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(Salon)   Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. ... Was Islam. That was easy   (salon.com) divider line 400
    More: Obvious, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Islam, Dzhokhar, Tamerlan  
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23981 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2013 at 10:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-23 08:17:24 AM  
Convert or die.
 
2013-04-23 08:23:43 AM  
Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.
 
2013-04-23 08:24:27 AM  
So it was Islam, ostensibly.  Big frickin deal, that's nothing new.
 
2013-04-23 08:25:26 AM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Convert or die.




I won't do it, I won't covert to Christianity.
 
2013-04-23 08:31:16 AM  
Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion
 
2013-04-23 08:35:55 AM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".
 
2013-04-23 08:40:24 AM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


Basically most people who are a new convert to something, be it religion, vegetarianism, exercise regime.  They go full bore into it as if it's the most wondrous thing since sliced deities.  They want to make sure you know about it, and get all offended if you're not as excited about their epiphany as they are.
 
2013-04-23 08:43:40 AM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


Yeah, as much as I like to browbeat Christianity about the Catholic Church being a kleptocratic corporation and Protestant evangelicals trying to turn the clock back 100 years in the southeast and inspire theocratic feudalism in parts of Africa, not every Christian is contributing to the obstruction of societal progress.  I'm totally cool with Quakers.
 
2013-04-23 08:46:50 AM  
img543.imageshack.us
 
2013-04-23 08:49:52 AM  
If you want to send a message, shouldn't you...um...send a message?
 
2013-04-23 08:58:11 AM  

UNC_Samurai: I'm totally cool with Quakers.




I don't trust the Quakers: they gave us Nixon.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-04-23 09:27:38 AM  
Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.
 
2013-04-23 09:29:19 AM  
So, a self taught nutjob...

Well, better than an organized one, would have been a higher death toll
 
2013-04-23 09:35:59 AM  

vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.


Well that's what I'm getting at with "message."  The reasons behind his attacks were either intuitively clear (abortion clinics) or he provided a reason.

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-04-23 09:38:09 AM  
Diogenes:

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

How effective was he?  Opposition to gays was part of his motive, but look how well that worked out for him.
 
2013-04-23 09:48:06 AM  

vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.


Then one frightful post Boston bombing morn
Anti-Christians came to say
Rudolph with your Christian terrorism
Won't you falsely equate to Islam?

Then all those haters loved him
And they shouted out with glee
Eric Rudolph, you will go down as Christianity's greatest monster!
 
2013-04-23 09:49:50 AM  

vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.


i've been saying this for days. the whole thing seems like a replay of atlanta. and rudolph is a christian terrorist, just as these guys seem to be islamic terrorists.

bottom line: they're bad people doing bad things for bad reasons. fark ALL of them.
 
2013-04-23 09:50:42 AM  
 
2013-04-23 10:04:06 AM  
So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

t0.gstatic.com
crow202.org

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.
 
2013-04-23 10:09:12 AM  

miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

[t0.gstatic.com image 231x218]
[crow202.org image 460x295]

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.


Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree.  Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc.  But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.
 
2013-04-23 10:13:41 AM  
"Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.
 
2013-04-23 10:14:04 AM  
That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.
 
2013-04-23 10:15:30 AM  
Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?
 
2013-04-23 10:15:44 AM  
Nope. Still think Islam had about as much to do with the plot as to whether or not they were "real 'Murcans".
 
2013-04-23 10:16:03 AM  

Diogenes: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

[t0.gstatic.com image 231x218]
[crow202.org image 460x295]

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree.  Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc.  But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.


Nothing boosts recruitment like a holy war. (whether real or perceived, I suppose)
 
2013-04-23 10:16:55 AM  
But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.
 
2013-04-23 10:18:52 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.


You're removing a gigantic variable from the equation of world history and pretending there's no way it would have made a difference.

These guys might not have even been BORN if Islam didn't exist.  The removal of Islam from history could create a major paradox, destroying life as we know it.  If we were lucky, the damage would only be limited to this solar system.

Start thinking 4th-dimensionally.
 
2013-04-23 10:19:52 AM  

mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.


On that subject (and risking bringing the gun-nuts in), didja ever notice that the blame game on stuff like metal, rap, D&D, videogames, teh ghey, etc. for school shootings et al came after the 2nd Amendment uber-alles nuts came into power in the NRA?  Or, in other words, "blame everything but the guns"?

Well, we've come full circle. Now that we're actually looking at what caused stuff, and how to prevent it, the gun nuts just look silly when they say "Oh, I'm sure it's the videogames that made Adam Lamza crazy." Just like they would if they said "Y'know, I'm sure gay marriage had something to do with pushing Tamerlan Tsarnaev off the deep end."

/Not that it's stopping them, mind you.
 
2013-04-23 10:19:58 AM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


You are unfit for fark. Don't think, just jerk your knees, is the way to go here.
 
2013-04-23 10:20:08 AM  
Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.
 
2013-04-23 10:21:59 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.


well...?

most religion is evil. islam just happens to be the worst one at this point in history.

/not saying most muslims are evil
//just that some of the most brutal, heinous crimes in the past 20 years, from 9/11 to so-called "honor killings,"  have been committed in its name
 
2013-04-23 10:22:35 AM  

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


...have you ever seen what happens to someone falsely accused of pedophilia?

...have you ever seen what happens to anyone who dares defend anyone accused of pedophilia?

...have you ever seen what happens to the innocent neighbors of anyone who dares defend anyone accused of pedophilia?

Now replace Islam with pedophilia, and you've got a glimpse.  And the vengeance vulturing is even worse when they're right, as the Penn State affair can attest to.
 
2013-04-23 10:22:39 AM  
About Islam and turkeys:  Just in case we have some Muslim farkers on here, isn't turkey considered halal so long as the bird is slaughtered in accordance with religious rules?
 
2013-04-23 10:23:21 AM  
I'm hearing a lot of officials saying, pretty early in the investigation, that they were acting alone, and no, I don't give much credibility to the younger brother's statement at this point. Have they honestly ruled out the older brother using his overseas trip for terrorist training? I thought that was a major facet of the investigation.
 
2013-04-23 10:24:32 AM  

Magorn: While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.


Usually people like that backpack across Europe or take up drinking; he decided to blow up people. I don't think this was simply an existential crisis, he obviously had some greater motive and meant to send a message, regardless of how nonsensical or twisted that message may be.
 
2013-04-23 10:24:33 AM  
Yeah, sure, blame the dead guy.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-23 10:24:51 AM  
He was charged Monday with "using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction."

Really?  Is he a wizard?  The law of conservation of mass says that mass cannot be destroyed.
 
2013-04-23 10:24:52 AM  

dv-ous: Yeah, sure, blame the dead guy.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 246x400]


tamerlane?
 
2013-04-23 10:24:53 AM  

Diogenes: vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.

Well that's what I'm getting at with "message."  The reasons behind his attacks were either intuitively clear (abortion clinics) or he provided a reason.

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.


My guess for a while was that he was panning a series fo bombings in major cities over the next few months that was going to be capped with a statement along the lines of "See? this is how it feels to live in Chechneya EVERY DAY for average Chechens and you Americans aren't lifting a finger to help"

But I may be giving him WAAAAY to much credit for rational planning and coherent messaging
 
2013-04-23 10:25:25 AM  

miss diminutive: Magorn: While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Usually people like that backpack across Europe or take up drinking; he decided to blow up people. I don't think this was simply an existential crisis, he obviously had some greater motive and meant to send a message, regardless of how nonsensical or twisted that message may be.


"I'm going to make you hurt like I hurt, and experience sadness like I experience sadness."

?
 
2013-04-23 10:25:50 AM  
It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.
 
2013-04-23 10:27:02 AM  
farm5.staticflickr.com

Defend?

So it was a preemptive counterattack?
That's mighty forward thinking for a backwards thinking culture.
 
2013-04-23 10:27:22 AM  
Eric Rudolph was a Self-Radicalized Christian.  On this point at least, they are the same.
 
2013-04-23 10:28:22 AM  

FlashHarry: dv-ous: Yeah, sure, blame the dead guy.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 246x400]

tamerlane?


Yup. (See image name.)

If dude have been named "Khan" we'd be making with the Ghengis jokes for sure.

<zoidbergvoice> Why not Tamerlane? </zoidbergvoice>
 
2013-04-23 10:28:39 AM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity.


Sounds about right.  A majority of Christians believe that WBC should legally be allowed to do what they do.
 
2013-04-23 10:28:59 AM  

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.


...or a federal building.
 
2013-04-23 10:29:20 AM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


I'm in no way taking sides with Westboro, but exactly how many people have they blown up?
 
2013-04-23 10:29:29 AM  
Salon puts this right at the top of the story:

CNN - which erroneously reported Wednesday that an arrest in the case had been made -  cited a U.S. government source.

They take a snarky shot at CNN's credibility, then aggregate their latest scoop. Salon is a whore.
 
2013-04-23 10:29:35 AM  
It's important to protect Islam from people who are trying to run far!
 
2013-04-23 10:30:26 AM  

Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.


I think his uncle's description was best.  He was a loser, and did what many men in their twenties who are losers do - resorted to violence.
 
2013-04-23 10:30:41 AM  
Religion of Peace™
 
2013-04-23 10:31:43 AM  

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


Because only Christians, whites and gun owners can be denigrated by the media. It's in their handbook.
 
2013-04-23 10:31:59 AM  
Apparently, all it takes to go from average nightclubbing, Boxing, drinking cafeteria muslim to mass murdering nutbird is for someone to make fun of the pom-pom on your hat.
 
2013-04-23 10:32:09 AM  

miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.



I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.
 
2013-04-23 10:33:04 AM  

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.


They had some pretty good radical Muslim role models to follow.

If he was Democrat he would have blown up a corporation. Right?
 
2013-04-23 10:33:18 AM  

miss diminutive: Magorn: While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Usually people like that backpack across Europe or take up drinking; he decided to blow up people. I don't think this was simply an existential crisis, he obviously had some greater motive and meant to send a message, regardless of how nonsensical or twisted that message may be.


He sorta did that by going on a visit to the ancestral homeland (note he never actually LIVED in Chechnya, like many ethnic Chechens he actually lived in Dagestan-where Stalin more or less transported the whole country as punishment for an earlier rebellion).  Once there, he saw the devastation of a VERY nasty 7 year war that the Russians fought with thier usual grim efficency and disregard for civillian casualties, and sort latched on to "The cause" as his new purpose.   It's not unlike what happened to many Americans of Irish extraction who visited Ireland during "the troubles" and came back ranting about "the Cause" and supporting Sinn Fein's fundraising efforts (looking at YOU here Rep. Peter King)
 
2013-04-23 10:34:10 AM  
 
2013-04-23 10:34:58 AM  

FLMountainMan: Sounds about right. A majority of Christians believe that WBC should legally be allowed to do what they do.


To be fair, the WBC doesn't actually murder people.  Annoying as all get out, but not murderers.
 
2013-04-23 10:35:02 AM  

JNowe: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.


I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.


Well... he encouraged a lot of non-Muslism to be seen defending Islam. Not the same thing.

/Cynicism.
 
2013-04-23 10:35:14 AM  
So they received no outside help, yet they were both unemployed, one was a student, and they had a house AND an apartment?
 
2013-04-23 10:35:14 AM  

fireclown: About Islam and turkeys:  Just in case we have some Muslim farkers on here, isn't turkey considered halal so long as the bird is slaughtered in accordance with religious rules?


I can't really speak for Islam, but I once attended a lecture about Jews celebrating Thanksgiving - the central question is "Is Thanksgiving a religious holiday?" If so, there may be a problem with observing another religion's holiday (the chief method of "observing" this particular holiday being the bird and cranberries and stuffing and gravy and pumpkin pie and hot cocoa and pecan pie and *drool*

// spoiler alert: the lecture ended with "it's not really a religious holiday, but if being thankful on the 4th Thursday of November makes you uncomfortable, skip the turkey dinner"
 
2013-04-23 10:35:43 AM  

JNowe: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.


Well, the last time there was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists on American soil where civilians died the US soon became embroiled in two costly, long-lasting, bloody conflicts. A call for perspective and rational action isn't completely unwarranted.
 
2013-04-23 10:36:21 AM  

Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.


Quoting this because it's a thing that should be quoted. Something shiatty happened in this guy's life that flipped the switch from good to ear-twitchingly bazoo. Allah was a front-seat passenger on the road to crazy, he picked the radio station but he wasn't driving.
 
2013-04-23 10:36:55 AM  

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.
I've known hijab-wearing Muslims who were very faithful, but, like most major religions, believe in loving one another and being respectful to other faiths. It's those that use their religion as an excuse to hate that are the problem, whatever their faith.
 
2013-04-23 10:37:17 AM  

JNowe: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.


I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.


Yeah, but those are the ones incapable of doing anything other than talking, so it's cool.
 
2013-04-23 10:37:18 AM  
We all know that the best defense is a good offense, right guys?
 
2013-04-23 10:37:27 AM  

Wendy's Chili: Meanwhile, Muslims foiled yet another terror plot.


That's what makes it seem so clear the Boston bombers acted alone. If they'd been hooked up with Al Qaeda, the FBI would have been listening in on all their conference calls, and offering to provide them the bombs.
 
2013-04-23 10:39:12 AM  

another cultural observer: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

You're removing a gigantic variable from the equation of world history and pretending there's no way it would have made a difference.

These guys might not have even been BORN if Islam didn't exist.  The removal of Islam from history could create a major paradox, destroying life as we know it.  If we were lucky, the damage would only be limited to this solar system.

Start thinking 4th-dimensionally.


SHIAT!  Is it too late to take it back?  I'd be sad if we lost this solar system, but even more sad about the galaxy, since those people from Area 51 seemed so nice before they crashed and we cut them all up.
 
2013-04-23 10:40:48 AM  
But David Axelrod and CNN told me it was Tea Partiers.  What happened?
 
2013-04-23 10:41:23 AM  
I can't believe this!! IF these dudes were brown, there would be no doubt in anybodys mind that this was a Islamist Jihadist attack, but now that these dudes are white everybody seems to be making up excuses on how this could happen to anybody. Yes! this is a muslim terrorist attack. Muslims come in all colors. Does everybody realize that there are a lotta yellow muslims as well (eg. Indonesia), so if you see an attack from an Asian looking muslim extremist - is that gonna confuse the hell outta everybody again? It's the religion - it's not the color of their skin.
 
2013-04-23 10:42:29 AM  

Diogenes: Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.


Whether they were poor representatives depends upon how representative they were.
They were poor at public relations. Or were they?
 
2013-04-23 10:43:12 AM  

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

Most Americans still don't know anything about Muslims aside from news stories like this and what they're told by Nationalistic websites. Ask any Islamic American who was here at the time how their lives were changed by 9/11, and you would have been praying Boston was unrelated too.
 
2013-04-23 10:44:27 AM  

FlashHarry: //just that some of the most brutal, heinous crimes in the past 20 years, from 9/11 to so-called "honor killings,"  have been committed in its name


I don't disagree.  But just for one second pretending people didn't invest their values in (their interpretation of) religious rules, some people, probably the same amount that we've been seeing lately, would still find a way to justify horrible actions.  Locally, antigovernment militias and their outcasts have been pretty quiet, but we'll hear from them again.
 
2013-04-23 10:44:28 AM  

Magorn: Diogenes: vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.

Well that's what I'm getting at with "message."  The reasons behind his attacks were either intuitively clear (abortion clinics) or he provided a reason.

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

My guess for a while was that he was panning a series fo bombings in major cities over the next few months that was going to be capped with a statement along the lines of "See? this is how it feels to live in Chechneya EVERY DAY for average Chechens and you Americans aren't lifting a finger to help"

But I may be giving him WAAAAY to much credit for rational planning and coherent messaging


Certainly conceivable.  But their behavior after the fact doesn't make much sense.  Trying to hide in plain sight?  Robbing a convenience store?  Thank goodness for sloppy criminals and terrorists.
 
2013-04-23 10:45:10 AM  

WelldeadLink: Diogenes: Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

Whether they were poor representatives depends upon how representative they were.
They were poor at public relations. Or were they?


I wonder who's doing more work to define the message - them or us.
 
2013-04-23 10:45:50 AM  

another cultural observer: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

You're removing a gigantic variable from the equation of world history and pretending there's no way it would have made a difference.

These guys might not have even been BORN if Islam didn't exist.  The removal of Islam from history could create a major paradox, destroying life as we know it.  If we were lucky, the damage would only be limited to this solar system.

Start thinking 4th-dimensionally.


If your parents (or anyones) were interrupted by a marketing phone call, or a TV episode was better than normal (or worse) so they went to bed at a different time the night you were conceived, it is very likely a different sperm would have fertilized the egg (or it might not have happened at all), and thus you would have ~25% different genes to what you actually ended up with (including a 50% chance of being a different gender), which would have fundamentally changed many millions of decisions and events that happened to you since then, and thus it is hard to say "you" would exist at all.
 
2013-04-23 10:46:34 AM  
Oh look. Muslims blowing up innocent people in the name of their religion. I'm shocked, SHOCKED.

/Not really
//Nuke'em all!
 
2013-04-23 10:46:54 AM  
Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.
 
2013-04-23 10:47:18 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: another cultural observer: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

You're removing a gigantic variable from the equation of world history and pretending there's no way it would have made a difference.

These guys might not have even been BORN if Islam didn't exist.  The removal of Islam from history could create a major paradox, destroying life as we know it.  If we were lucky, the damage would only be limited to this solar system.

Start thinking 4th-dimensionally.

SHIAT!  Is it too late to take it back?  I'd be sad if we lost this solar system, but even more sad about the galaxy, since those people from Area 51 seemed so nice before they crashed and we cut them all up.


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-23 10:47:51 AM  

Diogenes: Magorn: Diogenes: vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.

Well that's what I'm getting at with "message."  The reasons behind his attacks were either intuitively clear (abortion clinics) or he provided a reason.

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

My guess for a while was that he was panning a series fo bombings in major cities over the next few months that was going to be capped with a statement along the lines of "See? this is how it feels to live in Chechneya EVERY DAY for average Chechens and you Americans aren't lifting a finger to help"

But I may be giving him WAAAAY to much credit for rational planning and coherent messaging

Certainly conceivable.  But their behavior after the fact doesn't make much sense.  Trying to hide in plain sight?  Robbing a convenience store?  Thank goodness for sloppy criminals and terrorists.


Without the cameras of our "surveillance state" these guys would still be on the loose planning step 2.  Serious ying/yang issues there regarding the proliferation of cameras.
 
2013-04-23 10:49:21 AM  
"Convert now... or fall forever."

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-04-23 10:49:25 AM  

Robert1966: So they received no outside help, yet they were both unemployed, one was a student, and they had a house AND an apartment?


And multiple vehicles...
 
2013-04-23 10:50:02 AM  

nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".


All very, very good points. Of course, what you eventually realize, once your span of conceptualization becomes sufficiently encompassing, is that "Us vs. Them. (and they are evi-i-i-i-i-l-l-l-l-l-!...)" is part and parcel of enabling top-heavy, self-serving, over-spending, responsibility-shirking, heavy-handed national governments, and ours is a prime example.
 
2013-04-23 10:50:30 AM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?


No news to ban it. Just slap a warning label on it.
 
2013-04-23 10:50:32 AM  

Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.


Consider yourself Favorited. And  great deal of respect on your cool minded very Post. I concur wholeheartedly.
 
2013-04-23 10:50:32 AM  

advex101: Without the cameras of our "surveillance state" these guys would still be on the loose planning step 2. Serious ying/yang issues there regarding the proliferation of cameras.


Except it was private cameras that identified them, not public CCTV, not some federally mandated black box on our cars that rats on us, etc.  Surveillance state is bad.  Forcing people to incriminate themselves with their own footage is bad.  A store volunteering their security tape to identify the bomber is not bad.
 
2013-04-23 10:50:59 AM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


The problem is that Islam wasn't just the channel that these hateful idiots used to outlet their insanity. Islam amplified their hatred and insanity.
 
2013-04-23 10:51:10 AM  
Why do I have the feeling that the people who REALLY care that Islam was the motivation for these bombs are the same people who complain that hate crime laws criminalize thought?

