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(Salon)   Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. ... Was Islam. That was easy   (salon.com) divider line 400
    More: Obvious, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Islam, Dzhokhar, Tamerlan  
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23916 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2013 at 10:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-23 11:20:36 AM

mark12A: NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.


How many pledges on TV do you hear from christians planning to eradicate abortion doctor murderers?
 
2013-04-23 11:21:28 AM
Any religion which believes it is the One True Way (tm) is going to have conflict with another religion that believes it is the One True Way (tm). Especially so when those religions are proselytizing religions.

Nothing new here.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -- Seneca
 
2013-04-23 11:21:46 AM
Now that they did their 'defense' how is Islam safer? A religion with a billion odd followers needs bombs set off in crowds or it will disappear?  For all they knew there could have been a couple of groups of Muslims there to cheer in some friends or family in the crowd. Bombs don't select who dies on the basis of religion.
Their religion and humanity would have been better off if one of their bombs had detonated while they were making it.
 
2013-04-23 11:22:49 AM

Farking Canuck: mark12A: NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.

How many pledges on TV do you hear from christians planning to eradicate abortion doctor murderers?


How often is there an abortion doctor murdered?
 
2013-04-23 11:22:56 AM
He should have said it was to impress Jodie Foster.
 
2013-04-23 11:23:01 AM
FTA:  Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, wounded and held in a Boston hospital, said his brother wanted to defend Islam from attack, according to the source.

Maybe someone should tell them that most Americans never had a problem with Islam, up to the point they started coming to the U.S. and attacking our citizens.   Even when they were attacking our military outside our country's borders, most Americans didn't have too much of a problem with Islam.

Want to defend and improve Islam... STOP ATTACKING AMERICAN CIVILIANS!
 
2013-04-23 11:23:14 AM
Oh, so you committed a terrorist act to defend Islam?
wildhunt.org
 
2013-04-23 11:23:30 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.

Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI


farking greentards.

NUKE THE WHALES! GLASS, uh, SWIMMING POOL!

/ seriously, fark the enviro nuts
 
2013-04-23 11:24:29 AM

DreamSnipers: For all they knew there could have been a couple of groups of Muslims there to cheer in some friends or family in the crowd. Bombs don't select who dies on the basis of religion.


It is likely that they either were linked with Al-Qaeda members in 2012 when the older brother spent some time in Dagestan, and they certainly were connected to them online through propaganda and such.

4 out of 5 Al Qaeda victims are Muslims. Yes, even including the thousands who died at the World Trade Center.

In fact by on killing non-Muslims they went against the grain of their organization.
 
2013-04-23 11:24:35 AM

Tatsuma: Second, these guys mostly put bombs in empty buildings to protest against animal cruelty and so on, they don't usually go around murdering people.


Still terrorism. Just not the murdering kind.
 
2013-04-23 11:24:46 AM

Tatsuma: We should not be burning Korans, but we should not be burying our heads in the sand and pretend that radical Islam is not a problem, and try to run in every direction trying to find scapegoats.


Who is saying the radical Islam isn't a problem? How many NATO countries are currently embroiled in Afghanistan against an enemy who opposes democracy, educating women and almost anything to do with modern civilization?

The issue isn't whether radical Islam (or radical anything) is a threat, it's how to proportionally respond to that threat. Radical elements of any group, religion or ideology are dangerous specifically because they are more rigid in their world view, are more likely to place the ends far above the means and view those they who feel aren't "true believers" as below contempt and essentially expendable.

Fundamentalist or radical Islamic groups aren't dangerous because they're Muslim, they're dangerous because they're radical.
 
2013-04-23 11:24:54 AM

Tatsuma: jso2897: And that would be stupid. We should only burn Korans, like sensible people.

We should not be burning Korans, but we should not be burying our heads in the sand and pretend that radical Islam is not a problem, and try to run in every direction trying to find scapegoats.

I mean in this thread I've already learned that: really right-wing xians are the real terrorists, really environment nutcases are the real terrorists and really Islamic terrorism does not really exist.

