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(Politico)   The REAL reason Democrats are pushing so hard for immigration reform   (politico.com) divider line 90
    More: Obvious, Democrats, immigration reform, Hispanic voters, swing states  
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3674 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Apr 2013 at 9:36 AM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-23 10:56:30 AM

DeaH: Cythraul: Or it could be to prevent employers from taking advantage of undocumented workers (illegal immigrants). You know, making sure they have a recourse in case their employers decide to do things like, not pay them, or pay them less than what was agreed upon.

Yep, and the fact that this will also force employers to hire from a legal job market means that wages will stabilize. No more paying under market value because your workforce is too scared to do anything about it. Ironically, the average lower-middle class white person stands to benefit from this legislation, but they are against it because they don't want Mexicans to take their jobs. They don't seem to understand that Mexicans are taking their jobs because Mexicans will take a much lower wage because of their illegal status.  Give them legal status, and employers won't be able to play that game.


The only negative thing I can think of that would come from that would be higher prices for certain products, since the formerly illegal immigrant workers would then be legal and would then have a higher level of pay. But I'd rather have to pay more for my strawberries than to see them be taken advantage of.
 
2013-04-23 10:57:19 AM

Karac: JerseyTim: Politico attempting to use statistics is like Taco Bell attempting to cook French food.
- Nate Silver (@fivethirtyeight) April 23, 2013

[philadelphia.foobooz.com image 624x272]

You mean it only works in a future where there's no toilet paper and you don't get to have sex with Sandra Bullock?


Republicans will never learn how to use the three shells.
 
2013-04-23 11:01:59 AM
The only thing keeping Latinos, who  are conservative by nature, in the democratic coalition is the avalanche of insulting GOP Derp.  So keep it up, asshats!
 
2013-04-23 11:03:54 AM

JerseyTim: Karac: JerseyTim: Politico attempting to use statistics is like Taco Bell attempting to cook French food.
- Nate Silver (@fivethirtyeight) April 23, 2013

[philadelphia.foobooz.com image 624x272]

You mean it only works in a future where there's no toilet paper and you don't get to have sex with Sandra Bullock?

Republicans will never learn how to use the three shells.


encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-23 11:04:17 AM

LazarusLong42: Shostie: Rev.K: I love how, to conservatives, voter fraud isn't manipulating poll machines or casting multiple votes, it's having a large group of people vote for the other party.

It's sort of like the difference in strategy between the Protoss and the Zerg.

Or something.

I'm coming out of a cold, I'm not sure if that analogy works.

So the Republicans are zerglings, and Democrats are... photon cannons? Colossi?


No. The Mexicans are zerglings. The Republicans are pylons and the Democrats are vespene gas.

Or something.

Like I said, I'm not sure if that analogy works.
 
2013-04-23 11:04:48 AM

plewis: The only thing keeping Latinos, who  are conservative by nature, in the democratic coalition is the avalanche of insulting GOP Derp.  So keep it up, asshats!


Yeah, they're so conservative by nature, they support marriage equality, gun control, and government intervention in the economy more than the public at large does.
 
2013-04-23 11:07:45 AM

Shostie: The Republicans are pylons


Shostie: Like I said, I'm not sure if that analogy works.


Well, we already have enough Republicans, so...
 
2013-04-23 11:24:12 AM
Ah! The myth of the civic minded illegal. Yea, they came to vote.
 
2013-04-23 11:31:50 AM
We don't really need the extra votes to whip Republicans. Maybe you guys didn't notice that little tidbit yet.
 
2013-04-23 11:49:02 AM
"Immigration reform could be bonanza for Democrats"

What? Don't you like Bonanza?

x81.xanga.com
 
2013-04-23 11:50:13 AM
Since when have the dems been pushing for immigration reform? Sure the POTUS said he'd like to get it done in his 2nd term but I do not get the sense that he has actually acted on it besides encourage congress to take it up. As far as congress goes the only immigration push I am aware of is from republicans trying to rebrand. Which I am very happy to see that effort go down in flames. I think we need immigration reform but if its just to rebrand the R's its going to be a piece of shiat. When they offer something up because they think it's the right thing to do I will listen. Until then it is nothing more than political pandering and so insincere it pisses me off and I'm a white guy. I imagine it feels like someone trying to get you to be their black friend so they can feel ok with all the other racist shiat they do.
 
2013-04-23 11:52:11 AM
 
2013-04-23 12:16:56 PM
The real reason Republicans are against immigration reform is the same reason the Democrats are for immigration reform.

THEY WANT TO WIN ELECTIONS.
 
