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(BBC)   Spain reaches record high unemployment. If this keeps up for a few more decades, you may finally be able to afford a one week trip to Europe   (bbc.co.uk ) divider line 34
    More: Sad, Spain, Francisco Franco, transition to democracy  
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1158 clicks; posted to Business » on 25 Apr 2013 at 9:34 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-25 09:42:41 AM  
In before everyone claiming this has some sort of relevancy to the USA, or that it can be used as a comp to our own economics.
 
2013-04-25 09:45:48 AM  
How's that austerity workin' out for ya, Spain?
 
2013-04-25 09:46:47 AM  

Generation_D: In before everyone claiming this has some sort of relevancy to the USA, or that it can be used as a comp to our own economics.


Also in before words to the effect of "0bama seen furiously taking notes".
 
2013-04-25 10:03:55 AM  

MithrandirBooga: How's that austerity workin' out for ya, Spain?


Did Spain actually reduce spending?
 
2013-04-25 10:27:06 AM  
How's the weak central government, unlimited states rights, and central bank that refuses to print money working out for ya, Europe?
 
2013-04-25 10:29:23 AM  

YixilTesiphon: MithrandirBooga: How's that austerity workin' out for ya, Spain?

Did Spain actually reduce spending?


Wikipedia says yes:

"Spain entered the crisis period with a relatively modest public debt of 36.2% of GDP. This was largely due to ballooning tax revenue from the housing bubble, which helped accommodate a decade of increased government spending without debt accumulation. In response to the crisis, Spain initiated an austerity program consisting primarily of tax increases. PM Rajoy announced (11 July 2012) €65 billion of austerity including cuts in wages and benefits and a VAT increase from 18% to 21%. The government eventually succeeded to reduce its budget deficit from 11.2% of GDP in 2009 to 8.5% in 2011 and it is expected to fall further to 5.4% in 2012."
 
2013-04-25 10:44:58 AM  
no sex and no job makes spaniards something something
 
2013-04-25 11:20:23 AM  
Maybe the Euro wasn't such a hot idea after all, hmm?
 
2013-04-25 11:36:03 AM  

Ham Sandvich: YixilTesiphon: MithrandirBooga: How's that austerity workin' out for ya, Spain?

Did Spain actually reduce spending?

Wikipedia says yes:

"Spain entered the crisis period with a relatively modest public debt of 36.2% of GDP. This was largely due to ballooning tax revenue from the housing bubble, which helped accommodate a decade of increased government spending without debt accumulation. In response to the crisis, Spain initiated an austerity program consisting primarily of tax increases. PM Rajoy announced (11 July 2012) €65 billion of austerity including cuts in wages and benefits and a VAT increase from 18% to 21%. The government eventually succeeded to reduce its budget deficit from 11.2% of GDP in 2009 to 8.5% in 2011 and it is expected to fall further to 5.4% in 2012."


That doesn't say the government spent less money in 2011 than in 2010.
 
2013-04-25 11:44:37 AM  

YixilTesiphon: Ham Sandvich: YixilTesiphon: MithrandirBooga: How's that austerity workin' out for ya, Spain?

Did Spain actually reduce spending?

Wikipedia says yes:

"Spain entered the crisis period with a relatively modest public debt of 36.2% of GDP. This was largely due to ballooning tax revenue from the housing bubble, which helped accommodate a decade of increased government spending without debt accumulation. In response to the crisis, Spain initiated an austerity program consisting primarily of tax increases. PM Rajoy announced (11 July 2012) €65 billion of austerity including cuts in wages and benefits and a VAT increase from 18% to 21%. The government eventually succeeded to reduce its budget deficit from 11.2% of GDP in 2009 to 8.5% in 2011 and it is expected to fall further to 5.4% in 2012."

That doesn't say the government spent less money in 2011 than in 2010.


Spain budget imposed further austerity measures
 
2013-04-25 12:01:42 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Maybe the Euro wasn't such a hot idea after all, hmm?


Beats having Germany try to take over the continent.

Which was pretty much the plan prior to creating the Euro.
 
2013-04-25 12:03:09 PM  
Hopefully the people of Spain can put a popular government into power that will support and champion the working class.  I mean what could possibly go wrong if they did something like that?

t0.gstatic.com

Oh yeah.... that.
 
2013-04-25 12:06:18 PM  

Generation_D: JohnAnnArbor: Maybe the Euro wasn't such a hot idea after all, hmm?

Beats having Germany try to take over the continent.

Which was pretty much the plan prior to creating the Euro.


Huh?  Seems like that's MORE likely with the euro.
 
