already happened. Creationists are a punchline.


I wish i could agree with you, but these people are dictating curriculum in states and trying to control curriculum nation wide from a federal level... I'm not saying that the feds are seriously considering it right now, but who knows what will happen if more of these idiots are elected into office...
2013-04-26 07:38:28 AM
1 votes:

Apos: The "were you there?!" retort is undeniably the creepiest aspect of this indoctrination.


My reply: No. Were you? Did you see Skyman create the heavens and Earth? Oh, it's in a book? Did you see the book get written?

It's a seriously dumb lack of an argument.
2013-04-26 07:35:17 AM
1 votes:

redundantman: Excellent!  A Fark thread on creationism.  Humanity can FINALLY put this argument behind it after the resident titans of intellect weigh in with their prepared statements.


That has already happened. Creationists are a punchline.
2013-04-26 07:28:27 AM
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Well, considering that a liberal TN school is teaching kids that blowing up Israeli teenagers is a good thing, this seems pretty mild, if stupid.


zzzzzzzz
2013-04-26 07:26:54 AM
1 votes:
Well, considering that a liberal TN school is teaching kids that blowing up Israeli teenagers is a good thing, this seems pretty mild, if stupid.
2013-04-26 06:46:49 AM
1 votes:

miss diminutive: CeroX: miss diminutive: This hurt my brain.

wifey and i want to get banned from there just so our parents will stop asking us to go...

But yeah... abortions, nazis, homosexuals, and animals attacking people, all in a world without god... which, coincidentally, is the world we live in!

Which implies that they've gone more than once. How many new exhibits can there possibly be?

"Come see the wonders of the Great Flood as seen from the eyes of the drowning disbelievers! See the Zipporah exhibit and use our virtual reality foreskin slicer to save Moses from God's wrath!"


oh yeah, like i said, they get yearly passes to the place... it makes have a sad because I went to the same school as my mother, and they do teach biology and evolution there... and i had many of the same teacher that she had when she was there (small town, solid teachers union, etc etc etc...) so it's not like she grew up in the deep south or anything, and my dad is college educated and from farther north in ohio than my mother... but there they are, enthralled by the place...


Let me say this about the article so i'm not completely hijacking here:

If this private school wasn't an accredited school for basic education as required by federal law, meaning, if it was an extracurricular school (like Sylvan) then i wouldn't have an issue with this, but I do because our children's education should not be compromised with drivel. There needs to be a standard that all schools who wish to be considered for credited basic education as required by the government should be required to follow which should be modeled around leading the way in education materials, methods, and subjects, and prepares future generations for global competition. Instead, we have to contend with this garbage and the infiltration of theology for what? More followers? More "believers"? Why are the minority extremists dictating this country's education direction? How did we get to this point? Who let this happen? You can't say it's from the mega-corps, the degradation of an entire population's education CAN'T be sustainable as a business model unless you plan on cutting and running...
2013-04-26 06:25:51 AM
1 votes:

iheartscotch: FAKE! I went to a catholic school; even there they fit evolution to genesis. It wasn't six calendar days, no, it was six metaphorical days that stretched back from the moment god created the earth, till he created man.

/ but, then again, that was right around the time that rocks were invented


I attended those very same classes.  They were a bit fuzzy about whether or not evolution was real, but what they did say, definitively, was that everything that exists today was created by God and everything those things can do was intended by God.  That could encompass "ability to evolve".

I sound fat: Spiralmonkey: That is too scary to be snarky about.

No, no it isnt, watch:

Both theories are equally theories.  Done.  That was pretty simple.

/ just cause YOUR religion wears white coats when they conjecture about "facts".....


Well THERE'S your problem.  You think theory means "unsure".  The actual definition of a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment".  Thus when we say the theory of Evolution we are actually talking about a well-documented aspect of the natural world that has evidence backing it up.  Lots and lots of evidence.

Also, you're mistakenly elevating Creationism to the level of a theory.  Creationism is, at best, unsubstantiated guesswork.

