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(CNN) NewsFlash American citizen to be tried as an American citizen. Sadly, in 2013, this warrants a news flash   (cnn.com) divider line 492
    More: NewsFlash, American citizens, Boston, Don Lemon, Americans, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, Tsarnaev, Boston area  
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11209 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Apr 2013 at 2:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2013-04-22 02:37:25 PM  

Nabb1: FlashHarry: Nabb1: Iam opposed to the death penalty, but it is just a fact of life that some people need killin'.

yeah, that pretty much sums up my position too.

my main gripe against the DP is that it is irreversible.

That, of course, and it is hideously expensive and has never really been shown to have any true deterrent effect.  Most people who get executed in this day and age, of course, are horrible people who deserved their fate, but there have been some who did not deserve it.  I just can't justify an institution that could execute the innocent.

You and I have been agreeing a lot the past few days.  People are going to start talking.


*whispers and points at FlashHarry and Nabb1, giggling*
 
2013-04-22 02:37:27 PM  

ManRay: slayer199: He should be tried as an American citizen.

Of course, his defense will blame it on his older brother in an effort to get a reduction.

How about this: My older brother was the mastermind of the bomb plot and trigger man in the shooting. He threatened me with my life if I didn't go along with it. I was hiding out because I was scared and didn't know who to trust.


How about "Guilty of multiple counts of Felony Murder"? Do you want life in prison with no possibility of parole, or the same shot we give stray dogs?
 
2013-04-22 02:37:48 PM  

Treygreen13:
And the hundred plus injured including people missing arms and legs


That's worth remembering. A dozen or two people who have LIFE CHANGING injuries. Sure, at least they are alive, but there are some seriously MANGLED people because of this jackass.
 
2013-04-22 02:37:50 PM  

Vodka Zombie: What the hell else would you try an American citizen as?


I was tol that Obama is way worse than Bush because Bush admitted he tortured people while Obama forbade it publicly but we JUST KNOW he is lying. Since he's worse than Bush, he is capable of doing anything, including trying this kid as an enemy combatant.
 
2013-04-22 02:37:54 PM  
He's not going to get executed. I mean, even the 20th 9/11 hijacker didn't get the death penalty, and it's not like this kid is somehow worse.
 
2013-04-22 02:37:57 PM  

FlashHarry: slayer199: He should be tried as an American citizen.

Of course, his defense will blame it on his older brother in an effort to get a reduction.

well, that's their job.


Yep.
"The part I took in defense of captain Preston and the soldiers, procured me anxiety, and obloquy enough. It was, however, one of the most gallant, generous, manly and disinterested actions of my whole life, and one of the best pieces of service I ever rendered my country. Judgment of death against those soldiers would have been as foul a stain upon this country as the executions of the Quakers or witches, anciently."

John Adams (in his diary, thus the bit of backslapping) - a member of the original Tea Party, not the farce that currently calls itself that.
 
2013-04-22 02:38:02 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: I have a gentle reminder for the "enemy combatant" bullshiat crowd.

Our criminal justice system worked just fine for dealing with the following terrorists:

Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, the Unabomber, Eric Rudolph, Kevin Harpham, Charles Polk, Willy Lampley, Joseph Bailie, Peter Langan, Ray Hamblin, Larry Shoemake, Robert Starr III, John Pitner, Charles Barbee, Floyd Looker, Edward Taylor, Jr., Todd Vanbiber, William Goehler, James Cleaver, Chevie Kehoe, Daniel Lee, Faron Lovelace, Jack Grebe Jr., Johnnie Wise, Buford Furrow, Richard Baumhammers, Fritz Springmeier, Clayton Wagner, Michael Smith, Charles Barefoot, Jr., Larry Raugust, Matt Hale, David Hinkson, Sean Gillespie, Wade Lay, Ivan Braden, Demetrius "Van" Crocker, Daniel Schertz, Raymond Dillard, and Dennis Mahon.

/So sit the fark down, shut the fark up, and stop trying to spread fear, you maroons.
//Your unjustified poutrage is giving the adults among us headaches.


I don't notice anyone on there from a large, well-financed, broad-based militant religious sect.  In some instances, other methods may be appropriate.  In this case, though, I think the criminal justice system will work just fine.
 
