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(Salon)   Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. ... Was Islam. That was easy   (salon.com) divider line 400
    More: Obvious, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Islam, Dzhokhar, Tamerlan  
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23912 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2013 at 10:10 AM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-23 01:15:31 PM

Tatsuma: So yeah, maybe you should think about doing your homework on this.


Says the guy who earlier claimed that the Tsarnaevs were "born in Chechnya"...

Neither brother ever set foot on Chechen soil.
 
2013-04-23 01:17:23 PM

the money is in the banana stand: Even funnier than that is you have people claiming Christianity is all that is wrong with America citing Westboro etc. as representative of the "mainstream", and yet chastising people for claiming Islam is a violent religion due to the actions of a select group of individuals.


Not me.  I claim that the violent assholes are the relevant, most influential subset of any religion.  The people who don't do much don't count.
 
2013-04-23 01:23:23 PM

Kentucky Fried Panda: jso2897: Bigotry of any kind is "barnyard collectivism"

Can you dumb this down for me?  I'm not tracking....


Lifted from an old Ayn Rand quote: "The racist is a "barnyard collectivist" - he possesses a mentality that is just capable of distinguishing between different breeds of animals, but not between individual human beings". (or something pretty close to that) And, yes, I know Rand was a loon - but even a broken clock etc., etc.
 
2013-04-23 01:24:07 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-23 01:24:19 PM

mangeybear: I know, I know, you'll say Christian fundies just as bad, and I'll say no they're not.


"Just as bad"? Who knows. I just don't think it matters. As the people of oklahoma city and boston know, one of each is plenty. Are we only allowed to choose one kind of idiotic fundamentalist moron to focus on? The huge terrorist events are obviously horrible and must be a focus but on a day to day level each variety is regularly involved in your garden variety subjugation of women, book burning, etc, all of which are damaging to the state at large.
 
2013-04-23 01:24:22 PM

Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity


Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?
 
2013-04-23 01:25:24 PM

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


Crazy knows no race, creed, color, political affiliation, background, socioeconomic status, gender, etc. Crazy is just crazy.
 
2013-04-23 01:27:47 PM

give me doughnuts: Magorn: I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.

I don't know Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, so does that mean I can't ever read a Bible?


For any given religion, the True Believers will tell you that only the original language is valid.  Others will tell you that a translation is okay to begin with, but that eventually you need to read the texts in the original language in order to fully understand/appreciate/grok the meanings.

This gets a little trickier when dealing with the Koran, where the belief is that the text is the literal word of God.  Not the Facebook sense of literal, but the literal this-is-a-word-for-word-transcript like a court recorder Word of God.  And given that, a "translation" become something less than holy.

Most of us Christians are only dimly aware of the issues involved, since we don't even have the original texts, only copies of copies of copies.  Don't even get me started on the jackass Texas politician.  "English uz good enuf fer Jesus, it shud be good enuf fer the skoolchildren of Texas!"
 
2013-04-23 01:28:12 PM

JohnBigBootay: mangeybear: I know, I know, you'll say Christian fundies just as bad, and I'll say no they're not.

"Just as bad"? Who knows. I just don't think it matters. As the people of oklahoma city and boston know, one of each is plenty. Are we only allowed to choose one kind of idiotic fundamentalist moron to focus on? The huge terrorist events are obviously horrible and must be a focus but on a day to day level each variety is regularly involved in your garden variety subjugation of women, book burning, etc, all of which are damaging to the state at large.


Seeing as how a drunk or texting driver is several thousand times more likely to kill or maim me than either, I'll take a pass on that debate as well.
 
2013-04-23 01:28:16 PM

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?
 
2013-04-23 01:30:03 PM

give me doughnuts: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity

Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?


Yes.  Try harder.
 
2013-04-23 01:32:20 PM

Deucednuisance: Says the guy who earlier claimed that the Tsarnaevs were "born in Chechnya"...


Yeah I said that after the news immediately came out and everyone said they were Chechns who came to live in America. Since then I've realized that it's not the case. Way to be a nitpicking asshole.
 
2013-04-23 01:32:27 PM

JohnBigBootay: mangeybear: I know, I know, you'll say Christian fundies just as bad, and I'll say no they're not.

"Just as bad"? Who knows. I just don't think it matters. As the people of oklahoma city and boston know, one of each is plenty. Are we only allowed to choose one kind of idiotic fundamentalist moron to focus on? The huge terrorist events are obviously horrible and must be a focus but on a day to day level each variety is regularly involved in your garden variety subjugation of women, book burning, etc, all of which are damaging to the state at large.


