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(Salon)   Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. ... Was Islam. That was easy   (salon.com) divider line 400
    More: Obvious, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Islam, Dzhokhar, Tamerlan  
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23942 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2013 at 10:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-23 11:50:41 AM  
I'm puzzled as to why the "Why did they do this?" question deserves any attention whatsoever. Doesn't acknowledging the motive give these murderers the validation that they originally sought?  Murderers should be punished for what they did without any consideration for why they did it.

If understanding what motivated these murderers brought us a centimeter closer to preventing this in the future, then it would be worth debating, but I am certain that it doesn't. I firmly believe that the discussion encourages another attack. The discussion about the spectrum of tolerance and intolerance of religion is now in the limelight and that means that the act of mass murder is effectively classified as terror.

This is like a traffic jam on a highway in the opposite direction of a wreck. Why doesn't everyone realize that if we stopped rubber necking, the traffic would flow without impediment? Just like the traffic accident, we should let the authorities and justice system sort this out. Every minute that Anderson Cooper et al. spends on this topic is a victory for the shallow cause of murderers.
 
2013-04-23 11:51:51 AM  

Tatsuma: Magorn: Someone who picked up Islam in Chechnya is very Unlikely to have caught a Wahhabist strain. Salafist perhaps, but not Wahhabist, and from YOU, I won't accept "they all look a like to me", you know better

Except that he didn't pick up Islam in Chechnya. First of all, he became radicalized in America, and if you look at his youtube feed (and the twitter of his brother) they were very keen on Wahhabist preachers from Saudi Arabia. Second of all, where he went to train for this in 2012 for six months was in Dagestan, which is the Caucasus Wahhabist central.

And by the way, out of Dagestan in the 90s the Wahhabists did move on to Chechnya in order to form cells and change the country as well.

So yeah, maybe you should think about doing your homework on this.


You've got a very different

Tatsuma: Do the people who pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam, and therefore giving cover and protection to Radical Islamists, realize just how much Muslims everywhere around the world suffer under the hand of those Islamists? Whether it's the Talibans in Afghanistan poisoning schoolgirls, the Vice Police in Saudia Arabia beating a man and woman to death for speaking in a super-market or Muslim Brotherhood thugs forcing 'virginity tests' on women protesting in front of Parliament, the first victims of Islamic fundamentalism are other Muslims.

There is a difference between Mainstream Islam and Radical Islam, but the more we pretend that there is not, the easier it is for the Radicals to come over and poison the minds of Muslims in America itself and leading to situations like it did with these two brothers. They are already well advanced in Europe, let's not let it happen in America.

American Muslims by far overwhelmingly reject them, but there are some serious and scary signs that they are gaining traction in America. By staying silent or pretending they don't exist, things only become worse.

Embrace American Muslims by rejecting the radicals.


I don't think anyone is "defending" radical anything. But they do want a distinction made between the relgion and the actions of people like this.   Whenever stories filter out of Israel of the actions of extremist ultra-ultra-Orthodox sects, that seem almost Taliban-like, you are the first one to step up and say to people, "These guys are NOT representative of mainstream Judaism not even the Orthodox kind, they are abunch of misguided fantics who most of us can't stand"   and rightfully so, because that's the truth, and you have an interest in not seeing something you care about painted with a broad brush by the actions of a stupid few.   I'm Roman Catholic, so I can't tell you how many times I've been compelled to post, "Hey not ALL priests are kiddy-farkers, just SOME of them" .  I think Muslims are entitled to the same disclaimers.   There are over 1 Billion Muslims in this world,  the vast majority of whom are fine people, and they should be allowed to say "hey these asshats are not on us" just like we can.
 
2013-04-23 11:51:52 AM  

Tatsuma: jso2897: A good place to start might be to stop pretending that anyone is pretending that. Fighting strawmen is easy, but it doesn't impress the observer who has any brains.

Yeah no one is sayi-

nekom: So it was Islam, ostensibly.  Big frickin deal, that's nothing new.

mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.

Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

IlGreven: Nope. Still think Islam had about as much to do with the plot as to whether or not they were "real 'Murcans".

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.

Bedstead Polisher: I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.

and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant.


NO, sorry - those people are only pointing out what you have said yourself - that it is not Islam  as such,
but a radicalized version thereof that attracts people who are probably assholes to begin with - you might just as well have quoted yourself.
I'm sorry, dude, but you don't have any special, privileged knowledge to impart to the rest of us.
Nobody here is "naive", and nobody here needs you to downsplain reality to them.
 