2013-04-22 02:38:15 PM  

Great Janitor: FlashHarry: Great Janitor: Good, put him on trial, convict him, no plea bargain, and execute the son of a biatch.  Make the execute as soon as possible.  He doesn't deserve to live.

This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? This isn't Russia .

What does Russia have to do with anything?


it's a caddyshack quote.

my point was, your post read like you wanted a soviet-style kangaroo court in which the verdict is already known before it begins. and that here in america, everyone has the right to a fair trial.
 
2013-04-22 02:38:17 PM  

Treygreen13: we must also consider the innocent blood on our hands if even one person is killed by someone who should have been put to death, but wasn't.


Maybe you do. I don't.
 
2013-04-22 02:38:28 PM  

Galloping Galoshes: NostroZ: Galloping Galoshes: NostroZ: I think it would be a bigger show compassion to not kill him.

To show that we Americans are not some blood thirsty savages who can only be satiated by the icy grip of death.

You might be showing yourself (and the rest of the 1st world countries) that, but your enemies see only weakness.  You don't even have the stones to execute a murderer of children.  They will respect you even less than they already do.  Of course, if you do kill him, you make a martyr out of him.

Yes, I say, lets play by the THIRD WORLD RULES.
Kill him, his relatives, & his relatives-relatives...  as an EXAMPLE.

Maybe that's why we live in the FIRST WORLD.
We follow a set of laws and principles that draws people of principle and intelligence to this country from all over the world.

Perhaps you missed my point: either action has a downside.  If your enemy does not respect you, he is more likely to attack you.  On the other hand, if you make a martyr, his actions can be used to inspire further attacks.


No, I very much understand your logic of intimidating your enemy.
Yet, what I am trying to point out is that setting an example of being BETTER than your enemy in terms of respecting human rights, gets you more ALLIES from the ENEMIES corner.

It also clearly defines you.  What you believe in.
Why you fight.  Who you are. Who they are
 
2013-04-22 02:38:29 PM  

bloatboy: Nadie_AZ: Why is this even an argument?

From a legal/constitutional perspective, it is the difference between a criminal act, and an act of war.


To be fair, I don't think 2 guys going nutso is the same as a large group or country attacking the country.

I want them tried, so the idiots who actually liked what they did can see that our system is intact and stronger than their attempts to shake it.
 
2013-04-22 02:38:33 PM  

Nabb1: I am opposed to the death penalty, but it is just a fact of life that some people need killin'.


Not this one.

No martyrdom for this asshat, just a long, long lifetime of sitting in a box contemplating just how badly he screwed the pooch.
 
2013-04-22 02:38:47 PM  

Antimatter: Interesting choice of charges.  I'd expected 3-4 counts of murder, several dozen counts of attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon, and the usual mismash of property destruction, explosives, yatta yatta.

Makes me wonder if they chose something with a death penalty, to get him to plead out to a lesser murder charge for life in exchange for any information about his brother.


Probably, and I assume he'll face those charges (murder, assault etc.) in state court after he's likely found guilty in federal court,
 
2013-04-22 02:38:51 PM  

NostroZ: No, this is AMERICA!
In Russia the executioner's don't put on ski masks


Ah yes, Baghdad. One of America's most well known cities. There might not be any Americans in the shot either, but we won't let that get in the way!
 
2013-04-22 02:39:19 PM  

Galloping Galoshes: Perhaps you missed my point: either action has a downside. If your enemy does not respect you, he is more likely to attack you. On the other hand, if you make a martyr, his actions can be used to inspire further attacks.


In other words, worrying about consequences is irrelevant. What matters is what is right.
 
2013-04-22 02:39:23 PM  

Kittypie070: Kibbler: A dozen rightwing pundits and countless rightwing bloggers just fell to their knees and thanked the Lord, for now they have something to rage about for the next five years.

Wonderful.

They're gonna RAGE about lawful Constitutional legal procedure being correctly upheld.

This is a police matter, not war.


You ever read Michael German's essay, "Squaring the Error," about Law v War?
 
2013-04-22 02:40:08 PM  
If you ever wonder why the motivations of the left are generally suspect in the minds of regular people in fly-over country, then have a look at this thread.