Uh you do realize OKC had nothing to do religion?  And you are absolutely clueless if you think Christianity is anywhere close to level of garbage in the Arab world about women's rights (more of a culture thing and less religion)
 
2013-04-23 01:33:45 PM
jso2897:
[...] "terrorism" is a reality of modern life, and all we can do is minimize the already miniscule risk it poses to us. If all radical Islam vanished tomorrow, by magic - we would still have "terrorism" aplenty. But it is about as likely to harm any of us as lighting strikes - find something else to piss and moan about.

Hasn't "terrorism" always been a term of propaganda?
 
2013-04-23 01:33:53 PM

over_and_done: give me doughnuts: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity

Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?

Yes.  Try harder.


Justify your answer using quotes and commentary from the Qur'an and the hadith. To steal a phrase: Try harder.
 
2013-04-23 01:35:07 PM

KellyX: Tatsuma: KellyX: What exactly is "energy independent"?

Does that really mean when we no longer need to use oil anymore?

A mix of lots of electric cars/hybrid and drilling at home. We also need to get Europe on the same bandwagon.

If you cut the oil money from the Middle-East, a lot of that shiat will die down.

But it's all sold on the international market, even all the oil the US or the EU pumps up... It's not as if it's finders keepers going on.

Literally to be independent of Saudi/Middle Eastern oil we'd have to flat out stop using oil to the degree that it'd only be needed for stuff like lubrication (which we can make synthetics do better) or making plastics, thereby make the value go down so much that they'd not be getting as rich off it.


True its sold on an open market. But overall decrease in demand would lessen overall money to the middle east. It would make oil less valuable and less likely people would fight over it.

Not only that, the oil embargo showed just how dependent we are.
 
2013-04-23 01:35:16 PM
i.imgur.com


Crazy is crazy. Fundamentalist is fundamentalist.

IT DOESN'T FARKING MATTER.

Focus on the individuals responsible. Personal responsibility trumps religion. Always. Always. Always. No exceptions.
 
2013-04-23 01:36:57 PM

CoonAce: jso2897:
[...] "terrorism" is a reality of modern life, and all we can do is minimize the already miniscule risk it poses to us. If all radical Islam vanished tomorrow, by magic - we would still have "terrorism" aplenty. But it is about as likely to harm any of us as lighting strikes - find something else to piss and moan about.

Hasn't "terrorism" always been a term of propaganda?



It's based on point of view. Kinda like the difference between "revolutionary" and "traitor."
 
2013-04-23 01:37:02 PM

over_and_done: give me doughnuts: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity

Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?

Yes.  Try harder.


Then again - can any of us really be said to be "innocent"?
i18.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-23 01:37:36 PM
 
2013-04-23 01:37:49 PM

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


It's not covering for Islam. It's the fear that peabrained bigots will go apeshiat again and cheer us into another horrific Oil War because TERROR. Incidentally I'm glad you woke from your 12 year coma. You have some catching up to do.
 
2013-04-23 01:38:35 PM

give me doughnuts: over_and_done: give me doughnuts: Resident Muslim: The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity

Can a non-believer ever be considered "innocent"?

Yes.  Try harder.

Justify your answer using quotes and commentary from the Qur'an and the hadith. To steal a phrase: Try harder.


You did notice that I put it in quotes, I presume.
 
2013-04-23 01:38:50 PM

flondrix: the money is in the banana stand: Even funnier than that is you have people claiming Christianity is all that is wrong with America citing Westboro etc. as representative of the "mainstream", and yet chastising people for claiming Islam is a violent religion due to the actions of a select group of individuals.

Not me.  I claim that the violent assholes are the relevant, most influential subset of any religion.  The people who don't do much don't count.


Using that philosophy, let's say I say this:

Not me.  I claim that the violent assholes are the relevant, most influential subset of any race.  The people who don't do much don't count.

You would call me a racist right? How is that any different when applied to religion?
 
2013-04-23 01:39:41 PM

give me doughnuts: Magorn: I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.


I don't know Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, so does that mean I can't ever read a Bible?