Did they suddenly realize that motive is important in criminal cases, or are they just bigots trying to excuse certain types of hate crime?
 
2013-04-23 10:51:12 AM  
Preliminary interviews with Dzhokhar Tsarnaev indicate the two brothers fit the classification of self-radicalized jihadists, the source said. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, wounded and held in a Boston hospital, said his brother wanted to defend Islam from attack, according to the source.

...by making people want to attack it?

/religious thought is nonsensical
//batshiat insane fundamentalist thought even more so
 
2013-04-23 10:51:13 AM  

Mrbogey: Robert1966: So they received no outside help, yet they were both unemployed, one was a student, and they had a house AND an apartment?

And multiple vehicles...


millions of latino immigrants are technically unemployed but work every day and have all the things that you list above.
 
2013-04-23 10:51:18 AM  
I'm not saying it was Islam... but it was Islam.
 
2013-04-23 10:51:36 AM  
1. Sounds like the older brother was an arrogant jerkwad before he got religion, and after he got religion, just like usually happens. Only difference is afterwards he pretends he's on a Mission from God.

(Worst. Blues Brothers. Sequel. Ever.)

2. With little brother a.) claiming he was led by his big brother, and b.) being a photogenic skinny young guy with lots of curly brown hair who's c.) lying wounded in a hospital bed and d.) on his way to life in prison at least and a Federal death sentence at most, I bet the flood of letters from the usual horde of lonely batshiat-crazy desperate 40ish single women who think they can "save" him through the power of troooo luuuuurve has already started.

So what's the over/under on a prison marriage? I'm thinking the first anniversary, plus or minus a week or two.
 
2013-04-23 10:52:06 AM  

xria: another cultural observer:


images3.wikia.nocookie.net

Oh GOD!  Stop it you guys.  My family's disappearing!  And I'm starting to shake!
 
2013-04-23 10:52:14 AM  

fireclown: About Islam and turkeys:  Just in case we have some Muslim farkers on here, isn't turkey considered halal so long as the bird is slaughtered in accordance with religious rules?


In case we have some Muslim Farkers?!
Fark has EVERYTHING.
I've seen it all here. All professions, all hobbies, all fields of study, all religions and last but not least all sexual orientations; including pre-op and post-ops (insert quagmire image here).

As for your point, yeah, you are right in that turkey is halal. I think the issue is a matter of "imitating" non-believers which is improper.
The question then remains of where do you draw the line? The Islamic scholars differ in this, an luckily enough in mainstream Islam you do not have one governing body, not even the Muftis* of Saudi Arabia, so you have the option of listening to different religious viewpoints a making a conscious decision which makes sense to you**, or if they all make sense (or all don't) people usually adopt the viewpoint of the scholar they've felt comfortable with before in terms of how he thinks.
So for the imitation thing, a "thou shall not celebrate thanksgiving since it is not OUR holiday" is probably the issue.
I've heard some extreme versions where people (usually not scholars) have said you shouldn't even wear the clothes of the "West." Dude, I'm sorry. Do you have any idea how cold it can get?

*clerics who issue fatwa, which is simply a religious decision or call, not "Fatwa on you! And a Fatwa on you!"
**I remember hearing one guy who said he heard a fatwa that you have to fast during Ramadan from sunrise to sunset, even I you are in a Scandinavian country in summer. But truth be told I never heard that myself. (Mainstream opinion is that if you are in such a country you fast according to the hours people fast in Mecca, so probably 4:30am-6:45pm)

/sorry, rushing and editing, so forgive me if some of this turned into waaaarbargle
 
2013-04-23 10:52:32 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.


They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.
 
2013-04-23 10:53:18 AM  
It is not Islam. It's extremism and can happen to anyone in any religion... or not in a religion.

But if it works for folks...
 
2013-04-23 10:54:15 AM  

bhcompy: advex101: Without the cameras of our "surveillance state" these guys would still be on the loose planning step 2. Serious ying/yang issues there regarding the proliferation of cameras.

Except it was private cameras that identified them, not public CCTV, not some federally mandated black box on our cars that rats on us, etc.  Surveillance state is bad.  Forcing people to incriminate themselves with their own footage is bad.  A store volunteering their security tape to identify the bomber is not bad.


I'm willing to be that every private camera that was hard mounted in the area had their files seized within hours of the blast.  Your security tape is just an extension of the government when circumstances dictate.
 
2013-04-23 10:55:13 AM  

Hickory-smoked: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

Most Americans still don't know anything about Muslims aside from news stories like this and what they're told by Nationalistic websites. Ask any Islamic American who was here at the time how their lives were changed by 9/11, and you would have been praying Boston was unrelated too.


Oh please.  We don't have to try and find an equivalent evil in every culture as if that makes it all ok and equal.  7% of American muslims think that suicide bombings are justified.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/30/muslim-american-moderate-vi ew -survey_n_942555.html

Why don't we have more hand wringing about the 200,000 muslims in this country that are probably radicalized?  No, we would much rather point out that other cultures have killers too.  Let's stop bending over backwards to find excuses for this.
 
2013-04-23 10:56:00 AM  
Apparently, the two other victims of the murders on September 11, 2011 were two Jews that Tamerlan's ex-friend was friends with.

Makes the murder thesis even more plausible
 
2013-04-23 10:56:02 AM  

Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.


So what's your plan? A "well informed" , non-naive, brilliant guy like you has a plan, right?
 
2013-04-23 10:56:37 AM  
Onward Christian soldiers. Never forget the crusades.
 
2013-04-23 10:56:55 AM  

Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.


Yes, only Islamic extremists plant bombs:

www.talkingpointsmemo.com
 
2013-04-23 10:57:16 AM  

miss diminutive: JNowe: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.

Well, the last time there was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists on American soil where civilians died the US soon became embroiled in two costly, long-lasting, bloody conflicts. A call for perspective and rational action isn't completely unwarranted.


Oh, I agree that perspective and rational action is warranted, though I don't know that there's a lot of that on either side.  But as far as the usual suspects rushing in to minimize the role that Islam played in the attacks, I'd say he understands at least one subset of Americans rather well.
 
2013-04-23 10:57:37 AM  
At least in this case there were Muslims before the attack that were already denouncing some of the older brother's extremist beliefs.  And the foiled Canadian attack.

I think everyone's tired of this shiat, extremists on all sides excepted.
 
2013-04-23 10:57:39 AM  

Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.


You're absolutely right.  That's why I said they would be law abiding angels if Islam didn't exist.  What?  You think I was being sarcastic?  You think I'm doing the same thing now?
 
2013-04-23 10:58:37 AM  

big pig peaches: Pants full of macaroni!!: Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?

No news to ban it. Just slap a warning label on it.


Fair enough ... let's label them all with descriptions of what is contained inside.

www.atheistmafia.com
 
2013-04-23 10:58:37 AM  

JonnyG: It is not Islam Republicans. It's extremism and can happen to anyone in any religion political party... or not in a religion political party.

But if it works for folks...


Hey, Republicans are OK after all.
 
2013-04-23 10:58:38 AM  

Resident Muslim: The question then remains of where do you draw the line? The Islamic scholars differ in this, an luckily enough in mainstream Islam you do not have one governing body, not even the Muftis* of Saudi Arabia, so you have the option of listening to different religious viewpoints a making a conscious decision which makes sense to you**, or if they all make sense (or all don't) people usually adopt the viewpoint of the scholar they've felt comfortable with before in terms of how he thinks.


So you're encouraged to engage your brain and do some common-sense thinking?  I may have to revise my previous statement.
 
2013-04-23 10:58:55 AM  

IronMyno: Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Consider yourself Favorited. And  great deal of respect on your cool minded very Post. I concur wholeheartedly.


This narrative won't work if he was actually involved in the murders in Waltham in 2011, to which he is now being tentatively linked. I don't know how much that is wishful thinking on the part of the authorities. It seems to me that your version is more likely than someone brutally killing three people and then, two years later, doing something much less personal like a bombing.
 
2013-04-23 10:59:06 AM  

UNC_Samurai: Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.

Yes, only Islamic extremists plant bombs:

[www.talkingpointsmemo.com image 425x528]


When did I say that? All ideologies that routinely inspire people to commit acts of terrorism must be ruthlessly castigated until their adherents are shamed into ever smaller circles of influence.
 
2013-04-23 10:59:12 AM  
And guys stop saying that they were converts to Islam. They were not. They came from non-religious backgrounds but they were still Muslims and identified as such. It's just that they became more religious in the recent years. A convert to Islam would be someone who was born Hindu or non-Religious or a Buddhist and then decided to embrace Islam, not a bunch of guys who were born in Chechnya and went to Islamic schools when they were young.
 
2013-04-23 10:59:51 AM  

Tatsuma: Apparently, the two other victims of the murders on September 11, 2011 were two Jews that Tamerlan's ex-friend was friends with.

Makes the murder thesis even more plausible


People get murdered every day - does it only matter when they're Jews?
 
2013-04-23 11:00:21 AM  

nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".


The difference between radical violent Christians and radical violent Islamists is simple.  If a person reads the New Testament and adheres strictly to the teachings of Jesus then they would soon come to the conclusion that they are pacifist and probably socialist and defenders of tolerance, love, and inclusion.  If a person reads the teachings of Mohammed and follows them strictly then they would soon come to the conclusion that it is a doctrine of violence and intolerance.
 
2013-04-23 11:00:25 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.

You're absolutely right.  That's why I said they would be law abiding angels if Islam didn't exist.  What?  You think I was being sarcastic?  You think I'm doing the same thing now?


I did, and... uh, I wouldn't now, except for the last sentence. So, I'm making that not sure if serious face right now.
 
2013-04-23 11:02:00 AM  

Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.


Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI
 
2013-04-23 11:03:16 AM  
The more I think about it the more I realize that this radicalization is like spam email.  You send out your crazy-ass messages to everyone and 99.99999% of the people completely ignore your asinine rantings but that 0.00001% picks it up and goes with it.  It's very cost effective way to promote your crazy, and since the person sending out the spam is nuts and the persons who acts on it is nuts, it's not surprising that the message is completely incoherent.
 
2013-04-23 11:03:18 AM  

jso2897: Tatsuma: Apparently, the two other victims of the murders on September 11, 2011 were two Jews that Tamerlan's ex-friend was friends with.

Makes the murder thesis even more plausible

"People get murdered every day - does it only matter when they're Jews?

", asked Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

FTFY
 
2013-04-23 11:03:51 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.

Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI


I don't often engage in terrorism, but when I do, it's Environmental Terrorism (tm).
 
2013-04-23 11:04:46 AM  

miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?


Particularly funny when the younger brother once tweeted 'Those who say that Islam is terrorism, don't listen to them'

mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.


This is just stupid. Columbine would have happened either way. This would not have happened if the guy had not become a radicalized Muslim who started to listen to Al-Qaeda-style preaching.

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.


Indeed, it was not. It was, however, radical Islam as preached by Wahhabists and their ilk.
 
2013-04-23 11:06:52 AM  

Tommy Moo: UNC_Samurai: Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.

Yes, only Islamic extremists plant bombs:

[www.talkingpointsmemo.com image 425x528]

When did I say that? All ideologies that routinely inspire people to commit acts of terrorism must be ruthlessly castigated until their adherents are shamed into ever smaller circles of influence.


Now I WILL agree with you there, but religion is not the sole motivating cause of people doing crazy shiat like this.  Violence doesn't need religion, but violent people often find it's a hell of a convenient excuse to add to their self-righteousness.
 
2013-04-23 11:06:54 AM  

another cultural observer: jso2897: Tatsuma: Apparently, the two other victims of the murders on September 11, 2011 were two Jews that Tamerlan's ex-friend was friends with.

Makes the murder thesis even more plausible

"People get murdered every day - does it only matter when they're Jews?", asked Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

FTFY


Hey - when I posted that, I was only following orders.
But really, we shouldn't joke about The Holocaust (tm). My grandfather died at Auschwitz.

Got drunk, fell out of a guard tower, broke his neck.
 
2013-04-23 11:07:11 AM  

jso2897: People get murdered every day - does it only matter when they're Jews?


It does when you are trying to ascertain the motive of a murder that might be linked to a terrorism case, yes.

PC LOAD LETTER: Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI


First of all, that's false. Second, these guys mostly put bombs in empty buildings to protest against animal cruelty and so on, they don't usually go around murdering people. If they started to behave like these two brothers, we'd get people burning 'An Inconvenient Truth' in the streets pretty soon
 
2013-04-23 11:07:13 AM  

brandent: nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".

The difference between radical violent Christians and radical violent Islamists is simple.  If a person reads the New Testament and adheres strictly to the teachings of Jesus then they would soon come to the conclusion that they are pacifist and probably socialist and defenders of tolerance, love, and inclusion.  If a person reads the teachings of Mohammed and follows them strictly then they would soon come to the conclusion that it is a doctrine of violence and intolerance.


I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.   I'm also going to guess that your in-depth study of Islam involves watching TV and movies and listening to the opinions of right-wing columnists, radio show hosts and preachers.  In fact I'm going to double down and guess you've only the slightest passing familiarity with the more-quoted bits of the Bible and are Christian by default, and spend about as much time learning about your relgion on a weekly basis as you devote to nail care.

how close am I?
 
2013-04-23 11:07:17 AM  
I'm sorry but how is a casserole a weapon of mass destruction?
 
2013-04-23 11:07:33 AM  
So guns for all but ban Islam?
 
2013-04-23 11:07:43 AM  

Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.


Not a bad assessment. Olympians are obsessive by nature. How you gonna get to the games if you don't eat sleep breathe drink your sport?
 
2013-04-23 11:08:18 AM  

mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.


So if I go around telling my children to kill those that disagree with them and write books telling others to kill those that disagree with them, and they act upon it, am I not at fault? Such is the case with Islam. You are free to believe anyway you want, you just are not free to act any way you want.
 
2013-04-23 11:08:58 AM  
Memo to nuke-em-all Muslim bashers: your new stereotype is a friendly, well-dressed, athletic young white man with an American accent and a slightly larger-than-average nose. There are a lot of 'em out there, so get busy. Please don't shoot any Sikhs this time.
 
2013-04-23 11:09:15 AM  

Tatsuma: jso2897: People get murdered every day - does it only matter when they're Jews?

It does when you are trying to ascertain the motive of a murder that might be linked to a terrorism case, yes.

PC LOAD LETTER: Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI

First of all, that's false. Second, these guys mostly put bombs in empty buildings to protest against animal cruelty and so on, they don't usually go around murdering people. If they started to behave like these two brothers, we'd get people burning 'An Inconvenient Truth' in the streets pretty soon


And that would be stupid. We should only burn Korans, like sensible people.
 
2013-04-23 11:11:44 AM  

Tatsuma: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

Particularly funny when the younger brother once tweeted 'Those who say that Islam is terrorism, don't listen to them'

mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.

This is just stupid. Columbine would have happened either way. This would not have happened if the guy had not become a radicalized Muslim who started to listen to Al-Qaeda-style preaching.

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.

Indeed, it was not. It was, however, radical Islam as preached by Wahhabists and their ilk.


Someone who picked up Islam in Chechnya is very Unlikely to have caught a Wahhabist strain.  Salafist perhaps, but not Wahhabist, and from YOU, I won't accept "they all look a like to me", you know better
 
2013-04-23 11:11:55 AM  
Whoa ... Tats is back. And I'm all outta popcorn :(
 
2013-04-23 11:12:06 AM  

fireclown: FLMountainMan: Sounds about right. A majority of Christians believe that WBC should legally be allowed to do what they do.

To be fair, the WBC doesn't actually murder people.  Annoying as all get out, but not murderers.


Yep.
 
2013-04-23 11:12:44 AM  

jso2897: And that would be stupid. We should only burn Korans, like sensible people.


We should not be burning Korans, but we should not be burying our heads in the sand and pretend that radical Islam is not a problem, and try to run in every direction trying to find scapegoats.

I mean in this thread I've already learned that: really right-wing xians are the real terrorists, really environment nutcases are the real terrorists and really Islamic terrorism does not really exist.

Those are some major major delusions going on
 
2013-04-23 11:12:50 AM  

Robert1966: IronMyno: Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Consider yourself Favorited. And  great deal of respect on your cool minded very Post. I concur wholeheartedly.

This narrative won't work if he was actually involved in the murders in Waltham in 2011, to which he is now being tentatively linked. I don't know how much that is wishful thinking on the part of the authorities. It seems to me that your version is more likely than someone brutally killing three people and then, two years later, doing something much less personal like a bombing.


- I Favorited Magorn for the cool headed and lack of mindless hate in the post. Even if the narrative falls through, this will not change.
 
2013-04-23 11:13:04 AM  

Fast Thick Pants: Memo to nuke-em-all Muslim bashers: your new stereotype is a friendly, well-dressed, athletic young white man with an American accent and a slightly larger-than-average nose. There are a lot of 'em out there, so get busy. Please don't shoot any Sikhs this time.


adding the qualifiers "Islamic", "immigrant", and "funny name" really thins down the herd, though.  Ask him his name and offer him a hotdog....bingo.
 
2013-04-23 11:13:29 AM  

Fast Thick Pants: Memo to nuke-em-all Muslim bashers: your new stereotype is a friendly, well-dressed, athletic young white man with an American accent and a slightly larger-than-average nose. There are a lot of 'em out there, so get busy. Please don't shoot any Sikhs this time.


But those guys have scary little knives on their belts. They must be turrists!!
 
2013-04-23 11:13:51 AM  
Just because he says he was defending Islam does not mean Islam is to blame.  Any random nutjob could kill children in the name of dog lovers everywhere...that doesn't mean I, as a dog lover, approve of his actions.

His uncle's reaction is about what mine would be if someone tried to include me in their nutjobbery.
 
2013-04-23 11:16:03 AM  

Tatsuma: pretend that radical Islam is not a problem


Just out of curiosity: What percentage of muslims are radical?
 
2013-04-23 11:16:32 AM  

Magorn: Someone who picked up Islam in Chechnya is very Unlikely to have caught a Wahhabist strain. Salafist perhaps, but not Wahhabist, and from YOU, I won't accept "they all look a like to me", you know better


Except that he didn't pick up Islam in Chechnya. First of all, he became radicalized in America, and if you look at his youtube feed (and the twitter of his brother) they were very keen on Wahhabist preachers from Saudi Arabia. Second of all, where he went to train for this in 2012 for six months was in Dagestan, which is the Caucasus Wahhabist central.

And by the way, out of Dagestan in the 90s the Wahhabists did move on to Chechnya in order to form cells and change the country as well.

So yeah, maybe you should think about doing your homework on this.
 
2013-04-23 11:16:33 AM  

Resident Muslim: /sorry, rushing and editing, so forgive me if some of this turned into waaaarbargle


No problem.  A turkey would have been fine, a Thanksgiving Turkey, not so much.

I was pretty sure that there were Muslims on Fark, but I could see a certain avoidance of some threads having developed over time.  Good on ya for providing a much needed service as ambassador.
 
2013-04-23 11:16:53 AM  

JonnyG: It is not Islam. It's extremism and can happen to anyone in any religion... or not in a religion.

But if it works for folks...


Definitely.  Holier than thou attitudes are just as common in political discussions (yes, left or right) as they are in religious ones.
 
2013-04-23 11:16:58 AM  

I_C_Weener: vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.

Then one frightful post Boston bombing morn
Anti-Christians came to say
Rudolph with your Christian terrorism
Won't you falsely equate to Islam?

Then all those haters loved him
And they shouted out with glee
Eric Rudolph, you will go down as Christianity's greatest monster!


Wouldn't Jim Jones be a better (worse?) Christian monster?
 
2013-04-23 11:17:06 AM  

IronMyno: Robert1966: IronMyno: Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Consider yourself Favorited. And  great deal of respect on your cool minded very Post. I concur wholeheartedly.

This narrative won't work if he was actually involved in the murders in Waltham in 2011, to which he is now being tentatively linked. I don't know how much that is wishful thinking on the part of the authorities. It seems to me that your version is more likely than someone brutally killing three people and then, two years later, doing something much less personal like a bombing.

- I Favorited Magorn for the cool headed and lack of mindless hate in the post. Even if the narrative falls through, this will not change.


