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(Salon)   Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. Wasn't Islam. ... Was Islam. That was easy   (salon.com) divider line 400
    More: Obvious, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Islam, Dzhokhar, Tamerlan  
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23950 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2013 at 10:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-23 10:30:41 AM  
Religion of Peace™
 
2013-04-23 10:31:43 AM  

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


Because only Christians, whites and gun owners can be denigrated by the media. It's in their handbook.
 
2013-04-23 10:31:59 AM  
Apparently, all it takes to go from average nightclubbing, Boxing, drinking cafeteria muslim to mass murdering nutbird is for someone to make fun of the pom-pom on your hat.
 
2013-04-23 10:32:09 AM  

miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.



I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.
 
2013-04-23 10:33:04 AM  

rkiller1: It was NOT Islam.  They wanted to blow up people and found a convenient excuse.  Let me say again: psychopath first, religious/political/whatever, second.

If he were Christian, he wudda blown up an abortion clinic, or a Walmart.


They had some pretty good radical Muslim role models to follow.

If he was Democrat he would have blown up a corporation. Right?
 
2013-04-23 10:33:18 AM  

miss diminutive: Magorn: While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.

Usually people like that backpack across Europe or take up drinking; he decided to blow up people. I don't think this was simply an existential crisis, he obviously had some greater motive and meant to send a message, regardless of how nonsensical or twisted that message may be.


He sorta did that by going on a visit to the ancestral homeland (note he never actually LIVED in Chechnya, like many ethnic Chechens he actually lived in Dagestan-where Stalin more or less transported the whole country as punishment for an earlier rebellion).  Once there, he saw the devastation of a VERY nasty 7 year war that the Russians fought with thier usual grim efficency and disregard for civillian casualties, and sort latched on to "The cause" as his new purpose.   It's not unlike what happened to many Americans of Irish extraction who visited Ireland during "the troubles" and came back ranting about "the Cause" and supporting Sinn Fein's fundraising efforts (looking at YOU here Rep. Peter King)
 
2013-04-23 10:34:10 AM  
 
2013-04-23 10:34:58 AM  

FLMountainMan: Sounds about right. A majority of Christians believe that WBC should legally be allowed to do what they do.


To be fair, the WBC doesn't actually murder people.  Annoying as all get out, but not murderers.
 
2013-04-23 10:35:02 AM  

JNowe: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.


I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.


Well... he encouraged a lot of non-Muslism to be seen defending Islam. Not the same thing.

/Cynicism.
 
2013-04-23 10:35:14 AM  
So they received no outside help, yet they were both unemployed, one was a student, and they had a house AND an apartment?
 
2013-04-23 10:35:14 AM  

fireclown: About Islam and turkeys:  Just in case we have some Muslim farkers on here, isn't turkey considered halal so long as the bird is slaughtered in accordance with religious rules?


I can't really speak for Islam, but I once attended a lecture about Jews celebrating Thanksgiving - the central question is "Is Thanksgiving a religious holiday?" If so, there may be a problem with observing another religion's holiday (the chief method of "observing" this particular holiday being the bird and cranberries and stuffing and gravy and pumpkin pie and hot cocoa and pecan pie and *drool*

// spoiler alert: the lecture ended with "it's not really a religious holiday, but if being thankful on the 4th Thursday of November makes you uncomfortable, skip the turkey dinner"
 
2013-04-23 10:35:43 AM  

JNowe: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.

I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.


Well, the last time there was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists on American soil where civilians died the US soon became embroiled in two costly, long-lasting, bloody conflicts. A call for perspective and rational action isn't completely unwarranted.
 
2013-04-23 10:36:21 AM  

Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.


Quoting this because it's a thing that should be quoted. Something shiatty happened in this guy's life that flipped the switch from good to ear-twitchingly bazoo. Allah was a front-seat passenger on the road to crazy, he picked the radio station but he wasn't driving.
 
2013-04-23 10:36:55 AM  

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


I think those are the keywords. People are equating Islam with those who are extremists who just happen to be Muslim.
I've known hijab-wearing Muslims who were very faithful, but, like most major religions, believe in loving one another and being respectful to other faiths. It's those that use their religion as an excuse to hate that are the problem, whatever their faith.
 