Correlation does not equal causation, I suppose, but it does seem that if you supported the dweebs in the failed Occupy-X movement, your are more likely to worry about the Miranda rights of bombers.
 
2013-04-22 02:40:28 PM  

thurstonxhowell: Treygreen13: we must also consider the innocent blood on our hands if even one person is killed by someone who should have been put to death, but wasn't.

Maybe you do. I don't.


Well we'll have to agree to disagree. There are plenty of stories of people getting out of prison and killing again. We're responsible (as a society) for that as well.
 
2013-04-22 02:40:35 PM  

Kittypie070: Kibbler: A dozen rightwing pundits and countless rightwing bloggers just fell to their knees and thanked the Lord, for now they have something to rage about for the next five years.

Wonderful.

They're gonna RAGE about lawful Constitutional legal procedure being correctly upheld.

This is a police matter, not war.


www.cheshirecatstudios.com
 
2013-04-22 02:40:39 PM  

Treygreen13: There might not be any Americans in the shot either, but we won't let that get in the way!


i'm pretty sure they're all followers of muqtada al-sadr.

i do know that bush was watching live. i wonder if he jizzed in his pants as saddam's neck snapped.
 
2013-04-22 02:40:48 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: Charged with using a Weapon of Mass Destruction?

Fusion bomb?  WMD
Home made bomb in a pressure cooker?  Doesn't really seem like a WMD to me.


How is killing 3 people, blowing off 15 limbs and wounding 180 people NOT mass destruction?
 
2013-04-22 02:41:19 PM  
Can we please call them the brothers Krazymazov?

/also, the former Soviet republic of Dickasstan
 
2013-04-22 02:41:30 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Phony GOP Americans must be inconsolable.


Got it if ya spot it. GOP'ers are almost as fake as you Dems that run demonizing them at every chance while hypocritically doing worse.
 
jvl
2013-04-22 02:41:33 PM  
I really don't see this as surprising. During the Bush admin, twice a terrorist was found on US soil and twice they were tried normally. I'm pretty sure the Supremes would be pissed if it went any other way.
 
2013-04-22 02:41:48 PM  
Funny how the people who claim to love the constitution and their rights the most are usually the first to want to take them away from someone they disagree with.

Sorry rednecks, no lynching for you.
 
2013-04-22 02:41:56 PM  

sirgrim: How is killing 3 people, blowing off 15 limbs and wounding 180 people NOT mass destruction?


plus, boston is in mass., so there's that.
 
2013-04-22 02:42:09 PM  

letrole: If you ever wonder why the motivations of the left are generally suspect in the minds of regular people in fly-over country, then have a look at this thread.

Correlation does not equal causation, I suppose, but it does seem that if you supported the dweebs in the failed Occupy-X movement, your are more likely to worry about the Miranda rights of bombers.


What do Miranda rights have to do with anything? These aren't rights that are conveyed to a person prior to an interrogation, these are rights all U.S. citizens always have. The only relevance Miranda has is that anything he says prior to being given the Miranda warning may not be admissible in court.
 
2013-04-22 02:42:10 PM  

ManRay: How about this: My older brother was the mastermind of the bomb plot and trigger man in the shooting. He threatened me with my life if I didn't go along with it. I was hiding out because I was scared and didn't know who to trust.


Except you know, for the video of him dropping the bomb and running.
Court doesn't care about explanations.
Did you do it, or didn't you? That's the question.
 
2013-04-22 02:42:12 PM  

Galloping Galoshes: I don't notice anyone on there from a large, well-financed, broad-based militant religious sect.  In some instances, other methods may be appropriate.  In this case, though, I think the criminal justice system will work just fine.


No, there are plenty of fundie christians in that bunch.
 
2013-04-22 02:42:21 PM  

Treygreen13: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: and for the innocent blood we all have on our hands.

Of course, we must also consider the innocent blood on our hands if even one person is killed by someone who should have been put to death, but wasn't. And this includes other prisoners.

Just sayin', it's not a black and white issue.


It's fairly black and white. In one situation we're all metaphorically pushing the needle into an innocent man's arm. The other is a situation should probably be taken care of by proper sentencing guidelines and housing the prisoners properly. If a would-be death penalty case ends up being life in prison, the nature of that crime should determine whether or not the prisoner is ever in a position again to kill, be that through supermax confinement or whatnot.

