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(Accounting Today)   IRS: What do you want from us, anyway? We only improperly paid out 1 out of every 4 earned income tax credit claims, and that's like a piddling little $11 billion annual ripoff so quit your biatchin'   (accountingtoday.com) divider line 124
    More: Asinine, Earned Income Tax Credit, IRS  
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2087 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Apr 2013 at 11:06 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-23 01:52:22 PM  
I am outraged that an agency stripped of manpower has an increase in the error rate!
 
2013-04-23 01:56:40 PM  
It's only $11 billion. BHFD. The government has trillions to spend.
 
2013-04-23 01:57:15 PM  
This again.  The IRS has repeatedly asked congress to clarify the rules governing the EITC and congress has done nothing.  They produce these reports frequently to press the point.

This whole thing came up 6-8 months ago about EITC going to non-citizens.  Congress needs to fix the law, the IRS can't just change the rules themselves.
 
2013-04-23 01:58:17 PM  
But but but, Iraq!!!

But but but corporations paying less tax because of govt created incentives to improve the economy!!!

How about we concentrate on each issue individually? Just because we wasted money in Iraq doesn't mean we should also waste money giving it away to people claiming EITC. Just because we've had bipartisan passage of bonus depreciation to stimulate spending on new equipment doesn't mean we should also give away money to fraudsters.
 
2013-04-23 01:59:54 PM  

Lost Thought 00: pdee: The EITC is pure BS.

/CSB = on

There are a ton of things wrong with what happened in that story, but the tax refund was by far the least of them


The point is, if we don't keep black people poor, they'll only get into trouble. It's the white man's burden to see to their upkeep, and part of that is making sure they don't get enough of anything to hurt themselves.
 
2013-04-23 02:00:10 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: But but but, Iraq!!!

But but but corporations paying less tax because of govt created incentives to improve the economy!!!

How about we concentrate on each issue individually? Just because we wasted money in Iraq doesn't mean we should also waste money giving it away to people claiming EITC. Just because we've had bipartisan passage of bonus depreciation to stimulate spending on new equipment doesn't mean we should also give away money to fraudsters.


James!: This again.  The IRS has repeatedly asked congress to clarify the rules governing the EITC and congress has done nothing.  They produce these reports frequently to press the point.

This whole thing came up 6-8 months ago about EITC going to non-citizens.   Congress needs to fix the law, the IRS can't just change the rules themselves.

 
2013-04-23 02:00:28 PM  
So the same people who complain about how the government and the IRS shouldn't be coming after your money are upset that the government and the IRS didn't come after your money enough?
 
2013-04-23 02:01:47 PM  
This is why we need more taxes.
So the government can waste more money.

/this is what liberals actually believe.
 
2013-04-23 02:06:10 PM  

Paul Baumer: Notably absent - commentary about properly filed EITC claims that are questioned by the IRS and conceded by the taxpayer because they get the shiate scared out of them when dealing with the IRS.

//former agent


Why would people be afraid of the IRS? They are kind and helpful people. They are public servants.
 
2013-04-23 02:06:15 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: impaler: Link
Step 1: Deny 1 in 4 credits in audit
Step 2: Extrapolate denial rate to non-audited accounts
Step 3: Claim 11 billion in erroneous over-payment

It's even funnier that massaging the numbers to make the IRS look bad still pales in comparison to the tax breaks and subsidies corporations strong arm and bribe their way into receiving.


And yet every call to simplify the tax codes is blocked by democrats. The subsidies they give away are honest and needed.
 
2013-04-23 02:06:40 PM  

Alphakronik: So, they are biatching about a loss that is equal to the tax subsidies of one Fortune 500 company.


LOL


So you think that the Fortune 500 companies get $11B in annual subsidies?  That would mean about $5.5 trillion dollars in annual subsidies.  LOL is right.

/this is what liberals actually believe.
 
2013-04-23 02:06:53 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I am outraged that an agency stripped of manpower has an increase in the error rate!


