FARK.com: (771303) Call it supply-side enviromentalism

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(Florida Today)		Call it supply-side enviromentalism (floridatoday.com)		383
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9855 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2003 at 6:07 PM | Favorite | share:

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TunaRevenge		2003-12-28 08:03:29 PM

TunaRevenge:

I agree with what you just wrote. On the other hand, I think that the left has been far from honest when discussing the environmental situation.

There are sensible environmental policies which could over time clean up the air, water, and ground, but the left seems only willing to support extreme measures that will cause irreparable harm to the economy and will have little or no effect on global pollution.

I'm not saying that I support the proposed free market trading of endangered animals; I simply don't have enough information.

The lack of information is reason enough to err on the side of caution. The Earth doesn't have a reset button. So if we do something which causes irreparable harm, then we've screwed ourselves. (Darwin would be proud.)

Those in industry who wish to exploit the planet for all it's worth and dump the responsibility for the consequences on future generations are just as extreme in their views as any 'left' environmentalist. Essentially what they are doing is dumping the cost of environmental protection onto others in the form of cleanup, remediation, and healthcare costs. If they had to pay these costs instead of the taxpayer, then I bet they would suddenly turn 'green' as well.

pacifisticradical		2003-12-28 08:04:29 PM

all i could think of was "terrorist stock market"

ChiGuy		2003-12-28 08:04:52 PM

Virg, You have scientific theories on your side.

I have scientific fact. Life survived a doomsday meteor that completly destroyed entire ecosystems, wiped out the dominant species, and blocked out the sun, for months.
Its gonna take a lot more than missing mosquitoes, or even our technological infancy to wipe out all life.

lastdinosaur		2003-12-28 08:09:44 PM

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (King James Bible, Genesis)

We can do whatever we want, because God has given us dominion over the animals. We rule them, and if we choose to get rid of a species... that's our right.

virgosnake		2003-12-28 08:11:53 PM

Sure, there would still be organisms living near the vents in the ocean floor. And maybe some other life would hang on. But there's a big difference between losing the dominant species and losing those that all animals depending on for food and whose carcasses and excrement make living soil and then there's the millions of plant species that rely on them for procreation etc. Your fact proves my point: that humans (being the most dominant of all species) could disappear and life would flourish. Take away insects... bye bye.

TunaRevenge		2003-12-28 08:11:57 PM

I have scientific fact. Life survived a doomsday meteor that completly destroyed entire ecosystems, wiped out the dominant species, and blocked out the sun, for months.
Its gonna take a lot more than missing mosquitoes, or even our technological infancy to wipe out all life.

Our negligence only has to wipe out one species to be significant -- Homosapiens.

ChiGuy		2003-12-28 08:12:08 PM

lastdinosaur. If Jesus told you to jump off a bridge would you?

SanchezSucio		2003-12-28 08:15:32 PM

Let's have an endangered species cookout. I want to try elephant, wait I want to try that SouthPacific tribesman. Still tastes like chicken

ChiGuy		2003-12-28 08:17:01 PM

Our negligence only has to wipe out one species to be significant -- Homosapiens.

Heres the real killer (no pun intended)
Our negligence and our persaveriance add equally to the threat of our extinction... think about it.

entropyblues		2003-12-28 08:17:19 PM

We can do whatever we want, because God has given us dominion over the animals. We rule them, and if we choose to get rid of a species... that's our right.

Sooo... I.... Hmmm...The thing is... Uhhh...

I don't quite know what to say. You... You do realize it's just a book right?

berylman		2003-12-28 08:17:21 PM

1:26 And Men said, Let us make God in our image, after our likeness: and let it justify our dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Pxtl		2003-12-28 08:18:11 PM

Been waiting to use this.

virgosnake		2003-12-28 08:18:33 PM

If Jesus told me to jump off a bridge, I'd shiat my pants. And quit drinking forever.

entropyblues		2003-12-28 08:18:50 PM

Because, you know, The King James Bible is the only one Satan hasn't messed with.

Or so says Jack Chick.

robotninja		2003-12-28 08:20:58 PM

Im not for xenocide, or destruction.

Or apostrophes.

lastdinosaur		2003-12-28 08:24:10 PM

entropyblues - Last thing is remember Yahshua Messiah is YOUR Savior ! You won't still be perfect! None of US are! Our Heavenly Father is the ONLY perfect one. But that is why he is called Savior! If we didn't ever sin ,we wouldn't need a savior. Not to say you purposely sin ! Heaven forbid!

The Devil wants your company on his road to hell, he's tricked you into thinking that his evil is pleasures, like the beguiling of Eve in the garden, no new tricks here, he just gives it a new spin for the generation he is deceiving.

