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(Newser)   Second child dies after parents pick prayer over medicine. Guess how the first one died? Go on, guess   (newser.com) divider line 354
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15951 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2013 at 8:48 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-24 12:12:47 AM

theknuckler_33: jst3p: theknuckler_33: That is entirely my point. It was a joke and only a joke. My issue was only with the statement that the joke was preached as some sort of standard Catholic (or any other Christian) teaching. I've made this point several times and is the only point I've wanted to make. For some reason, my point is not being acknowledged for what it is.

For what it is worth: I have been part of some pretty lax congregations. It would be a stretch to call it a "Common Catholic parable" but if I haven't heard heard that joke in church (I heard it so long ago I don't remember where it was) I have heard ones similar. It isn't offensive and it makes a good point about God working for us in unexpected and simple ways. A good message to send since the same God that used to perform major miracles that would make crowds get down on bended knee is shy now that there are camcorders and cell phone cams.

It isn't unreasonable to think this joke was told in church, particularly with more contemporary non-denominationals out there.
'
Oh for goodness sakes. Fine. Mainstream religions preach that God tells people who pray to him for... whatever... that they are morans for not taking advantage of secular solutions to problems they face.


holy shiat (no pun intended).
The point of the story is that God sent the help but the guy was too busy looking for a miraculous solution so he ignored the mundane ways that God works in your life.
NOW do you see why it isn't insulting?
 
2013-04-24 12:13:11 AM

theknuckler_33: jst3p: theknuckler_33: That is entirely my point. It was a joke and only a joke. My issue was only with the statement that the joke was preached as some sort of standard Catholic (or any other Christian) teaching. I've made this point several times and is the only point I've wanted to make. For some reason, my point is not being acknowledged for what it is.

For what it is worth: I have been part of some pretty lax congregations. It would be a stretch to call it a "Common Catholic parable" but if I haven't heard heard that joke in church (I heard it so long ago I don't remember where it was) I have heard ones similar. It isn't offensive and it makes a good point about God working for us in unexpected and simple ways. A good message to send since the same God that used to perform major miracles that would make crowds get down on bended knee is shy now that there are camcorders and cell phone cams.

It isn't unreasonable to think this joke was told in church, particularly with more contemporary non-denominationals out there.
'
Oh for goodness sakes. Fine. Mainstream religions preach that God tells people who pray to him for... whatever... that they are morans for not taking advantage of secular solutions to problems they face.


skullcrusher. this is as close as you are going to get. I suggest accepting this apology.
 
2013-04-24 12:15:36 AM
Fusillade762

MeanJean
You know what would really be great? If the remaining children were fostered by gay couples.

That would be an awesome part to the punishment.

Atheists. I think atheists are more reviled that gays these days.


How about gay atheists? =D
 
2013-04-24 12:16:00 AM

jst3p: theknuckler_33: jst3p: theknuckler_33: That is entirely my point. It was a joke and only a joke. My issue was only with the statement that the joke was preached as some sort of standard Catholic (or any other Christian) teaching. I've made this point several times and is the only point I've wanted to make. For some reason, my point is not being acknowledged for what it is.

For what it is worth: I have been part of some pretty lax congregations. It would be a stretch to call it a "Common Catholic parable" but if I haven't heard heard that joke in church (I heard it so long ago I don't remember where it was) I have heard ones similar. It isn't offensive and it makes a good point about God working for us in unexpected and simple ways. A good message to send since the same God that used to perform major miracles that would make crowds get down on bended knee is shy now that there are camcorders and cell phone cams.

It isn't unreasonable to think this joke was told in church, particularly with more contemporary non-denominationals out there.
'
Oh for goodness sakes. Fine. Mainstream religions preach that God tells people who pray to him for... whatever... that they are morans for not taking advantage of secular solutions to problems they face.

skullcrusher. this is as close as you are going to get. I suggest accepting this apology.


