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(Space.com)   Mankind may not be able to get to the moon anymore, but we can still restore historic space shuttle Galileo (slideshow)   (space.com) divider line 197
    More: Spiffy, treks, original  
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2793 clicks; posted to Geek » on 24 Apr 2013 at 2:28 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-24 12:07:32 AM  
Before the restoration work began I would have taken it out to Slanted Rock and taken a photo so it looks like an old crashed wreck.
 
2013-04-24 12:51:42 AM  
If by "Mankind" you mean "Americans" yes.
 
2013-04-24 12:53:59 AM  

optikeye: If by "Mankind" you mean "Americans" yes.


Does anyone else have a landing module capable of putting people on the moon and getting them back off of it?  Building the big ass rocket to take them up seems like the easy part, actually setting them down safely and having them be able to leave when they're ready to is more difficult.
 
2013-04-24 12:54:48 AM  

optikeye: If by "Mankind" you mean "Americans" yes.


Anybody else been there lately? Anybody else been there ever?
 
2013-04-24 01:13:50 AM  
I predict 6 poasts before p00p thread.

/For reference, clicky HERE
 
2013-04-24 01:32:09 AM  
We can go back to the moon any time we damn well please.

Its just that the political will is non-existent.
 
2013-04-24 02:10:04 AM  
I have a plan to get people to the moon.  POW, right in the kisser.  Well, at least mouthy broads.
 
2013-04-24 03:02:03 AM  

cman: We can go back to the moon any time we damn well please.

Its just that the political will is non-existent.


And the money. That trip is expensive.
 
2013-04-24 03:06:49 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: optikeye: If by "Mankind" you mean "Americans" yes.

Does anyone else have a landing module capable of putting people on the moon and getting them back off of it?  Building the big ass rocket to take them up seems like the easy part, actually setting them down safely and having them be able to leave when they're ready to is more difficult.


Depends on what you consider to be easy. Relatively speaking, the moon has 1/6th the gravity of earth. It takes far less power to escape the Moon's gravity than it does to escape Earth's.

The Saturn V rocket was the only rocket ever produced that is powerful enough and can be considered reliable enough to take us out of Earth's gravity well. The Soviets had a rocket that was powerful enough on paper, but never successfully flew. The second launch had the rocket failing and coming back down upon the launch pad, which resulted in the largest conventional (non-nuclear) explosion ever made by man.

Leaving the moon sounds difficult, because it must be done so far away, but technically it's not really that demanding. Also, the outgoing trip must lift all of the fuel and supplies for the entire voyage, while the lunar return vehicle really only needs to lift the crew members plus a few other things. The return trip also doesn't need to worry about fighting atmospheric drag, and it only needs to rendezvous with the CSM (which due to the lack of atmosphere, could orbit the moon at only about 60 miles up). For comparison, the ISS orbits above 200miles.

They're just totally different orders of magnitude in terms of lift capacity that's necessary.
 
2013-04-24 03:18:00 AM  
Mr. Socko unavailable for comment
 
2013-04-24 03:19:04 AM  

cman: We can go back to the moon any time we damn well please.


We certainly have the technology and the understanding to go back to the moon, but a lot of the infrastructure and industrial processes that got us there have disintegrated. We'd have to design an entirely new heavy lift rocket (there would be no point to bring back the Saturn V), and then build a supply chain capable of producing what would undoubtedly be thousands upon thousands of custom pieces of hardware.

We'd have to send up a number of unmanned rockets first, just to demonstrate the space-worthiness of the system. Then we'd have to demonstrate and certify those rockets were safe to perform the maneuvers expected of them, which would mean more test flights. There would be a lot of work to do... probably 3-5 years of work, assuming that NASA got all the funding they'd ever want.
 
2013-04-24 04:23:01 AM  
Nice to see they're gonna get it shined back up again but boo for the damn slideshow.
//eeegh, it's late and it's not *actually* about spaceflight soooo, 35, maybe 40 posts?
 
2013-04-24 04:26:00 AM  

Ghastly: Before the restoration work began I would have taken it out to Slanted Rock and taken a photo so it looks like an old crashed wreck.


That would have been brilliant.
 
2013-04-24 04:29:08 AM  
if those Bigfoot monsters hadn't and banged it up with those big rocks so much it wouldn't need the repair!