2013-04-23 12:25:32 PM

Epoch_Zero: wat


You know, the Christian-loving, anti-gay, anti-abortion stuff.  I don't agree with them, but a majority of latins are Christian and DO agree with those values.

If the GOP hadn't gone off the deep end on immigration, they'd have a lot of the latin vote.  Because the GOP are morons, they've alienated an entire segment of the voting population because of their anti-immigration stance.

We have some 10-20 million illegal immigrants in this country that are working and living among us...so we definitely need immigration reform...NOT self-deportation.
 
2013-04-23 12:27:24 PM
Well Republicans, I guess you need to evolve or die.
 
2013-04-23 12:34:01 PM

slayer199: Epoch_Zero: wat

You know, the Christian-loving, anti-gay, anti-abortion stuff.  I don't agree with them, but a majority of latins are Christian and DO agree with those values.

If the GOP hadn't gone off the deep end on immigration, they'd have a lot of the latin vote.  Because the GOP are morons, they've alienated an entire segment of the voting population because of their anti-immigration stance.

We have some 10-20 million illegal immigrants in this country that are working and living among us...so we definitely need immigration reform...NOT self-deportation.


No, they don't.

The poll also found that more Hispanics, Catholic or otherwise, support same-sex marriage than any other demographic. Sixty-three percent of self-identified Hispanics are in favor of gay marriage, compared to just 32 percent of blacks and 48 percent of whites.

Exit poll results found that about two-thirds of Hispanics (66%) said that abortion should be legal while 28% disagreed.  Among all voters, a somewhat smaller majority (59%) would allow legal abortions while 37% were opposed.

A strong majority of Latino voters - Democrats, Republicans and independents - supports stiffer gun control laws, including more vigorous background checks and creation of a national database of gun owners, according to a new survey of that increasingly important slice of the electorate.
 
2013-04-23 12:37:51 PM
Dems don't have to work hard at this - but they have to make it look like they're trying hard, politically.  If it fails, it's the Republicans fault, and Latino voters will just queue up again for the Dems.  In National elections, this works OK.  For local politics, maybe not so much, but that will change over the next few years as well, in some areas.

So Republicans lose nationally on this issue now.  If they OK immigration reform, then they don't have to deal with the realities for another 10-13 years, and while it might not move the needle that much for current elections, that's one more item they DON'T have to confront - if they gain even half a percentage point because of EVERYTHING else (ie: maybe some Hispanics will vote for Repubs because of strong Religious or business identity or won't vote for anyone because the immigration issue is off the table?), that would be pretty big in some areas.  Because, like it or not, they NEED to confront it now.  This is by FAR the easiest issue for the Dems to confront - they have been behind it for years, have supported it with gusto, and have generally enjoyed that position.
 
2013-04-23 12:42:33 PM
Obviously decades of demonizing Hispanics by Republicans was a Democratic plot.
 
2013-04-23 12:42:48 PM
Even IF they don't get to vote, it'll still be a big deal. Illegal immigrants are officially a factor in the US Census which is used for re-districting and eventually the electoral college. Some estimates show California would lose up to 5 members of Congress (thus 5 electoral votes) if we didn't include illegals in the census.

/no citation look it up yourself
 
2013-04-23 12:48:28 PM
www.gapingvoid.com

Wow, I haven't checked the Politics tab in a while but the Fark progressive Brigade is still in full swing. Keep farkin' that echo chamber my Fellow Travelers!

/Flame On!
 
2013-04-23 12:56:33 PM

Serious Black: No, they don't.

The poll also found that more Hispanics, Catholic or otherwise, support same-sex marriage than any other demographic. Sixty-three percent of self-identified Hispanics are in favor of gay marriage, compared to just 32 percent of blacks and 48 percent of whites.

Exit poll results found that about two-thirds of Hispanics (66%) said that abortion should be legal while 28% disagreed. Among all voters, a somewhat smaller majority (59%) would allow legal abortions while 37% were opposed.

A strong majority of Latino voters - Democrats, Republicans and independents - supports stiffer gun control laws, including more vigorous background checks and creation of a national database of gun owners, according to a new survey of that increasingly important slice of the electorate.


Fair enough.  They've shifted on social issues along with the rest of the country.  But hey, let the GOP keep up with their anti-immigration stance...they'll continue to shuffle off to irrelevancy.
 
2013-04-23 01:03:56 PM
Democrats don't support immigration reform so that Hispanics will vote for them. Hispanics vote for them because they support immigration reform.
 
2013-04-23 01:32:00 PM
I thought it was because immigration increases supply of working class labor, reducing wages.
 
2013-04-23 01:54:02 PM
Well DUH! Compared to the gop platform of "Why won't you beaners just self-deport before we come over there with out nightsticks and tazers drawn?", the Democrats have this.