I don't need an apology, he didn't say anything to me. I think he just misinterpreted the story. God sent us to help him interpret it correctly. ;)
 
2013-04-24 12:16:47 AM

MeanJean: Fusillade762

MeanJean
You know what would really be great? If the remaining children were fostered by gay couples.

That would be an awesome part to the punishment.

Atheists. I think atheists are more reviled that gays these days.

How about gay atheists? =D


now you're just repeating yourself

/no, not serious save your quizzical dogs
 
2013-04-24 12:16:48 AM

skullkrusher: jst3p: theknuckler_33: jst3p: theknuckler_33: That is entirely my point. It was a joke and only a joke. My issue was only with the statement that the joke was preached as some sort of standard Catholic (or any other Christian) teaching. I've made this point several times and is the only point I've wanted to make. For some reason, my point is not being acknowledged for what it is.

For what it is worth: I have been part of some pretty lax congregations. It would be a stretch to call it a "Common Catholic parable" but if I haven't heard heard that joke in church (I heard it so long ago I don't remember where it was) I have heard ones similar. It isn't offensive and it makes a good point about God working for us in unexpected and simple ways. A good message to send since the same God that used to perform major miracles that would make crowds get down on bended knee is shy now that there are camcorders and cell phone cams.

It isn't unreasonable to think this joke was told in church, particularly with more contemporary non-denominationals out there.
'
Oh for goodness sakes. Fine. Mainstream religions preach that God tells people who pray to him for... whatever... that they are morans for not taking advantage of secular solutions to problems they face.

skullcrusher. this is as close as you are going to get. I suggest accepting this apology.

I don't need an apology, he didn't say anything to me. I think he just misinterpreted the story. God sent us to help him interpret it correctly. ;)


Speak for yourself. I am here to help him due to chaotic randomness!
 
2013-04-24 12:19:32 AM
The real punchline to the joke is that God THEN said "But I'm sending you to hell anyway for that one time when you were 15 and you masturbated while thinking of Tom Selleck."
 
2013-04-24 12:21:19 AM
God needed them in Heaven.
 
2013-04-24 12:21:57 AM
Last week I was minding my own business when all of the sudden out of nowhere I started wondering if Christian Scientists are technically able to wear glasses. I sort of internally debated it all day without bothering to look it up until later at night when I googled it. The first thing that popped up was a Yahoo Answers thing, and the best response I found was something along the lines of "If trying to get an accurate answer for this question you might want to capitalize the name of the religion."
 
2013-04-24 12:24:12 AM

skullkrusher: theknuckler_33: Dude, I have you farkied for being pedantic and now you are equating the kookie fringe church the folks from TFA belong to with 'mainstream churches'?

huh? No I'm not.

theknuckler_33: Dude, stick to the subject. The 'parable' from plavacek who then said it is told in a lot of Catholic churches. You get it now? That is the point here. THAT claim is farking bullshiat. The kooks from TFA are not from a 'mainstream church'. This isn't about the people from TFA, this isn't abou their church. This is about the farking retarded joke from plavacek being categorized as something that is preached regularly at Catholic masses which is pure farking bullshiat.

I can't tell if you're joking. You're all over the place.
As I said, I can't say that it is taught in many churches but I am familiar with it, I might've heard it in church. It isn't a story I'd be shocked to hear in church. I never said the assholes from TFA are from a mainstream church. I am referring to your incredulity that a Catholic church would preach such a story from the pulpit. I don't find it all that surprising.
You are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too farking angry about this little story that's just meant to tell people to not just hope for a supernatural miracle from prayer but rather recognize the plain ways God helps you and answers your pleas for help.


I've heard it once or twice in Catholic churches -- usually it's a joke to start off a homily about either seeing God in everyday life or about how faith without works is useless. In Protestant churches I could see it being used to illustrate "the Lord helps those who help themselves." Though I've heard the Philip Neri "cut open a feather pillow" one a lot more. Incidentally, anti-abortionism is supposed to be part and parcel of the social justice advocacy; it's about protecting the most small and defenseless. Which, incidentally, means helping out their mothers and not tossing them to the wolves. You'll find that the bishops are consistently in favour of a stronger social safety net. Yes, I know, but that's something they get right.