I do not disagree with your assessment
 
2013-04-23 11:18:26 AM  
But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

EXCUSE ME, Can you point out Christian countries where women are prohibited from driving, people get executed BY THE GOVERNMENT for "insulting Christians" , getting killed for being gay BY THE GOVERNMENT, etc.?

ALL Islamic ruled countries ARE intolerant shiatholes. ALL. Including your precious Turkey. And you Farktards INSIST on making excuses like the above. BULLSHIAT.

All this happy horseshiat about "the muslims I know are loving, tolerant people". Really? How come I don't see these people, if they exist, on TV denouncing radical muslims? How come I never see them at 4th of July parades, little league, fire companies, etc.? All I EVER hear from them after an attack is "please don't hurt us!"  And their women walking around covered in sheets. That's goofy as hell. You farktards would be screaming bloody murder if some "Christian Sect" was doing the same. You'd prolly be organizing "rescue squads" to liberate the poor oppressed women from their cruel masters....

NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.

They are not here to assimulate. They believe they are superior to us, we are weak, and here in the US they are going to do what they've done everywhere else: Keep themselves separate, build up their numbers, and dominate any area they populate. Impose their values on that area. Like Britain. Like France. Like Thailand. Like Malaysia.....

The federal government did a nice job taming the Mormons. They need to do the same to the Muslims.
 
2013-04-23 11:18:47 AM  

LL316: Just because he says he was defending Islam does not mean Islam is to blame. Any random nutjob could kill children in the name of dog lovers everywhere...that doesn't mean I, as a dog lover, approve of his actions.


The problem is that nowhere in dog loving philosophy is it ever acceptable to do that, and there is no 'dog loving' philosophy in the first place.


There are certain branches of Islam who openly advocate terrorism against civilians. Is it mainstream Islam as practiced by the vast majority of Americans? Of course not. However, it exists and just closing your eyes, clenching your fists and saying 'no no no no no' is not going to change that.
 
2013-04-23 11:18:59 AM  

corronchilejano: I'm sorry but how is a casserole a weapon of mass destruction?


www.rankopedia.com
Ask Julie Kotter.
 
2013-04-23 11:19:53 AM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


That's only half true.  WBC, while vile and evil, don't blow up innocent people.  I understand (and agree with) your point. But it's not really a totally fair comparison.
 
2013-04-23 11:20:04 AM  
Because those marathon runners were just destroying Islam. There wasn't going to be any left if the race had concluded without bombs going off!
 
2013-04-23 11:20:23 AM  

Fast Thick Pants: Memo to nuke-em-all Muslim bashers: your new stereotype is a friendly, well-dressed, athletic young white man with an American accent and a slightly larger-than-average nose. There are a lot of 'em out there, so get busy. Please don't shoot any Sikhs this time.


Cut out "athletic", and that's me. (I'm broad. And fat.)

// also browner than most
// European/Jewish by ancestry, agnostic by choice
 
2013-04-23 11:20:24 AM  

HAMMERTOE:
All very, very good points. Of course, what you eventually realize, once your span of conceptualization becomes sufficiently encompassing, is that "Us vs. Them. (and they are evi-i-i-i-i-l-l-l-l-l-!...)" is part and parcel of enabling top-heavy, self-serving, over-spending, responsibility-shirking, heavy-handed national governments, and ours is a prime example.


Oh absolutely! That kind of thinking most certainly can manifest itself on a national level, within any organization or among a couple of like-minded people. The only reason the public didn't object in larger numbers to the Iraq was was because, at the time, the "us vs. them" mentality was in full force. We were us, and they were them. Fark them! Whargarbl, etc.
 
2013-04-23 11:20:36 AM  

mark12A: NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.


How many pledges on TV do you hear from christians planning to eradicate abortion doctor murderers?
 
2013-04-23 11:21:28 AM  
Any religion which believes it is the One True Way (tm) is going to have conflict with another religion that believes it is the One True Way (tm). Especially so when those religions are proselytizing religions.

Nothing new here.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -- Seneca
 
2013-04-23 11:21:46 AM  
Now that they did their 'defense' how is Islam safer? A religion with a billion odd followers needs bombs set off in crowds or it will disappear?  For all they knew there could have been a couple of groups of Muslims there to cheer in some friends or family in the crowd. Bombs don't select who dies on the basis of religion.
Their religion and humanity would have been better off if one of their bombs had detonated while they were making it.
 
2013-04-23 11:22:49 AM  

Farking Canuck: mark12A: NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.

How many pledges on TV do you hear from christians planning to eradicate abortion doctor murderers?


How often is there an abortion doctor murdered?
 
2013-04-23 11:22:56 AM  
He should have said it was to impress Jodie Foster.
 
2013-04-23 11:23:01 AM  
FTA:  Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, wounded and held in a Boston hospital, said his brother wanted to defend Islam from attack, according to the source.

Maybe someone should tell them that most Americans never had a problem with Islam, up to the point they started coming to the U.S. and attacking our citizens.   Even when they were attacking our military outside our country's borders, most Americans didn't have too much of a problem with Islam.

Want to defend and improve Islam... STOP ATTACKING AMERICAN CIVILIANS!
 
2013-04-23 11:23:14 AM  
Oh, so you committed a terrorist act to defend Islam?
wildhunt.org
 
2013-04-23 11:23:30 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.

Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI


farking greentards.

NUKE THE WHALES! GLASS, uh, SWIMMING POOL!

/ seriously, fark the enviro nuts
 
2013-04-23 11:24:29 AM  

DreamSnipers: For all they knew there could have been a couple of groups of Muslims there to cheer in some friends or family in the crowd. Bombs don't select who dies on the basis of religion.


It is likely that they either were linked with Al-Qaeda members in 2012 when the older brother spent some time in Dagestan, and they certainly were connected to them online through propaganda and such.

4 out of 5 Al Qaeda victims are Muslims. Yes, even including the thousands who died at the World Trade Center.

In fact by on killing non-Muslims they went against the grain of their organization.
 
2013-04-23 11:24:35 AM  

Tatsuma: Second, these guys mostly put bombs in empty buildings to protest against animal cruelty and so on, they don't usually go around murdering people.


Still terrorism. Just not the murdering kind.
 
2013-04-23 11:24:46 AM  

Tatsuma: We should not be burning Korans, but we should not be burying our heads in the sand and pretend that radical Islam is not a problem, and try to run in every direction trying to find scapegoats.


Who is saying the radical Islam isn't a problem? How many NATO countries are currently embroiled in Afghanistan against an enemy who opposes democracy, educating women and almost anything to do with modern civilization?

The issue isn't whether radical Islam (or radical anything) is a threat, it's how to proportionally respond to that threat. Radical elements of any group, religion or ideology are dangerous specifically because they are more rigid in their world view, are more likely to place the ends far above the means and view those they who feel aren't "true believers" as below contempt and essentially expendable.

Fundamentalist or radical Islamic groups aren't dangerous because they're Muslim, they're dangerous because they're radical.
 
2013-04-23 11:24:54 AM  

Tatsuma: jso2897: And that would be stupid. We should only burn Korans, like sensible people.

We should not be burning Korans, but we should not be burying our heads in the sand and pretend that radical Islam is not a problem, and try to run in every direction trying to find scapegoats.

I mean in this thread I've already learned that: really right-wing xians are the real terrorists, really environment nutcases are the real terrorists and really Islamic terrorism does not really exist.

Those are some major major delusions going on


If we really MUST get serious about this, yes, it is true. While a real asshole can turn any ideology or belief system into an excuse for mayhem, the Cult of Kali, for example, probably lends itself to that purpose better than Zen Buddhism does.
But at the same point, I can't help but be amused at the solemn lecturing that some people engage in on this subject - as if they were privy to some special information that the rest of us "naive" folks are somehow unaware of. Not everybody processes information the same, and not everybody turns every real or potential threat into an excuse for paranoia and/or bigotry.
 
2013-04-23 11:24:56 AM  
To be fair, if you were just standing around protecting Islam, and thousands of people came running RIGHT AT YOU, you'd be tempted to blow them up too.

How could he possibly have known it was a marathon and not the Inquisition all over again?
 
2013-04-23 11:25:22 AM  

LL316: Farking Canuck: mark12A: NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.

How many pledges on TV do you hear from christians planning to eradicate abortion doctor murderers?

How often is there an abortion doctor murdered?


What is the required frequency of a religious atrocity to justify denouncing it? I wasn't aware there is a minimum.
 
2013-04-23 11:25:43 AM  

QueenMamaBee: I_C_Weener: vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.

Then one frightful post Boston bombing morn
Anti-Christians came to say
Rudolph with your Christian terrorism
Won't you falsely equate to Islam?

Then all those haters loved him
And they shouted out with glee
Eric Rudolph, you will go down as Christianity's greatest monster!

Wouldn't Jim Jones be a better (worse?) Christian monster?


Jim Jones is a complicated case.  Maybe he was a Christian once?  It became a mask for utopian socialism, which was itself just a mask for his own cult of personality. A "true believer" in Christianity he was not.
 
2013-04-23 11:26:17 AM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?


We should ban assault style Islam.  No pistol grips, no flash suppressors, and only 1 Koran per member.  Also, only one pressure cooker per mosque, and then only after background checks.
 
2013-04-23 11:26:28 AM  
And Westboro Baptist Church is "defending Christianity"
 
2013-04-23 11:26:45 AM  

dogfather_jr: To be fair, if you were just standing around protecting Islam, and thousands of people came running RIGHT AT YOU, you'd be tempted to blow them up too.

How could he possibly have known it was a marathon and not the Inquisition all over again?


Crusade, not inquisition. Nobody expected the Crusades.
 
2013-04-23 11:27:01 AM  

Farking Canuck: But those guys have scary little knives on their belts. They must be turrists!!


Not at all: Sihks, and also Scotsmen (well, true Scotsmen at least) are old-school 2nd Amendment heroes. They are to be applauded.

...Now that I think about it, my grandma told me that "coloreds" always carry knives, so I guess they're cool too.

Are there any other hero ethnic groups? Sing out!
 
2013-04-23 11:27:03 AM  

Tatsuma: LL316: Just because he says he was defending Islam does not mean Islam is to blame. Any random nutjob could kill children in the name of dog lovers everywhere...that doesn't mean I, as a dog lover, approve of his actions.

The problem is that nowhere in dog loving philosophy is it ever acceptable to do that, and there is no 'dog loving' philosophy in the first place.


There are certain branches of Islam who openly advocate terrorism against civilians. Is it mainstream Islam as practiced by the vast majority of Americans? Of course not. However, it exists and just closing your eyes, clenching your fists and saying 'no no no no no' is not going to change that.


I agree with this completely.  I just don't like lumping them all in together just because they have a few more ugly/embarassing/murderous relatives than the normal family has.  Just look at their uncle for proof that those who follow Islam can be totally awesome.

I think it might simply be a matter of wordin.  Every rational person is against the extremist militant factions of any religion (Islam or otherwise).  So instead of stressing the Islam portion, those who hate terrorism should stress the extremist portion.  Wouldn't that stop the stupid debate (Islam sucks, no Islam doesn't suck!) and put it where it needs to be...on the terrorists?
 
2013-04-23 11:27:17 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Fast Thick Pants: Memo to nuke-em-all Muslim bashers: your new stereotype is a friendly, well-dressed, athletic young white man with an American accent and a slightly larger-than-average nose. There are a lot of 'em out there, so get busy. Please don't shoot any Sikhs this time.

Cut out "athletic", and that's me. (I'm broad. And fat.)

// also browner than most
// European/Jewish by ancestry, agnostic by choice


Listen.  I'm at work.  I don't have time to go to Banana Republic to display my rage and throw things.  Besides, if I miss people and damage the clothes, I'll have to pay for them.  And I refuse to pay their prices.  I'm just going to have to hate someone else.
/Stupid janitors
 
2013-04-23 11:27:53 AM  

Diogenes: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

[t0.gstatic.com image 231x218]
[crow202.org image 460x295]

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree.  Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc.  But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.


Sadly, the people who think that "we are at war with Islam" are too ignorant to understand your fancy book-learnin' words.  In fact, just by typing them, you're automatically the enemy.
 
2013-04-23 11:28:17 AM  

Voiceofreason01: And Westboro Baptist Church is "defending Christianity"


Don't be giving them ideas. Do you really want the Jihadists to all get law degrees and start trolling and suing everybody?
 
2013-04-23 11:28:32 AM  
Do the people who pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam, and therefore giving cover and protection to Radical Islamists, realize just how much Muslims everywhere around the world suffer under the hand of those Islamists? Whether it's the Talibans in Afghanistan poisoning schoolgirls, the Vice Police in Saudia Arabia beating a man and woman to death for speaking in a super-market or Muslim Brotherhood thugs forcing 'virginity tests' on women protesting in front of Parliament, the first victims of Islamic fundamentalism are other Muslims.

There is a difference between Mainstream Islam and Radical Islam, but the more we pretend that there is not, the easier it is for the Radicals to come over and poison the minds of Muslims in America itself and leading to situations like it did with these two brothers. They are already well advanced in Europe, let's not let it happen in America.

American Muslims by far overwhelmingly reject them, but there are some serious and scary signs that they are gaining traction in America. By staying silent or pretending they don't exist, things only become worse.

Embrace American Muslims by rejecting the radicals.
 
2013-04-23 11:29:46 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI


Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.


BZZZT you're both wrong. most domestic terrorists - the ones who actually harm or kill other americans - are of the right wing variety.
 
2013-04-23 11:29:52 AM  

victrin: Oh, so you committed a terrorist act to defend Islam?


yes. al Qaeda is against us blowing up Muslims, and al Qaeda blows up Muslims all the time.

al Qaeda: yet another member of the "do as I say, not as I do" club. with explosives.
 
2013-04-23 11:30:21 AM  

Farking Canuck: LL316: Farking Canuck: mark12A: NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.

How many pledges on TV do you hear from christians planning to eradicate abortion doctor murderers?

How often is there an abortion doctor murdered?

What is the required frequency of a religious atrocity to justify denouncing it? I wasn't aware there is a minimum.


Once would be nice.  My original question wasn't said in a smartassed manner.  I was genuinely curious...has it ever happened?  I don't remember any instances, that's all.
 
2013-04-23 11:31:17 AM  

over_and_done: Diogenes: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

[t0.gstatic.com image 231x218]
[crow202.org image 460x295]

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree.  Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc.  But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.

Sadly, the people who think that "we are at war with Islam" are too ignorant to understand your fancy book-learnin' words.  In fact, just by typing them, you're automatically the enemy.


Something I find particularly hilarious is when they cite Chamberlane, Churchill, etc., and make pronouncements about "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" - and then propose another round of the Crusades.
Yeah, moron - those who forget history ARE doomed to repeat it.
 
2013-04-23 11:32:19 AM  

FlashHarry: PC LOAD LETTER: Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI

Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.

BZZZT you're both wrong. most domestic terrorists - the ones who actually harm or kill other americans - are of the right wing variety.


Sorry, but an anti-Republican article on HP is no better than an anti-Dem article on Fox.  Find a different source and it would be much better at proving your point.
 
2013-04-23 11:32:58 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Still terrorism. Just not the murdering kind.


And your numbers are still wrong, environmental nuts are not responsible for the most acts of terrorism in this country, sadly Muslims are. Here is a list of all the terror attacks that were stopped between 2009 and 2012.

Guess what 95%+ of them have in common? Radical Islam. Not the Earth Liberation Front.

LL316: I agree with this completely. I just don't like lumping them all in together just because they have a few more ugly/embarassing/murderous relatives than the normal family has. Just look at their uncle for proof that those who follow Islam can be totally awesome.


Look I agree completely and that's why we have to be very clear that the vast majority of Muslims in America reject that shiat. At the same time, we can't be saying that 'Islam had nothing to do with the Boston bombings'. It had everything to do with it, but in the radicalized form.
 
2013-04-23 11:33:41 AM  

Tatsuma: Do the people who pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam blah, blah, blah....


A good place to start might be to stop pretending that anyone is pretending that. Fighting strawmen is easy, but it doesn't impress the observer who has any brains.
 
2013-04-23 11:33:54 AM  

Voiceofreason01: And Westboro Baptist Church is "defending Christianity"


Not too many around these parts defend the WBC or consider them paragons of Christianity.  Pretty much they are the opposite of how a Christian should act.
 
2013-04-23 11:35:39 AM  
A) Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
B) History always repeats itself.

C) No one learns anything, ever.
 
2013-04-23 11:36:05 AM  

LL316: I was genuinely curious...has it ever happened? I don't remember any instances, that's all.


Wikipedia lists 6 since 1993. Followed by a long list of attempted murders, arsons, and other instances of property damage.
 
2013-04-23 11:36:07 AM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Convert or die, said Cortez.


FTFY
 
2013-04-23 11:37:21 AM  

doubled99: A) Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
B) History always repeats itself.

C) No one learns anything, ever.


D) Profit??
 
2013-04-23 11:37:46 AM  
if you don't think Zen Buddhism can lead to mayhem, including genocide, check out imperial Japan during WW2... the code of bushido (which is Zen based), and that whole stupid neo-samurai thing they tried.

/the Zen of bushido is as much "real" Zen as any other.
 
2013-04-23 11:38:39 AM  

Farking Canuck: Just out of curiosity: What percentage of muslims are radical?


The only one that matters was 100% radical. Any orginization is only as good as its leader. It is defined by its leader. Mohammed was an evil man doing evil things. No amount of fark love of Islam changes that reality. Osama bin Laden was not some nutjob doing things that are totally out of line with the mainstream. He was an intelligent thoughtful man who studied Mohammed and correctly interpreted what Islam is supposed to look like. He read and studied the Koran and the Hadiths and he got it right I hate to tell you. Islam will always be dangerous because the peace loving Muslims are completely at odds with what Mohammed taught and how he lived. There will always be elements with Islam that truly want to be what Islam wants them to be. Who want to live as Mohammed would want them to live. Those are the people that are dangerous to the rest of us.
 
2013-04-23 11:39:04 AM  
So people of Islam faith hate marathons.
 
2013-04-23 11:39:20 AM  
Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.
 
2013-04-23 11:39:22 AM  

I_Am_Weasel: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Basically most people who are a new convert to something, be it religion, vegetarianism, exercise regime.  They go full bore into it as if it's the most wondrous thing since sliced deities.  They want to make sure you know about it, and get all offended if you're not as excited about their epiphany as they are.


Tbh i find its more the new converts with an addictive personality. The same people that need to avoid drugs or get hooked hard. They seem like bloody fanatics and have had a few friends become almost intolerable.
But yeah even the balanced ones want to talk about the great new thing in their life that you need to hear about.
 
2013-04-23 11:39:56 AM  

legion_of_doo: if you don't think Zen Buddhism can lead to mayhem, including genocide, check out imperial Japan during WW2... the code of bushido (which is Zen based), and that whole stupid neo-samurai thing they tried.

/the Zen of bushido is as much "real" Zen as any other.


I would have difficulty thinking that any intelligent adult could seriously believe that ANY belief system cannot be bent into a tool of evil.
Trouble is, I can't take this entire discussion seriously.
 
2013-04-23 11:42:29 AM  

jso2897: A good place to start might be to stop pretending that anyone is pretending that. Fighting strawmen is easy, but it doesn't impress the observer who has any brains.


Yeah no one is sayi-

nekom: So it was Islam, ostensibly.  Big frickin deal, that's nothing new.


mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.


Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.


IlGreven: Nope. Still think Islam had about as much to do with the plot as to whether or not they were "real 'Murcans".


rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.


Bedstead Polisher: I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.


and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant.
 
2013-04-23 11:43:49 AM  

nmemkha: Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities


Bullcrap. That is revisionist history. Christianity was one battle away from being wiped out in Europe. Muslims were taking land as fast as they could ride through it. The first Crusade was completely about survival for the church and Christianity in general. The subsequent Crusades were more about land grabs and there is where a lot of the atrocities you speak of came into it but to try and hold Islam blameless during that time in history is revisionisit history and wrong.
 
2013-04-23 11:44:21 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.


Is being such an apologist exhausting?  Just seems like it must be....
 
2013-04-23 11:45:13 AM  

nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.


Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.
 
2013-04-23 11:45:26 AM  

nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.