2013-04-25 12:39:12 PM  

YixilTesiphon: Ham Sandvich: YixilTesiphon: MithrandirBooga: How's that austerity workin' out for ya, Spain?

Did Spain actually reduce spending?

Wikipedia says yes:

"Spain entered the crisis period with a relatively modest public debt of 36.2% of GDP. This was largely due to ballooning tax revenue from the housing bubble, which helped accommodate a decade of increased government spending without debt accumulation. In response to the crisis, Spain initiated an austerity program consisting primarily of tax increases. PM Rajoy announced (11 July 2012) €65 billion of austerity including cuts in wages and benefits and a VAT increase from 18% to 21%. The government eventually succeeded to reduce its budget deficit from 11.2% of GDP in 2009 to 8.5% in 2011 and it is expected to fall further to 5.4% in 2012."

That doesn't say the government spent less money in 2011 than in 2010.


www.tradingeconomics.com
 
2013-04-25 12:40:26 PM  

MithrandirBooga: How's that austerity workin' out for ya, Spain?


When you inflate the size of government based on debt and bubble-funded tax revenues, then go into massive debt to the point you may default, and then you raise taxes, and then you 'cut' spending (really spending is kinda flat), you can't say your problems are caused by austerity.

If I ran up $100,000 in credit card debt, and then tried to live within my means, I can't blame all of my problems on the fact I'm not spending enough money.
 
2013-04-25 01:15:19 PM  

MugzyBrown: If I ran up $100,000 in credit card debt, and then tried to live within my means, I can't blame all of my problems on the fact I'm not spending enough money.


You also can't compare the economics of an entire country to your own individual household.
 
2013-04-25 01:19:58 PM  

Pincy: You also can't compare the economics of an entire country to your own individual household.


You can if you use coconuts.
 
2013-04-25 01:23:52 PM  

Pincy: MugzyBrown: If I ran up $100,000 in credit card debt, and then tried to live within my means, I can't blame all of my problems on the fact I'm not spending enough money.

You also can't compare the economics of an entire country to your own individual household.


Not for all analogies.  But this one holds up.  Spain build MASSIVE public-works projects in the last decade on a credit-fueled spending binge.  Now the bill is due, and the things they built like commercial airports stand empty.
 
2013-04-25 01:28:41 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Pincy: MugzyBrown: If I ran up $100,000 in credit card debt, and then tried to live within my means, I can't blame all of my problems on the fact I'm not spending enough money.

You also can't compare the economics of an entire country to your own individual household.

Not for all analogies.  But this one holds up.  Spain build MASSIVE public-works projects in the last decade on a credit-fueled spending binge.  Now the bill is due, and the things they built like commercial airports stand empty.


That would be solved if they just built more airports. The spending would stimulate the economy, and think of all the airports they'd have!
 
2013-04-25 01:58:48 PM  

Pincy: MugzyBrown: If I ran up $100,000 in credit card debt, and then tried to live within my means, I can't blame all of my problems on the fact I'm not spending enough money.

You also can't compare the economics of an entire country to your own individual household.


Keynesian philosophy may be able to bridge a gap in a brief economic slowdown if everything before that time was done properly (balanced budgets, low Gov't/GDP ratio, etc).  But when the gov't has been red lining spending for years and the debt and deficit is already through the roof, spending at an even higher pace isn't going to solve anything... especially if nobody is going to lend you more money.
 
2013-04-25 02:38:48 PM  
27% unemployment, isn't that USA Great Depression type numbers?
 
2013-04-25 02:54:59 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: But this one holds up.


It never holds up. National economies != household budgets.

Besides that, Spain was using high property tax revenue to maintain and reduce their debt whilst public spending. It all would have worked out much better if not for a bunch of shady banksters.

More countries need to follow Iceland's example.
 
2013-04-25 03:10:41 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: JohnAnnArbor: But this one holds up.

It never holds up. National economies != household budgets.

Besides that, Spain was using high property tax revenue to maintain and reduce their debt whilst public spending. It all would have worked out much better if not for a bunch of shady banksters.

More countries need to follow Iceland's example.


And not be in the euro?  That allows them to control their own destiny.

The euro is a failure.  Without it, the debtor nations could have just devalued their currencies to get out of the debt trap.  That would both allow their economies to restart and serve as a warning to future lenders.  There's a reason the lira, the drachma, and (to a lesser extent) the peseta were joke currencies pre-euro.
 
2013-04-25 03:21:49 PM  
Read all about it.