As for the couple in TFA ... considering what already happened to their other child, I can't help wondering if they're borderline/actually mentally retarded, or broke, or some combination of the two. Not that this would make the outcome different; clearly their surviving children are better off elsewhere.
 
2013-04-24 12:27:09 AM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: The real punchline to the joke is that God THEN said "But I'm sending you to hell anyway for that one time when you were 15 and you masturbated while thinking of Tom Selleck."


Now that was an atheistic joke.

/I LOLed
 
2013-04-24 12:27:15 AM
Unbelievable!
 
2013-04-24 12:28:02 AM
Let's hope it's their last child and our herd is strengthened.
 
2013-04-24 12:33:54 AM

djkutch: IntertubeUser: More evidence that religion is child abuse.  This is perhaps the most heinous of examples.  But parents who teach their children that the earth is 6,000 years old, God hates them queers, etc. are other examples.  But even something as innocuous as faith being a legitimate substitute for evidence or teaching kids to believe in supernatural causes (the basis of religion) leaves impressionable young minds handicapped in the real world.

Religion IS child abuse.

I think that's needs to be qualified. Religion itself is not the problem.  It's an idea. You can't get rid of ideas.  We were once going to bomb Communism out of existence in Vietnam. That was a stated goal. How did that work out?

It's the creators and practitioners of various religion that we should take issue with.

We're all down on Catholicism because of pedophilia, right? I rent 3 houses to Catholic Communities Charities Services.  Have for a while.  They do good things.  Very similar to the Section 8 program. Should I have said no because it was Catholic? By the way the Catholic church feeds a lot of people. In the 6 to 7 digit range. Say no to it?

These people are nutters, but don't paint a broad stroke against religion. Get after the nutters. Most religious people feel an obligation to do the golden rule.


Tell that to all the LGBTs that would like to get married.
 
2013-04-24 12:37:44 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-24 12:42:07 AM

Shedim: hawcian: Here you go (it's mentioned near the end). It's pretty well known that Aldrin celebrated communion. NASA didn't broadcast it because of an ongoing lawsuit at the time.

Thanks - I didn't know that.

Not to threadjack, what makes people decide to stop using services they clearly benefited from when they were kids? I mean, surely their parents were just as religious and they still would've taken them to the doctor if they got sick... right?


Often their parents were not as religious. A lot of this stuff is people being "born again" and going radical in the first generation. Quiverfull in particular, there's tons of people with normal childhoods who "find Jesus" as adults and then go all out into this "traditional" religion which is anything but.  Case in point: Michelle Duggar.

(Though the "no doctors, just pray on it" is extreme even for the extreme.)
 
2013-04-24 12:51:59 AM

theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: theknuckler_33:I guess the fact that "This parable is told a lot in Catholic churches "  being pure bullshiat struck me the wrong way. I guess that's just me.

I heard it years ago. Maybe in church, I dunno. I can't say that I've gone to a lot of Catholic Churches so I can't really say it is bullshiat or not.

I have a lot of respect for you and this post from you blows my mind. Did you really read that 'joke'?  Are you really trying to tell me that you think it is possible that that might be an actual teaching of the Catholic, or any other, church? A parable that basically teaches that God says "you are a moran"? Did you read it?


Old joke or not, really - I'm completely serious in that I've heard it in church, repeatedly. Our pastor for many years was of the pastoral Irish Catholic tradition, and he opened darn near every homily with a joke. This was one of his favorites.

I guess I don't see your objection to it? The moral, or the one that resonates with me anyway, is that we need to recognize when our prayers are answered and sometimes take action ourselves. These people have failed, twice, and have lost two children because of it. That's all. If there's something deeply offensive to you about it, I'd love for you to explain what it is.
 
2013-04-24 01:03:04 AM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: The real punchline to the joke is that God THEN said "But I'm sending you to hell anyway for that one time when you were 15 and you masturbated while thinking of Tom Selleck."