No because we fought long religious wars over the translation of the bible into the "vulgar" a along time ago, and now the bible is translated into nearly every language on earth, in fact the is a group of evangelists who are so devoted to this task that they try to make contact with indigenous peoples who don;t HAVE a written language, just so they can create one for them and translate the Bible into it.  Islam, however, like Judaism doesn't allow their sacred scriptures to be translated out of the original language.   Thus is you don't speak Hebrew you have not actually read THE Holy Torah (in fact they make kinda a big deal out of the first time a boy does this at temple..you may have heard of this) and if you cannot read classical Arabic you have never read the Koran.  In fact it is generally considered the vilest blasphemy imaginable to translate it into any other language.
 
2013-04-23 01:39:50 PM

Tatsuma: And guys stop saying that they were converts to Islam. They were not. They came from non-religious backgrounds but they were still Muslims and identified as such. It's just that they became more religious in the recent years. A convert to Islam would be someone who was born Hindu or non-Religious or a Buddhist and then decided to embrace Islam, not a bunch of guys who were born in Chechnya and went to Islamic schools when they were young.


What farking difference does it make?
 
2013-04-23 01:40:31 PM

Magorn: brandent: nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".

The difference between radical violent Christians and radical violent Islamists is simple.  If a person reads the New Testament and adheres strictly to the teachings of Jesus then they would soon come to the conclusion that they are pacifist and probably socialist and defenders of tolerance, love, and inclusion.  If a person reads the teachings of Mohammed and follows them strictly then they would soon come to the conclusion that it is a doctrine of violence and intolerance.

I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.   I'm also going to guess that your in-depth study of Islam involves watching TV and movies and listening to the opinions of right-wing columnists, radio ...


Not at all.  I make the same claim for Judaism.  Strict adherence requires violence.  It is commanded in the Old Testament.  The New Testament has no such violence or requirement and rejects such things.  Islam also requires violence toward non-believers.  Jesus made no threats of violence or suggestions but in fact the opposite.
 
2013-04-23 01:40:37 PM

LavenderWolf: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?


Well that makes it okay then!
 
2013-04-23 01:40:44 PM

Tatsuma: Way to be a nitpicking asshole.


Says the nitpicking asshole.

C'mon, dude.  That's your whole farking shtick.

Talk about a hanging curveball....
 
2013-04-23 01:44:57 PM
Why am I having trouble believing anything CNN says anymore?
 
2013-04-23 01:46:46 PM

thunderbird8804: LavenderWolf: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?

Well that makes it okay then!


Because no matter how many times you tell people, people will associate the scumbags like the one in Boston to all Muslims in general.

Yes, radical Islam is bad but so is radical Christianity, radical Judaism, etc.

But yet we don't associate all Christians with abortion clinic bombers and we don't actively try to prevent a church from being built.

If people are going to treat all Muslims like the guys in Boston, why can't I treat all Christians like Eric Rudolph?
 
2013-04-23 01:47:56 PM

Bondith: Preliminary interviews with Dzhokhar Tsarnaev indicate the two brothers fit the classification of self-radicalized jihadists, the source said. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, wounded and held in a Boston hospital, said his brother wanted to defend Islam from attack, according to the source.

...by making people want to attack it?

/religious thought is nonsensical
//batshiat insane fundamentalist thought even more so


Well, in the last few years I've seen newspapers, the daily show, hell even South farking Park kowtow to islam by refusing to show a farking drawing of muhammed, for fear of the violent reaction of it's peaceful followers. Id' say they've been quite successful at 'defending' it.
 
2013-04-23 01:49:49 PM

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


Perhaps not all of them but enough for me to no longer care what happens to the anemic remains of their once planet spanning empire.Leave me and mine to get on with the business of developing/fixing our culture; let them bathe in the husk of their dead caliphate.  They don't like it... let THEM FIX IT.

/The Great made Low by this mind-virus.
 
2013-04-23 01:53:14 PM

Magorn: give me doughnuts: Magorn: I'm going to go out on a limb an guess you aren't Fluent in writtern Arabic, which tells me you have never read the Koran.


I don't know Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, so does that mean I can't ever read a Bible?

No because we fought long religious wars over the translation of the bible into the "vulgar" a along time ago, and now the bible is translated into nearly every language on earth, in fact the is a group of evangelists who are so devoted to this task that they try to make contact with indigenous peoples who don;t HAVE a written language, just so they can create one for them and translate the Bible into it.  Islam, however, like Judaism doesn't allow their sacred scriptures to be translated out of the original language.   Thus is you don't speak Hebrew you have not actually read THE Holy Torah (in fact they make kinda a big deal out of the first time a boy does this at temple..you may have heard of this) and if you cannot read classical Arabic you have never read the Koran.  In fact it is generally considered the vilest blasphemy imaginable to translate it into any other language.