Yes, he wants you to join him on his trip, the train to hell, the damnation train has no way out, for it is the eternal damnation train full of tortures, the devil just wants you to think that is the pleasure train, he wants you to join him on his road through eternal hell, for there are many steps down, for torture has no limit in hell, there is no water in hell, no thirst quenched in hell, temperatures of boiling hot lava, that have no relief, for the heat of hell knows no bounds, and the devil wants company, for he knows his days are numbered, for his time is running out, so he is stepping up his recruiting tactics, luring, enticing the eyes with the lust that blinds the eyes of man and woman, teenagers!

I'm a Sabbath-Keeper, NOT a Seventh-Day Adventist.

virgosnake		2003-12-28 08:24:35 PM

Pxtl: where ya get that turd? I thought cow patties were big round puddles. But I guess the political organization in question is not big on versimilitude. Ooh big word. That felt good.

pastorsteve		2003-12-28 08:25:13 PM

2003-12-28 06:23:12 PM The Symbol

Don't comment if you're ignorant about the issues.
I was a fireman for 6 years and Clear felling IS good for the forest. California wouldn't have been in HALF the trouble if this were done earlier.

And yes, we DID liberate the Iraqi's. 95% of them LIKE that we're there.
Seek the news, don't just get bottle fed by it.

Ummm, no. Clear felling is not good for forests as it removes them. If we want to manage forests we need to remove only mature (and mostly dead trees.) Of course this is too labor-intensive for slash-and-burn lumbering companies feeding an unchecked lumber market. See the work of Mennonites in Wisconsin, they get more good lumber from forests under their management than lumber companies get with clear-cutting. Read Wendell Berry for more info.

Also, 95% of Iraqis are not happy we came. The number (according to all polls) is less than half. Of course, this is a people who have learned from decades of oppression to cheer for whoever has the guns . . . or else.

Think about the news. Don't just make it up to suit your close-mindedness.

entropyblues		2003-12-28 08:30:48 PM

LastDinosaur

Please. Please. Please.
Do not ever speak to me directly again.

LUPA		2003-12-28 08:32:41 PM

Why can't this thread be about the article? For example:

"If someone's coming back from the airport with a stuffed (sea turtle) shell, where's the geneticist?"

In my pants, obviously.

See? We don't have to bicker and moan.

ChiGuy		2003-12-28 08:33:05 PM

Democrats and Republicans alike can officially unite under the pretext of using lastdinosaur as a figureitve chewtoy.

lastdinosaur		2003-12-28 08:33:08 PM

You have Only now to make your reservations for Heaven bound or Hell bound! Call upon the name of Yahshua Messiah and thou and thy household that calls upon the name of Yahshua shalt be saved!
!!!

ChiGuy		2003-12-28 08:37:15 PM

Yahshua Messiah! Gesundheit!

by the way sign me up for all that fire and brimstone hell crap you were rambling about. I love red hot magma.

Weaver95		2003-12-28 08:37:19 PM

[...for torture has no limit in hell, there is no water in hell, no thirst quenched in hell, temperatures of boiling hot lava, that have no relief, for the heat of hell knows no bounds...]

You know, i've always been stumped by this one. If hell is a spiritual place and thus devoid the physical - they why would boiling lava be a problem? That's a phyical torture (albeit a brief one considering the temperature of melted rock!). The same goes for thirst, whipping posts, ect ect - those are all *physical* tortures and, presumably, would have little effect on a spirit.

Meh. forgive my metaphysical digression. please return to your flamewar.

lastdinosaur		2003-12-28 08:39:56 PM

Weaver95 - REPENT NOW

lastdinosaur		2003-12-28 08:41:06 PM

ChiGuy		2003-12-28 08:41:50 PM

dont do it Weaver95, think of the red hot magma!

Weaver95		2003-12-28 08:43:13 PM

[Weaver95 - REPENT NOW]

First I'm condemned to hell by the likes of emperor jay. Now i'm being condemned to hell by lastdinosaur.

Hmm. somehow I managed to annoy both sides of the aisle. I'm thinking that's a worth achievement.

Tinian		2003-12-28 08:43:17 PM

The perfect use of the

tag:

A bunch of Darwin worshippers biatching about species becoming extinct.

(Well,

works too.)

LUPA		2003-12-28 08:43:36 PM

Weaver95: Hell must be something like the Matrix, where a soul is forced to accept images foisted upon it as its reality. You know, otherwise there would be no way to continuously burn someone with hot molten lava.

/yes, I'm a mouth-breather

ChiGuy		2003-12-28 08:43:53 PM

What the hell is that? the Latrine to hell? I thought we got to ride in a train disquised as pleasure.