1.bp.blogspot.com
It IS God.
 
2013-04-24 01:04:18 AM

Amos Quito: [www.nationnews.com image 450x350]

They obviously prayed to the wrong god


Why pray to Hermes/Mercury when the god of healing was Apollo, and his son Asclepius. Asclepius symbol is:  www.elpasosurgical.com

The reason people use the Caduceus as a symbol for healing is because the post-Civil War Army Medical Corp were didn't know Greek mythology very well...
 
2013-04-24 01:07:13 AM
This just proves what I've always thought, God is an asshole.
 
2013-04-24 01:13:38 AM
what a shiatty way to go
 
2013-04-24 01:22:38 AM

Shedim: TheOtherMisterP: RedWineBuzz: Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.

And what's the first thing Buzz Aldrin did when he got to the moon? He celebrated Communion.

[imgs.xkcd.com image 500x271]


It is true:  http://www.snopes.com/glurge/communion.asp

But he didn't get to the moon by praying. He got to the moon through science. Religion simply provides some people a guilt-free way to be douchebags to each other, under the guise of righeteousness, and others inspiration.

As the quote goes: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion" - Steven Weinberg
 
2013-04-24 01:27:08 AM
This is an example of hubris.  We are the Chosen Ones, so God will drop what he's doing to save us even though we have the means to save  each other.  And when he does, it will prove that we are better than those who died.
 
2013-04-24 01:36:19 AM
Wow. This thread went to hell real fast.

Seriously. I'm in fear for my mortal soul I'm laughing so hard.
 
2013-04-24 01:38:18 AM

ruinevil: Amos Quito: [www.nationnews.com image 450x350]

They obviously prayed to the wrong god

Why pray to Hermes/Mercury when the god of healing was Apollo, and his son Asclepius. Asclepius symbol is:  [www.elpasosurgical.com image 40x177]

The reason people use the Caduceus as a symbol for healing is because the post-Civil War Army Medical Corp were didn't know Greek mythology very well...



So they should pray to Asclepius?


/Works for me
 
2013-04-24 01:39:08 AM

jst3p: [i303.photobucket.com image 716x535]


Almost every time I see your username and your highlighted posts, I remember that thread. Good times were had by most.
 
2013-04-24 01:41:36 AM

johnnieconnie: They were convicted of involuntary manslaughter the first time.

/hope they get Murder One with life for this one


Why did they still have custody of any children?
 
2013-04-24 02:10:36 AM

tuna fingers: djkutch:

....mentioning catholicism...

These people are nutters, but don't paint a broad stroke against religion. Get after the nutters. Most religious people feel an obligation to do the golden rule.

If you don't mind, I'd like to interject something about Catholicism as I knew it growing up.  Somehow in my youth I went to a progressive parish that focused on social justice.  The sermons derived to helping the poor and doing good deeds and doing good deeds and assisting the poor, and pray to god.  It wasn't until high school that I learned my cousins encountered a different Catholicism.  A righteous, anti-abortion, brimstone and fire Catholicism.  I think my liberal Catholicism is vanishing... I think the Vatican II  (initially anyway) allowed for some progressive teachings.
I think that is gone now.
I don't really give a fark anymore, as I no longer believe in shiat, but I just know that I had a different upraising of what the church was/could be in the 70s and 80s.


I am a Seattle liberal catholic too. Masses were ardently anti war and anti discrimination. They focused on eliminating the death penalty and increasing access to healthcare. Then like you, I met the nutters who begin and end with abortion. What an embarrassment.
 
2013-04-24 02:53:49 AM

skullkrusher: MeanJean: Fusillade762

MeanJean
You know what would really be great? If the remaining children were fostered by gay couples.

That would be an awesome part to the punishment.

Atheists. I think atheists are more reviled that gays these days.

How about gay atheists? =D

now you're just repeating yourself

/no, not serious save your quizzical dogs


Gaytheists.
 