2013-04-23 10:37:17 AM  

JNowe: miss diminutive: So in order to defend your faith from attack, you decide the best course of action would be to kill innocent civilians, virtually guaranteeing a negative reaction and increased suspicion directed towards your faith?

When this guy said he didn't understand Americans, he really wasn't joking.


I dunno, he seems to have encouraged a lot of non-Muslims to rush to defend Islam.


Yeah, but those are the ones incapable of doing anything other than talking, so it's cool.
 
2013-04-23 10:37:18 AM  
We all know that the best defense is a good offense, right guys?
 
2013-04-23 10:37:27 AM  

Wendy's Chili: Meanwhile, Muslims foiled yet another terror plot.


That's what makes it seem so clear the Boston bombers acted alone. If they'd been hooked up with Al Qaeda, the FBI would have been listening in on all their conference calls, and offering to provide them the bombs.
 
2013-04-23 10:39:12 AM  

another cultural observer: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

You're removing a gigantic variable from the equation of world history and pretending there's no way it would have made a difference.

These guys might not have even been BORN if Islam didn't exist.  The removal of Islam from history could create a major paradox, destroying life as we know it.  If we were lucky, the damage would only be limited to this solar system.

Start thinking 4th-dimensionally.


SHIAT!  Is it too late to take it back?  I'd be sad if we lost this solar system, but even more sad about the galaxy, since those people from Area 51 seemed so nice before they crashed and we cut them all up.
 
2013-04-23 10:40:48 AM  
But David Axelrod and CNN told me it was Tea Partiers.  What happened?
 
2013-04-23 10:41:23 AM  
I can't believe this!! IF these dudes were brown, there would be no doubt in anybodys mind that this was a Islamist Jihadist attack, but now that these dudes are white everybody seems to be making up excuses on how this could happen to anybody. Yes! this is a muslim terrorist attack. Muslims come in all colors. Does everybody realize that there are a lotta yellow muslims as well (eg. Indonesia), so if you see an attack from an Asian looking muslim extremist - is that gonna confuse the hell outta everybody again? It's the religion - it's not the color of their skin.
 
2013-04-23 10:42:29 AM  

Diogenes: Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.


Whether they were poor representatives depends upon how representative they were.
They were poor at public relations. Or were they?
 
2013-04-23 10:43:12 AM  

bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.


But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

Most Americans still don't know anything about Muslims aside from news stories like this and what they're told by Nationalistic websites. Ask any Islamic American who was here at the time how their lives were changed by 9/11, and you would have been praying Boston was unrelated too.
 
2013-04-23 10:44:27 AM  

FlashHarry: //just that some of the most brutal, heinous crimes in the past 20 years, from 9/11 to so-called "honor killings,"  have been committed in its name


I don't disagree.  But just for one second pretending people didn't invest their values in (their interpretation of) religious rules, some people, probably the same amount that we've been seeing lately, would still find a way to justify horrible actions.  Locally, antigovernment militias and their outcasts have been pretty quiet, but we'll hear from them again.
 
2013-04-23 10:44:28 AM  

Magorn: Diogenes: vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.

Well that's what I'm getting at with "message."  The reasons behind his attacks were either intuitively clear (abortion clinics) or he provided a reason.

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

My guess for a while was that he was panning a series fo bombings in major cities over the next few months that was going to be capped with a statement along the lines of "See? this is how it feels to live in Chechneya EVERY DAY for average Chechens and you Americans aren't lifting a finger to help"

But I may be giving him WAAAAY to much credit for rational planning and coherent messaging


Certainly conceivable.  But their behavior after the fact doesn't make much sense.  Trying to hide in plain sight?  Robbing a convenience store?  Thank goodness for sloppy criminals and terrorists.
 
2013-04-23 10:45:10 AM  

WelldeadLink: Diogenes: Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

Whether they were poor representatives depends upon how representative they were.
They were poor at public relations. Or were they?