2013-04-23 11:53:54 AM  

jso2897: nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.

Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.


The Mongols 'win' by a mile on the atrocity level pre-age of exploration, they actively carried out genocidal campaigns in northern china cause some princes stayed home instead of sending troops
 
2013-04-23 11:53:56 AM  
Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?
 
2013-04-23 11:54:30 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Cut out "athletic", and that's me. (I'm broad. And fat.)


Keep beating anorexia, patriot!

I'm in the at-risk group too. I even have Dzhokhar's hair (well, about 2/3 of it left). I've decided to be less friendly and stylish; that should mark me as a loyal American.
 
2013-04-23 11:55:01 AM  

Tatsuma: American Muslims by far overwhelmingly reject them, but there are some serious and scary signs that they are gaining traction in America. By staying silent or pretending they don't exist, things only become worse.

Embrace American Muslims by rejecting the radicals.


I love you Tat but on this you are wrong. You have taken on the sanitized American idea of what Islam is. While it sounds reasonable to not paint an entire 1 billion people with the same brush what Islam is always comes back to its roots. You cant change what Islam is. Mohammed was what he was. He said and did what he did. As long as the entire religion is based on the idea that one man speaks for god and only that man speaks for god then you are forced to look to that man and how he lived for what is the heart of god.
 
2013-04-23 11:55:08 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.


UNC_Samurai: Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.

Yes, only Islamic extremists plant bombs:

[www.talkingpointsmemo.com image 425x528]


Yup!  The global movement of Christians to carry out assassinations of abortion doctors is in full force!!!
 
2013-04-23 11:56:39 AM  

ShadowKamui: jso2897: nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.

Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.

The Mongols 'win' by a mile on the atrocity level pre-age of exploration, they actively carried out genocidal campaigns in northern china cause some princes stayed home instead of sending troops


Well, if you start applying qualifications like "pre-age of exploration", or whatever, you can make anybody the "winner" you want to. The issue to me is whether it's a discussion worth having. I think not, so if you want to have that discussion, you'll have to have it with someone else.
 
2013-04-23 11:56:47 AM  

Tatsuma: Bedstead Polisher: I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.

and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant.


That's exactly what I said.
 
2013-04-23 11:57:31 AM  

Magorn: There are over 1 Billion Muslims in this world,  the vast majority of whom are fine people, and they should be allowed to say "hey these asshats are not on us" just like we can.


You would think that, but then where are they?  Granted, some do speak up.  However, there are so many others that are either silent <read as apathetic> or genuinely supportive.
 
2013-04-23 11:57:31 AM  
@Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?
 
2013-04-23 11:58:24 AM  
We must defend our religion by pissing off the most powerful country on earth. A country that could blow us all to tiny bits and turn our holy lands into glass by pressing a button.

Yeah, that sounds like religious 'reasoning' alright.
 
2013-04-23 12:00:52 PM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?


We need to require extended background checks with a two week waiting period before you can practice Islam. Also, a federal tax on copies of the Qur'an might help...
 
2013-04-23 12:01:41 PM  

I_C_Weener: Pants full of macaroni!!: Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?

We should ban assault style Islam.  No pistol grips, no flash suppressors, and only 1 Koran per member.  Also, only one pressure cooker per mosque, and then only after background checks.


I would be okay with applying this across the board.  My mother might complain about what this will do to potluck Sundays at our old church, but I think they'll adapt.

/...to the pressure cooker rule, not the flash suppressor rule
//that would be a problem at the OTHER protestant church further down the road
 
2013-04-23 12:01:45 PM  

balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?


religion needs to be regulated sensibly, like we need new sensible gun regulations.

/ threw this up yesterday also
/ vomit
 
2013-04-23 12:01:48 PM  
It was either going to be mental illness or fanatical religion. Granted, the latter isn't there without the former.
No mentally sound person would stay in the town and plan for a violent death, much less do a bombing against random people.

"But... but what about Christians!"

fark them, too. Also the Jews and Hindus and anyone else eager to throw away the world for their idol.
 
2013-04-23 12:02:05 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Basically most people who are a new convert to something, be it religion, vegetarianism, exercise regime.  They go full bore into it as if it's the most wondrous thing since sliced deities.  They want to make sure you know about it, and get all offended if you're not as excited about their epiphany as they are.