While not a perfect example, would Peter Parker be more or less responsible for Uncle Ben's death if he had stabbed him with his own hands? Does the street thug not have any agency in this situation?
 
2013-04-22 02:42:25 PM  

Treygreen13: NostroZ: No, this is AMERICA!
In Russia the executioner's don't put on ski masks

Ah yes, Baghdad. One of America's most well known cities. There might not be any Americans in the shot either, but we won't let that get in the way!


Lol.  You got me there... Baghdad might as well be ours after a TRILLION dollars spent.
 
2013-04-22 02:42:31 PM  
I just feel sorry for who ever sold them their guns. Even if it was a 100% on the level legal sale from a gun shop, that shop is going to be run out of town when it is announced that they sold them the guns.
 
2013-04-22 02:42:35 PM  

Random Anonymous Blackmail: TheShavingofOccam123

Probably without legal counsel present. And I'm sure they'll wait until he's off all medication, out of critical condition and in reasonable health before they tortu...er, question him.

They forced medication to Loughner so he would be mentally "competent" to face trial.

I don't want to see him die, then his journey would be complete. Stick him in a dark rapey corner and forget about him.


In Arizona, if you're mentally ill, they'll still try you and convict you. You serve out your sentence in a state mental institution until you are judged competent, then it's off to a state prison for the rest of your term.

Yeah, compassion.

I tend to think the people who do that to the mentally ill do it because they are mentally ill and full of self-loathing. Much like many homophobes who are actually homosexual. I know, that's crazy thinking.
 
2013-04-22 02:42:47 PM  

Joe Blowme: Kittypie070: Kibbler: A dozen rightwing pundits and countless rightwing bloggers just fell to their knees and thanked the Lord, for now they have something to rage about for the next five years.

Wonderful.

They're gonna RAGE about lawful Constitutional legal procedure being correctly upheld.

This is a police matter, not war.

[www.cheshirecatstudios.com image 400x302]


No, she's right. We screwed up by letting it be defined by Al Qaeda. I'd rather AQ not get to tell us how we treat the matter.
 
2013-04-22 02:42:48 PM  

sirgrim: Shrugging Atlas: Charged with using a Weapon of Mass Destruction?

Fusion bomb?  WMD
Home made bomb in a pressure cooker?  Doesn't really seem like a WMD to me.

How is killing 3 people, blowing off 15 limbs and wounding 180 people NOT mass destruction?


Every US soldier using grenades is now using WMDs?
 
2013-04-22 02:42:50 PM  

whenIsayGO: The weirdest thing about all this is the definition of WMD. The Iraq War made it sound like it's limited to nukes, bio/chem weapons -- the kind of things that can kill millions in a single attack.  Not a pot with some gunpowder and nails in it.

Now we need a new word for the things that can kill more people than conventional weapons.


These guys killed four people. Lanza killed 26 with a gun. "Killing more people" has little to do with it.

A farking spork will be a WMD before some people are done.
 
2013-04-22 02:43:04 PM  

Treygreen13: thurstonxhowell: Treygreen13: we must also consider the innocent blood on our hands if even one person is killed by someone who should have been put to death, but wasn't.

Maybe you do. I don't.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. There are plenty of stories of people getting out of prison and killing again. We're responsible (as a society) for that as well.


Again, no, we're not. We are absolutely not responsible for the future misdeeds of every person we could have killed. That's ridiculous.
 
2013-04-22 02:43:38 PM  

cretinbob: Except you know, for the video of him dropping the bomb and running.


Where is this?
 
2013-04-22 02:44:16 PM  

Glendale: That honestly seems like very few charges and skips over a lot of other things they did.


..creating a nuisance.
 
2013-04-22 02:44:31 PM  

skullkrusher: Shrugging Atlas: Charged with using a Weapon of Mass Destruction?

Fusion bomb?  WMD
Home made bomb in a pressure cooker?  Doesn't really seem like a WMD to me.