Those are some major major delusions going on


If we really MUST get serious about this, yes, it is true. While a real asshole can turn any ideology or belief system into an excuse for mayhem, the Cult of Kali, for example, probably lends itself to that purpose better than Zen Buddhism does.
But at the same point, I can't help but be amused at the solemn lecturing that some people engage in on this subject - as if they were privy to some special information that the rest of us "naive" folks are somehow unaware of. Not everybody processes information the same, and not everybody turns every real or potential threat into an excuse for paranoia and/or bigotry.
 
2013-04-23 11:24:56 AM
To be fair, if you were just standing around protecting Islam, and thousands of people came running RIGHT AT YOU, you'd be tempted to blow them up too.

How could he possibly have known it was a marathon and not the Inquisition all over again?
 
2013-04-23 11:25:22 AM

LL316: Farking Canuck: mark12A: NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.

How many pledges on TV do you hear from christians planning to eradicate abortion doctor murderers?

How often is there an abortion doctor murdered?


What is the required frequency of a religious atrocity to justify denouncing it? I wasn't aware there is a minimum.
 
2013-04-23 11:25:43 AM

QueenMamaBee: I_C_Weener: vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.

Then one frightful post Boston bombing morn
Anti-Christians came to say
Rudolph with your Christian terrorism
Won't you falsely equate to Islam?

Then all those haters loved him
And they shouted out with glee
Eric Rudolph, you will go down as Christianity's greatest monster!

Wouldn't Jim Jones be a better (worse?) Christian monster?


Jim Jones is a complicated case.  Maybe he was a Christian once?  It became a mask for utopian socialism, which was itself just a mask for his own cult of personality. A "true believer" in Christianity he was not.
 
2013-04-23 11:26:17 AM

Pants full of macaroni!!: Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?


We should ban assault style Islam.  No pistol grips, no flash suppressors, and only 1 Koran per member.  Also, only one pressure cooker per mosque, and then only after background checks.
 
2013-04-23 11:26:28 AM
And Westboro Baptist Church is "defending Christianity"
 
2013-04-23 11:26:45 AM

dogfather_jr: To be fair, if you were just standing around protecting Islam, and thousands of people came running RIGHT AT YOU, you'd be tempted to blow them up too.

How could he possibly have known it was a marathon and not the Inquisition all over again?


Crusade, not inquisition. Nobody expected the Crusades.
 
2013-04-23 11:27:01 AM

Farking Canuck: But those guys have scary little knives on their belts. They must be turrists!!


Not at all: Sihks, and also Scotsmen (well, true Scotsmen at least) are old-school 2nd Amendment heroes. They are to be applauded.

...Now that I think about it, my grandma told me that "coloreds" always carry knives, so I guess they're cool too.

Are there any other hero ethnic groups? Sing out!
 
2013-04-23 11:27:03 AM

Tatsuma: LL316: Just because he says he was defending Islam does not mean Islam is to blame. Any random nutjob could kill children in the name of dog lovers everywhere...that doesn't mean I, as a dog lover, approve of his actions.

The problem is that nowhere in dog loving philosophy is it ever acceptable to do that, and there is no 'dog loving' philosophy in the first place.


There are certain branches of Islam who openly advocate terrorism against civilians. Is it mainstream Islam as practiced by the vast majority of Americans? Of course not. However, it exists and just closing your eyes, clenching your fists and saying 'no no no no no' is not going to change that.


I agree with this completely.  I just don't like lumping them all in together just because they have a few more ugly/embarassing/murderous relatives than the normal family has.  Just look at their uncle for proof that those who follow Islam can be totally awesome.

I think it might simply be a matter of wordin.  Every rational person is against the extremist militant factions of any religion (Islam or otherwise).  So instead of stressing the Islam portion, those who hate terrorism should stress the extremist portion.  Wouldn't that stop the stupid debate (Islam sucks, no Islam doesn't suck!) and put it where it needs to be...on the terrorists?
 
2013-04-23 11:27:17 AM

Dr Dreidel: Fast Thick Pants: Memo to nuke-em-all Muslim bashers: your new stereotype is a friendly, well-dressed, athletic young white man with an American accent and a slightly larger-than-average nose. There are a lot of 'em out there, so get busy. Please don't shoot any Sikhs this time.