That's why I'll never let Mr. Delite get a taste of anal.
 
2013-04-23 12:03:20 PM  

FLMountainMan: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity.

Sounds about right.  A majority of Christians believe that WBC should legally be allowed to do what they do.


ohyou.jpg
 
2013-04-23 12:03:37 PM  

Tatsuma: and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant


It is relevant in that it explains the motivation. That is where the relevance stops. The Derpers will say that it is clear evidence that Islam is a batshiat murder-frenzy cult and thus we must make every effort to destroy it (for the Glory of BibleGod and his boy Jesus, most likely).

The Tsarnaevs were born cultural muslims in the same way most American Christians are born to it, celebrating Christmas & Easter but rarely reading the Bible except maybe 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 at cousin Jimmy's wedding. Then as another poster commented, the elder brother became directionless and sought his religious roots for a sense of purpose.

In this way he's no different than Tim McVeigh. Consider T McV: a loyal, native-born American citizen, awkward teen, but successful as an enlisted soldier in the US Army, Persian Gulf War Veteran, honorably discharged after turned down for the special forces. Directionless, he turned to radical separatism, the White Supremecists and the Militia Movement. Stand up against this oppressive US Government Regime! It gave him a sense of purpose and meaning, and if you REALLY believe, you do something big to show you're serious and not just a dilettante.

Same dynamic. But saying, "Oh, see, he's Muslin so we best fire up the War Machine and invade [petroleum/natural gas producing nation of your choice]" is pointless and stupid, UNLESS you can prove that the country in question sponsored it or consciously allowed someone in their borders to sponsor it.

Beyond that, the Muslim Doesn't Matter.
 
2013-04-23 12:04:01 PM  

KellyX: @Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?


I ask that question in every one of these "biatch and moan about Islam" threads. I never get an answer (except "joke" answers).
 
2013-04-23 12:05:14 PM  
Diogenes:

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

That's my question. How are you "defending Islam" by bombing innocent people at the Boston Marathon?
 
2013-04-23 12:05:44 PM  

Magorn: I don't think anyone is "defending" radical anything.


We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see saying 'This has nothing to do with Islam! They just wanted to kill people' as anything but a defense of Radical Islam, as everything these guys did was motivated and centered around Islam, however distorted their own version of it was.

Magorn: I think Muslims are entitled to the same disclaimers.


Yes and that's why I make it painfully clear in my posts that there are huge differences. (Still will be accused of being a bigot who hates all Muslims, though, I'm sure that's coming soon)

KellyX: Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?


*sigh*

That's the hard part, isn't it? One of the major problems in terms of stopping radicalization is that we're just so friendly with Saudi Arabia. If we wanted to really curb any influence that these people have on American Muslims, we would have to basically stop accepting most Saudi Imams who want to come to America to preach, to severely limit the number of religious material sent from Saudi Arabia and really inquire into what they are sending exactly, and so on. That would still leave us with the problem of the internet, how they reach a whole lot more people due to its ease of access.

Not only are we allies with Saudi Arabia and therefore can't do this, but some of those are also unconstitutional as shiat, mosque and state separation and all.

So in the end, I'm not sure how we can really do anything about it. One thing I know, though, to fool ourselves and pretend it's not a growing problem in America is not the solution but a major part of the problem.
 
2013-04-23 12:06:10 PM  

Tatsuma: jso2897: A good place to start might be to stop pretending that anyone is pretending that. Fighting strawmen is easy, but it doesn't impress the observer who has any brains.

Yeah no one is sayi-

nekom: So it was Islam, ostensibly.  Big frickin deal, that's nothing new.

mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.

Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

IlGreven: Nope. Still think Islam had about as much to do with the plot as to whether or not they were "real 'Murcans".

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.

Bedstead Polisher: I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.

and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant.


So by quoting me you're asserting that these brothers in fact would be law abiding angels if not for Islam.  Ah, then twisting it to make your argument by confining it to radical Islam.  Congratulations on moving the goal posts.  I'm not completely disagreeing with your revision.  Just read the headline again.  Tell me your head hasn't been hurting when you find that all aspects of Islam are subject to scrutiny because of the radical faction.  I'm not Muslim but I can't bring myself to hate all Muslims for any reason.  Yes, even after last week.

