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(Kotaku)   Good: Indie developer reaches kickstarter goal of $150k for new content. Great: Goes on to raise $800k for even more content. Fail: Paypal withholds funds   (kotaku.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine  
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9298 clicks; posted to Geek » on 23 Apr 2013 at 2:43 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-23 01:01:25 PM  
Haven't had a "PayPal sucks" thread in a while. I've been with PayPal as long as they've been around and have never had a problem. Guess following a few basic rules makes all the difference.
 
2013-04-23 01:03:54 PM  
I couldn't figure out what this was about until I read this:

PayPal froze Lab Zero's account because it feared a large number of chargebacks if backers didn't get their favorite characters in the final DLC roster.
(
from the linked article  http://kotaku.com/paypal-shafts-indie-developer-withholds-donated-mon e y-477592948 )

My interpretation was that Paypal execs wanted their favorite characters in the game or else.
 
2013-04-23 01:07:29 PM  
And this is why I pay for everything in BTC... Don't have to worry about central authority witholding payment.
 
2013-04-23 01:49:45 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: PayPal froze Lab Zero's account because it feared a large number of chargebacks if backers didn't get their favorite characters in the final DLC roster.


More like they were afraid of charge-backs, which (as I understand it) can cost about 35$ per transaction, in addition to the requested money being returned
 
2013-04-23 02:50:45 PM  
As all it takes is fear to withhold money from customers.

How American.
 
2013-04-23 02:50:51 PM  
Wow if only Paypal could charge customers to compensate themselves for the risks involved with providing financial transactions to them. They could call it a "fee."
 
2013-04-23 02:55:49 PM  
I like how Senator Warren's CFPB helped the developers get their money.
 
2013-04-23 02:57:41 PM  
Where can I give money to get some more ships/maps/scenarios for FTL?
 
2013-04-23 02:57:50 PM  
Imagine if one of those employees had missed a critical payment on something because of Paypal freezing the account.  Then what?  Should Paypal have to cover everything.  I think damned right they should.  That and hang the asshole that froze the account.  Bullshiat like this that can and does hurt people needs to be punished severely.
 
2013-04-23 02:59:25 PM  
This doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me....given the little I know about PayPal.  I could be wrong, but I swear Google Checkout had a similar system (involving credit cards).

When you 'sold' something or were 'pledged' money (when someone made a payment to you via Google Checkout) you received 'credit'.  But you couldn't immediately cash it out.  It's like a check that hasn't cleared.  Credit cards and PayPal give the buyer a lot of ability to cancel their payment/chargeback or whatever they call it.

If you raise 800k without actually giving anyone an actual product, that's 800k worth of people who would be demanding their money back if the actual product doesn't get delivered.  PayPal would be obligated to refund it, leaving them left to sue some guy who just made 800k and moved to an island somewhere.

PayPal's customer service sucks pretty hard, and maybe I'm wrong...but it doesn't seem completely out of left field.
 
2013-04-23 03:03:06 PM  
Also - it's worth noting there was a huge to do with lots and lots of donors  threatening to revoke their donations because they were upset that the character they voted for didn't win the contest.
 
2013-04-23 03:03:58 PM  
Why would you set up a PayPal account for something like this?
 
2013-04-23 03:06:06 PM  
I like how the people in the comments forget that a large part of the whiney biatches in the FGC that threatened to pull their money are 14 year old who borrowed the money from their parents and shouldn't have spent the money on the Skullgirls expansion in the first place.

Paypal shouldn't have frozen the account entirely.  I'd say that the best thing to do would be to only release a portion of the funds until the entire mess was cleared up.  But freezing the entire account is a horrible idea unless they expected that 100% of the donations were fraudulent, which they obviously were not.
 
2013-04-23 03:07:10 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: This doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me....given the little I know about PayPal.  I could be wrong, but I swear Google Checkout had a similar system (involving credit cards).

When you 'sold' something or were 'pledged' money (when someone made a payment to you via Google Checkout) you received 'credit'.  But you couldn't immediately cash it out.  It's like a check that hasn't cleared.  Credit cards and PayPal give the buyer a lot of ability to cancel their payment/chargeback or whatever they call it.

If you raise 800k without actually giving anyone an actual product, that's 800k worth of people who would be demanding their money back if the actual product doesn't get delivered.  PayPal would be obligated to refund it, leaving them left to sue some guy who just made 800k and moved to an island somewhere.

PayPal's customer service sucks pretty hard, and maybe I'm wrong...but it doesn't seem completely out of left field.


Precisely. The money wasn't theirs to begin with. Pledges and donations are two different things, but I guess some just can't comprehend that.
 
2013-04-23 03:07:19 PM  

fisker: Why would you set up a PayPal account for something like this?


This^^

Friends don't let friends use paypal.
 
2013-04-23 03:15:20 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Haven't had a "PayPal sucks" thread in a while. I've been with PayPal as long as they've been around and have never had a problem. Guess following a few basic rules makes all the difference.