Cut out "athletic", and that's me. (I'm broad. And fat.)

// also browner than most
// European/Jewish by ancestry, agnostic by choice


Listen.  I'm at work.  I don't have time to go to Banana Republic to display my rage and throw things.  Besides, if I miss people and damage the clothes, I'll have to pay for them.  And I refuse to pay their prices.  I'm just going to have to hate someone else.
/Stupid janitors
 
2013-04-23 11:27:53 AM

Diogenes: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

[t0.gstatic.com image 231x218]
[crow202.org image 460x295]

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree.  Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc.  But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.


Sadly, the people who think that "we are at war with Islam" are too ignorant to understand your fancy book-learnin' words.  In fact, just by typing them, you're automatically the enemy.
 
2013-04-23 11:28:17 AM

Voiceofreason01: And Westboro Baptist Church is "defending Christianity"


Don't be giving them ideas. Do you really want the Jihadists to all get law degrees and start trolling and suing everybody?
 
2013-04-23 11:28:32 AM
Do the people who pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam, and therefore giving cover and protection to Radical Islamists, realize just how much Muslims everywhere around the world suffer under the hand of those Islamists? Whether it's the Talibans in Afghanistan poisoning schoolgirls, the Vice Police in Saudia Arabia beating a man and woman to death for speaking in a super-market or Muslim Brotherhood thugs forcing 'virginity tests' on women protesting in front of Parliament, the first victims of Islamic fundamentalism are other Muslims.

There is a difference between Mainstream Islam and Radical Islam, but the more we pretend that there is not, the easier it is for the Radicals to come over and poison the minds of Muslims in America itself and leading to situations like it did with these two brothers. They are already well advanced in Europe, let's not let it happen in America.

American Muslims by far overwhelmingly reject them, but there are some serious and scary signs that they are gaining traction in America. By staying silent or pretending they don't exist, things only become worse.

Embrace American Muslims by rejecting the radicals.
 
2013-04-23 11:29:46 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI


Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.


BZZZT you're both wrong. most domestic terrorists - the ones who actually harm or kill other americans - are of the right wing variety.
 
2013-04-23 11:29:52 AM

victrin: Oh, so you committed a terrorist act to defend Islam?


yes. al Qaeda is against us blowing up Muslims, and al Qaeda blows up Muslims all the time.

al Qaeda: yet another member of the "do as I say, not as I do" club. with explosives.
 
2013-04-23 11:30:21 AM

Farking Canuck: LL316: Farking Canuck: mark12A: NEVER do I hear pledges ON TV, in open public, from them to eradicate radicals from their religion. Never. Just something mumbled in a news story.

How many pledges on TV do you hear from christians planning to eradicate abortion doctor murderers?

How often is there an abortion doctor murdered?

What is the required frequency of a religious atrocity to justify denouncing it? I wasn't aware there is a minimum.


Once would be nice.  My original question wasn't said in a smartassed manner.  I was genuinely curious...has it ever happened?  I don't remember any instances, that's all.
 
2013-04-23 11:31:17 AM

over_and_done: Diogenes: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

[t0.gstatic.com image 231x218]
[crow202.org image 460x295]

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

Put in those terms, yeah, it's silly.

But as an overall strategy used by Al Qaeda, it's worked to a degree.  Sure, you and I can see it's a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc.  But there are many American and Westerners, as well as many Muslims, that believe we are at war with Islam.

Sadly, the people who think that "we are at war with Islam" are too ignorant to understand your fancy book-learnin' words.  In fact, just by typing them, you're automatically the enemy.


Something I find particularly hilarious is when they cite Chamberlane, Churchill, etc., and make pronouncements about "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" - and then propose another round of the Crusades.
Yeah, moron - those who forget history ARE doomed to repeat it.
 
2013-04-23 11:32:19 AM

FlashHarry: PC LOAD LETTER: Actually, most terrorists are environmental activists, according to the FBI

Z1P2: Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.

BZZZT you're both wrong. most domestic terrorists - the ones who actually harm or kill other americans - are of the right wing variety.