BS, go ask a Persian how much peace and love Timur spread
 
2013-04-23 11:45:32 AM  

legion_of_doo: if you don't think Zen Buddhism can lead to mayhem, including genocide, check out imperial Japan during WW2... the code of bushido (which is Zen based), and that whole stupid neo-samurai thing they tried.

/the Zen of bushido is as much "real" Zen as any other.


It was in fact often used as a justification for war, piracy and general dickishery

i.imgur.com

nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.


The Catholic Church has not been busy torturing and killing tens (if not hundreds if you add in Iraq at this point) of thousands of people over the last decade. Islamic fundamentalists sure as fark have been.
 
2013-04-23 11:48:07 AM  

runescorpio: Tbh i find its more the new converts with an addictive personality.


They were not converts, they were born Muslims, they just became more religious after their mother asked them to.

jso2897: In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty,


Are you kidding? Not only in terms of numbers do they win (seriously, the inquisition? very few people died all in all) but there is some serious cruel shiat going on right now in the Middle East. Have you not seen the new finger cutting machine used by the Iranian government for example?

Have you not read about torture chambers of those groups in the Middle-East?

... you are seriously wrong.
 
2013-04-23 11:50:09 AM  

Fast Thick Pants: Memo to nuke-em-all Muslim bashers: your new stereotype is a friendly, well-dressed, athletic young white man with an American accent and a slightly larger-than-average nose. There are a lot of 'em out there, so get busy. Please don't shoot any Sikhs this time.


ohcrapohcrapohcrapohcra-

Wait, I'm not even slightly athletic anymore.  Whew!
 
2013-04-23 11:50:41 AM  
I'm puzzled as to why the "Why did they do this?" question deserves any attention whatsoever. Doesn't acknowledging the motive give these murderers the validation that they originally sought?  Murderers should be punished for what they did without any consideration for why they did it.

If understanding what motivated these murderers brought us a centimeter closer to preventing this in the future, then it would be worth debating, but I am certain that it doesn't. I firmly believe that the discussion encourages another attack. The discussion about the spectrum of tolerance and intolerance of religion is now in the limelight and that means that the act of mass murder is effectively classified as terror.

This is like a traffic jam on a highway in the opposite direction of a wreck. Why doesn't everyone realize that if we stopped rubber necking, the traffic would flow without impediment? Just like the traffic accident, we should let the authorities and justice system sort this out. Every minute that Anderson Cooper et al. spends on this topic is a victory for the shallow cause of murderers.
 
2013-04-23 11:51:51 AM  

Tatsuma: Magorn: Someone who picked up Islam in Chechnya is very Unlikely to have caught a Wahhabist strain. Salafist perhaps, but not Wahhabist, and from YOU, I won't accept "they all look a like to me", you know better

Except that he didn't pick up Islam in Chechnya. First of all, he became radicalized in America, and if you look at his youtube feed (and the twitter of his brother) they were very keen on Wahhabist preachers from Saudi Arabia. Second of all, where he went to train for this in 2012 for six months was in Dagestan, which is the Caucasus Wahhabist central.

And by the way, out of Dagestan in the 90s the Wahhabists did move on to Chechnya in order to form cells and change the country as well.

So yeah, maybe you should think about doing your homework on this.


You've got a very different

Tatsuma: Do the people who pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam, and therefore giving cover and protection to Radical Islamists, realize just how much Muslims everywhere around the world suffer under the hand of those Islamists? Whether it's the Talibans in Afghanistan poisoning schoolgirls, the Vice Police in Saudia Arabia beating a man and woman to death for speaking in a super-market or Muslim Brotherhood thugs forcing 'virginity tests' on women protesting in front of Parliament, the first victims of Islamic fundamentalism are other Muslims.

There is a difference between Mainstream Islam and Radical Islam, but the more we pretend that there is not, the easier it is for the Radicals to come over and poison the minds of Muslims in America itself and leading to situations like it did with these two brothers. They are already well advanced in Europe, let's not let it happen in America.

American Muslims by far overwhelmingly reject them, but there are some serious and scary signs that they are gaining traction in America. By staying silent or pretending they don't exist, things only become worse.

Embrace American Muslims by rejecting the radicals.


I don't think anyone is "defending" radical anything. But they do want a distinction made between the relgion and the actions of people like this.   Whenever stories filter out of Israel of the actions of extremist ultra-ultra-Orthodox sects, that seem almost Taliban-like, you are the first one to step up and say to people, "These guys are NOT representative of mainstream Judaism not even the Orthodox kind, they are abunch of misguided fantics who most of us can't stand"   and rightfully so, because that's the truth, and you have an interest in not seeing something you care about painted with a broad brush by the actions of a stupid few.   I'm Roman Catholic, so I can't tell you how many times I've been compelled to post, "Hey not ALL priests are kiddy-farkers, just SOME of them" .  I think Muslims are entitled to the same disclaimers.   There are over 1 Billion Muslims in this world,  the vast majority of whom are fine people, and they should be allowed to say "hey these asshats are not on us" just like we can.
 
2013-04-23 11:51:52 AM  

Tatsuma: jso2897: A good place to start might be to stop pretending that anyone is pretending that. Fighting strawmen is easy, but it doesn't impress the observer who has any brains.

Yeah no one is sayi-

nekom: So it was Islam, ostensibly.  Big frickin deal, that's nothing new.

mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.

Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

IlGreven: Nope. Still think Islam had about as much to do with the plot as to whether or not they were "real 'Murcans".

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.

Bedstead Polisher: I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.

and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant.


NO, sorry - those people are only pointing out what you have said yourself - that it is not Islam  as such,
but a radicalized version thereof that attracts people who are probably assholes to begin with - you might just as well have quoted yourself.
I'm sorry, dude, but you don't have any special, privileged knowledge to impart to the rest of us.
Nobody here is "naive", and nobody here needs you to downsplain reality to them.
 
2013-04-23 11:53:54 AM  

jso2897: nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.

Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.


The Mongols 'win' by a mile on the atrocity level pre-age of exploration, they actively carried out genocidal campaigns in northern china cause some princes stayed home instead of sending troops
 
2013-04-23 11:53:56 AM  
Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?
 
2013-04-23 11:54:30 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Cut out "athletic", and that's me. (I'm broad. And fat.)


Keep beating anorexia, patriot!

I'm in the at-risk group too. I even have Dzhokhar's hair (well, about 2/3 of it left). I've decided to be less friendly and stylish; that should mark me as a loyal American.
 
2013-04-23 11:55:01 AM  

Tatsuma: American Muslims by far overwhelmingly reject them, but there are some serious and scary signs that they are gaining traction in America. By staying silent or pretending they don't exist, things only become worse.

Embrace American Muslims by rejecting the radicals.


I love you Tat but on this you are wrong. You have taken on the sanitized American idea of what Islam is. While it sounds reasonable to not paint an entire 1 billion people with the same brush what Islam is always comes back to its roots. You cant change what Islam is. Mohammed was what he was. He said and did what he did. As long as the entire religion is based on the idea that one man speaks for god and only that man speaks for god then you are forced to look to that man and how he lived for what is the heart of god.
 
2013-04-23 11:55:08 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.


UNC_Samurai: Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.

Yes, only Islamic extremists plant bombs:

[www.talkingpointsmemo.com image 425x528]


Yup!  The global movement of Christians to carry out assassinations of abortion doctors is in full force!!!
 
2013-04-23 11:56:39 AM  

ShadowKamui: jso2897: nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.

Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.

The Mongols 'win' by a mile on the atrocity level pre-age of exploration, they actively carried out genocidal campaigns in northern china cause some princes stayed home instead of sending troops


Well, if you start applying qualifications like "pre-age of exploration", or whatever, you can make anybody the "winner" you want to. The issue to me is whether it's a discussion worth having. I think not, so if you want to have that discussion, you'll have to have it with someone else.
 
2013-04-23 11:56:47 AM  

Tatsuma: Bedstead Polisher: I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.

and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant.


That's exactly what I said.
 
2013-04-23 11:57:31 AM  

Magorn: There are over 1 Billion Muslims in this world,  the vast majority of whom are fine people, and they should be allowed to say "hey these asshats are not on us" just like we can.


You would think that, but then where are they?  Granted, some do speak up.  However, there are so many others that are either silent <read as apathetic> or genuinely supportive.
 
2013-04-23 11:57:31 AM  
@Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?
 
2013-04-23 11:58:24 AM  
We must defend our religion by pissing off the most powerful country on earth. A country that could blow us all to tiny bits and turn our holy lands into glass by pressing a button.

Yeah, that sounds like religious 'reasoning' alright.
 
2013-04-23 12:00:52 PM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?


We need to require extended background checks with a two week waiting period before you can practice Islam. Also, a federal tax on copies of the Qur'an might help...
 
2013-04-23 12:01:41 PM  

I_C_Weener: Pants full of macaroni!!: Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?

We should ban assault style Islam.  No pistol grips, no flash suppressors, and only 1 Koran per member.  Also, only one pressure cooker per mosque, and then only after background checks.


I would be okay with applying this across the board.  My mother might complain about what this will do to potluck Sundays at our old church, but I think they'll adapt.

/...to the pressure cooker rule, not the flash suppressor rule
//that would be a problem at the OTHER protestant church further down the road
 
2013-04-23 12:01:45 PM  

balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?


religion needs to be regulated sensibly, like we need new sensible gun regulations.

/ threw this up yesterday also
/ vomit
 
2013-04-23 12:01:48 PM  
It was either going to be mental illness or fanatical religion. Granted, the latter isn't there without the former.
No mentally sound person would stay in the town and plan for a violent death, much less do a bombing against random people.

"But... but what about Christians!"

fark them, too. Also the Jews and Hindus and anyone else eager to throw away the world for their idol.
 
2013-04-23 12:02:05 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Basically most people who are a new convert to something, be it religion, vegetarianism, exercise regime.  They go full bore into it as if it's the most wondrous thing since sliced deities.  They want to make sure you know about it, and get all offended if you're not as excited about their epiphany as they are.


That's why I'll never let Mr. Delite get a taste of anal.
 
2013-04-23 12:03:20 PM  

FLMountainMan: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity.

Sounds about right.  A majority of Christians believe that WBC should legally be allowed to do what they do.


ohyou.jpg
 
2013-04-23 12:03:37 PM  

Tatsuma: and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant


It is relevant in that it explains the motivation. That is where the relevance stops. The Derpers will say that it is clear evidence that Islam is a batshiat murder-frenzy cult and thus we must make every effort to destroy it (for the Glory of BibleGod and his boy Jesus, most likely).

The Tsarnaevs were born cultural muslims in the same way most American Christians are born to it, celebrating Christmas & Easter but rarely reading the Bible except maybe 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 at cousin Jimmy's wedding. Then as another poster commented, the elder brother became directionless and sought his religious roots for a sense of purpose.

In this way he's no different than Tim McVeigh. Consider T McV: a loyal, native-born American citizen, awkward teen, but successful as an enlisted soldier in the US Army, Persian Gulf War Veteran, honorably discharged after turned down for the special forces. Directionless, he turned to radical separatism, the White Supremecists and the Militia Movement. Stand up against this oppressive US Government Regime! It gave him a sense of purpose and meaning, and if you REALLY believe, you do something big to show you're serious and not just a dilettante.

Same dynamic. But saying, "Oh, see, he's Muslin so we best fire up the War Machine and invade [petroleum/natural gas producing nation of your choice]" is pointless and stupid, UNLESS you can prove that the country in question sponsored it or consciously allowed someone in their borders to sponsor it.

Beyond that, the Muslim Doesn't Matter.
 
2013-04-23 12:04:01 PM  

KellyX: @Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?


I ask that question in every one of these "biatch and moan about Islam" threads. I never get an answer (except "joke" answers).
 
2013-04-23 12:05:14 PM  
Diogenes:

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

That's my question. How are you "defending Islam" by bombing innocent people at the Boston Marathon?
 
2013-04-23 12:05:44 PM  

Magorn: I don't think anyone is "defending" radical anything.


We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see saying 'This has nothing to do with Islam! They just wanted to kill people' as anything but a defense of Radical Islam, as everything these guys did was motivated and centered around Islam, however distorted their own version of it was.

Magorn: I think Muslims are entitled to the same disclaimers.


Yes and that's why I make it painfully clear in my posts that there are huge differences. (Still will be accused of being a bigot who hates all Muslims, though, I'm sure that's coming soon)

KellyX: Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?


*sigh*

That's the hard part, isn't it? One of the major problems in terms of stopping radicalization is that we're just so friendly with Saudi Arabia. If we wanted to really curb any influence that these people have on American Muslims, we would have to basically stop accepting most Saudi Imams who want to come to America to preach, to severely limit the number of religious material sent from Saudi Arabia and really inquire into what they are sending exactly, and so on. That would still leave us with the problem of the internet, how they reach a whole lot more people due to its ease of access.

Not only are we allies with Saudi Arabia and therefore can't do this, but some of those are also unconstitutional as shiat, mosque and state separation and all.

So in the end, I'm not sure how we can really do anything about it. One thing I know, though, to fool ourselves and pretend it's not a growing problem in America is not the solution but a major part of the problem.
 
2013-04-23 12:06:10 PM  

Tatsuma: jso2897: A good place to start might be to stop pretending that anyone is pretending that. Fighting strawmen is easy, but it doesn't impress the observer who has any brains.

Yeah no one is sayi-

nekom: So it was Islam, ostensibly.  Big frickin deal, that's nothing new.

mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.

Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

IlGreven: Nope. Still think Islam had about as much to do with the plot as to whether or not they were "real 'Murcans".

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.

Bedstead Polisher: I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.

and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant.


So by quoting me you're asserting that these brothers in fact would be law abiding angels if not for Islam.  Ah, then twisting it to make your argument by confining it to radical Islam.  Congratulations on moving the goal posts.  I'm not completely disagreeing with your revision.  Just read the headline again.  Tell me your head hasn't been hurting when you find that all aspects of Islam are subject to scrutiny because of the radical faction.  I'm not Muslim but I can't bring myself to hate all Muslims for any reason.  Yes, even after last week.

My point is that these guys in particular already hated me.  That's the core of this.  They later found flawed reasoning and justification of violence through radical Islam - a natural partnership based on their heritage, and mostly unfortunate based on the level of destructive knowledge available within that faction.  Would you also assert that they couldn't/wouldn't have looked elsewhere, such as another religion or nationalistic fanaticism?  There's truly no way of knowing, but I'm comfortable believing these guys were bad apples to begin with.
 
2013-04-23 12:06:17 PM  

jso2897: KellyX: @Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

I ask that question in every one of these "biatch and moan about Islam" threads. I never get an answer (except "joke" answers).


Well a good start would be to distance yourself from all extremists instead of carrying water for them.
Also calling out MSNBC, salon.com and any other organization that makes excuses or buries their head in the sand.
 
2013-04-23 12:06:38 PM  

jso2897: KellyX: @Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

I ask that question in every one of these "biatch and moan about Islam" threads. I never get an answer (except "joke" answers).


That's because you've probably been smart enough to plonk the rabid idiots who would deport them from this country altogether.  And/or nuke the countries they came from.  They're in this thread, sadly, if your filter is out of date.
 
2013-04-23 12:08:24 PM  

LL316: Sorry, but an anti-Republican article on HP is no better than an anti-Dem article on Fox.  Find a different source and it would be much better at proving your point.


the article uses stanford's global terrorism database as a source, but nice try.
 
2013-04-23 12:11:13 PM  

bluefox3681: jso2897: KellyX: @Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

I ask that question in every one of these "biatch and moan about Islam" threads. I never get an answer (except "joke" answers).

Well a good start would be to distance yourself from all extremists instead of carrying water for them.
Also calling out MSNBC, salon.com and any other organization that makes excuses or buries their head in the sand.


So, in other words, a bunch of vague, subjective hand-waving that has no actual, concrete meaning?

About what I expected.
 
2013-04-23 12:11:41 PM  
This is all because he was a boxer and suffered one too many concussii.

BAN BOXING!!!!!
 
2013-04-23 12:13:13 PM  

AngryJailhouseFistfark: Tatsuma: and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant

It is relevant in that it explains the motivation. That is where the relevance stops. The Derpers will say that it is clear evidence that Islam is a batshiat murder-frenzy cult and thus we must make every effort to destroy it (for the Glory of BibleGod and his boy Jesus, most likely).

The Tsarnaevs were born cultural muslims in the same way most American Christians are born to it, celebrating Christmas & Easter but rarely reading the Bible except maybe 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 at cousin Jimmy's wedding. Then as another poster commented, the elder brother became directionless and sought his religious roots for a sense of purpose.

In this way he's no different than Tim McVeigh. Consider T McV: a loyal, native-born American citizen, awkward teen, but successful as an enlisted soldier in the US Army, Persian Gulf War Veteran, honorably discharged after turned down for the special forces. Directionless, he turned to radical separatism, the White Supremecists and the Militia Movement. Stand up against this oppressive US Government Regime! It gave him a sense of purpose and meaning, and if you REALLY believe, you do something big to show you're serious and not just a dilettante.

Same dynamic. But saying, "Oh, see, he's Muslin so we best fire up the War Machine and invade [petroleum/natural gas producing nation of your choice]" is pointless and stupid, UNLESS you can prove that the country in question sponsored it or consciously allowed someone in their borders to sponsor it.

Beyond that, the Muslim Doesn't Matter.


Well certainly most Muslims are just people, it's been a thousand years or so since a Pope declared holy war on the non-believers. How often do we hear Muslim leaders calling for jihad? Religious problems tend to come from the top down, and as bad as Christians standing on the corner screaming about the Gheys are, they tend not to blow people up at the urging of the church.
 
2013-04-23 12:13:28 PM  

beanx: This is all because he was a boxer and suffered one too many concussii.

BAN BOXING!!!!!


Boxing seems to be doing a pretty good job of dying off all by itself.
 
2013-04-23 12:14:09 PM  

TrixieDelite: Diogenes:

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

That's my question. How are you "defending Islam" by bombing innocent people at the Boston Marathon?


By killing the unbelievers.
 
2013-04-23 12:15:05 PM  

Tatsuma: KellyX: Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

*sigh*

That's the hard part, isn't it? One of the major problems in terms of stopping radicalization is that we're just so friendly with Saudi Arabia. If we wanted to really curb any influence that these people have on American Muslims, we would have to basically stop accepting most Saudi Imams who want to come to America to preach, to severely limit the number of religious material sent from Saudi Arabia and really inquire into what they are sending exactly, and so on. That would still leave us with the problem of the internet, how they reach a whole lot more people due to its ease of access.

Not only are we allies with Saudi Arabia and therefore can't do this, but some of those are also unconstitutional as shiat, mosque and state separation and all.

So in the end, I'm not sure how we can really do anything about it. One thing I know, though, to fool ourselves and pretend it's not a growing problem in America is not the solution but a major part of the problem.


Ok, so there is no solution, just realize that radical islamist exist and deal with them as they pop up...?

Pretty sure that is what's going on now...
 
2013-04-23 12:16:21 PM  

jso2897: ShadowKamui: jso2897: nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.

Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.

The Mongols 'win' by a mile on the atrocity level pre-age of exploration, they actively carried out genocidal campaigns in northern china cause some princes stayed home instead of sending troops

Well, if you start applying qualifications like "pre-age of exploration", or whatever, you can make anybody the "winner" you want to. The issue to me is whether it's a discussion worth having. I think not, so if you want to have that discussion, you'll have to have it with someone else.


Its more that the whole booga-bogga Christians evil cause of the crusades and the inquisitions while everyone else was far less bad back then is a BS story people try to tell themselves to hate on Christians

Timur & Genghis Khan were far more heinous in their acts and Timur was by some accounts doing it cause Sunni Islam "was the best".  Its not to condone what people did in the name of God/Jesus, but yeah anybody trying to claim worst atrocity ever is completely full of it.
 
2013-04-23 12:16:27 PM  
 
2013-04-23 12:16:53 PM  

nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".


Or Fark, when talking about Republicans or Christians?
 