I wonder who's doing more work to define the message - them or us.
 
2013-04-23 10:45:50 AM  

another cultural observer: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

You're removing a gigantic variable from the equation of world history and pretending there's no way it would have made a difference.

These guys might not have even been BORN if Islam didn't exist.  The removal of Islam from history could create a major paradox, destroying life as we know it.  If we were lucky, the damage would only be limited to this solar system.

Start thinking 4th-dimensionally.


If your parents (or anyones) were interrupted by a marketing phone call, or a TV episode was better than normal (or worse) so they went to bed at a different time the night you were conceived, it is very likely a different sperm would have fertilized the egg (or it might not have happened at all), and thus you would have ~25% different genes to what you actually ended up with (including a 50% chance of being a different gender), which would have fundamentally changed many millions of decisions and events that happened to you since then, and thus it is hard to say "you" would exist at all.
 
2013-04-23 10:46:34 AM  
Oh look. Muslims blowing up innocent people in the name of their religion. I'm shocked, SHOCKED.

/Not really
//Nuke'em all!
 
2013-04-23 10:46:54 AM  
Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.
 
2013-04-23 10:47:18 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: another cultural observer: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

You're removing a gigantic variable from the equation of world history and pretending there's no way it would have made a difference.

These guys might not have even been BORN if Islam didn't exist.  The removal of Islam from history could create a major paradox, destroying life as we know it.  If we were lucky, the damage would only be limited to this solar system.

Start thinking 4th-dimensionally.

SHIAT!  Is it too late to take it back?  I'd be sad if we lost this solar system, but even more sad about the galaxy, since those people from Area 51 seemed so nice before they crashed and we cut them all up.


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-04-23 10:47:51 AM  

Diogenes: Magorn: Diogenes: vpb: Does anyone remember Eric Rudolph?  Seems very similar.

Well that's what I'm getting at with "message."  The reasons behind his attacks were either intuitively clear (abortion clinics) or he provided a reason.

Yes, terror is terror.  But how effectively are you "defending Islam" when the target and cause are so seemingly disconnected?  Not only were these punks bad terrorists (thank goodness) but they were poor representatives of their so-called cause.

My guess for a while was that he was panning a series fo bombings in major cities over the next few months that was going to be capped with a statement along the lines of "See? this is how it feels to live in Chechneya EVERY DAY for average Chechens and you Americans aren't lifting a finger to help"

But I may be giving him WAAAAY to much credit for rational planning and coherent messaging

Certainly conceivable.  But their behavior after the fact doesn't make much sense.  Trying to hide in plain sight?  Robbing a convenience store?  Thank goodness for sloppy criminals and terrorists.


Without the cameras of our "surveillance state" these guys would still be on the loose planning step 2.  Serious ying/yang issues there regarding the proliferation of cameras.
 
2013-04-23 10:49:21 AM  
"Convert now... or fall forever."

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-04-23 10:49:25 AM  

Robert1966: So they received no outside help, yet they were both unemployed, one was a student, and they had a house AND an apartment?


And multiple vehicles...
 
2013-04-23 10:50:02 AM  

nekom: mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion

Good points. I think what we have here is a typical "us vs. them" situation. The "us" and "them" could be anything, really. Religion, politics, skin tone, whatever petty difference they can find. Then it just gets reinforced in some circles. Then it festers in the mind. It becomes an obsession. Every little thing you see in the news is "GRRRRRRRRRRR farking THEM!!!!! GAH! HATE HATE HATE!!! They are NOT US!!! RABBLE!!!" No different than a tea party rally, an ALF meeting, or any other group that perceives everyone else as "the enemy".


All very, very good points. Of course, what you eventually realize, once your span of conceptualization becomes sufficiently encompassing, is that "Us vs. Them. (and they are evi-i-i-i-i-l-l-l-l-l-!...)" is part and parcel of enabling top-heavy, self-serving, over-spending, responsibility-shirking, heavy-handed national governments, and ours is a prime example.
 
2013-04-23 10:50:30 AM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: Cool.  So, when do we ban Islam?


No news to ban it. Just slap a warning label on it.
 