My point is that these guys in particular already hated me.  That's the core of this.  They later found flawed reasoning and justification of violence through radical Islam - a natural partnership based on their heritage, and mostly unfortunate based on the level of destructive knowledge available within that faction.  Would you also assert that they couldn't/wouldn't have looked elsewhere, such as another religion or nationalistic fanaticism?  There's truly no way of knowing, but I'm comfortable believing these guys were bad apples to begin with.
 
2013-04-23 12:06:17 PM  

jso2897: KellyX: @Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

I ask that question in every one of these "biatch and moan about Islam" threads. I never get an answer (except "joke" answers).


Well a good start would be to distance yourself from all extremists instead of carrying water for them.
Also calling out MSNBC, salon.com and any other organization that makes excuses or buries their head in the sand.
 
2013-04-23 12:06:38 PM  

jso2897: KellyX: @Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

I ask that question in every one of these "biatch and moan about Islam" threads. I never get an answer (except "joke" answers).


That's because you've probably been smart enough to plonk the rabid idiots who would deport them from this country altogether.  And/or nuke the countries they came from.  They're in this thread, sadly, if your filter is out of date.
 
2013-04-23 12:08:24 PM  

LL316: Sorry, but an anti-Republican article on HP is no better than an anti-Dem article on Fox.  Find a different source and it would be much better at proving your point.


the article uses stanford's global terrorism database as a source, but nice try.
 
2013-04-23 12:11:13 PM  

bluefox3681: jso2897: KellyX: @Tatsuma

Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

I ask that question in every one of these "biatch and moan about Islam" threads. I never get an answer (except "joke" answers).

Well a good start would be to distance yourself from all extremists instead of carrying water for them.
Also calling out MSNBC, salon.com and any other organization that makes excuses or buries their head in the sand.


So, in other words, a bunch of vague, subjective hand-waving that has no actual, concrete meaning?

About what I expected.
 
2013-04-23 12:11:41 PM  
This is all because he was a boxer and suffered one too many concussii.

BAN BOXING!!!!!
 
2013-04-23 12:13:13 PM  

AngryJailhouseFistfark: Tatsuma: and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant

It is relevant in that it explains the motivation. That is where the relevance stops. The Derpers will say that it is clear evidence that Islam is a batshiat murder-frenzy cult and thus we must make every effort to destroy it (for the Glory of BibleGod and his boy Jesus, most likely).

The Tsarnaevs were born cultural muslims in the same way most American Christians are born to it, celebrating Christmas & Easter but rarely reading the Bible except maybe 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 at cousin Jimmy's wedding. Then as another poster commented, the elder brother became directionless and sought his religious roots for a sense of purpose.

In this way he's no different than Tim McVeigh. Consider T McV: a loyal, native-born American citizen, awkward teen, but successful as an enlisted soldier in the US Army, Persian Gulf War Veteran, honorably discharged after turned down for the special forces. Directionless, he turned to radical separatism, the White Supremecists and the Militia Movement. Stand up against this oppressive US Government Regime! It gave him a sense of purpose and meaning, and if you REALLY believe, you do something big to show you're serious and not just a dilettante.

Same dynamic. But saying, "Oh, see, he's Muslin so we best fire up the War Machine and invade [petroleum/natural gas producing nation of your choice]" is pointless and stupid, UNLESS you can prove that the country in question sponsored it or consciously allowed someone in their borders to sponsor it.

Beyond that, the Muslim Doesn't Matter.


Well certainly most Muslims are just people, it's been a thousand years or so since a Pope declared holy war on the non-believers. How often do we hear Muslim leaders calling for jihad? Religious problems tend to come from the top down, and as bad as Christians standing on the corner screaming about the Gheys are, they tend not to blow people up at the urging of the church.
 
2013-04-23 12:13:28 PM  

beanx: This is all because he was a boxer and suffered one too many concussii.

BAN BOXING!!!!!


Boxing seems to be doing a pretty good job of dying off all by itself.
 
2013-04-23 12:14:09 PM  

TrixieDelite: Diogenes:

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

That's my question. How are you "defending Islam" by bombing innocent people at the Boston Marathon?


By killing the unbelievers.
 
2013-04-23 12:15:05 PM  

Tatsuma: KellyX: Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

*sigh*

That's the hard part, isn't it? One of the major problems in terms of stopping radicalization is that we're just so friendly with Saudi Arabia. If we wanted to really curb any influence that these people have on American Muslims, we would have to basically stop accepting most Saudi Imams who want to come to America to preach, to severely limit the number of religious material sent from Saudi Arabia and really inquire into what they are sending exactly, and so on. That would still leave us with the problem of the internet, how they reach a whole lot more people due to its ease of access.