Shadowtag: The second part of that, if true, is upsetting even with it being a private school. Teaching your students to be that disrespectful to your parents doesn't sound particularly Christian and I can't imagine even a strict whackoo private school enjoying the PR fallout.


Any pissed off parents will be met with a thorough shaming.  That's how all religious institutions respond when someone calls them out for doing something bad.

We taught your kid to give a disrespectful, snippy answer to you?  You should be ashamed for having to be corrected by a 10-year-old.

We spent 85% of the money you donated on "administrative fees"?  Shame on you for even thinking those administrative costs aren't the best thing to spend that money on.

Your son got molested by your local parish priest?  Well if you weren't such a shiatty, oblivious parent you would have noticed the warning signs and kept your child away from him.

kazikian: I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?


Like I alluded to above, this is basically what my religious school taught me.  Well, the first one.  The second one was insane.  Regardless, it's a nice idea.  If I'm going to believe in a God, I'd like it to be one who is that clever.

Ranger Rover: Ranger Rover: Steak_Cake_Sause: As a compromise, it would relegate religion to the ever shrinking 'God of the Gaps.'

Have not heard this before, but it sounds interesting. What does it mean?

In case you feel the temptation to send me a "let me google that for you" meme, I will google it myself. But interested in your take on it.

Okay, did. And glad I did. This is exactly why I justify "time-wasting" on fark - I usually learn a thing or two.

Very good argument. And I think some sort of anticipation of it is why I tried to qualify my statement with the fact that doctrinally this compromise would be impracticable in many cases. But is kazikian's statement really necessitating a "God of the Gaps" argument, or could it maybe be a more God IN the Gaps argument? Am I just stupidly playing around with prepositions, or does that make any kind of sense?


No no, it makes sense.  A faith in God and acceptance of Evolution can be distinctly more than just "God of the Gaps" if you believe that whatever God meant to produce in the end, what he actually created was the first building blocks of life that then went on to evolve over millions of years to become us. "God of the Gaps" only comes in if you insist on attributing everything scientifically unexplainable to a deity or supernatural event, rather than "science we can't explain yet."

Frankly, I like to think of God as a sort of brilliant scientist running an experiment.  Put some primordial ooze on a planet (or several) in a universe, watch and see what happens.  Bonus, leave behind the ability to observe and interact with the universe on a fundamental level and see how long it takes life to figure it all out.  Maybe step in once or twice if the experiment isn't going to your liking.
2013-04-26 06:02:40 AM
1 votes:

CeroX: Seriously, they have a room labeled "The world without God", which features various displays like a newspaper that headlines "Children attacked by packs of wolves" and a video clip of a mother telling her 12 year old to get an abortion, Another newspaper article that reads "Homosexuals recruiting children" and a bunch of other stupid nonsense...


This hurt my brain.
2013-04-26 05:54:19 AM
1 votes:

Steak_Cake_Sause: So to me the best anyone can say is 'we dont know.' But that doesnt imply a creator, especially one as specific as the God of Abraham. Thats why I'm an atheist.


Well said (the whole comment, not just what I'm quoting here). I think that's the heart of it, and we just take different routes to get at the same essence. I am an agnostic. I don't know anything, and that's what (I hope) separates me from the religious nutjobs who think they do and want to prescribe/proscribe the actions of everyone else based on that. Can't remember the last time I was on the phone with God and he told me what exactly he wanted, or how I should make the life of anyone who disagreed a living hell. Hell, maybe there are seven-two virgins waiting for the 9/11 bombers. Or maybe we do just all return to the earth and become compost. I don't know, and I don't aim to act like I know and regulate the actions of other people on the basis of it.