Stripped of manpower? Lolwut.
 
2013-04-23 02:08:34 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: This is why we need more taxes.
So the government can waste more money.

/this is what liberals actually believe.


Combined government spending levels at 39.8% of GDP last year isn't that much.
 
2013-04-23 02:09:07 PM  

MyRandomName: Sergeant Grumbles: impaler: Link
Step 1: Deny 1 in 4 credits in audit
Step 2: Extrapolate denial rate to non-audited accounts
Step 3: Claim 11 billion in erroneous over-payment

It's even funnier that massaging the numbers to make the IRS look bad still pales in comparison to the tax breaks and subsidies corporations strong arm and bribe their way into receiving.

And yet every call to simplify the tax codes is blocked by democrats. The subsidies they give away are honest and needed.


How would you 'simplify' tax codes in such a way that doesn't cripple the economy or the lower and middle class?

We are a very complex and intricate society. Simple solutions are very inefficient. You're asking for the tax code equivalent of Education's Zero Tolerance policies.
 
2013-04-23 02:14:56 PM  

Jobber8742: RminusQ: pdee: He was a bla man in his mid 20s about 5'5" maybe 130 Lbs.

Cool story, Rick. By the way, EITC tops out at about $5,000, so you're fully of shiat.


EIC does, but that doesn't mean the refund can't be more. He'd also qualify for a Refundable Child Tax Credit for each, that's another $2,000 right there. Add whatever he had withheld, and it definiately could get that high. The baby mommas could send a claim to the IRS for those kids though and they'd be able to claim them and he'd owe the money back, but it's not like someone like that would ever have the money to pay it back.


Yeah, his story might be full of shiat, but not because of numbers. My ex-wife makes ~17k a year and has 6 kids that she can still claim as dependents. She gets ~8k back every single year and has it all spent by March.
 
2013-04-23 02:15:47 PM  

jigger:
Why would people be afraid of the IRS? They are kind and helpful people. They are public servants.

Very much this. My parents underwent an audit a couple of years ago (rules for FASFA eligibility had changed and dad didn't update the records, since he's a joint signer on my loans), and they still say it was extremely easy. The IRS people (even the phone support ones) don't want to fark with you, they just want the money and the forms.

Summercat: How would you 'simplify' tax codes in such a way that doesn't cripple the economy or the lower and middle class?

We are a very complex and intricate society. Simple solutions are very inefficient. You're asking for the tax code equivalent of Education's Zero Tolerance policies.


We could try treating all income, regardless of source, as equal and taxing it the same as ordinary income. That would cut some pages from the tax code, making it "simpler".
 
2013-04-23 02:16:30 PM  
I've never used the Earned Income Tax Credit, but I was always suspicious that was where most of the fraud may be taking place. I still don't know if it really is, but it seems like an obvious place to begin looking for fraud for most people.
 
2013-04-23 02:16:47 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: "If you give black people more money, they'll use it to cause trouble."

That's the way you read it. I'd feel the same if the criminals were the color of a babbon's ass.


"How is babbon formed?"
 
2013-04-23 02:18:25 PM  

Dafatone: So the same people who complain about how the government and the IRS shouldn't be coming after your money are upset that the government and the IRS didn't come after your money enough?


They're doing it in Wisconsin here.  Calling for the resignation of the UW President..........because he ran a surplus this year.....
 
2013-04-23 02:19:11 PM  
Snarcoleptic_Hoosier:
Summercat: How would you 'simplify' tax codes in such a way that doesn't cripple the economy or the lower and middle class?

We are a very complex and intricate society. Simple solutions are very inefficient. You're asking for the tax code equivalent of Education's Zero Tolerance policies.

We could try treating all income, regardless of source, as equal and taxing it the same as ordinary income. That would cut some pages from the tax code, making it "simpler".


Okay, you got me there. That might do some simplification, indeed.