Kotaku loves to get the nerds in a rage. It allows everyone to forget for a moment that they're socially-stunted virgin gamers.
 
2013-04-23 03:17:01 PM  
Paypal is not the best choice, its the only choice in a lot of situations still.
 
2013-04-23 03:21:49 PM  
We're using IndieGoGo for our fundraiser (which isn't doing great.) A lot of people have come to us and said "I hate PayPal, you should have used Kickstarter!"

But before we ever started the campaign, we had people telling us "Use IndieGoGo, I hate Amazon Payments!"

Seems like you just can't make everyone happy. It sucks, because we just need money and we don't want to piss of people based on choice of payment system.
 
2013-04-23 03:33:48 PM  

Elzar: And this is why I pay for everything in BTC... Don't have to worry about central authority witholding payment.


And by "everything" you mean pizza and weed.
 
2013-04-23 03:34:42 PM  
This is a prime example of why PayPal should be avoided for anything involving an intangible item. In addition to this scenario, they also virtually always side with the buyer in a dispute involving intangible goods - so sellers of digital services (IE, web design and development) should never accept paypal unless you want to take  chargeback clients to court to recover losses..
 
2013-04-23 03:35:03 PM  

Elzar: And this is why I pay for everything in BTC... Don't have to worry about central authority witholding payment.


So you didn't use any of the exchanges that were recently shut down?
 
2013-04-23 03:43:18 PM  

Keyser_Soze_Death: fisker: Why would you set up a PayPal account for something like this?

This^^

Friends don't let friends use paypal.


I'm genuinely curious as to a good alternative.  I've had so many bad experiences with their customer service but I feel like there's no other way.
I really hate paypal.  A lot!!
boards.cannabis.com
 
2013-04-23 03:46:28 PM  
Seriously? $800,000 for that hunk of shiat looking game?

I hope it's really fun... it will have to be.
 
2013-04-23 03:48:12 PM  
Looks like they just want to make sure it all clears given donor threats.  Though they should've handled it how they were forced to after the complaint; freeze a portion as collateral.
 
2013-04-23 03:50:59 PM  

MrEricSir: Elzar: And this is why I pay for everything in BTC... Don't have to worry about central authority witholding payment.

So you didn't use any of the exchanges that were recently shut down?


There is really only one exchange and that hasn't had any major issues in about a year and a half, I couldn't imagine using anyone but the largest, I mean you could try trusting someone to convert your btc to paypal funds for you.
 
2013-04-23 03:52:04 PM  
IndieGoGo =/= Kickstarter,  ignorantmitter.
 
2013-04-23 03:52:26 PM  
PayPal is not a bank.  It is not regulated like one.  If you get farked over by PayPal, stop using PayPal.  Or better yet, never sign up for PayPal to begin with.  They LOVE freezing large amounts of cash.  And God knows what it'll be covered in if you finally get it back.
 
2013-04-23 03:53:36 PM  

Elzar: And this is why I pay for everything in BTC... Don't have to worry about central authority witholding payment.


Nice try, but TF won't take anything but PayPal (unless that has changed recently).  It's why I'm not a TFer any more.
 
2013-04-23 03:55:34 PM  

ExpressPork: I'm genuinely curious as to a good alternative. I've had so many bad experiences with their customer service but I feel like there's no other way.
I really hate paypal. A lot!!


My alternative is simple: no PayPal.

/which means no TF :(
 
2013-04-23 04:11:31 PM  
I have never heard of this game (probably because it's an indie game).  Anyone have it and can give an honest review?
 
2013-04-23 04:11:40 PM  

ExpressPork: Keyser_Soze_Death: fisker: Why would you set up a PayPal account for something like this?

This^^

Friends don't let friends use paypal.

I'm genuinely curious as to a good alternative.  I've had so many bad experiences with their customer service but I feel like there's no other way.
I really hate paypal.  A lot!!
[boards.cannabis.com image 629x340]


if you are a seller/merchant that collects more than $500/mo in CC payments, get a real merchant account from a BANK, where you get to enjoy the normal expected merchant protections.

These guys are good and very competitive: bluepay.com

There are many others, your bank will likely compete for your CC transaction business too, if offered.
 
2013-04-23 04:19:06 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Haven't had a "PayPal sucks" thread in a while. I've been with PayPal as long as they've been around and have never had a problem. Guess following a few basic rules makes all the differenceBecause I've personally never had problems, nobody else has either, or, if they did, it had to be their fault.


Not a valid argument.

If you're dumb enough to keep putting money into an account with a stipulation that it can be taken from you for any reason any time that's your problem.
 
2013-04-23 04:32:06 PM  

PsyLord: I have never heard of this game (probably because it's an indie game).  Anyone have it and can give an honest review?


I'm hardly the fighting game expert in the universe, so most of what I know about the game goes off-hand.  Based on the better sources that I've read on the topic, Skullgirls is best described as Marvel vs. Capcom 2 without the things that made that game interesting, namely the large character rosters, tag mechanics, quality air fighting, and manic pace of the game.  In addition, Skullgirls manages its infinite combos very poorly and there are tons of situations in matchups which are either unwinnable for various characters or are simply boring.  Or, the short response: Western-Designed Fighting Game™.