/Glad to talk with an atheist who seems to understand agnosticism.
2013-04-26 05:48:26 AM
1 votes:

Ranger Rover: 3) Going about reconciling these basic objectives is going to be difficult. It just is. There's no wishing this away. The best, maybe the only, way this can be achieved, is by both sides being willing to afford some sort of compromise; at the least being willing to hear each other out. It is no less a tragedy that certain citizens want to teach their children (especially in a private school setting, no less) that God made the world than it is that other citizens want to force them to teach their children that God did not. If it is an invasion of privacy when religious values are mandated in personal choices, it is no less an invasion of privacy when the absence of religious values are mandated in personal choices.


Who's religious tenets do we teach in public schools? The only fair answer, the only answer that does not violate the Constitution, the only answer that does not tell believers in religion X that, "no, those guys over in religion Y are correct, you're going to hell, sorry" is to stick to secular facts and theories. If people want to teach their kids that Raven freed humans from the great clams, they can do it at home.
2013-04-26 05:14:44 AM
1 votes:

mikefinch: They think the bible is without flaw


They think the King James version of bible is without flaw. I can't, for the life of me, understand how they come to this conclusion. Seriously, how can anyone who knows the history of how the bible came to be, believe that any version is the infallible truth?
2013-04-26 05:06:24 AM
1 votes:

Ranger Rover: Ranger Rover: Steak_Cake_Sause: As a compromise, it would relegate religion to the ever shrinking 'God of the Gaps.'

Have not heard this before, but it sounds interesting. What does it mean?

In case you feel the temptation to send me a "let me google that for you" meme, I will google it myself. But interested in your take on it.

Okay, did. And glad I did. This is exactly why I justify "time-wasting" on fark - I usually learn a thing or two.

Very good argument. And I think some sort of anticipation of it is why I tried to qualify my statement with the fact that doctrinally this compromise would be impracticable in many cases. But is kazikian's statement really necessitating a "God of the Gaps" argument, or could it maybe be a more God IN the Gaps argument? Am I just stupidly playing around with prepositions, or does that make any kind of sense?


kazikian: I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?


(Hope i dont fark up the quoting here)

I think you are playing with prepositions. But I see what you mean.

This may be the ultimate gap. This is where science and religion (to me in my understanding) have pushed each other.

Science hasnt settled on the "Theory of Everything" yet. Last I read they can calculate everything back to less than a small fraction of a second after the big bang. There are a lot of unresolved issues, like are the laws of the universe contingent on themselves or are there a huge number of universes with varying laws, etc. (I cant go any further with this, I'm a geologist, not a theoretical physicist).

Religion.... err... Christianity accepting of science would say that the universe, big bang and all the laws, evolution, etc are caused by God. And God is eternal; without beginning or end.

To me, both are lacking. God requires explanation beyond 'hes just there.' And of coarse that means the Big Bang requires explanation beyond 'it just happened.'

So to me the best anyone can say is 'we dont know.' But that doesnt imply a creator, especially one as specific as the God of Abraham.  Thats why I'm an atheist.
2013-04-26 05:02:29 AM
1 votes:
America, your dumb fundamentalists are making the dumb fundamentalists of those countries you hate look good by comparison

/what I'm saying is your dumb religious nuts are making the dumb religious nuts elsewhere look better
2013-04-26 04:59:33 AM
1 votes:

Strolpol: I think the thing that hits me most is the "were you there" refutation, which would single-handedly nullify most of history.

Seriously though, I would tell them that I would much rather dinosaurs have lived millions of years ago rather than having to accept that God planted millions of fossils with the express purpose of trying to dick with scientists and test the true faith of believers.

/I mean really, do you WANT your deity to have the mentality of a psychotic child?


Is that better or worse than believing that your deity got really pissy one day and decided to drown the ENTIRE world and then tries to make up for it by giving us rainbows as a token phenomenon promising to not do it again? I mean just from a theological standpoint, God is perfect and supposedly we were made in his image, meaning we are all little Gods just without the powers, but we manage to fark up badly enough to warrant global genocide. If that act was okay for him to perform, and we are all little hims, why wasn't whatever we were doing okay too?  If he couldn't just make us so that we weren't so wicked in the first place, because we all had to be little [powerless] gods, what does that say about him? And if our wickedness exists because it's a part of him too (which the mass execution indicates) then why is he so pissed at us? What did he expect?  How shiatty is it to hold us to a level of accountability that he can't even live up to even with his ability to know everything always, everywhere, forever.
2013-04-26 04:52:23 AM
1 votes:

I sound fat: Both theories are equally theories. Done. That was pretty simple.