However, most calls for 'simplifing' the tax code involve cutting out all tax credits and the graduated income tax, and instituting either a flat income tax or doing away with it and imposing consumption taxes.
 
2013-04-23 02:23:36 PM  

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: Yes, that's way I read it because they made a point of mentioning that the guy is black:


And it's the one thing you focused on whereas I read it and thought "Sounds like a few white trash meth heads in my neck of the woods."
 
2013-04-23 02:24:09 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: We could try treating all income, regardless of source, as equal and taxing it the same as ordinary income.


But that would obviously be class warfare against the Job Creators™, and we can't have that.
 
2013-04-23 02:24:32 PM  

pdee: The EITC is pure BS.

/CSB = on

I was called to jury duty.  The accused was charge with possession with intent to distribute crack cocaine.  He was a bla man in his mid 20s about 5'5" maybe 130 Lbs.  He had someone file his taxes for him.  He earned about $12000 the previous year working part time.   On his taxes he claimed 2 dependents even thou the children did not live with him nor did he pay child support.  They were of course the children of 2 different women.  He received a check from the IRS for over $8000.  The idiot took the check to an any kind check cashing place who charged him 10% just to cash the check.


Whoa!  We gotta move our business down to North Calinky. The NJ DOBI maxes us out at 2.21%
 
2013-04-23 02:24:39 PM  

MyRandomName: tenpoundsofcheese: This is why we need more taxes.
So the government can waste more money.

/this is what liberals actually believe.

Combined government spending levels at 39.8% of GDP last year isn't that much.


It is when debt as a percent of GDP is at a level not seen since 1946.  Debt > GDP = not good.
 
2013-04-23 02:25:57 PM  

Dafatone: So the same people who complain about how the government and the IRS shouldn't be coming after your money are upset that the government and the IRS didn't come after your money enough?


No... The same people that complain that upstanding Rich People are paying too much money to the gubmint so we need to make sure poor blah people who happen to be near pay more becuz SOSHULIZM!!!
 
2013-04-23 02:26:03 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: Yes, that's way I read it because they made a point of mentioning that the guy is black:

And it's the one thing you focused on whereas I read it and thought "Sounds like a few white trash meth heads in my neck of the woods."


Oh FFS, quit being coy and just come right out and accuse them of being racist for noticing racism already.  You know you want to.
 
2013-04-23 02:28:17 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: jigger:
Why would people be afraid of the IRS? They are kind and helpful people. They are public servants.

Very much this. My parents underwent an audit a couple of years ago (rules for FASFA eligibility had changed and dad didn't update the records, since he's a joint signer on my loans), and they still say it was extremely easy. The IRS people (even the phone support ones) don't want to fark with you, they just want the money and the forms.

Summercat: How would you 'simplify' tax codes in such a way that doesn't cripple the economy or the lower and middle class?

We are a very complex and intricate society. Simple solutions are very inefficient. You're asking for the tax code equivalent of Education's Zero Tolerance policies.

We could try treating all income, regardless of source, as equal and taxing it the same as ordinary income. That would cut some pages from the tax code, making it "simpler".


I guess we could eliminate corporate income taxes and tax any investment gains as ordinary income taxes, thus eliminating the onerous corporate tax code and treating all income the same.

But I'm surprised you are in favor of that.
 
2013-04-23 02:28:38 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: It is when debt as a percent of GDP is at a level not seen since 1946. Debt > GDP = not good.


We know that is true because the economists that said it based it on a spreadsheet that wasn't calculating correctly.

But that's ok, because we don't need facts when we have beliefs, amirite?
 
2013-04-23 02:31:20 PM  

maddogdelta: tenpoundsofcheese: It is when debt as a percent of GDP is at a level not seen since 1946. Debt > GDP = not good.

We know that is true because the economists that said it based it on a spreadsheet that wasn't calculating correctly.

But that's ok, because we don't need facts when we have beliefs, amirite?


You do realize that the spreadsheet error doesn't mean more debt isnt detrimental to growth, right?