Damn that Mr Spock and his Vulcan logic anyway!
 
2013-04-24 05:05:44 AM  

Confabulat: optikeye: If by "Mankind" you mean "Americans" yes.

Anybody else been there lately? Anybody else been there ever?


Plenty of stuff has gone there - India had that impactor not so long ago, and there are all the stuff that has been searching for water near the poles, etc. There is no real scientific reason to send people there again though, and hence no one has wasted billions of dollars sending someone there just for the prestige of doing so, it is not as if there is a lot in being the second (and subsequent) person on the moon anyway, and the supplies it requires would displace 1000 scientific experiments you could send for the same effort (and it is better to do such things iteratively with smaller rockets).
 
2013-04-24 05:45:27 AM  

optikeye: If by "Mankind" you mean "Americans" yes.


And by "can't" you mean "could easily enough, but have no particular reason to".

The problem isn't that manned flight is somehow impossible, it's that pretty much everything we want to do up there can be done remotely, and that's much cheaper.

This probably won't change until we start doing things like mining asteroids for metals or other stuff that requires some on-location oversight.

Fubini: cman: We can go back to the moon any time we damn well please.

We certainly have the technology and the understanding to go back to the moon, but a lot of the infrastructure and industrial processes that got us there have disintegrated. We'd have to design an entirely new heavy lift rocket (there would be no point to bring back the Saturn V), and then build a supply chain capable of producing what would undoubtedly be thousands upon thousands of custom pieces of hardware.

We'd have to send up a number of unmanned rockets first, just to demonstrate the space-worthiness of the system. Then we'd have to demonstrate and certify those rockets were safe to perform the maneuvers expected of them, which would mean more test flights. There would be a lot of work to do... probably 3-5 years of work, assuming that NASA got all the funding they'd ever want.


This is accurate enough.  To put it in perspective, that's about the amount of time and money it takes to take a single drug that you know works (in the scientific/medical sense) through clinical trials and into production.  In terms of what US industry does on a regular basis, not a big deal at all.

The problem, again, is that everything we want to do on the moon/mars/etc is easily achieved with a million-dollar robot with no risk to humans instead of a billion-dollar-plus manned mission with a bunch of extra stuff tacked on to keep an acceleration-intolerant, radiation-intolerant bag of redundant meat safe without adding any actual scientific or industrial value to the mission.
 
2013-04-24 05:55:11 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The problem, again, is that everything we want to do on the moon/mars/etc is easily achieved with a million-dollar robot with no risk to humans instead of a billion-dollar-plus manned mission with a bunch of extra stuff tacked on to keep an acceleration-intolerant, radiation-intolerant bag of redundant meat safe without adding any actual scientific or industrial value to the mission.


Except, of course, if we want to continue to have funding for missions of this type, people have to care. The Mars rovers have been amazing to watch over the years, but no one is going to get weepy-eyed over a rover's impassionate camera shot of some rock. When a human being actually lands on Mars, it will pretty much blow everyone's minds.

That's why it's worth a billion dollars to send up the meatbags.
 
2013-04-24 05:59:50 AM  

Ed Grubermann: cman: We can go back to the moon any time we damn well please.

Its just that the political will is non-existent.

And the money. That trip is expensive.


Hmmm.  Moon landing....5 more F-22 fighters.  No.  It's the political will not the cost.
 
2013-04-24 06:15:26 AM  

VvonderJesus: Mr. Socko unavailable for comment


God bless you sir. God bless you.
 
2013-04-24 06:29:43 AM  

AngryDragon: Ed Grubermann: cman: We can go back to the moon any time we damn well please.

Its just that the political will is non-existent.

And the money. That trip is expensive.

Hmmm.  Moon landing....5 more F-22 fighters.  No.  It's the political will not the cost.


See Fubini's post above. It's more than just the rocket itself.
 
2013-04-24 06:36:51 AM  

Fubini: We certainly have the technology and the understanding to go back to the moon, but a lot of the infrastructure and industrial processes that got us there have disintegrated. We'd have to design an entirely new heavy lift rocket (there would be no point to bring back the Saturn V), and then build a supply chain capable of producing what would undoubtedly be thousands upon thousands of custom pieces of hardware.