I really hope you're trolling, but there's a HUGE difference between a scientific theory like evolution, and a "I have a theory that Jebus created everything in 6 days" theory.
 http://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-defini tio n-of-theory.html
2013-04-26 04:38:44 AM
1 votes:

Ranger Rover: Steak_Cake_Sause: As a compromise, it would relegate religion to the ever shrinking 'God of the Gaps.'

Have not heard this before, but it sounds interesting. What does it mean?

In case you feel the temptation to send me a "let me google that for you" meme, I will google it myself. But interested in your take on it.


God of the Gaps? It means that god exists where science is lacking. If science doesnt understand something, then god did it.

NOMA basically means religion describes one area of reality and science describes another. So as science progresses, the gaps where god exists grows smaller.

/ I'm amazed this hasnt devolved to the typical Fark thread yet. Must be the late hour.
2013-04-26 04:37:50 AM
1 votes:

kxs401: violentsalvation: I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.

I know a nuclear engineer (by training, not by profession any longer) who believes this crap. He's a religious nutball, of course. He was posting on Facebook about how it's likely that God put fossils on the Earth for his own purposes, or something. Oy.


When you have to say the entire universe is a lie created by your God to protect the absolute truth of a book, you have to wonder about who would worship such a god of lies and deceit.
2013-04-26 04:31:10 AM
1 votes:

Ed Grubermann: Gordon Bennett:  so let's take the evangelical christian view as given, at least the core of it and forgive my jewish arse for getting a detail wrong -

Chrsitians have no farking idea how their theology works due to it being a religion by committee. A camel of a faith, you might say. Things were so bad that the Catholic Church invented Limbo for all those unbaptized babies to keep the distraught mothers from telling the Pope to go fark himself. They've tried bolting on other exceptions, such as the Noble Savage idea that people who never heard The Word could not be condemned as they had not refused salvation.

The thing is, until recently, you didn't question the leaders of your church under pain of excommunication or death. Now that religions have been castrated and muzzled in the west, people can question their church leaders and the accumulated cruft of thousands of years of "because I said so!!!!" is breaking the camel's poor back.


Why do people always want to pin this bullshiat on the Catholics? While they (like all other religions) have created some pretty dubious doctrine to shore up theological conflicts in their religion, they're not the ones running around the globe teaching young earth creationism bullshiat theory or in general crapping all over science. Quite the opposite actually - I went to a catholic school (Jesuit) growing up and was taught evolutionary theory and told in no uncertain terms that it was true and that it didn't conflict with a belief in God.

While I generally take a dim view of all organized religion, let's be honest here - the real problem is the evangelical/fundamentalist Christian sects in the US. They are pants on head retarded.

Trust me, there are plenty of things to shake your fists at the Catholics for - but supporting the theory that Jesus rode a dinosaur is not one of them.
2013-04-26 04:11:53 AM
1 votes:

Death Eats a Cracker: kazikian: I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?

Just stop.


Why? This seems like a completely reasonable worldview. That leads to the ability to teach kids basic scientific principles while adhering to the glory of the creator, whatever that may mean to individual people. Really, at this point, what better could you ask for? That we stomp out freedom of religion altogether? I think kazikian's statement gets to the heart of the best of all compromises, (although doctrine means it may not bear out in all individual cases) - that science is taught in the science classroom and religion in the religion classroom (or church). Let smart kids draw their own conclusions - they will.
2013-04-26 04:06:09 AM
1 votes:
Gordon Bennett:  so let's take the evangelical christian view as given, at least the core of it and forgive my jewish arse for getting a detail wrong -

Chrsitians have no farking idea how their theology works due to it being a religion by committee. A camel of a faith, you might say. Things were so bad that the Catholic Church invented Limbo for all those unbaptized babies to keep the distraught mothers from telling the Pope to go fark himself. They've tried bolting on other exceptions, such as the Noble Savage idea that people who never heard The Word could not be condemned as they had not refused salvation.