Just that the 90% debt/GDP inflection point highlighted by Reinhardt rogoff isnt accurate.
 
2013-04-23 02:32:11 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: MyRandomName: tenpoundsofcheese: This is why we need more taxes.
So the government can waste more money.

/this is what liberals actually believe.

Combined government spending levels at 39.8% of GDP last year isn't that much.

It is when debt as a percent of GDP is at a level not seen since 1946.  Debt > GDP = not good.


Worring about GDP vs Debt during a recession and the immediate recovery is like worrying about exercising and losing weight, or cleaning the house, while you're sick with the flu or a long running illness. You need to relax, and eat the chicken soup, and wait until you're better before you tackle the issues.
 
2013-04-23 02:36:11 PM  

MyRandomName: Combined government spending levels at 39.8% of GDP last year isn't that much.


2012 budget $3.538T
2012 GDP $15,000T

Looks closer to 24%
 
2013-04-23 02:38:57 PM  

CptnSpldng: pdee: The EITC is pure BS.

/CSB = on

I was called to jury duty.  The accused was charge with possession with intent to distribute crack cocaine.  He was a bla man in his mid 20s about 5'5" maybe 130 Lbs.  He had someone file his taxes for him.  He earned about $12000 the previous year working part time.   On his taxes he claimed 2 dependents even thou the children did not live with him nor did he pay child support.  They were of course the children of 2 different women.  He received a check from the IRS for over $8000.  The idiot took the check to an any kind check cashing place who charged him 10% just to cash the check.

Whoa!  We gotta move our business down to North Calinky. The NJ DOBI maxes us out at 2.21%


They showed us the receipt.  The guy paid about $860 to cash a check during business hours in the middle of the week.  He could have taken it to any bank and paid no more than $5 or $10.
 
2013-04-23 02:41:40 PM  

maddogdelta: tenpoundsofcheese: It is when debt as a percent of GDP is at a level not seen since 1946. Debt > GDP = not good.

We know that is true because the economists that said it based it on a spreadsheet that wasn't calculating correctly.

But that's ok, because we don't need facts when we have beliefs, amirite?


that is the wrong context
here is better link
 
2013-04-23 02:41:45 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: I guess we could eliminate corporate income taxes and tax any investment gains as ordinary income taxes, thus eliminating the onerous corporate tax code and treating all income the same.


Since corporations are legal persons, I guess that moves their "ordinary" tax bracket to 35% marginal.
 
2013-04-23 02:45:18 PM  

pdee: He could have taken it to any bank and paid no more than $5 or $10.


More than 20% of African-Americans and Hispanics do not have a bank account. Link
 
2013-04-23 02:46:19 PM  

impaler: MyRandomName: Combined government spending levels at 39.8% of GDP last year isn't that much.

2012 budget $3.538T
2012 GDP $15,000T

Looks closer to 24%


Combined means all of government spending, not just federal.
 
2013-04-23 02:48:15 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: pdee: He could have taken it to any bank and paid no more than $5 or $10.

More than 20% of African-Americans and Hispanics do not have a bank account. Link


fta:   Sabino Fuentes-Sanchez hid $25,000 all around his house because he didn't trust banks.

Stupid people do stupid things.  What is your point?
 
2013-04-23 02:50:47 PM  

impaler: 2012 budget $3.538T
2012 GDP $15,000T

Looks closer to 24%

tenpoundsofcheese: hat is the wrong context
here is better link


soooo... you don't believe the raging socialists at Bloomberg, huh?  And you want me to believe some random graph photoshopped and put on some image hosting site?

As I said, who  (dailyfinance.com) needs (slate.com) facts (guardian.co.uk) when (those raging socialists at IEEE who will have you believe silly things like Ohm's law!) you have (All dem Marxists at the Wall Street Journal... and they point out that it is not just the spreadsheet error that says these twats are full of shiat)  beliefs?