ChiGuy		2003-12-28 08:45:51 PM

Just for the record, lastdinosaur, i repented at 6:57:05 pm on this very thread. so dont even think about it.

Weaver95		2003-12-28 08:46:48 PM

[Hell must be something like the Matrix, where a soul is forced to accept images foisted upon it as its reality. You know, otherwise there would be no way to continuously burn someone with hot molten lava.]

well...that might work I guess. I just have a problem with physical tortures being effective on a spiritual plane of existence.

All of which ignores the fundimental flaw in lastdinosaur's inital statement - fear isn't the way that Christ espoused as the way to salvation. He said Love was the key to the kingdom of heaven.

ChiGuy		2003-12-28 08:50:07 PM

Wait Weav.... lastdinosaur is promoting heaven? oh... cuz he was making hell sound really cool.

Xtremehkr		2003-12-28 08:52:20 PM

lastdinosaur

Fark Noah and his Ark huh?

Or is this yet another contradiction that shows you can find anything you like in the bible.

virgosnake		2003-12-28 08:52:34 PM

I personally believe if Jesus were here today he would set on all flamers masquerading as evangelical Christians on all message boards everywhere.

LUPA		2003-12-28 08:53:24 PM

Tinian: 10 points for correct use of 'Ironic'!

except, as a side note, you can be a 'darwinist', ie believing in 'survival of the fittest' as an ongoing force in the game of evolution, but it doesn't make you a supporter or promoter, necessarily, of this force. Richard Dawkins touches on this briefly in "The Selfish Gene", in that as a human, he can choose to make humanitarian choices, against the grain of our genetic motivations - and that largely, any greatness we have as a species comes from these humanist impulses.

I'm paraphrasing, of course. But just wanted to point out that "Darwinist" has an odd twist as a philosophical category.

/boring lecture

TheProtong		2003-12-28 08:54:07 PM

This flamewar seems to have taken a detour, what with all of lastdinosaur's goofball rants.

Carry on!

Xtremehkr		2003-12-28 08:54:36 PM

Tinian

Nice interpretation, it's almost as silly as one of God's creatures calling for the death of God's other creatures.

entropyblues		2003-12-28 08:55:37 PM

I'm confused... is LastDinosaur being serious, or is he trolling? I was pretty sure he meant it until that picture of a toilet. Or is he saying that hell is like a gas station bathroom?

kr0m0z0ne		2003-12-28 08:55:52 PM

Don't feel too good about yourself virgosnake, you misspelled it.

Weaver95		2003-12-28 08:57:15 PM

[Or is he saying that hell is like a gas station bathroom?]

wow....now THAT's a description I could have done without.

entropyblues		2003-12-28 08:58:48 PM

See, Weave, A gas station bathroom would punish your metaphysical being too, so that negates your argument about lava and such.

cometboy		2003-12-28 09:00:12 PM

A bunch of Darwin worshippers biatching about species becoming extinct.

yeah, they're becoming extinct, but not naturally. at the hands of men. the way of the buffalo, as they say. and we know who killed the buffalo. whitey.

Tinian		2003-12-28 09:01:32 PM

LUPA

If you look deep enough into any "altruistic" human behavior, you'll find that it isn't.

Weaver95		2003-12-28 09:01:37 PM

[See, Weave, A gas station bathroom would punish your metaphysical being too, so that negates your argument about lava and such.]

Oh I don't know...I think sight gags would still nail you pretty good. Having recently had an unpleasant experience in a gas station bathroom, I merely object to the reminder. In no way was that meant to relate back to my previous question concerning the ambient temperature of Hell.

There. Hopefully that clears things up a bit!

virgosnake		2003-12-28 09:02:28 PM

krOmOzOne: Thanks! I was wondering if anyone read my posts. That's worthy of an ironic tag. Misspelling verisimilitude.

entropyblues		2003-12-28 09:03:45 PM

Well, I'm back to square one. About Hell that is.

Weaver95		2003-12-28 09:04:35 PM

Offered into evidence concerning Hell's ambient temperature:

[The following is an actual question given on a McGill University chemistry mid-term Exam paper:
Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Support your answer with a proof

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyles Law (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So, we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that most people and their souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.
Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyles Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities.

If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Celine LeBlanc during my Freshman year - that "it will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you" - and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then (2) cannot be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic.

The student got the only A!

Google is a GOOD thing!

Tinian		2003-12-28 09:05:41 PM

cometboy

yeah, they're becoming extinct, but not naturally. at the hands of men. the way of the buffalo, as they say. and we know who killed the buffalo. whitey.

Who killed the wooly mammoths?

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