The thing is, until recently, you didn't question the leaders of your church under pain of excommunication or death. Now that religions have been castrated and muzzled in the west, people can question their church leaders and the accumulated cruft of thousands of years of "because I said so!!!!" is breaking the camel's poor back.
2013-04-26 04:02:19 AM
1 votes:

kazikian: I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?


Just stop.
2013-04-26 03:53:51 AM
1 votes:

I sound fat: Spiralmonkey: That is too scary to be snarky about.

/ just cause YOUR religion wears white coats when they conjecture about "facts".....


THIS is interesting. I have a feeling you're going to get jumped on here about this, but getting in real quick to say that I think you do have something of a point. Federal food legislation, for example, based on bad science, has resulted in dozens if not hundreds of restrictive laws and contributed directly to our country's obesity problem. When someone pointed out to me a month or two ago that science is the equivalent of a secular altar at which this country's academic elite worship, I initially reacted with something along the lines of, "okay, crazy." But it gave me pause, because although not a good analogy in all respects, there is definitely a tendency of some to just go, "Science, science, science, I can't hear you," the same way that the other side goes, "God, God, God, I can't hear you." Something to think about, at least for me.

The biggest difference, though, is that science is dynamic and tends to reverse itself in the face of irrefutable proof, whereas religious beliefs are static - based on incontrovertible truths - and don't. What would you say to that?
2013-04-26 03:53:35 AM
1 votes:

Gordon Bennett: Awright farkers, please forgive me for mistakes in this post but i'm getting a migraine and am half-blind from the aura at the moment. but this has seriously bugged me for a long time and i've never received a good answer.

so let's take the evangelical christian view as given, at least the core of it and forgive my jewish arse for getting a detail wrong -


This isn't the picture I was going for, but the caption is similar. (for some strange reason a GIS pulls up a bunch of watches for the quote. Damn you Dawkins)

i.imgur.com
2013-04-26 03:53:19 AM
1 votes:

mephox: Better yet, ask them to point to the exact passage in the bible that says the earth was created on such and such date. They can't because its not there. As with so many things in religion it's open to interpretation. Man is flawed, so sayeth the bible, so isn't it more likely that the 6000 years interpretation is also flawed? The date of the earth 'controversy' has an interesting history and any knowledge junkies would love to read it I'm sure.


They think the bible is without flaw
They think that with prayer and honest intentions god sends divine guidance in matters relating to interpreting the bible.
They know jesus lived 2000 years ago and the bible has a bunch of genealogies relating him back to the line of david and the line of david back to adam and eve. They use all the info about how many generations there were and how long each poor bastard lived to count back to the rough date of the 'fall of man'
They came up with about 6000 years since adam and eve got tossed.
If you suggest anything to the contrary you have been 'led astray' and should read your bible and pray more.

The bible says men are flawed but they suggest the bible was divinely protected. Trying to get a fundie christian to admit the bible has some sort of cultural influence rather than all being entirely divinely inspired is like pulling teeth.
2013-04-26 03:50:28 AM
1 votes:
I can never understand why anyone would think evolution is incompatible with religion. God could very well have created creatures that are able to evolve to better suit their needs as time passes and things change. If anything that would seem to add to the glory of God; I mean, not only is He able to create life, but He creates life that continues to function and adapt independently of further supernatural meddling. How cool is that, right?
2013-04-26 03:48:41 AM
1 votes:
Wow. Some people really do want their children to grow up to be complete idiots.
2013-04-26 03:33:20 AM
1 votes:

Steak_Cake_Sause: Shadow Blasko: violentsalvation: I've known grown adults who believe that young earth / dinosaur shiat. They were otherwise educated, one I would go so far as to say he is brilliant, but he believes this shiat. I don't farking understand it.