Actually I think the plan pretty much IS to re-create the Saturn V - obviously not with identical parts but the designs and specs would be very similar.  Ars (and thus Fark) had a great story on one teams mission to bring those massive F-1 engines up to current manufacturing and tech levels but would basically keep the core engineering principles used in place.

Here  http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/04/new-f-1b-rocket-engine-upgrade s -apollo-era-deisgn-with-1-8m-lbs-of-thrust/ is how the old and new design compare.  And this  http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/04/how-nasa-brought-the-monstrous - f-1-moon-rocket-back-to-life/ is the story how they did it.  Both good reads.
 
2013-04-24 07:17:00 AM  

Confabulat: optikeye: If by "Mankind" you mean "Americans" yes.

Anybody else been there lately? Anybody else been there ever?


If machines are good enough for you, the Russians did. If machines aren't good enough, then Americans never went to Mars, either.
 
2013-04-24 07:20:57 AM  

AngryDragon: Hmmm. Moon landing....5 more F-22 fighters. No. It's the political will not the cost.


Hmm, Moon landing, political stunt that's over in a week with nothing to show for it after. 5 F-22s, tons of government welfare jobs to spread around for decades.
 
2013-04-24 07:24:53 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: If machines aren't good enough, then Americans never went to Mars, either.


No one has ever been to Mars, dumbass. You think you're so smart, but listen to the dipshiat noise that comes out of your typing fingers.
 
2013-04-24 07:32:16 AM  

Confabulat: Quantum Apostrophe: If machines aren't good enough, then Americans never went to Mars, either.

No one has ever been to Mars, dumbass. You think you're so smart, but listen to the dipshiat noise that comes out of your typing fingers.


Ah, semantics, the last refuge of the Space Nutter. I know, subtlety isn't your strong suit, but do try to keep up.
 
2013-04-24 07:33:46 AM  

Fubini: to take us out of Earth's gravity well.


Erm, what's holding the Moon there?
 
2013-04-24 07:35:35 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Confabulat: Quantum Apostrophe: If machines aren't good enough, then Americans never went to Mars, either.

No one has ever been to Mars, dumbass. You think you're so smart, but listen to the dipshiat noise that comes out of your typing fingers.

Ah, semantics, the last refuge of the Space Nutter. I know, subtlety isn't your strong suit, but do try to keep up.


God if you hate space exploration so much why are you in every space exploration thread? You call me a nutter? I call you a baby.
 
2013-04-24 07:36:58 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: AngryDragon: Hmmm. Moon landing....5 more F-22 fighters. No. It's the political will not the cost.

Hmm, Moon landing, political stunt that's over in a week with nothing to show for it after. 5 F-22s, tons of government welfare jobs to spread around for decades.


And besides, you gotta be pretty damn stupid to claim that 5 F-22s will result in "tons of government welfare jobs to spread around for decades."

My god man, just shut up.
 
2013-04-24 07:38:07 AM  
I hate stories about Wall Street. Curiously, you'll rarely find me in a thread about Wall Street. I wonder why that is.
 
2013-04-24 07:38:57 AM  

Confabulat: Quantum Apostrophe: Confabulat: Quantum Apostrophe: If machines aren't good enough, then Americans never went to Mars, either.

No one has ever been to Mars, dumbass. You think you're so smart, but listen to the dipshiat noise that comes out of your typing fingers.

Ah, semantics, the last refuge of the Space Nutter. I know, subtlety isn't your strong suit, but do try to keep up.

God if you hate space exploration so much why are you in every space exploration thread? You call me a nutter? I call you a baby.


Wow, that's the best you can come up with? Really? I guess it's early yet. Tell you what, I'll give your tiny mental faculties a few hours to come up with something fiercer, and I'll check back with you. Deal?

Now go play with your rocket model kits and make wooshing noises.

/And I didn't realize a wooden model from a crappy TV show is "exploring space", but what to expect from a Space Nutter but drool?
/Here, let me help you "explore space": it's pretty much an empty vacuum in any direction
 
2013-04-24 07:39:54 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Confabulat: Quantum Apostrophe: Confabulat: Quantum Apostrophe: If machines aren't good enough, then Americans never went to Mars, either.