2013-04-23 10:50:32 AM  

Magorn: Let me just say this as vaguely as possible.  If what I hear from someone who claims to know the wife of the older brother is true,   then this whole hyper-religious thing with him is a VERY recent development and he was perfectly fine being a decadent American before that.  While Islam was the window dressing for this, it wasn;t the REAL motivation, which, I supect had to do with the older brother suddenly having no farking clue what his life was about after he realized his Olympic dreams were never going to come true.


Consider yourself Favorited. And  great deal of respect on your cool minded very Post. I concur wholeheartedly.
 
2013-04-23 10:50:32 AM  

advex101: Without the cameras of our "surveillance state" these guys would still be on the loose planning step 2. Serious ying/yang issues there regarding the proliferation of cameras.


Except it was private cameras that identified them, not public CCTV, not some federally mandated black box on our cars that rats on us, etc.  Surveillance state is bad.  Forcing people to incriminate themselves with their own footage is bad.  A store volunteering their security tape to identify the bomber is not bad.
 
2013-04-23 10:50:59 AM  

mamoru: Yeah, but based on this summary of a few sources (specifically cites NPR and the WSJ), the brother basically was to mainstream Islam what Westboro Baptist is to mainstream Christianity. He stood up during a sermon and loudly complained to his imam's suggestion that it was okay celebrate American holidays. He got pissy in a halal meat shop because they were advertising Thanksgiving turkeys.

Just because Islam turned out to be the channel for these idiots' insanity, that doesn't mean all Muslims are insane* and are all coming to kill you. Just sayin', keep some perspective.

*or at least any more insane than your average random member of any other mainstream religion


The problem is that Islam wasn't just the channel that these hateful idiots used to outlet their insanity. Islam amplified their hatred and insanity.
 
2013-04-23 10:51:10 AM  
Why do I have the feeling that the people who REALLY care that Islam was the motivation for these bombs are the same people who complain that hate crime laws criminalize thought?

Did they suddenly realize that motive is important in criminal cases, or are they just bigots trying to excuse certain types of hate crime?
 
2013-04-23 10:51:12 AM  
Preliminary interviews with Dzhokhar Tsarnaev indicate the two brothers fit the classification of self-radicalized jihadists, the source said. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, wounded and held in a Boston hospital, said his brother wanted to defend Islam from attack, according to the source.

...by making people want to attack it?

/religious thought is nonsensical
//batshiat insane fundamentalist thought even more so
 
2013-04-23 10:51:13 AM  

Mrbogey: Robert1966: So they received no outside help, yet they were both unemployed, one was a student, and they had a house AND an apartment?

And multiple vehicles...


millions of latino immigrants are technically unemployed but work every day and have all the things that you list above.
 
2013-04-23 10:51:18 AM  
I'm not saying it was Islam... but it was Islam.
 
2013-04-23 10:51:36 AM  
1. Sounds like the older brother was an arrogant jerkwad before he got religion, and after he got religion, just like usually happens. Only difference is afterwards he pretends he's on a Mission from God.

(Worst. Blues Brothers. Sequel. Ever.)

2. With little brother a.) claiming he was led by his big brother, and b.) being a photogenic skinny young guy with lots of curly brown hair who's c.) lying wounded in a hospital bed and d.) on his way to life in prison at least and a Federal death sentence at most, I bet the flood of letters from the usual horde of lonely batshiat-crazy desperate 40ish single women who think they can "save" him through the power of troooo luuuuurve has already started.

So what's the over/under on a prison marriage? I'm thinking the first anniversary, plus or minus a week or two.
 
2013-04-23 10:52:06 AM  

xria: another cultural observer:


images3.wikia.nocookie.net

Oh GOD!  Stop it you guys.  My family's disappearing!  And I'm starting to shake!
 
2013-04-23 10:52:14 AM  

fireclown: About Islam and turkeys:  Just in case we have some Muslim farkers on here, isn't turkey considered halal so long as the bird is slaughtered in accordance with religious rules?