2013-04-24 03:01:33 AM
God: "I sent you doctors and miraculous medicines. What more was I supposed to do? Why do you insist on me performing magic tricks when I have given you the ability to help yourselves?"

/hope these people rot in jail forever
 
2013-04-24 03:41:56 AM
"The 8-month-old died on Thursday, after experiencing diarrhea and having trouble breathing, thePhiladelphia Inquirer reports."

pffft!  I've had diarrhea and trouble breathing before and I didn't take any medicine for it and I'm just fine.

/prayer works
 
2013-04-24 03:46:38 AM
"Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God "

Take your kids to the doctor, don't play in traffic either while you're at it.
You are expected to be vigilant and responsible.
 
2013-04-24 03:50:23 AM

sithon: And these are the people breeding in great numbers .


When your offspring die of easily cured ailments, you need to breed in larger numbers.  We either have to hope for the entire bloodline to be terminated or for the children to grow up with functioning brains.  The latter being highly unlikely considering their parentage.
 
2013-04-24 03:59:10 AM
grumppycatGOOD.jpg
 
2013-04-24 04:29:52 AM
I'm not a religious man but Is it not possible that the medicine was the answer to their prayers.
 
2013-04-24 04:40:19 AM
Laughter?

Exploding bladder?

Autoerotic asphyxiation?
 
2013-04-24 04:51:29 AM
that sky fairy needs to come with a health warning.
 
2013-04-24 05:14:18 AM
Why did they think He would save thier kids? He didn't even bother to save His own.
 
2013-04-24 06:12:07 AM
But Gays adopting kids is harmful to them. But abortion is murder. I bet these people also like Creationism... sorry, people... this is an example of natural selection, but too bad your kids had to pay for your idiocy.

And Jesus wept.
 
2013-04-24 06:45:17 AM
Stories like this make me Twitchell ...

/recovered Christian Scientist
 
2013-04-24 08:01:51 AM
World's crappiest HMO.
 
2013-04-24 08:39:13 AM
This thing is that God likes children to die. That's historically been the norm -- those "people only lived to an average age of 35" statistics about the past are usually horribly skewed by the very high infant mortality rate, whereas if you could survive childhood it appears you usually made it into old age.

Still, I have mixed opinions on this... the concept seems to be that the kid might have chosen to get medical attention if he had the option, so parents failure to get it for him is neglect or manslaughter; but kids usually are never granted any other legal rights of their own based on what they would choose, so I don't see why that's different here. Yeah, he ends up dead, but unless the parents deliberately made him sick, then there's a ton of other weird accidents that could befall and kill him at any time -- even with medical treatment.
 
2013-04-24 08:42:42 AM
I don't get this "no doctors" thing at all. God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, right? I mean, that's a major tenet of the religion, no? So God is all of this EXCEPT when it comes to medecine? God is everywhere present, but not in the doctor, the hospital, the pharmacy? Not there? God is all knowing, but not medical knowledge? God works in mysterious ways, but not ever through the hands and brains of people who have been to medical school?

Makes no sense to me, as does the fact that these people were given a second chance to kill a kid.
 
2013-04-24 08:50:12 AM

theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: theknuckler_33: That is entirely my point. It was a joke and only a joke. My issue was only with the statement that the joke was preached as some sort of standard Catholic (or any other Christian) teaching. I've made this point several times and is the only point I've wanted to make. For some reason, my point is not being acknowledged for what it is.

you never heard a joke made from the pulpit? I don't think it appears in the catechism anywhere but you've had a few people in this thread who are very familiar with it - who may or may not have heard it in church - and it is in no way contrary to any Church teaching and in fact supports what we learned in Catholic school and therefore could quite legitimately be used during a homily.

Priests don't make joke that mock God. You get the joke, right?  God is telling the guy that he's an idiot, right? That's not the kind of God that they preach at church. You get that, right?


I heard it from a priest, so yeah, priests do tell that story.
 
2013-04-24 08:55:00 AM

itazurakko: Shedim: hawcian: Here you go (it's mentioned near the end). It's pretty well known that Aldrin celebrated communion. NASA didn't broadcast it because of an ongoing lawsuit at the time.