2013-04-23 12:17:13 PM  

KellyX: Tatsuma: KellyX: Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

*sigh*

That's the hard part, isn't it? One of the major problems in terms of stopping radicalization is that we're just so friendly with Saudi Arabia. If we wanted to really curb any influence that these people have on American Muslims, we would have to basically stop accepting most Saudi Imams who want to come to America to preach, to severely limit the number of religious material sent from Saudi Arabia and really inquire into what they are sending exactly, and so on. That would still leave us with the problem of the internet, how they reach a whole lot more people due to its ease of access.

Not only are we allies with Saudi Arabia and therefore can't do this, but some of those are also unconstitutional as shiat, mosque and state separation and all.

So in the end, I'm not sure how we can really do anything about it. One thing I know, though, to fool ourselves and pretend it's not a growing problem in America is not the solution but a major part of the problem.

Ok, so there is no solution, just realize that radical islamist exist and deal with them as they pop up...?

Pretty sure that is what's going on now...


Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.
 
2013-04-23 12:17:22 PM  

EWreckedSean: TrixieDelite: Diogenes:

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

That's my question. How are you "defending Islam" by bombing innocent people at the Boston Marathon?

By killing the unbelievers.


Late to the party, with old, tired shiat.
Get some fresh lines, dude.
 
2013-04-23 12:17:32 PM  

balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?


Not that it matters, but not all Constitutional rights are unregulated.  We don't let Mormons marry multiple women, or Aztecs sacrifice humans.  We probably shouldn't let Christians or Muslims kill people.
 
2013-04-23 12:17:52 PM  

KellyX: Ok, so there is no solution, just realize that radical islamist exist and deal with them as they pop up...?


Actually becoming energy independent and then treat Saudi Arabia as the pariah state should be treated is probably the first step we can actually do.
 
2013-04-23 12:18:46 PM  

thunderbird8804: We are at war, to digress briefly, with Islamic fundamentalism modern Islam, which tends to breed fundamentalists.

/That should cover roughly half the thread

 
2013-04-23 12:18:54 PM  

ShadowKamui: jso2897: ShadowKamui: jso2897: nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.

Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.

The Mongols 'win' by a mile on the atrocity level pre-age of exploration, they actively carried out genocidal campaigns in northern china cause some princes stayed home instead of sending troops

Well, if you start applying qualifications like "pre-age of exploration", or whatever, you can make anybody the "winner" you want to. The issue to me is whether it's a discussion worth having. I think not, so if you want to have that discussion, you'll have to have it with someone else.

Its more that the whole booga-bogga Christians evil cause of the crusades and the inquisitions while everyone else was far less bad back then is a BS story people try to tell themselves to hate on Christians

Timur & Genghis Khan were far more heinous in their acts and Timur was by some accounts doing it cause Sunni Islam "was the best".  Its not to condone what people did in the name of God/Jesus, but yeah anybody trying to claim worst atrocity ever is completely full of it.


Exactly - which is why it's a discussion not worth having.
 
2013-04-23 12:19:37 PM  

EWreckedSean: Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.


Except that the overwhelming majority of terrorists come from upper-middle-class or better backgrounds, with at the very least a college education.


Yeah, the easier their lives are and the more educated they are, the more Muslims are likely to embrace radical Islam and support terrorism. So your cultural imperialism is not going to work for shiat in that situation
 
2013-04-23 12:20:44 PM  

Tatsuma: KellyX: Ok, so there is no solution, just realize that radical islamist exist and deal with them as they pop up...?

Actually becoming energy independent and then treat Saudi Arabia as the pariah state should be treated is probably the first step we can actually do.


What exactly is "energy independent"?

Does that really mean when we no longer need to use oil anymore?
 
2013-04-23 12:20:56 PM  

I_C_Weener: balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?

Not that it matters, but not all Constitutional rights are unregulated.  We don't let Mormons marry multiple women, or Aztecs sacrifice humans.  We probably shouldn't let Christians or Muslims kill people.


It's legal for Christians and/or Muslims to kill people? I'll have to give this "religion" thing another look.
Maybe i should take it up.
 
2013-04-23 12:21:16 PM  
I'm Catholic, and I participated in a crusade recently.

see, the pope wanted us to retake Hungary from the pagan Mongol horde, so I took my Ducal army over to the continent while I was secretly plotting the assassination of the heir to the throne of Ireland so that my kinsman could inherit the throne.

/DEUS VULT!
/ addicted to crusader kings 2
 
2013-04-23 12:21:20 PM  

EWreckedSean: Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.


Guess that explains the two bombers...
 
2013-04-23 12:21:57 PM  

balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?


Any religion ending with an "m" is outlawed.
 
2013-04-23 12:23:39 PM  

fireclown: Resident Muslim: /sorry, rushing and editing, so forgive me if some of this turned into waaaarbargle

No problem.  A turkey would have been fine, a Thanksgiving Turkey, not so much.

I was pretty sure that there were Muslims on Fark, but I could see a certain avoidance of some threads having developed over time.  Good on ya for providing a much needed service as ambassador.


Blushing? Who's blushing?!
;)

I've actually found Fark to be well-knowledged about Islam, with many non-Muslims (atheists, agnostics, Christians and Jews etc) dispelling many myths, and I personally thank them or that.
I know there are trolls here. Also people who have never met a Muslim in thier life and have painted their opinion with the broad brush of media and Hollywood, but they are few. I also have noticed the trend of -and I'm going to say it, I couldn't find an alternative word- the trend of enlightened people increasing here. People who have more awareness and are willing to question things and be more curious.

The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity.
The Prophet -peace be upon him- actually told the soldiers heading out to jihad (again same disclaimer) "do not kill a child, do not kill an old man, do not cut down trees" (looking at you agent orange).
If I believe that what I have is for the betterment of humanity, that it is for all people that one person who believes is better for me than the best of material goods, why would I do anything that makes this religion look bad?
Can you imagine me now going to one of the people affected directly or indirectly by the blast an saying something like "have you ever considered Islam?" "Do you seek serenity? Look into Islam." What do you think their response will be?
How is this something like this supposed to help?
 
2013-04-23 12:24:32 PM  

Tatsuma: EWreckedSean: Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.

Except that the overwhelming majority of terrorists come from upper-middle-class or better backgrounds, with at the very least a college education.


Yeah, the easier their lives are and the more educated they are, the more Muslims are likely to embrace radical Islam and support terrorism. So your cultural imperialism is not going to work for shiat in that situation


Well, they are certainly more likely to be in a position to do something about it. What they are more likely to "embrace" is pure assumption on your part.
 
2013-04-23 12:24:58 PM  

KellyX: What exactly is "energy independent"?

Does that really mean when we no longer need to use oil anymore?


A mix of lots of electric cars/hybrid and drilling at home. We also need to get Europe on the same bandwagon.

If you cut the oil money from the Middle-East, a lot of that shiat will die down.
 
2013-04-23 12:25:27 PM  

Deep Contact: balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?

Any religion ending with an "m" is outlawed.


Like "Atheism"?
/ducks, runs away.
 
2013-04-23 12:26:00 PM  

jso2897: Well, they are certainly more likely to be in a position to do something about it. What they are more likely to "embrace" is pure assumption on your part.


No it's not, there have been many many studies in many countries. The poorer and less educated tend to overwhelmingly reject violence and terrorism while the wealthy and educated embrace it fully.

Just look at the head echelon of Al Qaeda for fark's sake.
 
2013-04-23 12:26:29 PM  

beanx: This is all because he was a boxer and suffered one too many concussii.

BAN BOXING!!!!!


If you don't think too many blows to the head can completely change someone into an insane motherfarker, you've forgotten about Chris Benoit.
 
2013-04-23 12:27:20 PM  

jso2897: EWreckedSean: TrixieDelite: Diogenes:

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

That's my question. How are you "defending Islam" by bombing innocent people at the Boston Marathon?

By killing the unbelievers.

Late to the party, with old, tired shiat.
Get some fresh lines, dude.


Why do you think bombers do it genius? Hell the brother already said they let the guy go who they carjacked because he wasn't an American.
 
2013-04-23 12:28:29 PM  

KellyX: EWreckedSean: Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.

Guess that explains the two bombers...


Exceptions don't change the rule.
 
2013-04-23 12:29:09 PM  

Tatsuma: EWreckedSean: Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.

Except that the overwhelming majority of terrorists come from upper-middle-class or better backgrounds, with at the very least a college education.


Yeah, the easier their lives are and the more educated they are, the more Muslims are likely to embrace radical Islam and support terrorism. So your cultural imperialism is not going to work for shiat in that situation


Can you source that please?
 
2013-04-23 12:29:22 PM  

ShadowKamui: jso2897: nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.

Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.

The Mongols 'win' by a mile on the atrocity level pre-age of exploration, they actively carried out genocidal campaigns in northern china cause some princes stayed home instead of sending troops


images.wikia.com

/Would like a word...
 
2013-04-23 12:29:49 PM  

jso2897: Deep Contact: balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?

Any religion ending with an "m" is outlawed.

Like "Atheism"?
/ducks, runs away.


Get back here!!
 
2013-04-23 12:30:41 PM  

Tatsuma: KellyX: What exactly is "energy independent"?

Does that really mean when we no longer need to use oil anymore?

A mix of lots of electric cars/hybrid and drilling at home. We also need to get Europe on the same bandwagon.

If you cut the oil money from the Middle-East, a lot of that shiat will die down.


But it's all sold on the international market, even all the oil the US or the EU pumps up... It's not as if it's finders keepers going on.

Literally to be independent of Saudi/Middle Eastern oil we'd have to flat out stop using oil to the degree that it'd only be needed for stuff like lubrication (which we can make synthetics do better) or making plastics, thereby make the value go down so much that they'd not be getting as rich off it.
 
2013-04-23 12:31:17 PM  

I_C_Weener: balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?

Not that it matters, but not all Constitutional rights are unregulated.  We don't let Mormons marry multiple women, or Aztecs sacrifice humans.  We probably shouldn't let Christians or Muslims kill people.


Which is already illegal.  And when the government has proof that people conspired with or supported others in killingl, they get charged too.

Yes, religious extremists killing people is bad.  In a free society, what are we suppose to do to prevent it?
 
2013-04-23 12:31:21 PM  

Resident Muslim: I've actually found Fark to be well-knowledged about Islam, with many non-Muslims (atheists, agnostics, Christians and Jews etc) dispelling many myths, and I personally thank them or that.
I know there are trolls here.


Im sorry but I respectfully disagree with you. I have studied Mohammed, the Koran and the Hadiths extensively and your cherry picking of a couple verses is just as bad as a Christian cherry picking verses from the Bible to make a point. The Koran, Hadiths and history all come together to provide context to what the texts mean. I do not speak Arabic so my views are not given any weight by serious scholars of Islam of course but the translations, in the real world, give a pretty good insight into what Islam is and what it wants to be. Mohammed is the highest prophet of Allah and as such what he says and what he did goes.
 
2013-04-23 12:31:37 PM  

Tatsuma: jso2897: Well, they are certainly more likely to be in a position to do something about it. What they are more likely to "embrace" is pure assumption on your part.

No it's not, there have been many many studies in many countries. The poorer and less educated tend to overwhelmingly reject violence and terrorism while the wealthy and educated embrace it fully.

Just look at the head echelon of Al Qaeda for fark's sake.


Again - we see those who have the tools to act on what they believe - we don't see those who don't -at least not here in the West, where it takes money to operate.
 I have not seen any of these "studies" you calim to exist, and I doubt that they do, at least not from credible sources. Once again, you are citing your own opinionated assumptions as facts.
 
2013-04-23 12:33:38 PM  

Kentucky Fried Panda: thunderbird8804: We are at war, to digress briefly, with Islamic fundamentalism modern Islam, which tends to breed fundamentalists.

/That should cover roughly half the thread


Old Islam is pretty horrendous too, though its fusion with National Socialist and Fascist ideology after WWII certainly didn't help.
 
2013-04-23 12:34:18 PM  

EWreckedSean: Can you source that please?


Sure

http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-cont en ts/what-makes-a-terrorist
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/bruce-hoffman/todays-highly-educate d- terrorists-4080
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/magazine/12FOB-IdeaLab-t.html?scp= 1& sq=Berreby&st=cse
http://www.nber.org/digest/sep02/w9074.html

and the list goes on and on and on. It's a myth that getting them out of poverty, and giving them access to comfortable lifestyles and education will curb terrorism. The answer lies elsewhere.

By the way in Canada yesterday they arrested two Al Qaeda members for planning a terrorist attack. One of them was once again an engineer with many many diplomas
 
2013-04-23 12:34:47 PM  
How many people that post here were raped by priests?
Show of hands please?

/This may answer some questions.
 
2013-04-23 12:36:39 PM  
i35.tinypic.com

I'm pretty sure he's one of the Jonas brothers.
 
2013-04-23 12:37:09 PM  

Tatsuma: KellyX: Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

*sigh*

That's the hard part, isn't it?


Well, we could try and export democracy and the idea of secular self-rule, but it turns out, that's part of the reason radicalization happens. And even if that does take hold, the people tend to elect people friendly with hardliners.

We could try armed occupation, but let's not. It has been a rough decade for that.

We could try overthrowing leadership and replacing them with who we think will be dedicated to governance, as opposed to rule - but again, this has historically not worked out awesomely for all involved.

We could leave them alone, but that's a bit callous and doesn't really solve the problem for people currently living there.

So you see, the dilemma is something of an oscillation among those positions, and no one of them has borne any better fruit than the previous attempt(s). You can see why there's sudden interest in not "solving the underlying problem" and only dealing with its consequences.

In America, all we can really do is fight extremism where we see it. When we start thinking outside our borders is when shiat goes to fark at light speed.
 
2013-04-23 12:37:12 PM  

Tatsuma: EWreckedSean: Can you source that please?

Sure

http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-cont en ts/what-makes-a-terrorist
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/bruce-hoffman/todays-highly-educate d- terrorists-4080
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/magazine/12FOB-IdeaLab-t.html?scp= 1& sq=Berreby&st=cse
http://www.nber.org/digest/sep02/w9074.html

and the list goes on and on and on. It's a myth that getting them out of poverty, and giving them access to comfortable lifestyles and education will curb terrorism. The answer lies elsewhere.

By the way in Canada yesterday they arrested two Al Qaeda members for planning a terrorist attack. One of them was once again an engineer with many many diplomas


Those "studies" are all about terrorists who make it to the West to do their deeds - a tiny fraction of terrorists as a whole. Of course those terrorists have money and skills - they couldn't operate outside the third world if they didn't. They represent a tiny fraction of radical Islam.
 
2013-04-23 12:38:03 PM  

Itstoearly:
Or Fark, when talking about Republicans or Christians?


Any group, that's sort of my point. Republicans, Democrats, Iberia Airline pilots, anyone who can identify a solid "us" and "them" and knows in their heart that WE are right, and THEY are wrong, and every single thing they see just gets their blood boiling about how bad THEY are. It doesn't USUALLY escalate to violence, normally it manifests itself in various derp and whargarbl, but now and then someone, probably someone about half crazy to begin with, gets the idea to build a bomb, or shoot up a place, or whatever.
 
2013-04-23 12:38:32 PM  

Tatsuma: Al Qaeda members


That may be a bit of a reach.  Sympathizers, yes.  Members, really?
 
2013-04-23 12:40:41 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Tatsuma: KellyX: Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

*sigh*

That's the hard part, isn't it?

Well, we could try and export democracy and the idea of secular self-rule, but it turns out, that's part of the reason radicalization happens. And even if that does take hold, the people tend to elect people friendly with hardliners.

We could try armed occupation, but let's not. It has been a rough decade for that.

We could try overthrowing leadership and replacing them with who we think will be dedicated to governance, as opposed to rule - but again, this has historically not worked out awesomely for all involved.

We could leave them alone, but that's a bit callous and doesn't really solve the problem for people currently living there.

So you see, the dilemma is something of an oscillation among those positions, and no one of them has borne any better fruit than the previous attempt(s). You can see why there's sudden interest in not "solving the underlying problem" and only dealing with its consequences.

In America, all we can really do is fight extremism where we see it. When we start thinking outside our borders is when shiat goes to fark at light speed.


This - "terrorism" is a reality of modern life, and all we can do is minimize the already miniscule risk it poses to us. If all radical Islam vanished tomorrow, by magic - we would still have "terrorism" aplenty. But it is about as likely to harm any of us as lighting strikes - find something else to piss and moan about.
 
2013-04-23 12:41:15 PM  

jso2897: Those "studies" are all about terrorists who make it to the West to do their deeds - a tiny fraction of terrorists as a whole. Of course those terrorists have money and skills - they couldn't operate outside the third world if they didn't. They represent a tiny fraction of radical Islam.


The same is true in Pakistan and Afghanistan as well.

This is not an old concept, I believe Aristotle himself said that only a wealthy land-owning man could be a philosopher because he's the only one who has time to sit and think in the first place.
 
2013-04-23 12:41:41 PM  

corronchilejano: I'm sorry but how is a casserole a weapon of mass destruction?


It's made out of Taco Bell leftovers and cocaine.
 
2013-04-23 12:41:59 PM  
Tatsuma:  4 out of 5 Al Qaeda victims are Muslims. Yes, even including the thousands who died at the World Trade Center.

In fact by on killing non-Muslims they went against the grain of their organization.


I don't think this gets emphasized enough.
 
2013-04-23 12:42:02 PM  

Kentucky Fried Panda: That may be a bit of a reach. Sympathizers, yes. Members, really?


The RCMP said that they were in constant contact and being directed by Al Qaeda elements in Iran.

If being in constant contact and being directed is not being a member, what is?
 
2013-04-23 12:42:31 PM  

EWreckedSean: How often do we hear Muslim leaders calling for jihad?


Well? And what's the percentage of the overall Saturday Mornin' Imams doing it worldwide, considering there's a billion or so Muslins out there.

I'll tell you this much: Back in my Christian days I attended a fairly large (for Metro DC) Episcopal church. This church was attended by many of the flunkies of the George W Bush administration. W'd just taken office when I was attending this church. The church grew more "Dominionist", with the pastor, previously a very reasonable, thoughtful guy, saying that as Christians in the Federal Government, we should be guided by the Holy Spirit to bring about God's Law for America. For how can God bless America if we allow the Fed to approve Teh Ghey, Abortions, Evolutions, all that paganny kind of heathen savagery.

This was not some podunk uncle-humper church in the backwoods. This was not some remote congregation of 6 people meeting in some prairie tool shed under the leadership of a self-ordained Evangelical Minister. This was a well-heeled Episcopal church inside the Beltway, not 10 miles from Homeland's Capitol Building. Admonishing believers to put Conservative Christian, "Bible-based" principles before the Constitution, in order to gain the blessing of Christian BibleGod.

Granted, there was no talk of killing anyone or blowing up buildings, but the end result of undermining the Constitution of the United States, a secular institution, and replacing it with a theocracy remained the same.
 
2013-04-23 12:43:03 PM  
Be thankful the bombers were not connected to the Tea Party. Can you imagine all the people blathering on about how they were extremists and not representative of Tea Party values?

Then, they'd probably be rolling out charts and such on all the acts of terror committed by Muslims, as though that somehow justified or excused the Boston Tea Party bombings.

We dodged one there, folks.
 
2013-04-23 12:43:08 PM  

enik: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because only Christians, whites and gun owners can be denigrated by the media. It's in their handbook.


Let Jesus have a turn at the cross! You are spending too much time on it!
 
2013-04-23 12:43:46 PM  

bluefox3681: Hickory-smoked: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

Most Americans still don't know anything about Muslims aside from news stories like this and what they're told by Nationalistic websites. Ask any Islamic American who was here at the time how their lives were changed by 9/11, and you would have been praying Boston was unrelated too.

Oh please.  We don't have to try and find an equivalent evil in every culture as if that makes it all ok and equal.  7% of American muslims think that suicide bombings are justified.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/30/muslim-american-moderate-vi ew -survey_n_942555.html

Why don't we have more hand wringing about the 200,000 muslims in this country that are probably radicalized?


Just for context, here's the paragraph you're referring to:

As in 2007, very few Muslim Americans - just 1% - say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are often justified to defend Islam from its enemies; an additional 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified in these circumstances. Fully 81% say that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians are never justified.