Sorry, but an anti-Republican article on HP is no better than an anti-Dem article on Fox.  Find a different source and it would be much better at proving your point.
 
2013-04-23 11:32:58 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Still terrorism. Just not the murdering kind.


And your numbers are still wrong, environmental nuts are not responsible for the most acts of terrorism in this country, sadly Muslims are. Here is a list of all the terror attacks that were stopped between 2009 and 2012.

Guess what 95%+ of them have in common? Radical Islam. Not the Earth Liberation Front.

LL316: I agree with this completely. I just don't like lumping them all in together just because they have a few more ugly/embarassing/murderous relatives than the normal family has. Just look at their uncle for proof that those who follow Islam can be totally awesome.


Look I agree completely and that's why we have to be very clear that the vast majority of Muslims in America reject that shiat. At the same time, we can't be saying that 'Islam had nothing to do with the Boston bombings'. It had everything to do with it, but in the radicalized form.
 
2013-04-23 11:33:41 AM

Tatsuma: Do the people who pretend that this has nothing to do with Islam blah, blah, blah....


A good place to start might be to stop pretending that anyone is pretending that. Fighting strawmen is easy, but it doesn't impress the observer who has any brains.
 
2013-04-23 11:33:54 AM

Voiceofreason01: And Westboro Baptist Church is "defending Christianity"


Not too many around these parts defend the WBC or consider them paragons of Christianity.  Pretty much they are the opposite of how a Christian should act.
 
2013-04-23 11:35:39 AM
A) Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
B) History always repeats itself.

C) No one learns anything, ever.
 
2013-04-23 11:36:05 AM

LL316: I was genuinely curious...has it ever happened? I don't remember any instances, that's all.


Wikipedia lists 6 since 1993. Followed by a long list of attempted murders, arsons, and other instances of property damage.
 
2013-04-23 11:36:07 AM

Because People in power are Stupid: Convert or die, said Cortez.


FTFY
 
2013-04-23 11:37:21 AM

doubled99: A) Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
B) History always repeats itself.

C) No one learns anything, ever.


D) Profit??
 
2013-04-23 11:37:46 AM
if you don't think Zen Buddhism can lead to mayhem, including genocide, check out imperial Japan during WW2... the code of bushido (which is Zen based), and that whole stupid neo-samurai thing they tried.

/the Zen of bushido is as much "real" Zen as any other.
 
2013-04-23 11:38:39 AM

Farking Canuck: Just out of curiosity: What percentage of muslims are radical?


The only one that matters was 100% radical. Any orginization is only as good as its leader. It is defined by its leader. Mohammed was an evil man doing evil things. No amount of fark love of Islam changes that reality. Osama bin Laden was not some nutjob doing things that are totally out of line with the mainstream. He was an intelligent thoughtful man who studied Mohammed and correctly interpreted what Islam is supposed to look like. He read and studied the Koran and the Hadiths and he got it right I hate to tell you. Islam will always be dangerous because the peace loving Muslims are completely at odds with what Mohammed taught and how he lived. There will always be elements with Islam that truly want to be what Islam wants them to be. Who want to live as Mohammed would want them to live. Those are the people that are dangerous to the rest of us.
 
2013-04-23 11:39:04 AM
So people of Islam faith hate marathons.
 
2013-04-23 11:39:20 AM
Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.
 
2013-04-23 11:39:22 AM

I_Am_Weasel: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Basically most people who are a new convert to something, be it religion, vegetarianism, exercise regime.  They go full bore into it as if it's the most wondrous thing since sliced deities.  They want to make sure you know about it, and get all offended if you're not as excited about their epiphany as they are.


Tbh i find its more the new converts with an addictive personality. The same people that need to avoid drugs or get hooked hard. They seem like bloody fanatics and have had a few friends become almost intolerable.
But yeah even the balanced ones want to talk about the great new thing in their life that you need to hear about.
 
2013-04-23 11:39:56 AM

legion_of_doo: if you don't think Zen Buddhism can lead to mayhem, including genocide, check out imperial Japan during WW2... the code of bushido (which is Zen based), and that whole stupid neo-samurai thing they tried.