Not only are we allies with Saudi Arabia and therefore can't do this, but some of those are also unconstitutional as shiat, mosque and state separation and all.

So in the end, I'm not sure how we can really do anything about it. One thing I know, though, to fool ourselves and pretend it's not a growing problem in America is not the solution but a major part of the problem.


Ok, so there is no solution, just realize that radical islamist exist and deal with them as they pop up...?

Pretty sure that is what's going on now...
 
2013-04-23 12:16:21 PM  

jso2897: ShadowKamui: jso2897: nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.

Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.

The Mongols 'win' by a mile on the atrocity level pre-age of exploration, they actively carried out genocidal campaigns in northern china cause some princes stayed home instead of sending troops

Well, if you start applying qualifications like "pre-age of exploration", or whatever, you can make anybody the "winner" you want to. The issue to me is whether it's a discussion worth having. I think not, so if you want to have that discussion, you'll have to have it with someone else.


Its more that the whole booga-bogga Christians evil cause of the crusades and the inquisitions while everyone else was far less bad back then is a BS story people try to tell themselves to hate on Christians

Timur & Genghis Khan were far more heinous in their acts and Timur was by some accounts doing it cause Sunni Islam "was the best".  Its not to condone what people did in the name of God/Jesus, but yeah anybody trying to claim worst atrocity ever is completely full of it.
 
2013-04-23 12:16:27 PM  
 
2013-04-23 12:16:53 PM  

nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".


Or Fark, when talking about Republicans or Christians?
 
2013-04-23 12:17:13 PM  

KellyX: Tatsuma: KellyX: Ok ok ok... Don't ignore radical islam...

What is the solution then?

*sigh*

That's the hard part, isn't it? One of the major problems in terms of stopping radicalization is that we're just so friendly with Saudi Arabia. If we wanted to really curb any influence that these people have on American Muslims, we would have to basically stop accepting most Saudi Imams who want to come to America to preach, to severely limit the number of religious material sent from Saudi Arabia and really inquire into what they are sending exactly, and so on. That would still leave us with the problem of the internet, how they reach a whole lot more people due to its ease of access.

Not only are we allies with Saudi Arabia and therefore can't do this, but some of those are also unconstitutional as shiat, mosque and state separation and all.

So in the end, I'm not sure how we can really do anything about it. One thing I know, though, to fool ourselves and pretend it's not a growing problem in America is not the solution but a major part of the problem.

Ok, so there is no solution, just realize that radical islamist exist and deal with them as they pop up...?

Pretty sure that is what's going on now...


Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.
 
2013-04-23 12:17:22 PM  

EWreckedSean: TrixieDelite: Diogenes:

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

That's my question. How are you "defending Islam" by bombing innocent people at the Boston Marathon?

By killing the unbelievers.


Late to the party, with old, tired shiat.
Get some fresh lines, dude.
 
2013-04-23 12:17:32 PM  

balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?


Not that it matters, but not all Constitutional rights are unregulated.  We don't let Mormons marry multiple women, or Aztecs sacrifice humans.  We probably shouldn't let Christians or Muslims kill people.
 
2013-04-23 12:17:52 PM  

KellyX: Ok, so there is no solution, just realize that radical islamist exist and deal with them as they pop up...?


Actually becoming energy independent and then treat Saudi Arabia as the pariah state should be treated is probably the first step we can actually do.
 
2013-04-23 12:18:46 PM  

thunderbird8804: We are at war, to digress briefly, with Islamic fundamentalism modern Islam, which tends to breed fundamentalists.

/That should cover roughly half the thread

 
2013-04-23 12:18:54 PM  

ShadowKamui: jso2897: ShadowKamui: jso2897: nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.

Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.

The Mongols 'win' by a mile on the atrocity level pre-age of exploration, they actively carried out genocidal campaigns in northern china cause some princes stayed home instead of sending troops

Well, if you start applying qualifications like "pre-age of exploration", or whatever, you can make anybody the "winner" you want to. The issue to me is whether it's a discussion worth having. I think not, so if you want to have that discussion, you'll have to have it with someone else.