Personally, I wonder if phrased the same way there wouldn't be 7% of Christians who give similar answers if they thought Christianity was being attacked... but that wasn't my point. The point is we should ask if the potential for militancy has more to do with the basic tenets of a religion, or current global politics. I think the latter is more likely, and handwringing about Muslims and racially profiling them isn't likely to help that.
 
2013-04-23 12:45:01 PM  
I blame the subliminal messages in Rock and Roll.
 
2013-04-23 12:45:07 PM  

Bondith: Resident Muslim: The question then remains of where do you draw the line? The Islamic scholars differ in this, an luckily enough in mainstream Islam you do not have one governing body, not even the Muftis* of Saudi Arabia, so you have the option of listening to different religious viewpoints a making a conscious decision which makes sense to you**, or if they all make sense (or all don't) people usually adopt the viewpoint of the scholar they've felt comfortable with before in terms of how he thinks.

So you're encouraged to engage your brain and do some common-sense thinking?  I may have to revise my previous statement.


First of all, hats off for having an open mind and being open to differing viewpoints.

I really believe that Islam is based on common sense. Based on logic. Questioning your faith is a good thing when you find out that you are getting answers.

I know that this is Fark, and people are already typing invisible-sky-wizard as I type, that religion is NOT common sense.
However when you see all the SCIENTIFIC thing that had to come together for life to exist on this planet it is nothing but miraculous, mind-blowing if you will. Watch the discovery channel or any science channel and chances are that in any 24 hour period you'd hear the phrase "and if it wasn't for ____ life wouldn't be able to exist on earth" (granted, maybe "life as we know it, but I'll rephrase that to YOU wouldn't exist on earth).
Examples:
-oxygen being heavier than other gases so we can breathe
-UV/sunbursts getting deflected from earth or absorbed
-meteors burning up in the atmosphere
-water being the only thing that expands when it freezes, (I think) therefore it floats and protects the animals underneath thereby sustaining life

I know there are many people who scoff at 'intelligent design' but at what point do you go "hmm, this is kinda fishy..."

I'm sure any more knowledgable resident scientist/doctor on Fark can give even more examples whether or not they are religious.

/ps if you think old wisdom/science in the pyramids freaky, google science + Quran
//sorry for the double posts, on mobile (and still typing out a bunch of stuff, so sorry)
///slash my heart
 
2013-04-23 12:45:08 PM  

Tatsuma: Kentucky Fried Panda: That may be a bit of a reach. Sympathizers, yes. Members, really?

The RCMP said that they were in constant contact and being directed by Al Qaeda elements in Iran.

If being in constant contact and being directed is not being a member, what is?


Well, they obviously were not at the weekly Al Qaeda meetings....  Sort of far from the flagpole, don't ya think?  Which, I believe is more concerning....
 
2013-04-23 12:45:10 PM  

Tatsuma: jso2897: Those "studies" are all about terrorists who make it to the West to do their deeds - a tiny fraction of terrorists as a whole. Of course those terrorists have money and skills - they couldn't operate outside the third world if they didn't. They represent a tiny fraction of radical Islam.

The same is true in Pakistan and Afghanistan as well.

This is not an old concept, I believe Aristotle himself said that only a wealthy land-owning man could be a philosopher because he's the only one who has time to sit and think in the first place.


Well, I'll grant you the obvious - a bloody-minded lunatic with money is more dangerous than one without it.
And we can't count on affluence to fix everything wrong with the human soul either - if we could, Paris Hilton and Kim Kardassian would be great spiritual and philosophical leaders, and Donald Trump a great statesman.
 
2013-04-23 12:48:16 PM  
doubled99:
A) Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
B) History always repeats itself.

C) No one learns anything, ever.

D) Profit??

D) Prophet??
 
2013-04-23 12:52:08 PM  
Personally I was hoping from the start it was Islam, but not as anything against Islam. I just didn't want to have the media create yet another new bogeyman under the bed.
 
2013-04-23 12:54:03 PM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity.


What exactly is "mainstream Christianity"?  There may have been a time when "mainstream" Christianity in the USA was something that didn't conflict with the empirical sciences, didn't affect your life much from Monday through Saturday, had no issues with church-state separation, and wasn't taken very seriously even by many of its ostensible members, but that is not the case now.  Whether the religious right are a numerical majority of Christians or not, they are the ones that "count" as far as trashing our educational system and controlling one of our country's two political parties.  Similarly, it is the violent Muslims who "count" irregardless of how many laid back, whishy-washy Muslims may also exist.
 
2013-04-23 12:54:13 PM  
Man, Christians are really falling down on the job of committing atrocities. I mean, Fark clearly demonstrates every few days that Christians are just as bad as Muslims and are just as likely to kill innocents at any moment. But for decades lazy Christians have generally failed to live up to their mandate to terrorize civilizations the world over. Yeah, there were nine abortion clinic attacks over 20 years, but that's really not good enough, Christians. Come on, step up your game! Make with the horror and bloodshed!
 
2013-04-23 12:56:54 PM  

Magorn: I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.



I don't know Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, so does that mean I can't ever read a Bible?
 
2013-04-23 12:57:14 PM  

flondrix: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity.

What exactly is "mainstream Christianity"?  There may have been a time when "mainstream" Christianity in the USA was something that didn't conflict with the empirical sciences, didn't affect your life much from Monday through Saturday, had no issues with church-state separation, and wasn't taken very seriously even by many of its ostensible members, but that is not the case now.  Whether the religious right are a numerical majority of Christians or not, they are the ones that "count" as far as trashing our educational system and controlling one of our country's two political parties.  Similarly, it is the violent Muslims who "count" irregardless of how many laid back, whishy-washy Muslims may also exist.


Did you actually write "irregardless"?
 
2013-04-23 01:02:35 PM  

flondrix: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity.

What exactly is "mainstream Christianity"?  There may have been a time when "mainstream" Christianity in the USA was something that didn't conflict with the empirical sciences, didn't affect your life much from Monday through Saturday, had no issues with church-state separation, and wasn't taken very seriously even by many of its ostensible members, but that is not the case now.  Whether the religious right are a numerical majority of Christians or not, they are the ones that "count" as far as trashing our educational system and controlling one of our country's two political parties.  Similarly, it is the violent Muslims who "count" irregardless of how many laid back, whishy-washy Muslims may also exist.


I find it funny that when it comes to religion, the minority represents the majority and yet when it comes to virtually anything else, especially race, any sort of sample group even the majority does not represent the whole. Even funnier than that is you have people claiming Christianity is all that is wrong with America citing Westboro etc. as representative of the "mainstream", and yet chastising people for claiming Islam is a violent religion due to the actions of a select group of individuals.
 
2013-04-23 01:04:29 PM  

FlashHarry: PC LOAD LETTER: Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI

Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.

BZZZT you're both wrong. most domestic terrorists - the ones who actually harm or kill other americans - are of the right wing variety.


Ran a percentage on the 46 cases of radical Islamic terror events in your cited article, vs. the 275 cases of right-wing terror events.  Then referenced this  http://www.alternet.org/story/149561/americans_are_far_less_conservat i ve_than_the_right_wing_claims article to extrapolate a fairly correct number of "right-wingers, placing right-wingers at 32,760,000 of the American population vs. 2,6000,000 Muslims in America, figure lifted from this  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138365/The-changing-face-rel i gious-America-Number-Muslims-U-S-doubles-9-11-Mormonism-spreads-East-C oast.html article.

Interestingly, the percentages of attacks relative to populations are not too totally different.  For right-wingers, the attack percentage is 0000083% of population, vs. Muslim attack percentage of 000017.6% of population.

Right-wingers not quite as nasty as Islamists, statistically, in the number of douchebags (there's an extra zero for right-wingers,right thar in the calculations), but I'm comforted to see all the zeros in front of each percentage.

Time for lunch. DON'T PANIC. Terrists NOT errywhere...
 
2013-04-23 01:04:30 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Man, Christians are really falling down on the job of committing atrocities. I mean, Fark clearly demonstrates every few days that Christians are just as bad as Muslims and are just as likely to kill innocents at any moment. But for decades lazy Christians have generally failed to live up to their mandate to terrorize civilizations the world over. Yeah, there were nine abortion clinic attacks over 20 years, but that's really not good enough, Christians. Come on, step up your game! Make with the horror and bloodshed!


When you have pointless discussions about things that don't matter, you are free to evaluate them from any perspective you wish. Human beings are emotionally very bad at risk assessment, and spend a lot of time wringing their hands about things that don't really matter very much.
 
2013-04-23 01:06:11 PM  

Draskuul: Personally I was hoping from the start it was Islam, but not as anything against Islam. I just didn't want to have the media create yet another new bogeyman under the bed.


I thought it was Muslim extremists at the start, though the tea party idea made some sense at the time.

backing up a bit...
as a Catholic, I disagree with some people on death penalty (we shouldn't have such a thing), and others on abortion (fetal viability definition is so arbitrary, why not leave infants to die also? they are parasitic, so why only embrace one vile practice?).

the child abuse issue leaves a black mark on us all, as Catholics. I didn't abuse any kids, but you wonder what you would have done, had you known. it is a strain that won't disappear, and why should people think otherwise?

I think this radical terrorism may be a similar black mark on all of Islam. it's as much of the common knowledge of Islam as anything else anyone knows about Islam, just as any Catholic thing here is about child rape. the stain does not go away so easily.

you prove it every day, I guess. there is no easy way to take off the black mark. just prove it every day.

/ okay, back to my regular trolling
 
2013-04-23 01:07:15 PM  

give me doughnuts: I don't know Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, so does that mean I can't ever read a Bible?


Properly read the Hebrew Bible? Not really, no. Certainly not with a mere translation, at the very least.

If you get a commentary like the Artscroll Chumash or with Rashi, you'll be close, but that's only the first five books.

If you really wanted to read the whole thing and understand what it says, you would need to buy something like this:

i.imgur.com

That'd be nearly 30 books to cover everything after the 5 books of Moses.

/They don't call us 'People of the Books' for nothing
 
2013-04-23 01:08:14 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: flondrix: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity.

What exactly is "mainstream Christianity"?  There may have been a time when "mainstream" Christianity in the USA was something that didn't conflict with the empirical sciences, didn't affect your life much from Monday through Saturday, had no issues with church-state separation, and wasn't taken very seriously even by many of its ostensible members, but that is not the case now.  Whether the religious right are a numerical majority of Christians or not, they are the ones that "count" as far as trashing our educational system and controlling one of our country's two political parties.  Similarly, it is the violent Muslims who "count" irregardless of how many laid back, whishy-washy Muslims may also exist.

I find it funny that when it comes to religion, the minority represents the majority and yet when it comes to virtually anything else, especially race, any sort of sample group even the majority does not represent the whole. Even funnier than that is you have people claiming Christianity is all that is wrong with America citing Westboro etc. as representative of the "mainstream", and yet chastising people for claiming Islam is a violent religion due to the actions of a select group of individuals.


Bigotry of any kind is "barnyard collectivism" - you can't expect intellectual consistency from those who advocate it.
 
2013-04-23 01:12:50 PM  

give me doughnuts: Magorn: I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.


I don't know Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, so does that mean I can't ever read a Bible?


well, the Koran is the literal Word of God, for believers.

a benefit of xian reformation was scripture in vernacular, so that those who could not read Latin could still read valid scripture in the common tongue.

part of the terrorism issue is literacy amongst Muslims, but scripture was only one part of the reformation.
 
2013-04-23 01:14:17 PM  

Hickory-smoked: The point is we should ask if the potential for militancy has more to do with the basic tenets of a religion, or current global politics. I think the latter is more likely, and handwringing about Muslims and racially profiling them isn't likely to help that.


I'm guessing you think the tenets have nothing to do with the potential for militancy?  I also guess that it doesn't alarm you that the world's 1.6 billion Muslims have produced only two Nobel laureates in chemistry and physics; the worlds Jews, one hundred times less numerous, have produced 79.  Some of us think that the religious faith itself, or at least it's leadership, might have a bearing on behavior.  According to the Economist magazine,  the Saudi government supports books for Islamic schools such as "The Unchallengeable Miracles of the Qur'an: The Facts That Can't Be Denied By Science" suggesting an inherent conflict between belief and reason.

I know, I know, you'll say Christian fundies just as bad, and I'll say no they're not.
 
2013-04-23 01:14:35 PM  

jso2897: Bigotry of any kind is "barnyard collectivism"


Can you dumb this down for me?  I'm not tracking....
 
2013-04-23 01:15:17 PM  

Bith Set Me Up: Did you actually write "irregardless"?


Whether you use "regardless" or "irregardless", there will always be someone eager to point out why you should use the other one.
 
2013-04-23 01:15:31 PM  

Tatsuma: So yeah, maybe you should think about doing your homework on this.


Says the guy who earlier claimed that the Tsarnaevs were "born in Chechnya"...

Neither brother ever set foot on Chechen soil.
 
2013-04-23 01:17:23 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: Even funnier than that is you have people claiming Christianity is all that is wrong with America citing Westboro etc. as representative of the "mainstream", and yet chastising people for claiming Islam is a violent religion due to the actions of a select group of individuals.


Not me.  I claim that the violent assholes are the relevant, most influential subset of any religion.  The people who don't do much don't count.
 
2013-04-23 01:23:23 PM  

Kentucky Fried Panda: jso2897: Bigotry of any kind is "barnyard collectivism"

Can you dumb this down for me?  I'm not tracking....


Lifted from an old Ayn Rand quote: "The racist is a "barnyard collectivist" - he possesses a mentality that is just capable of distinguishing between different breeds of animals, but not between individual human beings". (or something pretty close to that) And, yes, I know Rand was a loon - but even a broken clock etc., etc.
 
2013-04-23 01:24:07 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-23 01:24:19 PM  

mangeybear: I know, I know, you'll say Christian fundies just as bad, and I'll say no they're not.


"Just as bad"? Who knows. I just don't think it matters. As the people of oklahoma city and boston know, one of each is plenty. Are we only allowed to choose one kind of idiotic fundamentalist moron to focus on? The huge terrorist events are obviously horrible and must be a focus but on a day to day level each variety is regularly involved in your garden variety subjugation of women, book burning, etc, all of which are damaging to the state at large.
 
2013-04-23 01:24:22 PM  

Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity


Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?
 
2013-04-23 01:25:24 PM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


Crazy knows no race, creed, color, political affiliation, background, socioeconomic status, gender, etc. Crazy is just crazy.
 
2013-04-23 01:27:47 PM  

give me doughnuts: Magorn: I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.

I don't know Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, so does that mean I can't ever read a Bible?


For any given religion, the True Believers will tell you that only the original language is valid.  Others will tell you that a translation is okay to begin with, but that eventually you need to read the texts in the original language in order to fully understand/appreciate/grok the meanings.

This gets a little trickier when dealing with the Koran, where the belief is that the text is the literal word of God.  Not the Facebook sense of literal, but the literal this-is-a-word-for-word-transcript like a court recorder Word of God.  And given that, a "translation" become something less than holy.

Most of us Christians are only dimly aware of the issues involved, since we don't even have the original texts, only copies of copies of copies.  Don't even get me started on the jackass Texas politician.  "English uz good enuf fer Jesus, it shud be good enuf fer the skoolchildren of Texas!"
 
2013-04-23 01:28:12 PM  

JohnBigBootay: mangeybear: I know, I know, you'll say Christian fundies just as bad, and I'll say no they're not.

"Just as bad"? Who knows. I just don't think it matters. As the people of oklahoma city and boston know, one of each is plenty. Are we only allowed to choose one kind of idiotic fundamentalist moron to focus on? The huge terrorist events are obviously horrible and must be a focus but on a day to day level each variety is regularly involved in your garden variety subjugation of women, book burning, etc, all of which are damaging to the state at large.


Seeing as how a drunk or texting driver is several thousand times more likely to kill or maim me than either, I'll take a pass on that debate as well.
 
2013-04-23 01:28:16 PM  

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?
 
2013-04-23 01:30:03 PM  

give me doughnuts: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity

Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?


Yes.  Try harder.
 
2013-04-23 01:32:20 PM  

Deucednuisance: Says the guy who earlier claimed that the Tsarnaevs were "born in Chechnya"...


Yeah I said that after the news immediately came out and everyone said they were Chechns who came to live in America. Since then I've realized that it's not the case. Way to be a nitpicking asshole.
 
2013-04-23 01:32:27 PM  

JohnBigBootay: mangeybear: I know, I know, you'll say Christian fundies just as bad, and I'll say no they're not.

"Just as bad"? Who knows. I just don't think it matters. As the people of oklahoma city and boston know, one of each is plenty. Are we only allowed to choose one kind of idiotic fundamentalist moron to focus on? The huge terrorist events are obviously horrible and must be a focus but on a day to day level each variety is regularly involved in your garden variety subjugation of women, book burning, etc, all of which are damaging to the state at large.


Uh you do realize OKC had nothing to do religion?  And you are absolutely clueless if you think Christianity is anywhere close to level of garbage in the Arab world about women's rights (more of a culture thing and less religion)
 
2013-04-23 01:33:45 PM  
jso2897:
[...] "terrorism" is a reality of modern life, and all we can do is minimize the already miniscule risk it poses to us. If all radical Islam vanished tomorrow, by magic - we would still have "terrorism" aplenty. But it is about as likely to harm any of us as lighting strikes - find something else to piss and moan about.

Hasn't "terrorism" always been a term of propaganda?
 
2013-04-23 01:33:53 PM  

over_and_done: give me doughnuts: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity

Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?

Yes.  Try harder.


Justify your answer using quotes and commentary from the Qur'an and the hadith. To steal a phrase: Try harder.
 
2013-04-23 01:35:07 PM  

KellyX: Tatsuma: KellyX: What exactly is "energy independent"?

Does that really mean when we no longer need to use oil anymore?

A mix of lots of electric cars/hybrid and drilling at home. We also need to get Europe on the same bandwagon.

If you cut the oil money from the Middle-East, a lot of that shiat will die down.

But it's all sold on the international market, even all the oil the US or the EU pumps up... It's not as if it's finders keepers going on.

Literally to be independent of Saudi/Middle Eastern oil we'd have to flat out stop using oil to the degree that it'd only be needed for stuff like lubrication (which we can make synthetics do better) or making plastics, thereby make the value go down so much that they'd not be getting as rich off it.


True its sold on an open market. But overall decrease in demand would lessen overall money to the middle east. It would make oil less valuable and less likely people would fight over it.

Not only that, the oil embargo showed just how dependent we are.
 
2013-04-23 01:35:16 PM  
i.imgur.com


Crazy is crazy. Fundamentalist is fundamentalist.

IT DOESN'T FARKING MATTER.

Focus on the individuals responsible. Personal responsibility trumps religion. Always. Always. Always. No exceptions.
 
2013-04-23 01:36:57 PM  

CoonAce: jso2897:
[...] "terrorism" is a reality of modern life, and all we can do is minimize the already miniscule risk it poses to us. If all radical Islam vanished tomorrow, by magic - we would still have "terrorism" aplenty. But it is about as likely to harm any of us as lighting strikes - find something else to piss and moan about.

Hasn't "terrorism" always been a term of propaganda?



It's based on point of view. Kinda like the difference between "revolutionary" and "traitor."
 
2013-04-23 01:37:02 PM  

over_and_done: give me doughnuts: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity

Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?

Yes.  Try harder.


Then again - can any of us really be said to be "innocent"?
i18.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-23 01:37:36 PM  
 
2013-04-23 01:37:49 PM  

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


It's not covering for Islam. It's the fear that peabrained bigots will go apeshiat again and cheer us into another horrific Oil War because TERROR. Incidentally I'm glad you woke from your 12 year coma. You have some catching up to do.
 
2013-04-23 01:38:35 PM  

give me doughnuts: over_and_done: give me doughnuts: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity

Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?

Yes.  Try harder.

Justify your answer using quotes and commentary from the Qur'an and the hadith. To steal a phrase: Try harder.


You did notice that I put it in quotes, I presume.
 
2013-04-23 01:38:50 PM  

flondrix: the money is in the banana stand: Even funnier than that is you have people claiming Christianity is all that is wrong with America citing Westboro etc. as representative of the "mainstream", and yet chastising people for claiming Islam is a violent religion due to the actions of a select group of individuals.