No one has ever been to Mars, dumbass. You think you're so smart, but listen to the dipshiat noise that comes out of your typing fingers.

Ah, semantics, the last refuge of the Space Nutter. I know, subtlety isn't your strong suit, but do try to keep up.

God if you hate space exploration so much why are you in every space exploration thread? You call me a nutter? I call you a baby.

Wow, that's the best you can come up with? Really? I guess it's early yet. Tell you what, I'll give your tiny mental faculties a few hours to come up with something fiercer, and I'll check back with you. Deal?

Now go play with your rocket model kits and make wooshing noises.

/And I didn't realize a wooden model from a crappy TV show is "exploring space", but what to expect from a Space Nutter but drool?
/Here, let me help you "explore space": it's pretty much an empty vacuum in any direction


How am I a "space nutter" exactly? Be specific in your answer.
 
2013-04-24 07:40:08 AM  

Confabulat: And besides, you gotta be pretty damn stupid to claim that 5 F-22s will result in "tons of government welfare jobs to spread around for decades."


Yes, they fly and maintain themselves, I forgot. They ship with their own 3D printers these days I guess.
 
2013-04-24 07:40:50 AM  
No go on, tell me about my "space nutter" tendencies.

Go on, then tell me about how five F-22s will provide decades of jobs.

Go on.

Remember.

BE SPECIFIC.
 
2013-04-24 07:41:27 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Confabulat: And besides, you gotta be pretty damn stupid to claim that 5 F-22s will result in "tons of government welfare jobs to spread around for decades."

Yes, they fly and maintain themselves, I forgot. They ship with their own 3D printers these days I guess.


So how is that different that a nice little rocket?
 
2013-04-24 07:42:04 AM  
Man, what a little baby.
 
2013-04-24 07:44:14 AM  
"I hate SPACE EXPLORATION! I am smart! Other people are all SPACE NUTTERS! I am smart! I hate space I hate space I hate space!"

did i get your argument down yet?
 
2013-04-24 07:44:53 AM  

Confabulat: Go on, then tell me about how five F-22s will provide decades of jobs.


The F-15 is four decades old. Who maintains them? Who flies them? Who upgrades them? Did they do it by themselves? Did they volunteer? Or are they part of an enormous socialist bureaucracy?

Does an F-15 fly for three days and is then jettisoned? Does an F-22? Does a F-22 never wear out, or fly itself, or never need upgrades?

How many hours of maintenance does a fighter jet need for every hour of flight?
 
2013-04-24 07:46:10 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Confabulat: Go on, then tell me about how five F-22s will provide decades of jobs.

The F-15 is four decades old. Who maintains them? Who flies them? Who upgrades them? Did they do it by themselves? Did they volunteer? Or are they part of an enormous socialist bureaucracy?

Does an F-15 fly for three days and is then jettisoned? Does an F-22? Does a F-22 never wear out, or fly itself, or never need upgrades?

How many hours of maintenance does a fighter jet need for every hour of flight?


So who builds the rockets?
 
2013-04-24 07:47:05 AM  
Just shut up, you whiny vagina. You embarrass smart people everywhere pretending to be one.
 
2013-04-24 07:47:20 AM  

Confabulat: Man, what a little baby.


HEY! I said take a few hours!

Confabulat: "I hate SPACE EXPLORATION! I am smart! Other people are all SPACE NUTTERS! I am smart! I hate space I hate space I hate space!"

did i get your argument down yet?


I think technology is magic! The species is doomed! Sci-fi is my Bible! Space is small and full of resources! Gravity well! Stuff!
 
2013-04-24 07:49:00 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: I think technology is magic! The species is doomed! Sci-fi is my Bible! Space is small and full of resources! Gravity well! Stuff!


I hardly think trying to explore outside our current realm of knowledge is a cult. You embarrass yourself.
 
2013-04-24 07:49:41 AM  

Confabulat: Quantum Apostrophe: Confabulat: Go on, then tell me about how five F-22s will provide decades of jobs.

The F-15 is four decades old. Who maintains them? Who flies them? Who upgrades them? Did they do it by themselves? Did they volunteer? Or are they part of an enormous socialist bureaucracy?

Does an F-15 fly for three days and is then jettisoned? Does an F-22? Does a F-22 never wear out, or fly itself, or never need upgrades?