In case we have some Muslim Farkers?!
Fark has EVERYTHING.
I've seen it all here. All professions, all hobbies, all fields of study, all religions and last but not least all sexual orientations; including pre-op and post-ops (insert quagmire image here).

As for your point, yeah, you are right in that turkey is halal. I think the issue is a matter of "imitating" non-believers which is improper.
The question then remains of where do you draw the line? The Islamic scholars differ in this, an luckily enough in mainstream Islam you do not have one governing body, not even the Muftis* of Saudi Arabia, so you have the option of listening to different religious viewpoints a making a conscious decision which makes sense to you**, or if they all make sense (or all don't) people usually adopt the viewpoint of the scholar they've felt comfortable with before in terms of how he thinks.
So for the imitation thing, a "thou shall not celebrate thanksgiving since it is not OUR holiday" is probably the issue.
I've heard some extreme versions where people (usually not scholars) have said you shouldn't even wear the clothes of the "West." Dude, I'm sorry. Do you have any idea how cold it can get?

*clerics who issue fatwa, which is simply a religious decision or call, not "Fatwa on you! And a Fatwa on you!"
**I remember hearing one guy who said he heard a fatwa that you have to fast during Ramadan from sunrise to sunset, even I you are in a Scandinavian country in summer. But truth be told I never heard that myself. (Mainstream opinion is that if you are in such a country you fast according to the hours people fast in Mecca, so probably 4:30am-6:45pm)

/sorry, rushing and editing, so forgive me if some of this turned into waaaarbargle
 
2013-04-23 10:52:32 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.


They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.
 
2013-04-23 10:53:18 AM  
It is not Islam. It's extremism and can happen to anyone in any religion... or not in a religion.

But if it works for folks...
 
2013-04-23 10:54:15 AM  

bhcompy: advex101: Without the cameras of our "surveillance state" these guys would still be on the loose planning step 2. Serious ying/yang issues there regarding the proliferation of cameras.

Except it was private cameras that identified them, not public CCTV, not some federally mandated black box on our cars that rats on us, etc.  Surveillance state is bad.  Forcing people to incriminate themselves with their own footage is bad.  A store volunteering their security tape to identify the bomber is not bad.


I'm willing to be that every private camera that was hard mounted in the area had their files seized within hours of the blast.  Your security tape is just an extension of the government when circumstances dictate.
 
2013-04-23 10:55:13 AM  

Hickory-smoked: bluefox3681: But before we caught them, I remember a salon.com article just hoping that is wasn't muslims.
And then after we caught them, I remember msnbc doing their best to not mention Islam and comparing these guys to the columbine shooters.

Why all the covering for Islam?  Yes, all terrorists are not muslim and all muslims are not terrorists.  However, let's stop going out of our way to make excuses for any extreme ideology.

But that's just it. It's not an "extreme ideology" anymore than Christianity or Hinduism are. It's a wide range of sects, cultural groups and individuals which include more than a few total dicks.

Most Americans still don't know anything about Muslims aside from news stories like this and what they're told by Nationalistic websites. Ask any Islamic American who was here at the time how their lives were changed by 9/11, and you would have been praying Boston was unrelated too.


Oh please.  We don't have to try and find an equivalent evil in every culture as if that makes it all ok and equal.  7% of American muslims think that suicide bombings are justified.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/30/muslim-american-moderate-vi ew -survey_n_942555.html

Why don't we have more hand wringing about the 200,000 muslims in this country that are probably radicalized?  No, we would much rather point out that other cultures have killers too.  Let's stop bending over backwards to find excuses for this.
 
2013-04-23 10:56:00 AM  
Apparently, the two other victims of the murders on September 11, 2011 were two Jews that Tamerlan's ex-friend was friends with.

Makes the murder thesis even more plausible
 
2013-04-23 10:56:02 AM  

Tommy Moo: Nana's Vibrator: That settles it.  If Islam didn't exist, these guys would be law abiding angels.

They sure as hell wouldn't have planted a bomb at the Boston Marathon and you're a naive moron if you try to pretend otherwise.


So what's your plan? A "well informed" , non-naive, brilliant guy like you has a plan, right?
 
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