Be ironic if the republicans then create a "Northern Strategy" to scare Northern white of "The Brown Menace".
 
2013-04-23 02:39:44 PM
Fark progressive Brigade

*bored*
 
2013-04-23 02:58:32 PM
Of course the logical progression of that thought is that Repubs are only against immigration because of the votes.

Somehow they never realize that.

/stupid thought either way
 
2013-04-23 03:11:43 PM
If that's the Democrat strategy, it's a long-term failure.
Study it out...
We bring in 30 million Latin peoples, who start voting Democrat.
Out-vote GOP in so many districts they're virtually a 3rd party status.
Conservative Latins don't really agree with Democrat politics, start their own party, La Conservativa.
Back to square one.
 
2013-04-23 03:12:58 PM
I just want to make sure I understand what this article is saying, because it's a pretty far out there proposition if you ask me.

Is this article really claiming that politicians are making decisions with the motive that they inure to their political benefit?

I sure hope they have some proof, because man, that's practically defamation.
 
2013-04-23 03:16:26 PM
And?

I just don't get this line of reasoning.  It's like the people who rail against "political correctness."  Look, Democracy is basically government by public opinion.  You try to convince people to vote for you.  That means organically figuring out what they want and trying to worm your way (deliberately and often dishonorably, sure) to a balance of messaging that makes the most people as generally satisfied as possible.

But in that sense, "political correctness" is just a reactionary measure of changing public opinion.  It's filtering language towards certain demographics so that they will not be offended.  If those demographics didn't matter, nobody would do it because there would be no net upside.  Whether or not they should be offended is immaterial -- they are, so don't do it.  You can't stick to the same messaging you did when you were trying to calcify your old majority against them, because that majority is gone.

So really, the GOP is screwed.  They've always been able to go back to the white, Christian, male, etc. base because there were always enough people there to get them 50%+1.  They could quite literally piss off every single other demographic and, as long as that strategy got more of their base to vote for them than others they drove away, they were golden.  That's what happened in 2010, but you can't just keep doing that every few years.  Eventually you run out of outrage and the math stops working.

This whining about "political correctness" just shows they still don't get it.  You're right guys!  It is political.  And it is correct -- if you want to be a majority party ever again.  Of course the Democrats want immigration reform to get votes.  That's all politicians do.  That's the system working, unless you fundamentally think these immigrants are somehow less valuable as potential future Americans than yourself, in which case you deserve all of the often clumsy claims of racism aimed your direction.

But if your only strategy to success is to try and prevent new, alienated pluralities from voting for the other guy?  You are screwed. Delaying the inevitable is not exactly an inspiring mission statement, except for that small subset of jaded fossils bitterly registering protest votes, while hoping they'll hurry up and die before they have to ever admit they screwed up.
 
2013-04-23 03:16:49 PM

ReverendJasen: If that's the Democrat strategy, it's a long-term failure.
Study it out...
We bring in 30 million Latin peoples, who start voting Democrat.
Out-vote GOP in so many districts they're virtually a 3rd party status.
Conservative Latins don't really agree with Democrat politics, start their own party, La Conservativa.
Back to square one.


The notion that Latinos are really Republicans who just need to be educated about how the Democrats are the real racists is a fantasy. They're overwhelmingly progressive on economic issues. And even on social issues, they're not as conservative as Republicans imagine. They oppose abortion, for example, for themselves, but that doesn't translate into support for the anti-choice agenda. Their attitude is, "I think abortion is wrong, so therefore I won't have one." Craziness, I know.
 
2013-04-23 06:49:10 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Doing the right thing and getting some votes out of it. Truly politics at its worst.



why is immigration reform the right thing to do?
 
2013-04-23 08:45:03 PM

DamnYankees: Yeah, liberals definitely only want it for the votes. The fact that its the right think to do is 100% irrelevant.


When one's entire world is polarized into political terms only, it's a perfectly cromulent conclusion to which one can jump. It's wrong, of course, but being wrong never stopped the politically polarized.
 
2013-04-23 08:59:23 PM
A one party political system.  It works everywhere it's tried.
 
2013-04-23 10:32:03 PM

SouthParkCon: [www.gapingvoid.com image 850x526]

Wow, I haven't checked the Politics tab in a while but the Fark progressive Brigade is still in full swing. Keep farkin' that echo chamber my Fellow Travelers!

/Flame On!


Good counterpoint. This attitude will serve conservatives well in the next few cycles, I'm sure.
 
2013-04-23 10:51:47 PM

DamnYankees: Yeah, liberals definitely only want it for the votes. The fact that its the right think to do is 100% irrelevant.


The right 'think' to do is to enforce the existing laws instead of rewarding people who broke them.
 