How many hours of maintenance does a fighter jet need for every hour of flight?

So who builds the rockets?


Glorious private enterprise. Out of the goodness of their hearts, and deep DEEP concern for the species*.

*species limited to rich white middle-aged North American men
**everyone else can flap their arms to get off this doomed gravity-well mud ball rock
 
2013-04-24 07:50:46 AM  
It's sort of interesting to read the ravings of a lunatic.
 
2013-04-24 07:50:50 AM  

Confabulat: Quantum Apostrophe: I think technology is magic! The species is doomed! Sci-fi is my Bible! Space is small and full of resources! Gravity well! Stuff!

I hardly think trying to explore outside our current realm of knowledge is a cult. You embarrass yourself.


OK, so now we are exploring "realms of knowledge", and no longer the empty desolate radiation-blasted hell known as space? Here's a knowledge for you: space is empty.
 
2013-04-24 07:51:58 AM  
Let me guess, you are probably in your late 50s and you've been anti- NASA since like 18. Now you are old and forgot why you are so angry about space exploration exactly, but dammit, you won't stop that now!
 
2013-04-24 07:52:33 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Here's a knowledge for you: space is empty


Actually, space is where everything is, dumbass.
 
2013-04-24 07:54:17 AM  

Confabulat: It's sort of interesting to read the ravings of a lunatic.


It's sort of interesting to think people want to leave this planet. Are you saving up for your Mars condo? I can send you a few dollars to get you started. Or just ask Elon Musk to go for free, cuz it's all about the species knowledge and stuff. I mean, there must be REALMS of knowledge on Mars!
 
2013-04-24 07:54:58 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Confabulat: It's sort of interesting to read the ravings of a lunatic.

It's sort of interesting to think people want to leave this planet. Are you saving up for your Mars condo? I can send you a few dollars to get you started. Or just ask Elon Musk to go for free, cuz it's all about the species knowledge and stuff. I mean, there must be REALMS of knowledge on Mars!


Hey tell me more about how space is empty.
 
2013-04-24 07:57:56 AM  

Confabulat: Quantum Apostrophe: Here's a knowledge for you: space is empty

Actually, space is where everything is, dumbass.


Then we're already in it. So what exactly do you gain by leaving this wonderful planet?


Confabulat: Let me guess, you are probably in your late 50s and you've been anti- NASA since like 18. Now you are old and forgot why you are so angry about space exploration exactly, but dammit, you won't stop that now!


Wrong about everything. I used to be the biggest space nut ever, I was on Spacenet and got all kinds of posters and NASA trinkets.

Then I grew up and realized NASA is a PR operation, and technology didn't come from space exploration.

One day, I hope you grow up as well.

No one's going anywhere, might as well get along right here on Earth, eh?

Come on, turn that frown upside-down, let's go walk (since the gravity is correct here) without a space suit (since every other condition is correct as well) and grab a beer and laugh at your delusions.

Maybe we can get rid of that nasty tension you seem to have.

You'll live longer.
 
2013-04-24 07:59:46 AM  

xria: Confabulat: optikeye: If by "Mankind" you mean "Americans" yes.

Anybody else been there lately? Anybody else been there ever?

Plenty of stuff has gone there - India had that impactor not so long ago, and there are all the stuff that has been searching for water near the poles, etc. There is no real scientific reason to send people there again though, and hence no one has wasted billions of dollars sending someone there just for the prestige of doing so, it is not as if there is a lot in being the second (and subsequent) person on the moon anyway, and the supplies it requires would displace 1000 scientific experiments you could send for the same effort (and it is better to do such things iteratively with smaller rockets).


The moon seems like it would be a perfect site for testing long term extra-terrestrial human habitats.  If we're ever going to establish permanent bases/colonies/cities on Mars (and eventually on planets in other solar systems once we figure out FTL travel) we'll need to have well tested habitat modules, ways of producing oxygen, food, and clean water without constant shipments from Earth, ways to repair facilities in case something blows up, fails, or gets hit by random space debris or space rocks, etc.

Setting up a long term permanently occupied  base on the moon would allow us to do that, but make it far easier to send resupply missions or get everyone out in case things go sideways.
 
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