Its more that the whole booga-bogga Christians evil cause of the crusades and the inquisitions while everyone else was far less bad back then is a BS story people try to tell themselves to hate on Christians

Timur & Genghis Khan were far more heinous in their acts and Timur was by some accounts doing it cause Sunni Islam "was the best".  Its not to condone what people did in the name of God/Jesus, but yeah anybody trying to claim worst atrocity ever is completely full of it.


Exactly - which is why it's a discussion not worth having.
 
2013-04-23 12:19:37 PM  

EWreckedSean: Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.


Except that the overwhelming majority of terrorists come from upper-middle-class or better backgrounds, with at the very least a college education.


Yeah, the easier their lives are and the more educated they are, the more Muslims are likely to embrace radical Islam and support terrorism. So your cultural imperialism is not going to work for shiat in that situation
 
2013-04-23 12:20:44 PM  

Tatsuma: KellyX: Ok, so there is no solution, just realize that radical islamist exist and deal with them as they pop up...?

Actually becoming energy independent and then treat Saudi Arabia as the pariah state should be treated is probably the first step we can actually do.


What exactly is "energy independent"?

Does that really mean when we no longer need to use oil anymore?
 
2013-04-23 12:20:56 PM  

I_C_Weener: balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?

Not that it matters, but not all Constitutional rights are unregulated.  We don't let Mormons marry multiple women, or Aztecs sacrifice humans.  We probably shouldn't let Christians or Muslims kill people.


It's legal for Christians and/or Muslims to kill people? I'll have to give this "religion" thing another look.
Maybe i should take it up.
 
2013-04-23 12:21:16 PM  
I'm Catholic, and I participated in a crusade recently.

see, the pope wanted us to retake Hungary from the pagan Mongol horde, so I took my Ducal army over to the continent while I was secretly plotting the assassination of the heir to the throne of Ireland so that my kinsman could inherit the throne.

/DEUS VULT!
/ addicted to crusader kings 2
 
2013-04-23 12:21:20 PM  

EWreckedSean: Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.


Guess that explains the two bombers...
 
2013-04-23 12:21:57 PM  

balthan: Ok, Islam is the problem.  Now what?  Given that freedom of religion is a Constitutionally protected right, what would you have the government do?


Any religion ending with an "m" is outlawed.
 
2013-04-23 12:23:39 PM  

fireclown: Resident Muslim: /sorry, rushing and editing, so forgive me if some of this turned into waaaarbargle

No problem.  A turkey would have been fine, a Thanksgiving Turkey, not so much.

I was pretty sure that there were Muslims on Fark, but I could see a certain avoidance of some threads having developed over time.  Good on ya for providing a much needed service as ambassador.


Blushing? Who's blushing?!
;)

I've actually found Fark to be well-knowledged about Islam, with many non-Muslims (atheists, agnostics, Christians and Jews etc) dispelling many myths, and I personally thank them or that.
I know there are trolls here. Also people who have never met a Muslim in thier life and have painted their opinion with the broad brush of media and Hollywood, but they are few. I also have noticed the trend of -and I'm going to say it, I couldn't find an alternative word- the trend of enlightened people increasing here. People who have more awareness and are willing to question things and be more curious.

The Quran actually says (paraphrasing of my understanding) that to take an innocent life is like killing all of humanity.
The Prophet -peace be upon him- actually told the soldiers heading out to jihad (again same disclaimer) "do not kill a child, do not kill an old man, do not cut down trees" (looking at you agent orange).
If I believe that what I have is for the betterment of humanity, that it is for all people that one person who believes is better for me than the best of material goods, why would I do anything that makes this religion look bad?
Can you imagine me now going to one of the people affected directly or indirectly by the blast an saying something like "have you ever considered Islam?" "Do you seek serenity? Look into Islam." What do you think their response will be?
How is this something like this supposed to help?
 
2013-04-23 12:24:32 PM  

Tatsuma: EWreckedSean: Cell phones, iPads, McDonald's, pop music. Radicalization tends to die out when people are less miserable.

Except that the overwhelming majority of terrorists come from upper-middle-class or better backgrounds, with at the very least a college education.


Yeah, the easier their lives are and the more educated they are, the more Muslims are likely to embrace radical Islam and support terrorism. So your cultural imperialism is not going to work for shiat in that situation


Well, they are certainly more likely to be in a position to do something about it. What they are more likely to "embrace" is pure assumption on your part.
 
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