2013-04-23 11:00:55 PM
I'm no particular pal of the republitard party as it stands now, but I have to say I don't think this country has benefiting at all from the influx of millions of uneducated immigrants. It's great for the fast food and landscaping industry, but on the occasions  I've had to take my kids to the ER, I was the only person speaking English in the entire crowd. I was also the only one who paid, $500 for a three minute checkup and a prescription for antibiotics for an ear infection. Which my health insurance didn't cover. I realize that hospitals have to make money somehow but that did seem to be a bit of a gouge.

What I'm saying is that vast numbers of immigrants are like Walmart: society pays, in the end, even though corporations generally benefit from the cheap labor.

Speaking as an Hispanic, I honestly don't think the culture mixes well with what we consider "American". I carry alot of machismo/virgin or puta baggage with me and it's not healthy. Having said that, of course there are many positive aspects to Latin culture, which also are not really compatible with mainstream America, which is too bad.

I suppose I sound like a bigot, even though I'm hispanic. Perhaps I am. All the latino immigrants (mostly illegals) that I know work like bastards and are generally good people, although there are alot of machismo assholes.  However, that doesn't erase the fact that they tend to depress wages for American working stiffs and arent' a burden on the public sector (hospitals, schools), which is not their fault, they can't afford it. Nor is education a big priority, which hurts them more than anyone else, but is still a bad thing for society. Speaking generally.

That's pretty much the bottom line.

Seal the border, cut down on H1Bs.
 
2013-04-24 01:00:38 AM

enemy of the state: That's pretty much the bottom line.

Seal the border, cut down on H1Bs.


I noticed that you thought it was necessary to let everyone know that you're Hispanic. Not once, but twice. Good job.

As for the rest of your assesment about what immigrants will do to this country, it's bullshiat. It's the same argument racists made about Italians and the Irish years ago. That they'll drive down wages and suck up jobs and services that the "real" Americans need to survive. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. And this country survived just fine in the past and it will continue to do so in the future.

I'll also say that since you're Hispanic and here in this country, legal as you may be, you should keep in mind that the people opposed to immigration might just send you back when they run out of the undocumented people to fark with. They won't just stop with one group(undocumented), they will eventually get around to those that are here legally as well. That means you. In fact, some GOP tards have already suggested exactly that in Arizona. So either stand up for everybody, or suffer beside them in the end.

Also, for the record, if you have to tell people you "may sound like a bigot" then you most likely are.
 
2013-04-24 03:22:34 AM

DamnYankees: Yeah, liberals definitely only want it for the votes. The fact that its the right think to do is 100% irrelevant.


Well, it is 100% irrelevant.

Otherwise, why would the GOP oppose it?
 
2013-04-24 03:25:53 AM

Lando Lincoln: We don't really need the extra votes to whip Republicans. Maybe you guys didn't notice that little tidbit yet.


Unfortunately, we do kind of need it in local elections, as for FSM's sake Democrats don't come out to vote in them, and it's the only reason the GOP isn't already a regional party. Even VA would be solid-blue if everyone voted at the same rate as old Republicans.
 
2013-04-24 11:25:32 AM

enemy of the state: I'm no particular pal of the republitard party as it stands now, but I have to say I don't think this country has benefiting at all from the influx of millions of uneducated immigrants. It's great for the fast food and landscaping industry, but on the occasions  I've had to take my kids to the ER, I was the only person speaking English in the entire crowd. I was also the only one who paid, $500 for a three minute checkup and a prescription for antibiotics for an ear infection. Which my health insurance didn't cover. I realize that hospitals have to make money somehow but that did seem to be a bit of a gouge.

What I'm saying is that vast numbers of immigrants are like Walmart: society pays, in the end, even though corporations generally benefit from the cheap labor.

Speaking as an Hispanic, I honestly don't think the culture mixes well with what we consider "American". I carry alot of machismo/virgin or puta baggage with me and it's not healthy. Having said that, of course there are many positive aspects to Latin culture, which also are not really compatible with mainstream America, which is too bad.

I suppose I sound like a bigot, even though I'm hispanic. Perhaps I am. All the latino immigrants (mostly illegals) that I know work like bastards and are generally good people, although there are alot of machismo assholes.  However, that doesn't erase the fact that they tend to depress wages for American working stiffs and arent' a burden on the public sector (hospitals, schools), which is not their fault, they can't afford it. Nor is education a big priority, which hurts them more than anyone else, but is still a bad thing for society. Speaking generally.

That's pretty much the bottom line.

Seal the border, cut down on H1Bs.


Sadly, you're gonna end up on some ultralib's ignore list even though what you've said is true.
 
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