Not me.  I claim that the violent assholes are the relevant, most influential subset of any religion.  The people who don't do much don't count.


Using that philosophy, let's say I say this:

Not me.  I claim that the violent assholes are the relevant, most influential subset of any race.  The people who don't do much don't count.

You would call me a racist right? How is that any different when applied to religion?
 
2013-04-23 01:39:41 PM  

give me doughnuts: Magorn: I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.


I don't know Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, so does that mean I can't ever read a Bible?


No because we fought long religious wars over the translation of the bible into the "vulgar" a along time ago, and now the bible is translated into nearly every language on earth, in fact the is a group of evangelists who are so devoted to this task that they try to make contact with indigenous peoples who don;t HAVE a written language, just so they can create one for them and translate the Bible into it.  Islam, however, like Judaism doesn't allow their sacred scriptures to be translated out of the original language.   Thus is you don't speak Hebrew you have not actually read THE Holy Torah (in fact they make kinda a big deal out of the first time a boy does this at temple..you may have heard of this) and if you cannot read classical Arabic you have never read the Koran.  In fact it is generally considered the vilest blasphemy imaginable to translate it into any other language.
 
2013-04-23 01:39:50 PM  

Tatsuma: And guys stop saying that they were converts to Islam. They were not. They came from non-religious backgrounds but they were still Muslims and identified as such. It's just that they became more religious in the recent years. A convert to Islam would be someone who was born Hindu or non-Religious or a Buddhist and then decided to embrace Islam, not a bunch of guys who were born in Chechnya and went to Islamic schools when they were young.


What farking difference does it make?
 
2013-04-23 01:40:31 PM  

Magorn: brandent: nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".

The difference between radical violent Christians and radical violent Islamists is simple.  If a person reads the New Testament and adheres strictly to the teachings of Jesus then they would soon come to the conclusion that they are pacifist and probably socialist and defenders of tolerance, love, and inclusion.  If a person reads the teachings of Mohammed and follows them strictly then they would soon come to the conclusion that it is a doctrine of violence and intolerance.

I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.   I'm also going to guess that your in-depth study of Islam involves watching TV and movies and listening to the opinions of right-wing columnists, radio ...


Not at all.  I make the same claim for Judaism.  Strict adherence requires violence.  It is commanded in the Old Testament.  The New Testament has no such violence or requirement and rejects such things.  Islam also requires violence toward non-believers.  Jesus made no threats of violence or suggestions but in fact the opposite.
 
2013-04-23 01:40:37 PM  

LavenderWolf: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?


Well that makes it okay then!
 
2013-04-23 01:40:44 PM  

Tatsuma: Way to be a nitpicking asshole.


Says the nitpicking asshole.

C'mon, dude.  That's your whole farking shtick.

Talk about a hanging curveball....
 
2013-04-23 01:44:57 PM  
Why am I having trouble believing anything CNN says anymore?
 
2013-04-23 01:46:46 PM  

thunderbird8804: LavenderWolf: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?

Well that makes it okay then!


Because no matter how many times you tell people, people will associate the scumbags like the one in Boston to all Muslims in general.

Yes, radical Islam is bad but so is radical Christianity, radical Judaism, etc.

But yet we don't associate all Christians with abortion clinic bombers and we don't actively try to prevent a church from being built.

If people are going to treat all Muslims like the guys in Boston, why can't I treat all Christians like Eric Rudolph?
 
2013-04-23 01:47:56 PM  

Bondith: Preliminary interviews with Dzhokhar Tsarnaev indicate the two brothers fit the classification of self-radicalized jihadists, the source said. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, wounded and held in a Boston hospital, said his brother wanted to defend Islam from attack, according to the source.

...by making people want to attack it?

/religious thought is nonsensical
//batshiat insane fundamentalist thought even more so


Well, in the last few years I've seen newspapers, the daily show, hell even South farking Park kowtow to islam by refusing to show a farking drawing of muhammed, for fear of the violent reaction of it's peaceful followers. Id' say they've been quite successful at 'defending' it.
 
2013-04-23 01:49:49 PM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


Perhaps not all of them but enough for me to no longer care what happens to the anemic remains of their once planet spanning empire.Leave me and mine to get on with the business of developing/fixing our culture; let them bathe in the husk of their dead caliphate.  They don't like it... let THEM FIX IT.

/The Great made Low by this mind-virus.
 
2013-04-23 01:53:14 PM  

Magorn: give me doughnuts: Magorn: I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.


I don't know Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, so does that mean I can't ever read a Bible?

No because we fought long religious wars over the translation of the bible into the "vulgar" a along time ago, and now the bible is translated into nearly every language on earth, in fact the is a group of evangelists who are so devoted to this task that they try to make contact with indigenous peoples who don;t HAVE a written language, just so they can create one for them and translate the Bible into it.  Islam, however, like Judaism doesn't allow their sacred scriptures to be translated out of the original language.   Thus is you don't speak Hebrew you have not actually read THE Holy Torah (in fact they make kinda a big deal out of the first time a boy does this at temple..you may have heard of this) and if you cannot read classical Arabic you have never read the Koran.  In fact it is generally considered the vilest blasphemy imaginable to translate it into any other language.


A majority of Muslims on the planet don't know Arabic.
An even larger percentage don't know Classical Arabic.
There are translations of the Qur'an in over 100 languages. None of them are considered "blasphemy."
 
2013-04-23 01:54:43 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-23 01:59:53 PM  

sheep snorter: [i.imgur.com image 500x333]


Don't disrespect Trailer Park Jesus.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-23 02:04:17 PM  

nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".


First, any right minded human doesn't blame all Muslims for the acts of the few that create terror.

Unlike those who continually try to link "tea party" rallies to violence.

Please - do tell us of all the incidents linked to the Tea Party.

Go ahead - we'll wait...
 
2013-04-23 02:05:58 PM  
mamoru:
Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


Just because a gun owner flipped out and shot up a school doesn't mean that all gun owners are insane and coming to kill you.

Does it work for the 2nd Amendment, too?
 
2013-04-23 02:07:34 PM  
It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males
 
2013-04-23 02:07:36 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: You would call me a racist right? How is that any different when applied to religion?


You can quit a religion.  It's not genetic.

(Yes, I am bigoted against religion--all of them equally.)
 
2013-04-23 02:09:30 PM  

give me doughnuts: There are translations of the Qur'an in over 100 languages. None of them are considered "blasphemy."


He's also wrong about Jews forbidding translation of the Torah (the reason it's a big deal when a kid first reads it is because it's the first time he gets to lead the service as the community's representative). Orthodox, Hasidic and other ultra-observant groups fund translations into English, Yiddish, Arabic and pretty much every other language on Earf.

Maybe it was correct a thousand years ago or more (supposedly, the day the Torah was translated into Greek was a great tragedy, but even the Talmud argues that it made the text more accessible to lay folk), but these days, every holy book can be found translated into every major dialect.
 
2013-04-23 02:10:33 PM  

MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males



You're not really good at counting, are you?
 
2013-04-23 02:16:13 PM  

give me doughnuts: MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males


You're not really good at counting, are you?


Oh, was the older idiot slightly above age 24?  Whatever.  You've avoided the point while being technically correct on the internet.  This means you are a special, intelligent person who is completely unlike everyone else on the internet.  Your mother must be very proud.
 
2013-04-23 02:16:36 PM  

Dr Dreidel: He's also wrong about Jews forbidding translation of the Torah (the reason it's a big deal when a kid first reads it is because it's the first time he gets to lead the service as the community's representative). Orthodox, Hasidic and other ultra-observant groups fund translations into English, Yiddish, Arabic and pretty much every other language on Earf.

Maybe it was correct a thousand years ago or more (supposedly, the day the Torah was translated into Greek was a great tragedy, but even the Talmud argues that it made the text more accessible to lay folk), but these days, every holy book can be found translated into every major dialect.


Well once the door is opened, its opened. However:

- When the Torah was first translated into Greek, they decreed a fast day that lasted for centuries before the number of Rabbinical fast days had to be reduced. It was considered a tragedy that forever darkened the world. When we see how it was then used by xians to commit atrocities during centuries, not too hard to understand why

- Hebrew is the only language that is considered to be truly holy, and while translations are accepted because, well the floodgates are opened anyway, the fact is that the main language of teaching and learning is still in Hebrew. Go to any Yeshiva, even for Baalei Teshuva, and they will teach you using your language + Hebrew and tell you you really need to learn Hebrew to properly study
 
2013-04-23 02:18:21 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: UNC_Samurai: I'm totally cool with Quakers.



I don't trust the Quakers: they gave us Nixon.


Beat out ghandi for the Nobel peace prize, too
 
2013-04-23 02:22:20 PM  

IlGreven: On that subject (and risking bringing the gun-nuts in), didja ever notice that the blame game on stuff like metal, rap, D&D, videogames, teh ghey, etc. for school shootings et al came after the 2nd Amendment uber-alles nuts came into power in the NRA? Or, in other words, "blame everything but the guns"?


It was comics in the 1950s. It was talkies in the 1930s. It was booze in the 1920s. How far back do you want to chart the social ills of the age before you run into a weak NRA?
 
2013-04-23 02:25:54 PM  

Tatsuma: Go to any Yeshiva, even for Baalei Teshuva, and they will teach you using your language + Hebrew and tell you you really need to learn Hebrew to properly study


Been there, and every rabbi I ever had (even the Israeli ones) taught in English (but I was in America or at a yeshiva for American students). In order to study a text, any scholar would tell you that learning the native language is preferable to studying a translation. Who was it who said "Translation is interpretation"? Also, when it comes to memorization, "breaking your teeth on it" (as Rabbi Krakauer shiata used to say) makes it far more "sticky" than simply hearing it in your lingua franca.

Hey, remember in (I wanna say gemara Sanhedrin) where they discuss whether it's OK for the mitargum to read every section behind the reader? (I may be botching the discussion or location.) The whole point was that people were losing the ability to understand the actual text, and that having it translated would at the least provide the lessons of the text, if not the text itself.

The legend of the septuagint and the history of it, I feel, have a large gulf separating them.
 
2013-04-23 02:29:17 PM  

This text is now purple: IlGreven: On that subject (and risking bringing the gun-nuts in), didja ever notice that the blame game on stuff like metal, rap, D&D, videogames, teh ghey, etc. for school shootings et al came after the 2nd Amendment uber-alles nuts came into power in the NRA? Or, in other words, "blame everything but the guns"?

It was comics in the 1950s. It was talkies in the 1930s. It was booze in the 1920s. How far back do you want to chart the social ills of the age before you run into a weak NRA?


It's a widely-known fact that notable gun enthusiast and PMRC member Tipper Gore was paid under the table by then-NRA president Charlton Heston to focus on music at the expense of the influence of guns regarding the increase in student tardiness, bad attitudes, and inventive youth slang terms in the 1980's.
 
2013-04-23 02:30:17 PM  

Mrtraveler01: thunderbird8804: LavenderWolf: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?

Well that makes it okay then!

Because no matter how many times you tell people, people will associate the scumbags like the one in Boston to all Muslims in general.


Again, well that makes it okay then!

Yes, radical Islam is bad but so is radical Christianity, radical Judaism, etc.

Don't give me this false equivalence nonsense.  The difference in degree between radical Islam and radical every other religion at this point in time is so extreme that to my mind it has to constitute a difference of kind.

But yet we don't associate all Christians with abortion clinic bombers and we don't actively try to prevent a church from being built.

If people are going to treat all Muslims like the guys in Boston, why can't I treat all Christians like Eric Rudolph?


Because you know that's stupid, stop being so glib.

/And relevant expansion on this by Hitchens
//And Harris
 
2013-04-23 02:30:36 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Been there, and every rabbi I ever had (even the Israeli ones) taught in English (but I was in America or at a yeshiva for American students). In order to study a text, any scholar would tell you that learning the native language is preferable to studying a translation. Who was it who said "Translation is interpretation"? Also, when it comes to memorization, "breaking your teeth on it" (as Rabbi Krakauer shiata used to say) makes it far more "sticky" than simply hearing it in your lingua franca.


I'm sure that they were teaching in English. I'm in (break from) Yeshiva in Israel, and we learn in English. None of the texts in front of us are in English, however, and I highly doubt you studied them in English either.

Dr Dreidel: Hey, remember in (I wanna say gemara Sanhedrin) where they discuss whether it's OK for the mitargum to read every section behind the reader? (I may be botching the discussion or location.) The whole point was that people were losing the ability to understand the actual text, and that having it translated would at the least provide the lessons of the text, if not the text itself.


That would only be in relation with Torah readings in order that they understand what was happening, not teaching.

I'm not saying that *teaching* in any language is forbidden and bad, after all we know that Moshe himself translated the Torah in 70 languages and explained it to the Bnei Yisrael before we entered the land. The problem comes from studying on your own from translations.

You just can't do that. Especially when it comes to Gemara. With Artscroll you barely get the translation and the pshat somewhat explained, you don't get Rashi or Tosfot or all the other tools that one needs to even understand what's happening on the page.

Hebrew is still 100% required for any study that is above the level of a 4th grader.
 
2013-04-23 02:31:15 PM  

MaliFinn: give me doughnuts: MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males


You're not really good at counting, are you?

Oh, was the older idiot slightly above age 24?  Whatever.  You've avoided the point while being technically correct on the internet.  This means you are a special, intelligent person who is completely unlike everyone else on the internet.  Your mother must be very proud.


And you're like a lot of people with their head deep in the sand.
 
2013-04-23 02:33:40 PM  
I've got to admit, I'm not a very good person. When various bits of news occur I get the knee-jerk response, "Damn all (insert faith/race/etc.) to hell".
And later on I remember all the very good people I know, who are Muslim. Or Catholics. Or Germans. Including some very good friends. And I feel ashamed and wonder why the hell I can't let my reasoning- which I'm often overly proud of- override the tribal group-think, or rather group-not-thinking, that I mock at in countless examples in world history.
To put it bluntly, I'm a dumbass.
 
2013-04-23 02:35:02 PM  

miss diminutive: Usually people like that backpack across Europe or take up drinking; he decided to blow up people. I don't think this was simply an existential crisis, he obviously had some greater motive and meant to send a message, regardless of how nonsensical or twisted that message may be.


Well, some people shoot up schools. Some people shoot up their families.  "If I can't be happy, no one can, and I'm going to make a big splash going out."

corronchilejano: I'm sorry but how is a casserole a weapon of mass destruction?


Because the US is reactionary and paranoid.

AngryJailhouseFistfark: It is relevant in that it explains the motivation. That is where the relevance stops. The Derpers will say that it is clear evidence that Islam is a batshiat murder-frenzy cult and thus we must make every effort to destroy it (for the Glory of BibleGod and his boy Jesus, most likely).

The Tsarnaevs were born cultural muslims in the same way most American Christians are born to it, celebrating Christmas & Easter but rarely reading the Bible except maybe 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 at cousin Jimmy's wedding. Then as another poster commented, the elder brother became directionless and sought his religious roots for a sense of purpose.

In this way he's no different than Tim McVeigh. Consider T McV: a loyal, native-born American citizen, awkward teen, but successful as an enlisted soldier in the US Army, Persian Gulf War Veteran, honorably discharged after turned down for the special forces. Directionless, he turned to radical separatism, the White Supremecists and the Militia Movement. Stand up against this oppressive US Government Regime! It gave him a sense of purpose and meaning, and if you REALLY believe, you do something big to show you're serious and not just a dilettante.

Same dynamic. But saying, "Oh, see, he's Muslin so we best fire up the War Machine and invade [petroleum/natural gas producing nation of your choice]" is pointless and stupid, UNLESS you can prove that the country in question sponsored it or consciously allowed someone in their borders to sponsor it.

Beyond that, the Muslim Doesn't Matter.


Indeed.

As far as I know, the FBI is concluding more and more that yes, the brothers acted alone.  Merely being inspired by some radical websites online does not make them agents of some super secret terrorist cell or anything like that.

Personally I still think identity issues played a role in this (where the older brother in particular is concerned) and it would provide some reasoning for him to decide to look into becoming "stricter" about Islam.  If he feels alienated in the US and then feels alienated among "Chechens" too (which is entirely possible considering his age and age at immigration and all that) he may be thinking, well, I'm gonna prove myself as "fighting for the cause" however ineptly.
 
2013-04-23 02:35:54 PM  

Tatsuma: Hebrew is still 100% required for any study that is above the level of a 4th grader.


Yes. Ish.

// a good teacher can maybe get you up to grade 6
// same goes for the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of the Dead, Beowulf and Dante's Inferno
 
2013-04-23 02:40:13 PM  
Yeah but what about the crusades 722 years go and that OKC bombing guy ................oh wait, Timothy McVeigh had lost touch with religion at the time of the bombing.

Ok, so what about the crusades man!
 
2013-04-23 02:43:30 PM  

walkingtall: Resident Muslim: I've actually found Fark to be well-knowledged about Islam, with many non-Muslims (atheists, agnostics, Christians and Jews etc) dispelling many myths, and I personally thank them or that.
I know there are trolls here.

Im sorry but I respectfully disagree with you. I have studied Mohammed, the Koran and the Hadiths extensively and your cherry picking of a couple verses is just as bad as a Christian cherry picking verses from the Bible to make a point. The Koran, Hadiths and history all come together to provide context to what the texts mean. I do not speak Arabic so my views are not given any weight by serious scholars of Islam of course but the translations, in the real world, give a pretty good insight into what Islam is and what it wants to be. Mohammed is the highest prophet of Allah and as such what he says and what he did goes.


I'm not sure what it is you are respectfully disagreeing with.
I'm also not sure when you say cherry-picking, it would imply avoiding other cherries. :)
Some points you might find interesting:
- Mohammed was chastised in the Quran by God (at least once that I can recall now) for trying to convert a noble and rich person and ignoring a blind pious man (my words/understanding)
- a translation (and as such is based on a person's understanding): Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude. [3:144]

So unless you were trying to prove how unguarded I am against trollishness...
:)
 
2013-04-23 02:46:38 PM  

give me doughnuts: over_and_done: give me doughnuts: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity

Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?

Yes.  Try harder.

Justify your answer using quotes and commentary from the Qur'an and the hadith. To steal a phrase: Try harder.


No.  I've put just as much effort in my answer as you put into your trolling question.  You don't want an answer, you want to feel good about justifying your own attitudes, and it's easy to see why.  Neither of us gives a fark.

/done with thread
//y'all have a good day now
 
2013-04-23 03:01:55 PM  

ohdoublereally: MaliFinn: give me doughnuts: MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males


You're not really good at counting, are you?

Oh, was the older idiot slightly above age 24?  Whatever.  You've avoided the point while being technically correct on the internet.  This means you are a special, intelligent person who is completely unlike everyone else on the internet.  Your mother must be very proud.

And you're like a lot of people with their head deep in the sand.


Nah, the 18-24 male demographic is basically responsible for every evil in the world.  It's carried a thousand different banners, but it's always the same stupid young male trying to figure out what it means to be a man, and failing miserably.
 
2013-04-23 03:07:40 PM  

Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity.


Of course.   But the way to tap dance around that is to declare that the people you killed are guilty of something.  Ie: the people killed at the WTC were supporting the system that they didnt like.
 
2013-04-23 03:32:17 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity.

Of course.   But the way to tap dance around that is to declare that the people you killed are guilty of something.  Ie: the people killed at the WTC were supporting the system that they didnt like.


Uh, no. Though indeed that sounds scary in a "booga-booga they hate us all" fashion.

But let me say that that was true, for argument's sake, are you telling me that you'll crash two planes into two buildings and not expect to kill an innocent child?

/no collateral damage in Islam.
 
2013-04-23 03:43:37 PM  

MaliFinn: give me doughnuts: MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males


You're not really good at counting, are you?

Oh, was the older idiot slightly above age 24?  Whatever.  You've avoided the point while being technically correct on the internet.  This means you are a special, intelligent person who is completely unlike everyone else on the internet.  Your mother must be very proud.


No, it means you are a freaking moran who seemingly thinks there are more American males between 18-24 than there are Muslims on the planet.
Your mother must be very ashamed.
 
2013-04-23 03:50:36 PM  

Dr Dreidel: give me doughnuts: There are translations of the Qur'an in over 100 languages. None of them are considered "blasphemy."