"The euro led to negative interest rates of minus 2pc in Spain earlier in the decade, and set off an uncontrollable boom. The country now faces an uncontrollable bust. The elemental issue is loss of sovereign control over its exchange rate and monetary policy."
 
2013-04-25 03:46:30 PM  

Pincy: MugzyBrown: If I ran up $100,000 in credit card debt, and then tried to live within my means, I can't blame all of my problems on the fact I'm not spending enough money.

You also can't compare the economics of an entire country to your own individual household.


You can, it just lets everyone know you don't know what you are talking about.
 
2013-04-25 04:12:04 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: and set off an uncontrollable boom. The country now faces an uncontrollable bust.


Don't quite believe that. At least, not the uncontrollable part. That was the bankers. Whatever the method, however, telling them to go fark themselves is the only solution, or you'll be indebted to them forever.
 
2013-04-25 05:02:28 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: JohnAnnArbor: and set off an uncontrollable boom. The country now faces an uncontrollable bust.

Don't quite believe that. At least, not the uncontrollable part. That was the bankers. Whatever the method, however, telling them to go fark themselves is the only solution, or you'll be indebted to them forever.


What the fark are you talking about? Are you arguing that Spain should just default on its debt? Or that they should let their banks go bust?

Think about who would get farked if you did.
 
2013-04-25 05:51:03 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Think about who would get farked if you did.


Everyone gets farked, especially the banks.

This is a much better alternative to the banks farking everyone else and getting paid for the privilege.
 
2013-04-25 06:39:26 PM  

MithrandirBooga: How's that austerity workin' out for ya, Spain?


Seems to be working fine.

You do realise what the point of the austerity measures were? No you don't, and who cares.
 
2013-04-25 06:42:48 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: JohnAnnArbor: Pincy: MugzyBrown: If I ran up $100,000 in credit card debt, and then tried to live within my means, I can't blame all of my problems on the fact I'm not spending enough money.

You also can't compare the economics of an entire country to your own individual household.

Not for all analogies.  But this one holds up.  Spain build MASSIVE public-works projects in the last decade on a credit-fueled spending binge.  Now the bill is due, and the things they built like commercial airports stand empty.

That would be solved if they just built more airports. The spending would stimulate the economy, and think of all the airports they'd have!


Yeah, but why airports.

If they're spending just to spend (like airports would be), why not build a few hundred thousand of those Easter-Islands statues.

Then 1000 years from now, people would wonder why the fark the place if full of statues, and if they used all their resources to build them thus collapsing their society.
 
2013-04-25 06:44:38 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Sergeant Grumbles: JohnAnnArbor: But this one holds up.

It never holds up. National economies != household budgets.

Besides that, Spain was using high property tax revenue to maintain and reduce their debt whilst public spending. It all would have worked out much better if not for a bunch of shady banksters.

More countries need to follow Iceland's example.

And not be in the euro?  That allows them to control their own destiny.

The euro is a failure.  Without it, the debtor nations could have just devalued their currencies to get out of the debt trap.  That would both allow their economies to restart and serve as a warning to future lenders.  There's a reason the lira, the drachma, and (to a lesser extent) the peseta were joke currencies pre-euro.


Or you know, they could just not have borrowed all that money.
 
2013-04-25 08:08:33 PM  
"A nickel! I'm buying my own hotel!"
 
2013-04-26 06:56:56 AM  

spawn73: Debeo Summa Credo: JohnAnnArbor: Pincy: MugzyBrown: If I ran up $100,000 in credit card debt, and then tried to live within my means, I can't blame all of my problems on the fact I'm not spending enough money.

You also can't compare the economics of an entire country to your own individual household.

Not for all analogies.  But this one holds up.  Spain build MASSIVE public-works projects in the last decade on a credit-fueled spending binge.  Now the bill is due, and the things they built like commercial airports stand empty.

That would be solved if they just built more airports. The spending would stimulate the economy, and think of all the airports they'd have!

Yeah, but why airports.

If they're spending just to spend (like airports would be), why not build a few hundred thousand of those Easter-Islands statues.

Then 1000 years from now, people would wonder why the fark the place if full of statues, and if they used all their resources to build them thus collapsing their society.


Yeah, that's my point. Pointless spending is detrimental.
 
2013-04-26 06:59:34 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Debeo Summa Credo: Think about who would get farked if you did.

Everyone gets farked, especially the banks.

This is a much better alternative to the banks farking everyone else and getting paid for the privilege.


Not if "everybody" gets farked much much harder that they otherwise would be. If Spain let its banks fail or defaulted on its debt, all of Spain would be worse off.
 
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