Perlin Noise: Seriously? $800,000 for that hunk of shiat looking game?


Games cost a lot of money to make.  You gotta pay people, you gotta give them the proper equipment, and if you want the job done well, you have to pay for that as well.
 
2013-04-23 04:34:42 PM  

PsyLord: I have never heard of this game (probably because it's an indie game). Anyone have it and can give an honest review?


It was alright; animation was pretty nice. It's a $15 fighting game; don't go in expecting Street Fighter, Marvel, or Aksys production values, but it wasn't broken or anything like that. The 1, 2, or 3 character team per-player (stats scaled for balance) + letting you chose which move gets used as an assist made it a bit interesting. Don't expect much from single-player, but that's true for pretty much every fighting game ever. Only shipped with 8 characters though, hence the crowd-funded interest in additional characters.

I don't play fighting game enough to rate the mechanics but it seemed competent.
 
2013-04-23 04:35:05 PM  
Paypal hate aside, Jesus these "fans" are assholes.

A game that was otherwise dead in the water is getting new content, but i'm going to pull out if I don't get exactly what I want. I won't use the new buzzword "entitled", I call this juvenile.
 
2013-04-23 04:36:03 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: PayPal is not a bank.  It is not regulated like one.  If you get farked over by PayPal, stop using PayPal.  Or better yet, never sign up for PayPal to begin with.  They LOVE freezing large amounts of cash.  And God knows what it'll be covered in if you finally get it back.


They have the word PAL in their name.  They're friendly!  How could they possible screw you?!?  They're not called PayExGirlfriendWhoWouldntTakeFacialsFromMeButLetTheOtherGuyDoIt.
 
2013-04-23 04:36:22 PM  
He should have used bitcoins instead.
 
2013-04-23 04:37:10 PM  

Girl Pants: Paypal hate aside, Jesus these "fans" are assholes.

A game that was otherwise dead in the water is getting new content, but i'm going to pull out if I don't get exactly what I want. I won't use the new buzzword "entitled", I call this juvenile.


And thus, you have found out the problem with Kickstarter.

And now you know why people centuries ago created equity financing.
 
hej
2013-04-23 04:42:01 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Haven't had a "PayPal sucks" thread in a while. I've been with PayPal as long as they've been around and have never had a problem. Guess following a few basic rules makes all the difference.


What rule did they break in TFA?
 
2013-04-23 04:42:41 PM  

Girl Pants: A game that was otherwise dead in the water is getting new content, but i'm going to pull out if I don't get exactly what I want. I won't use the new buzzword "entitled", I call this juvenile.


The girl they wanted to fap to got canned, so why bother?
 
2013-04-23 04:45:51 PM  
So if I'm reading this right, the story should be less about Paypal holding the account hostage and more about the donors being such whiny brats that Paypal panicked and froze the account to give themselves time to prepare for a possible flood of refunds.

If that's the case, the community only has themselves to blame.
 
2013-04-23 05:01:47 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Haven't had a "PayPal sucks" thread in a while. I've been with PayPal as long as they've been around and have never had a problem. Guess following a few basic rules makes all the difference.


You're one of the rare happy eBay customers obviously. There are thousands of problems people have had with paypal documented all over the internet, I must be the only one reading some. Yes, i've sold on eBay for over 10 years and paypal has shafted me several times.
 
2013-04-23 05:17:19 PM  
That's nice... now if only Camelot Unchained could get funded.
 
2013-04-23 05:33:17 PM  

graeth: Paypal is not the best choice, its the only choice in a lot of situations still.


Which is why I still don't have TF. After the regretsy incident I flat refuse to do business with PayPal, but PayPal is the only option for paying for TF.
 
2013-04-23 05:45:19 PM  
Crowdfunding is to make more DoubleFine videogames and to make more Veronica Mars  tv shows, silly, not for indies trying to get started.
 
2013-04-23 05:49:31 PM  
They did the same thing to the Grim Dawn devs before their kickstarter.
 
2013-04-23 05:50:09 PM  

fisker: Why would you set up a PayPal account for something like this?


Because, IIRC, you have to.

I was trying to do something like this for my band, and almost everything requires PayPal. I got uncomfortable with the whole setup and didn't end up even trying, but I do recall a few sites that demanded a PayPal.  (Also on needed like a business tax ID, which I don't have being that my band is about as much a business as some kid's lemonade stand at this point.)
 
2013-04-23 05:59:13 PM  
Doesn't help that you had high profile chargeback/refund requests for kickstarters like Shadowrun.  A lot of folks don't seem to understand that kickstart isn't a preorder, and you can't just pull your funds and go home if the company does something you don't like.
 
2013-04-23 05:59:50 PM  
Fools and their money
 
2013-04-23 06:03:10 PM  
Yeah, but it's Skullgirls. Paypal is trying to do you a favor.
 
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