/the Zen of bushido is as much "real" Zen as any other.


I would have difficulty thinking that any intelligent adult could seriously believe that ANY belief system cannot be bent into a tool of evil.
Trouble is, I can't take this entire discussion seriously.
 
2013-04-23 11:42:29 AM

jso2897: A good place to start might be to stop pretending that anyone is pretending that. Fighting strawmen is easy, but it doesn't impress the observer who has any brains.


Yeah no one is sayi-

nekom: So it was Islam, ostensibly.  Big frickin deal, that's nothing new.


mbillips: "Islam" caused this the way videogames caused the Columbine massacre. Losers gonna lose.


Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.


IlGreven: Nope. Still think Islam had about as much to do with the plot as to whether or not they were "real 'Murcans".


rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.


Bedstead Polisher: I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.


and it goes on and on like that, people pretending that either Islam had nothing to do with it, or was just a convenient excuse. It was not. Islam, the radical version of Islam, was at the core of this. It was at the core of the Al Qaeda plot that was stopped in Canada yesterday. And a lot of people are pretending it's not the case or irrelevant.
 
2013-04-23 11:43:49 AM

nmemkha: Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities


Bullcrap. That is revisionist history. Christianity was one battle away from being wiped out in Europe. Muslims were taking land as fast as they could ride through it. The first Crusade was completely about survival for the church and Christianity in general. The subsequent Crusades were more about land grabs and there is where a lot of the atrocities you speak of came into it but to try and hold Islam blameless during that time in history is revisionisit history and wrong.
 
2013-04-23 11:44:21 AM

Darth_Lukecash: Big difference between the middle eastern dark skinned Alqueda plot that some suspected. Instead we got two honky Chechnya self radicals trying to " protect" Islam. One of them was a naturalized citizen

Kinda like how all those attracts by other radicals always seem to be done by lone wolfs.


Is being such an apologist exhausting?  Just seems like it must be....
 
2013-04-23 11:45:13 AM

nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.


Depends on how you measure atrocity. In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty, the Christians win. In terms of indiscriminate indifference to the fate of the innocent, I'd give it to Muslims. On the other hand, for pure efficiency of human slaughter, the modern political ideologies (fascism, communism)get the prize.
It's kind of a crappy contest, though, when you think about it.
 
2013-04-23 11:45:26 AM

nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.


BS, go ask a Persian how much peace and love Timur spread
 
2013-04-23 11:45:32 AM

legion_of_doo: if you don't think Zen Buddhism can lead to mayhem, including genocide, check out imperial Japan during WW2... the code of bushido (which is Zen based), and that whole stupid neo-samurai thing they tried.

/the Zen of bushido is as much "real" Zen as any other.


It was in fact often used as a justification for war, piracy and general dickishery

i.imgur.com

nmemkha: Meh. Come read up on the history of the Christian church.

Muslims have a LONG way to go to get to Crusades/Inquisition level atrocities.


The Catholic Church has not been busy torturing and killing tens (if not hundreds if you add in Iraq at this point) of thousands of people over the last decade. Islamic fundamentalists sure as fark have been.
 
2013-04-23 11:48:07 AM

runescorpio: Tbh i find its more the new converts with an addictive personality.


They were not converts, they were born Muslims, they just became more religious after their mother asked them to.

jso2897: In terms of pure, deliberate cruelty,


Are you kidding? Not only in terms of numbers do they win (seriously, the inquisition? very few people died all in all) but there is some serious cruel shiat going on right now in the Middle East. Have you not seen the new finger cutting machine used by the Iranian government for example?

Have you not read about torture chambers of those groups in the Middle-East?

... you are seriously wrong.
 
2013-04-23 11:50:09 AM

Fast Thick Pants: Memo to nuke-em-all Muslim bashers: your new stereotype is a friendly, well-dressed, athletic young white man with an American accent and a slightly larger-than-average nose. There are a lot of 'em out there, so get busy. Please don't shoot any Sikhs this time.


ohcrapohcrapohcrapohcra-

Wait, I'm not even slightly athletic anymore.  Whew!
 
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