A majority of Muslims on the planet don't know Arabic.
An even larger percentage don't know Classical Arabic.
There are translations of the Qur'an in over 100 languages. None of them are considered "blasphemy."
 
2013-04-23 01:54:43 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-23 01:59:53 PM

sheep snorter: [i.imgur.com image 500x333]


Don't disrespect Trailer Park Jesus.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-23 02:04:17 PM

nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".


First, any right minded human doesn't blame all Muslims for the acts of the few that create terror.

Unlike those who continually try to link "tea party" rallies to violence.

Please - do tell us of all the incidents linked to the Tea Party.

Go ahead - we'll wait...
 
2013-04-23 02:05:58 PM
mamoru:
Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


Just because a gun owner flipped out and shot up a school doesn't mean that all gun owners are insane and coming to kill you.

Does it work for the 2nd Amendment, too?
 
2013-04-23 02:07:34 PM
It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males
 
2013-04-23 02:07:36 PM

the money is in the banana stand: You would call me a racist right? How is that any different when applied to religion?


You can quit a religion.  It's not genetic.

(Yes, I am bigoted against religion--all of them equally.)
 
2013-04-23 02:09:30 PM

give me doughnuts: There are translations of the Qur'an in over 100 languages. None of them are considered "blasphemy."


He's also wrong about Jews forbidding translation of the Torah (the reason it's a big deal when a kid first reads it is because it's the first time he gets to lead the service as the community's representative). Orthodox, Hasidic and other ultra-observant groups fund translations into English, Yiddish, Arabic and pretty much every other language on Earf.

Maybe it was correct a thousand years ago or more (supposedly, the day the Torah was translated into Greek was a great tragedy, but even the Talmud argues that it made the text more accessible to lay folk), but these days, every holy book can be found translated into every major dialect.
 
2013-04-23 02:10:33 PM

MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males



You're not really good at counting, are you?
 
2013-04-23 02:16:13 PM

give me doughnuts: MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males


You're not really good at counting, are you?


Oh, was the older idiot slightly above age 24?  Whatever.  You've avoided the point while being technically correct on the internet.  This means you are a special, intelligent person who is completely unlike everyone else on the internet.  Your mother must be very proud.
 
2013-04-23 02:16:36 PM

Dr Dreidel: He's also wrong about Jews forbidding translation of the Torah (the reason it's a big deal when a kid first reads it is because it's the first time he gets to lead the service as the community's representative). Orthodox, Hasidic and other ultra-observant groups fund translations into English, Yiddish, Arabic and pretty much every other language on Earf.

Maybe it was correct a thousand years ago or more (supposedly, the day the Torah was translated into Greek was a great tragedy, but even the Talmud argues that it made the text more accessible to lay folk), but these days, every holy book can be found translated into every major dialect.


Well once the door is opened, its opened. However:

- When the Torah was first translated into Greek, they decreed a fast day that lasted for centuries before the number of Rabbinical fast days had to be reduced. It was considered a tragedy that forever darkened the world. When we see how it was then used by xians to commit atrocities during centuries, not too hard to understand why

- Hebrew is the only language that is considered to be truly holy, and while translations are accepted because, well the floodgates are opened anyway, the fact is that the main language of teaching and learning is still in Hebrew. Go to any Yeshiva, even for Baalei Teshuva, and they will teach you using your language + Hebrew and tell you you really need to learn Hebrew to properly study
 
2013-04-23 02:18:21 PM

Darth_Lukecash: UNC_Samurai: I'm totally cool with Quakers.



I don't trust the Quakers: they gave us Nixon.


Beat out ghandi for the Nobel peace prize, too
 
2013-04-23 02:22:20 PM

IlGreven: On that subject (and risking bringing the gun-nuts in), didja ever notice that the blame game on stuff like metal, rap, D&D, videogames, teh ghey, etc. for school shootings et al came after the 2nd Amendment uber-alles nuts came into power in the NRA? Or, in other words, "blame everything but the guns"?


It was comics in the 1950s. It was talkies in the 1930s. It was booze in the 1920s. How far back do you want to chart the social ills of the age before you run into a weak NRA?
 
2013-04-23 02:25:54 PM

Tatsuma: Go to any Yeshiva, even for Baalei Teshuva, and they will teach you using your language + Hebrew and tell you you really need to learn Hebrew to properly study


Been there, and every rabbi I ever had (even the Israeli ones) taught in English (but I was in America or at a yeshiva for American students). In order to study a text, any scholar would tell you that learning the native language is preferable to studying a translation. Who was it who said "Translation is interpretation"? Also, when it comes to memorization, "breaking your teeth on it" (as Rabbi Krakauer shiata used to say) makes it far more "sticky" than simply hearing it in your lingua franca.