Even when numbers are calculated correctly, building a sample large enough to produce meaningful results means applying the experiences of countries decades ago-when data quality may have been suspect-to very different countries today.

But beliefs are easier, aren't they?  Reality doesn't need to interrupt your rant.  You will be forever unencumbered by the thought process when you have beliefs..
 
2013-04-23 02:50:47 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Sabino Fuentes-Sanchez hid $25,000 all around his house because he didn't trust banks.

Stupid people do stupid things.  What is your point?


I wasn't talking about Sabino, I was talking about the person in whoeverpostedit's story. Perhaps he didn't have a bank account. More than 20% of those minority groups don't.
 
2013-04-23 02:50:59 PM  

theorellior: Debeo Summa Credo: I guess we could eliminate corporate income taxes and tax any investment gains as ordinary income taxes, thus eliminating the onerous corporate tax code and treating all income the same.

Since corporations are legal persons, I guess that moves their "ordinary" tax bracket to 35% marginal.


And they no longer get to deduct payroll.
 
2013-04-23 02:51:14 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: pdee: He could have taken it to any bank and paid no more than $5 or $10.

More than 20% of African-Americans and Hispanics do not have a bank account. Link


If he had a bank account he would have had to pay nothing.  Any bank will cash a check drawn on the us treasury for a small fee.  Thats the 5 or 10 dollars.
 
2013-04-23 02:53:28 PM  

pdee: If he had a bank account he would have had to pay nothing.  Any bank will cash a check drawn on the us treasury for a small fee.  Thats the 5 or 10 dollars.


Well if we're agreeing he didn't have a bank account, perhaps he was unaware that banks will do that for a fee. Not a stretch.

My point was that the line "he could have just done this" doesn't always apply. Sure it does, to you. But other people have other motivations, backgrounds, and obstacles. Just do something doesn't always apply.
 
2013-04-23 02:56:20 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: I guess we could eliminate corporate income taxes and tax any investment gains as ordinary income taxes, thus eliminating the onerous corporate tax code and treating all income the same.


Double taxation is a myth and you're still not getting any corporate sex.
 
2013-04-23 02:57:00 PM  

Gulper Eel: I don't like subsidies either, but the companies that got them did so through legal means. Weaselly and slimy means, but perfectly legal. Hate the game, not the player.


When the players create the game, I'm allowed to hate the players, too.
 
2013-04-23 02:57:22 PM  

maddogdelta: (All dem Marxists at the Wall Street Journal... and they point out that it is not just the spreadsheet error that says these twats are full of shiat)


Damn... fark dropped the WSJ link....   The quote is from that article..

However, Dean Baker has an interesting op-ed on the whole situation.
 
2013-04-23 02:58:07 PM  

maddogdelta: Looks closer to 24%
tenpoundsofcheese: hat is the wrong context
here is better link

soooo... you don't believe the raging socialists at Bloomberg, huh? And you want me to believe some random graph photoshopped and put on some image hosting site?


I thought a picture would be easier for you to understand.
Here is the same data from Wiki.

See chart about historic debt levels.

reality, deal with it.
 
2013-04-23 02:59:20 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Oh noes, some poor people accidentally became slightly less poor!


That was my reaction as well, but isn't EITC for poor people? So isn't the problem here is that it's going to slightly richer people?
 
2013-04-23 03:01:47 PM  
A billion here, a billion there.  Pretty soon you are talking about some real money!
 
2013-04-23 03:02:48 PM  

Gunny Walker: Lost Thought 00: Oh noes, some poor people accidentally became slightly less poor!

That was my reaction as well, but isn't EITC for poor people? So isn't the problem here is that it's going to slightly richer people?


More likely poor people without qualifying dependents.
 
2013-04-23 03:12:40 PM  

pdee: They showed us the receipt. The guy paid about $860 to cash a check during business hours in the middle of the week. He could have taken it to any bank and paid no more than $5 or $10.


that is assuming he was in good standing with the banks.
 
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