I've got a family member like that. He's super smart, computer programmer... he's forgotten more about old hardware than I will ever know. He's a super nice guy, but yeah... young earth creationist. I can't figure it out.

/really thinks fossils were put on earth to test our faith.

[controversy.wearscience.com image 300x300]


I bet answersingenesis would sell that down at the Creation Museum*.

/for $80 a shirt...
2013-04-26 03:23:18 AM
1 votes:

GungFu: Dummy: God created the earth 6 thousand years ago.

Me: Were you there?


Better yet, ask them to point to the exact passage in the bible that says the earth was created on such and such date. They can't because its not there. As with so many things in religion it's open to interpretation. Man is flawed, so sayeth the bible, so isn't it more likely that the 6000 years interpretation is also flawed? The date of the earth 'controversy' has an interesting history and any knowledge junkies would love to read it I'm sure.

On my phone ATM so hard to look up but it's out there I promise you.

Use their own arguments against them. Most of these people claim to believe in an exact, literal interpretation of the bible so at the very least sputter and backtracking and "but, but" loops will provide some entertainment.
2013-04-26 03:22:24 AM
1 votes:

SpdrJay: Get over it.

The Constitution is just a piece of paper after all....


And the 2nd Amendment is the only sacrosanct part
2013-04-26 03:19:27 AM
1 votes:
Gotta love the fundies.  They're so desperate to make sure they're relevant in today's world, that they're more than happy to sacrifice your child's ability to compete in the global workforce.  They don't care if it lowers their quality of living... poor undereducated people are what they want, after all.  Your kids suffer, the church gets more pennies in the pie tin.   And these people are the same ones who think they're in any position to dictate morality!  It's a farce, but a sickening farce.
2013-04-26 03:19:18 AM
1 votes:

impaler: iheartscotch: FAKE! I went to a catholic school; even there they fit evolution to genesis. It wasn't six calendar days, no, it was six metaphorical days that stretched back from the moment god created the earth, till he created man.

/ but, then again, that was right around the time that rocks were invented

I went to a Catholic school too. Baptists are no Catholics.

Seriously, if the US was Catholic, this BS wouldn't exist. If anything, the bible explicitly describes bio-genesis and evolution (man was formed from clay). But we aren't talking about churches that have had power through a massive hierarchy through centuries. We're talking about churches where the most literate out of a few hundred nearly illiterates was king. The shat they came up with 200 years ago is still haunting us today.


Yeah, we'd have a hole different mess of BS to deal with.

AIDS and contraception come to mind.
2013-04-26 03:00:50 AM
1 votes:

EvilPun: grimlock1972: Sadly its this kind of crap why we need federal oversight of education curriculum.

It's a private school so no, they could teach Hitler and Buddah had a gay sex orgy in Guam if they wanted to.


Huh, count me in as one of those crazy people that thought there was some standards in education. Weird I know.
2013-04-26 02:45:17 AM
1 votes:
FAKE! I went to a catholic school; even there they fit evolution to genesis. It wasn't six calendar days, no, it was six metaphorical days that stretched back from the moment god created the earth, till he created man.

/ but, then again, that was right around the time that rocks were invented
2013-04-26 02:24:25 AM
1 votes:
Did not read article or thread, but sometimes I think extra-religious people underestimate their God.
2013-04-26 02:22:34 AM
1 votes:
farm4.staticflickr.com
i.qkme.me
2013-04-26 12:35:41 AM
1 votes:

impaler: We need more STEM, yet we get this shat.


Sorry, here's the article:   http://www.epi.org/publication/bp359-guestworkers-high-skill-labor-ma r ket-analysis/
2013-04-26 12:14:48 AM
1 votes:
"Probably true"
On top of that, it's from reddit.
 
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