He's also wrong about Jews forbidding translation of the Torah (the reason it's a big deal when a kid first reads it is because it's the first time he gets to lead the service as the community's representative). Orthodox, Hasidic and other ultra-observant groups fund translations into English, Yiddish, Arabic and pretty much every other language on Earf.

Maybe it was correct a thousand years ago or more (supposedly, the day the Torah was translated into Greek was a great tragedy, but even the Talmud argues that it made the text more accessible to lay folk), but these days, every holy book can be found translated into every major dialect.


You can correct me if I'm wrong cause this is your side of the street and not mine, But I believe that while there are tranlations of the Torah in many languages, a book is NOT an actual Torah, and therefore sacred, unless it is not only in Hebrew, but also written by hand to exact specifications that require destruction of the entire document for a single typo

Same with the Koran (qu'ran lit "God's word")   Among all Muslims that I am aware of,  it cannot be considered the actual, and therefore sacred, Koran if it is in any other language than English.   In recent times the stricter intepretations of Islam (Salafist and Wahabbi) regard even the act of translation as a grave evil and blasphemous.  There was a case in Afghanistan as recently as 2008 where clerics and government officials (NOT the Taliban) were calling for the execution of a journalist who distributed copies of the Koran in the native language of one of Afghanistan's minority tribes
 
2013-04-23 03:51:19 PM  

thunderbird8804: If people are going to treat all Muslims like the guys in Boston, why can't I treat all Christians like Eric Rudolph?

Because you know that's stupid, stop being so glib.


Why is it stupid?

Let me ask you this, do you associate all Muslims with the guys in Boston or do you realize that there are decent Muslims out there like there are decent Christians, decent Jews, etc.
 
2013-04-23 03:58:28 PM  

give me doughnuts: MaliFinn: give me doughnuts: No, it means you are a freaking moran who seemingly thinks there are more American males between 18-24 than there are Muslims on the planet.
Your mother must be very ashamed.


No, what I'm saying is if you look at crime in the US - hate crime, violent crime, terrorism, etc. - you won't find muslims dominating the brackets, you will find 18-24 males.  This is a pretty strong indicator that 18-24 males are violent idiots.

And you sound awfully defensive, I wish you well in your battle with adolescence.
 
2013-04-23 04:07:55 PM  
The Tsarnaev brothers are representative of Muslims...but Fred Phelps isn't representative of Christians.

IT'S MAGIC.
 
2013-04-23 04:13:04 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: The Tsarnaev brothers are representative of Muslims...but Fred Phelps isn't representative of Christians.

IT'S MAGIC.


You see, just because more terrorist attacks are committed by Muslims than Christians, that magically makes all Muslims terrorists regardless of all the good they do like thwarting future terror attacks in Canada.

It really makes sense when you don't think about it.
 
2013-04-23 04:16:26 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: The Tsarnaev brothers are representative of Muslims...but Fred Phelps isn't representative of Christians.

IT'S MAGIC.


Actually there are a fair number of people (myself included) that do see Phelps as being representative of what's wrong with Christians and Christianity, just as this kid is representative of what's is wrong with Islam and its practitioners.
 
2013-04-23 04:28:50 PM  

bingo the psych-o: rufus-t-firefly: The Tsarnaev brothers are representative of Muslims...but Fred Phelps isn't representative of Christians.

IT'S MAGIC.

Actually there are a fair number of people (myself included) that do see Phelps as being representative of what's wrong with Christians and Christianity, just as this kid is representative of what's is wrong with Islam and its practitioners.


To be fair, Pat Robertson would be a better example of what's wrong with Christianity than Fred "Professional Plaintiff" Phelps.
 
2013-04-23 04:30:18 PM  
Tea-Bagger Tabby is pretty smug right now.


i.imgur.com

The libs were so sure the bombers were Tea-Baggers.  But OH HEY, they were your precious, misunderstood, peace-loving Muslims. AGAIN.

Keep squirming.  Keep flailing about and claiming "their religion doesn't matter!"  Cry more.  Just admit it; you prayed.  Prayed the bombers were your political opponents.
 
2013-04-23 04:33:01 PM  

weltallica: The libs were so sure the bombers were Tea-Baggers.  But OH HEY, they were your precious, misunderstood, peace-loving Muslims. AGAIN.

Keep squirming.  Keep flailing about and claiming "their religion doesn't matter!"  Cry more.  Just admit it; you prayed.  Prayed the bombers were your political opponents.


You need to calm down.
 
2013-04-23 04:41:35 PM  

Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.


Actually, most terrorist acts are committed by Sepratists (Basques in Spain, IRA in Ireland, etc...)

Stats do show that when terrorist acts are committed for religious motivation, Islam is implicated in about 80% of cases (in Europe at least).  That being said, the percentage of fanatical Islamists who are willing to kill or cause harm for their sky wizard is REALLY low.  Where I have a huge problem is in the backlash against those who are peace loving citizens who hate this type of shiat as much as any Christian or Jew (SOFT J!!!!   :P )
 
2013-04-23 04:41:39 PM  

MaliFinn: give me doughnuts: MaliFinn: give me doughnuts: No, it means you are a freaking moran who seemingly thinks there are more American males between 18-24 than there are Muslims on the planet.
Your mother must be very ashamed.

No, what I'm saying is if you look at crime in the US - hate crime, violent crime, terrorism, etc. - you won't find muslims dominating the brackets, you will find 18-24 males.  This is a pretty strong indicator that 18-24 males are violent idiots.

And you sound awfully defensive, I wish you well in your battle with adolescence.


If that was what you meant, then why didn't you post that rather than:  It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse. It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males


which appears to assert that there are more American males in the 18-24 age bracket than there are Muslims on the planet.
 
2013-04-23 04:48:10 PM  

mangeybear: Hickory-smoked: The point is we should ask if the potential for militancy has more to do with the basic tenets of a religion, or current global politics. I think the latter is more likely, and handwringing about Muslims and racially profiling them isn't likely to help that.

I'm guessing you think the tenets have nothing to do with the potential for militancy?


No more so than that of other religions.

 I also guess that it doesn't alarm you that the world's 1.6 billion Muslims have produced only two Nobel laureates in chemistry and physics; the worlds Jews, one hundred times less numerous, have produced 79.

That's a complete non-sequitor. The Jewish Diaspora is primarily in First-world nations, along with the world's top science and research institutions. Most of the 1.6 billion you refer to are not. And if you think there's something intrinsically anti-intellectual about Islam as a faith, you know literally nothing about the history of science.

Some of us think that the religious faith itself, or at least it's leadership, might have a bearing on behavior.

Exactly. Leadership.

There is no Pope or supreme authority in Islam. There are dozens of major schools and branches of Islamic ideology. Any leader can issue a hadith that will either be accepted by followers or ignored by others.

According to the Economist magazine,  the Saudi government supports books for Islamic schools such as "The Unchallengeable Miracles of the Qur'an: The Facts That Can't Be Denied By Science" suggesting an inherent conflict between belief and reason.

I know, I know, you'll say Christian fundies just as bad, and I'll say no they're not.


The only difference I can see between "The Unchallengeable Miracles of the Qur'an" and "Biology For Christian Schools" is that one is distributed by a theocratic government and the other one merely wants to be.

That's why I don't discriminate against Muslims, but I do against Theocrats.
 
2013-04-23 04:50:17 PM  

Magorn: But I believe that while there are tranlations of the Torah in many languages, a book is NOT an actual Torah


You're confusing "a Torah" with "the Torah". [fightclub.jpg]

"The Torah" is the text itself. From "In the beginning" to ...um, the last verse (in Chronicles II). "A Torah" is the ceremonial thing the text gets printed on that the kid reads from. It's got some pretty involved design specs, down to the ingredients for ink and legibility of characters.

To avoid confusion, the latter is often referred to as a "sefer Torah" (a book/scroll of the Torah).

// tmyk
 
2013-04-23 04:55:32 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Magorn: But I believe that while there are tranlations of the Torah in many languages, a book is NOT an actual Torah

You're confusing "a Torah" with "the Torah". [fightclub.jpg]

"The Torah" is the text itself. From "In the beginning" to ...um, the last verse (in Chronicles II). "A Torah" is the ceremonial thing the text gets printed on that the kid reads from. It's got some pretty involved design specs, down to the ingredients for ink and legibility of characters.

To avoid confusion, the latter is often referred to as a "sefer Torah" (a book/scroll of the Torah).

// tmyk


Oh, and I should add that a sefer Torah only has the Pentateuch on it. So it'd be from "In the beginning" to "...before of all Israel" (end of Deuteronomy).

// or, if you prefer, from "בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא" to "לְעֵינֵי כָּל יִשְׂרָאֵל"
 
2013-04-23 04:59:37 PM  
for those confused about Christianity, the Pope just works for Catholics. nobody else really cares what goes on at the Vatican except on a slow news day.

so there really isn't a "supreme authority" for Christianity, either.

/ carry on with the derping
 
2013-04-23 05:15:03 PM  

Mrtraveler01: thunderbird8804: If people are going to treat all Muslims like the guys in Boston, why can't I treat all Christians like Eric Rudolph?

Because you know that's stupid, stop being so glib.

Why is it stupid?

Let me ask you this, do you associate all Muslims with the guys in Boston or do you realize that there are decent Muslims out there like there are decent Christians, decent Jews, etc.


I linked that Hitchens video for a reason, the most relevant segment is about 8:25 to 9:10.
 
2013-04-23 05:22:04 PM  

This text is now purple: IlGreven: On that subject (and risking bringing the gun-nuts in), didja ever notice that the blame game on stuff like metal, rap, D&D, videogames, teh ghey, etc. for school shootings et al came after the 2nd Amendment uber-alles nuts came into power in the NRA? Or, in other words, "blame everything but the guns"?

It was comics in the 1950s. It was talkies in the 1930s. It was booze in the 1920s. How far back do you want to chart the social ills of the age before you run into a weak NRA?


How many mass shootings were there in the '50s and the '30s?  How much violence was there before Prohibition as opposed to during it?

Again, blame everything but the guns. And when you can't blame anything other than the guns, keep making shiat up.
 
2013-04-23 05:56:35 PM  
Fark before the terrorist was caught: "Its not a muslim, it was mostly likely a frat boy tea party right wing nut job!" Stereotyping and assuming the worst of said group despite little evidence they do this sort of stuff.

Fark after the terrorist plot: "So, he doesn't represent islam"


You farkers are full of shiat. THIS is the real face of islam. Islam is a violent, totalitarian movement. There is no peace with islam, unless you are dead, a slave, or submit and convert. Islam is a violent ideology that is no better then national socialism. It should be treated as such, and outlawed in all western nations not as a religion, but as a violent hate cult.
 
2013-04-23 06:23:39 PM  

Hickory-smoked: mangeybear: Hickory-smoked:

That's a complete non-sequitor. The Jewish Diaspora is primarily in First-world nations, along with the world's top science and research institutions. Most of the 1.6 billion you refer to are not.


Oh please.  "First World" is supposed to refer to Cold War alignment, but I assume you mean that somehow the 1.6 billion live in "poor" countries.  Fine.  Then why do the largest countries of the 1.6 billion, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia, spend far less on research and development than countries with similar GDP per capita and literacy levels, like Brazil or Chile or China?

And if you think there's something intrinsically anti-intellectual about Islam as a faith, you know literally nothing about the history of science.

Not as a faith, everyone who's read history knows that Islamic cultures dominated astronomy, mathematics, medicine, and, well, history from the 8th to the 13th century.  But something happened, and Islamic science basically has slept for the last 800 years.  Sucks to be in last place.  Christianity was once, but has recently been doing just fine.

Exactly. Leadership.

There is no Pope or supreme authority in Islam.


Nor is there for Christianity, nor Judaism.

There are dozens of major schools and branches of Islamic ideology. Any leader can issue a hadith that will either be accepted by followers or ignored by others.

Clearly the Islamic leadership, in aggregate, has failed its adherents by failing to foster education and tolerance.

The only difference I can see between "The Unchallengeable Miracles of the Qur'an" and "Biology For Christian Schools" is that one is distributed by a theocratic government and the other one merely wants to be and never will be.

FTFY.  A few nuts in Texas != government of millions of citizens.

That's why I don't discriminate against Muslims, but I do against Theocrats.

Fine.  But only a fool would deny that theocracy is far more accepted and desired in today's Muslims than any other faith.  Scale matters.
 
2013-04-23 06:25:59 PM  

atomicmask: Fark before the terrorist was caught: "Its not a muslim, it was mostly likely a frat boy tea party right wing nut job!" Stereotyping and assuming the worst of said group despite little evidence they do this sort of stuff.

Fark after the terrorist plot: "So, he doesn't represent islam"


You farkers are full of shiat. THIS is the real face of islam. Islam is a violent, totalitarian movement. There is no peace with islam, unless you are dead, a slave, or submit and convert. Islam is a violent ideology that is no better then national socialism. It should be treated as such, and outlawed in all western nations not as a religion, but as a violent hate cult.


So what about the Muslims that are non violent like the guy in Canada who called the police to notify them that someone they know was planning a terror attack?

Are those Muslims violent and hateful too?

I'm just saying, that's quite a broad brush you're using there.
 
2013-04-23 07:11:27 PM  

Mrtraveler01: atomicmask: Fark before the terrorist was caught: "Its not a muslim, it was mostly likely a frat boy tea party right wing nut job!" Stereotyping and assuming the worst of said group despite little evidence they do this sort of stuff.

Fark after the terrorist plot: "So, he doesn't represent islam"


You farkers are full of shiat. THIS is the real face of islam. Islam is a violent, totalitarian movement. There is no peace with islam, unless you are dead, a slave, or submit and convert. Islam is a violent ideology that is no better then national socialism. It should be treated as such, and outlawed in all western nations not as a religion, but as a violent hate cult.

So what about the Muslims that are non violent like the guy in Canada who called the police to notify them that someone they know was planning a terror attack?

Are those Muslims violent and hateful too?

I'm just saying, that's quite a broad brush you're using there.


Yes, the same as the national socialists that supported hitlers ideology without actually doing any violent acts. When you support a violent ideology you support the violence it leads to.
 
2013-04-23 07:26:15 PM  

nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".


Oh, so like the Occupy Wall Streeters?
 
2013-04-23 07:41:47 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.


In this case both sides were right.  The leftists wanted the terrorists to be white.  The people on the right correctly guessed they were moslem.
 
2013-04-23 07:48:08 PM  

People_are_Idiots: nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".

Oh, so like the Occupy Wall Streeters?


No it's okay and justified when they do it.

And the people making statements about how it either doesn't matter that they were Muslims or that they were just 'radicals' would likely have no trouble blaming the entire "right" if actually had been a Tea Party member like they so hoped it was.

I'll say it again: Islam under the absolute best circumstances is just as bad as Christianity, and in almost all cases is far worse. If liberals really believed the things they say they would be so anti-Islam that their dislike of Republicans would seem paltry by comparison.
 
2013-04-23 08:02:42 PM  

advex101: Mrbogey: Robert1966: So they received no outside help, yet they were both unemployed, one was a student, and they had a house AND an apartment?

And multiple vehicles...

millions of latino immigrants are technically unemployed but work every day and have all the things that you list above.


They tend to have laborous jobs, a family support network, and don't drive luxury models.

FlashHarry: PC LOAD LETTER: Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI

Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.

BZZZT you're both wrong. most domestic terrorists - the ones who actually harm or kill other americans - are of the right wing variety.


Their methodology sucks. A guy successfully burning down a mosque is treated with more weight than a guy failing to blow up a bridge or building.

The best irony of your article is it was published on Saturday, August 11th 2012 while Wednesday August 15th, 2012 a left-winger walked into the FRC and attempted to massacre as many people as possible spurred in part by the SPLC classifying the organization as a hate group.
 
2013-04-23 08:13:53 PM  
Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Jew- they all have their fanatics.

The Zoroastrians though; they seem reasonable.
 
2013-04-23 09:14:05 PM  

Tatsuma: runescorpio: Tbh i find its more the new converts with an addictive personality.

They were not converts, they were born Muslims, they just became more religious after their mother asked them to.



Wasn't talking about them. Was commenting on people that convert in general.
 
2013-04-23 09:24:46 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: The Tsarnaev brothers are representative of Muslims...but Fred Phelps isn't representative of Christians.

IT'S MAGIC.


Fred Phelps is universally hated by christians and non christians. Osama bin laden is still reguarded as a martyr and hero by many many muslims. These two carpet bowing shiat heels that attacked boston have a growing muslim support group that swears they are innocent and good boys...

That is the farking difference.
 
2013-04-23 09:31:19 PM  

Frederick: Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Jew- they all have their fanatics.

The Zoroastrians though; they seem reasonable.


Reasonable?  They worship a Mazda.  I mean, I drive one myself, but I wouldn't worship it...
 
2013-04-23 10:40:17 PM  
Bedstead Polisher:Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.

True, but 99% is good enough for me.
 
2013-04-23 11:07:13 PM  

NephilimNexus: Bedstead Polisher:Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.

True, but 99% is good enough for me.


I think you were quoting bluefox3681, as I definitely do not agree.
 
2013-04-23 11:38:40 PM  

Frederick: Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Jew- they all have their fanatics.

The Zoroastrians though; they seem reasonable.


They gave us Freddie Mercury, so yeah.
 
2013-04-23 11:44:35 PM  

atomicmask: rufus-t-firefly: The Tsarnaev brothers are representative of Muslims...but Fred Phelps isn't representative of Christians.

IT'S MAGIC.

Fred Phelps is universally hated by christians and non christians. Osama bin laden is still reguarded as a martyr and hero by many many muslims.


"Many many" you say?

Well! Then prejudging them must be justified!
 
2013-04-24 01:00:50 AM  
Christianity is the true religion of peace.

25.media.tumblr.com
www.serveinspain.com
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-04-24 01:40:51 AM  
randomjsa: People_are_Idiots: nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".

Oh, so like the Occupy Wall Streeters?

No it's okay and justified when they do it.

www.washingtonpost.comts1.mm.bing.netcdn-ugc.cafemom.comfullmetalpatriotblog.com

This is ok? Protests are fine and dandy, but least pick up after yourselves. At least the nutters on the right did.


And the people making statements about how it either doesn't matter that they were Muslims or that they were just 'radicals' would likely have no trouble blaming the entire "right" if actually had been a Tea Party member like they so hoped it was.

That I am sure of. I was ready to also blame some local that wanted to glorify the New York marathon... but oh well...

I'll say it again: Islam under the absolute best circumstances is just as bad as Christianity, and in almost all cases is far worse. If liberals really believed the things they say they would be so anti-Islam that their dislike of Republicans would seem paltry by comparison.

Actually, I think they, like Republicans, tend to lie to get what they want, and would go to great lengths to get it.
 
2013-04-24 03:30:49 AM  

Hickory-smoked: atomicmask: rufus-t-firefly: The Tsarnaev brothers are representative of Muslims...but Fred Phelps isn't representative of Christians.

IT'S MAGIC.

Fred Phelps is universally hated by christians and non christians. Osama bin laden is still reguarded as a martyr and hero by many many muslims.

"Many many" you say?

Well! Then prejudging them must be justified!


Yes it is.
 
2013-04-24 11:57:13 AM  

People_are_Idiots: This is ok? Protests are fine and dandy, but least pick up after yourselves. At least the nutters on the right did.


In all fairness, the cops didn't knock over all of the Tea Party's stuff and haul them away.
 
2013-04-24 12:14:35 PM  

Hickory-smoked: People_are_Idiots: This is ok? Protests are fine and dandy, but least pick up after yourselves. At least the nutters on the right did.

In all fairness, the cops didn't knock over all of the Tea Party's stuff and haul them away.


That's miniscule.

- Nutters went, protested, and went home. OWS camped out there for weeks.
- Nutters registered their events. OWS didn't.
 
2013-04-24 04:19:31 PM  

TheVeryDeadIanMartin: Christianity is the true religion of peace.

[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x377]
[www.serveinspain.com image 640x480]
[24.media.tumblr.com image 475x602]


False equivalency is false, dickhead.
 
2013-04-24 10:19:24 PM  
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