Thanks - I didn't know that.

Not to threadjack, what makes people decide to stop using services they clearly benefited from when they were kids? I mean, surely their parents were just as religious and they still would've taken them to the doctor if they got sick... right?

Often their parents were not as religious. A lot of this stuff is people being "born again" and going radical in the first generation. Quiverfull in particular, there's tons of people with normal childhoods who "find Jesus" as adults and then go all out into this "traditional" religion which is anything but.  Case in point: Michelle Duggar.

(Though the "no doctors, just pray on it" is extreme even for the extreme.)


At least the Duggars do use doctors, which saved their 2nd youngest's (3rd youngest? Who can keep count) life.

Not that I agree with their life choices, but this is one thing I'll give them.
 
2013-04-24 08:57:59 AM

theknuckler_33: skullkrusher: theknuckler_33: After reading your comment correctly (I misread it at first), I'm not really sure the point yo are trying to make. I am simply arguing against the idea that the joke 'parable' that we are talking about is some kind of regular teaching... basically anywhere. It is a joke. No church teaches it. Do you agree?

no, as I said I heard it years ago and I don't know who would've told me. Maybe it was in church, maybe the priest who lead our youth group get-togethers on Thursday nights during the summer, maybe my uncle who was 1/2 a bottle deep in some Jameson at Christmas... I don't remember. I don't find it out of line with anything I know that I've learned in 16 years of Catholic education though so if I suddenly remembered tomorrow that I did hear it during a homily, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

As someone who went through 12 years of Catholic eduction, was an alter-boy for 5 years, marched in May Day ceremonies for several years, went to and 'served' during stations of the cross for many years during my formative years, I never heard that 'story' ever in school or church. It is impossible for me to acknowledge that anyone cannot recognize that 'parable' as anything other than a slap in the face to anyone who believes in God. What could possibly be the lesson of that parable to a Catholic or any Christian?!? That story is preposterous from a theological standpoint. It mocks religion entirely. For goodness sakes, it is an atheist joke about religion.


I have definitely heard it used in a Catholic homily more than once as well as it being a favorite of my great uncle who was a Catholic priest. Of course he was aldo a chaplain in ww2and later a prison chaplain so that flavored his preaching a bit
 
2013-04-24 09:53:08 AM

gopher321: He fixed the cable?


As far as I'm concerned, you've won this thread.
 
2013-04-24 10:27:55 AM

namegoeshere: At least the Duggars do use doctors, which saved their 2nd youngest's (3rd youngest? Who can keep count) life.


Oh, absolutely.  They're just a good example of the "first generation" thing.  You see it in a lot of the "courtship only!" crap - parents who dated normally before "finding Jesus" and having their 14392309 kids then pretty much lock them (or at least the girls) down on the farm and don't allow any socialization evar, particularly with boys (who are supposed to apply to Daddy for permission to possibly "court" the girl before she hears anything about it) because it's all so wonderfully pure and Godly and the "wonderful girlhood" they wished they'd had, and then they wonder, wow, how come our daughters are still single at 27+?
 
2013-04-24 10:42:33 AM

flondrix: johnnieconnie: They were convicted of involuntary manslaughter the first time.

/hope they get Murder One with life for this one

Why did they still have custody of any children?


Good question. Normally, people who cause a child's death get prison time, but they invoked the "because Jesus" clause and that makes it ok.  But fark that, I say lock 'em up and throw away the key.
 
2013-04-24 11:52:26 AM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: No matter one's personal theology (or lack thereof) I think we can all agree that if there is an afterlife these snapperheads have a permanent reservation in the room by the elevator in the most disused wing of the Endless Vuvuzela & Pan Flute Orchestra covers "Nickleback" Concert building adjacent to the Never-Ceasing Rerun of "Batman & Robin" Screen next to the Lake of Burning Hobo Semen where the roving Octo-Penised Rapenocerouses always have full bottles of Cialis.


That was awesome.
 
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