Hey, remember in (I wanna say gemara Sanhedrin) where they discuss whether it's OK for the mitargum to read every section behind the reader? (I may be botching the discussion or location.) The whole point was that people were losing the ability to understand the actual text, and that having it translated would at the least provide the lessons of the text, if not the text itself.

The legend of the septuagint and the history of it, I feel, have a large gulf separating them.
 
2013-04-23 02:29:17 PM

This text is now purple: IlGreven: On that subject (and risking bringing the gun-nuts in), didja ever notice that the blame game on stuff like metal, rap, D&D, videogames, teh ghey, etc. for school shootings et al came after the 2nd Amendment uber-alles nuts came into power in the NRA? Or, in other words, "blame everything but the guns"?

It was comics in the 1950s. It was talkies in the 1930s. It was booze in the 1920s. How far back do you want to chart the social ills of the age before you run into a weak NRA?


It's a widely-known fact that notable gun enthusiast and PMRC member Tipper Gore was paid under the table by then-NRA president Charlton Heston to focus on music at the expense of the influence of guns regarding the increase in student tardiness, bad attitudes, and inventive youth slang terms in the 1980's.
 
2013-04-23 02:30:17 PM

Mrtraveler01: thunderbird8804: LavenderWolf: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

Because every time there's a negative story about Islam in the US, innocent Muslims get their mosques defaced and subjected to worse-than-average racist attacks?

Well that makes it okay then!

Because no matter how many times you tell people, people will associate the scumbags like the one in Boston to all Muslims in general.


Again, well that makes it okay then!

Yes, radical Islam is bad but so is radical Christianity, radical Judaism, etc.

Don't give me this false equivalence nonsense.  The difference in degree between radical Islam and radical every other religion at this point in time is so extreme that to my mind it has to constitute a difference of kind.

But yet we don't associate all Christians with abortion clinic bombers and we don't actively try to prevent a church from being built.

If people are going to treat all Muslims like the guys in Boston, why can't I treat all Christians like Eric Rudolph?


Because you know that's stupid, stop being so glib.

/And relevant expansion on this by Hitchens
//And Harris
 
2013-04-23 02:30:36 PM

Dr Dreidel: Been there, and every rabbi I ever had (even the Israeli ones) taught in English (but I was in America or at a yeshiva for American students). In order to study a text, any scholar would tell you that learning the native language is preferable to studying a translation. Who was it who said "Translation is interpretation"? Also, when it comes to memorization, "breaking your teeth on it" (as Rabbi Krakauer shiata used to say) makes it far more "sticky" than simply hearing it in your lingua franca.


I'm sure that they were teaching in English. I'm in (break from) Yeshiva in Israel, and we learn in English. None of the texts in front of us are in English, however, and I highly doubt you studied them in English either.

Dr Dreidel: Hey, remember in (I wanna say gemara Sanhedrin) where they discuss whether it's OK for the mitargum to read every section behind the reader? (I may be botching the discussion or location.) The whole point was that people were losing the ability to understand the actual text, and that having it translated would at the least provide the lessons of the text, if not the text itself.


That would only be in relation with Torah readings in order that they understand what was happening, not teaching.

I'm not saying that *teaching* in any language is forbidden and bad, after all we know that Moshe himself translated the Torah in 70 languages and explained it to the Bnei Yisrael before we entered the land. The problem comes from studying on your own from translations.

You just can't do that. Especially when it comes to Gemara. With Artscroll you barely get the translation and the pshat somewhat explained, you don't get Rashi or Tosfot or all the other tools that one needs to even understand what's happening on the page.

Hebrew is still 100% required for any study that is above the level of a 4th grader.
 
2013-04-23 02:31:15 PM

MaliFinn: give me doughnuts: MaliFinn: It wasn't Islam, Islam is an excuse.  It was from a larger, more consistently destructive demographic:

Age 18-24 American males


You're not really good at counting, are you?

Oh, was the older idiot slightly above age 24?  Whatever.  You've avoided the point while being technically correct on the internet.  This means you are a special, intelligent person who is completely unlike everyone else on the internet.  Your mother must be very proud.


And you're like a lot of people with their head deep in the sand.
 
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