I think any bomb is considered a WMD. Not to be confused with the WMDs that Saddam moved to Syria


True, True. The Boston Marathon bombs actually existed
 
2013-04-22 02:44:50 PM  

ongbok: I just feel sorry for who ever sold them their guns. Even if it was a 100% on the level legal sale from a gun shop, that shop is going to be run out of town when it is announced that they sold them the guns.


i wonder if a background check would have prevented anything.

/ducks
 
2013-04-22 02:45:09 PM  

Eirik: ever given federal parole?


skullkrusher: I am pretty sure double jeopardy would apply if he were first acquitted federally and then retried locally for the same crimes


There is no parole in the federal system. A sentence of life imprisonment is just that. There is no getting out early. If you are sentenced to a term of years, you can get a slight break for good behavior, but it is only about 32 days for each year you are in prison.

I doubt it would be a double jeopardy problem. All you need is for one element of the crime to be different, and the federal crime is pretty specific. I am sure there is a state crime about blowing people up that could be charged even if he were acquitted on the federal charges. And he could certainly be charged for state crimes of murder and attempted murder (both for the bomb and the shootouts with cops). If you wanted to get really technical about it he could also be charged with weapons possession, reckless driving, vehicular homicide (for running his brother over), breaking and entering (the boat), etc.
 
2013-04-22 02:45:13 PM  

uncleacid: Who's going to pay for the guys boat?


His insurance company. That's why you buy insurance.
 
2013-04-22 02:45:37 PM  

ManRay: Yeah. The idea of a "special terrorism interrogator" getting to him before he is officially questioned bothers me. You can't put due process on hold.


That there is the kind of stuff people used to get mad about, back in the 'aughties.
 
2013-04-22 02:45:45 PM  

letrole: If you ever wonder why the motivations of the left are generally suspect in the minds of regular people in fly-over country, then have a look at this thread.

Correlation does not equal causation, I suppose, but it does seem that if you supported the dweebs in the failed Occupy-X movement, your are more likely to worry about the Miranda rights of bombers.


This is so idiotic is it to be a troll, but I'll bite...

I worry about Mirada rights of bombers, because if they can forgo Miranda rights of bombers, then they can forgo Miranda rights for me & you, because Miranda rights are something that applies BEFORE a person has been found guilty, so even though you might say "I'll never be a bomber", if the police are allowed to circumvent your constitutional rights, you just might end up as a convicted bomber, even though you're innocent.
 
2013-04-22 02:46:29 PM  

Great Janitor: Good, put him on trial, convict him, no plea bargain, and execute the son of a biatch.  Make the execute as soon as possible.  He doesn't deserve to live.


I dunno. He's kinda cute. I'd do him.
static2.businessinsider.com
Sentence him to life chained in my basement.
 
2013-04-22 02:46:36 PM  

jvl: I really don't see this as surprising. During the Bush admin, twice a terrorist was found on US soil and twice they were tried normally. I'm pretty sure the Supremes would be pissed if it went any other way.


The Supremes were so pissed about Jose Padilla that they chose not to hear the case on a technical issue.
 
2013-04-22 02:46:40 PM  

cretinbob: uncleacid: Who's going to pay for the guys boat?

His insurance company. That's why you buy insurance.


There's often an exclusion for damage caused by action taken by police or other civil authorities in an emergency.
 
2013-04-22 02:47:37 PM  

gilgigamesh: FarkedOver: Let's hope this is handled at the state level rather than the federal level.

What's wrong with handling it at the federal level?

I doubt MA has any laws against terrorism or murder by weapon of mass destruction that would be required to prosecute this effectively.


Well, they have laws against murder.  That's 3 people killed by bombs they set, and one police officer that they killed eluding pursuit.

Not to mention 100+ charges of attempted murder for all the people missing limbs after the bombs went off.

Carjacking charges too, as something else that happened in the crime spree.

They have enough state-level charges to make sure he never sees daylight again, without touching anything labelled "terrorism" or "weapon of mass destruction".  The "big gun" of going to Federal charges is that they can bring the death penalty to the table, since Massachusetts abolished it.
 
2013-04-22 02:48:44 PM  

Glendale: That honestly seems like very few charges and skips over a lot of other things they did.


It's enough, and there is enough evidence to make what he's been charged with stick, so why do all the paperwork for lesser charges. That costs moneythat doesn't exist because of the sequester.
 
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