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(CNN) NewsFlash American citizen to be tried as an American citizen. Sadly, in 2013, this warrants a news flash   (cnn.com) divider line 492
    More: NewsFlash, American citizens, Boston, Don Lemon, Americans, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, Tsarnaev, Boston area  
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11207 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Apr 2013 at 2:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2013-04-22 02:21:23 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: He's a citizen?  I thought I read that he had a green card, and was a legal immigrant, but not a US citizen.

Or is that just CNN/NYPost being derpy again?


That's the case for the dead brother. The living one became a naturalized citizen on... Sept. 11, 2012! Get Alex Jones on the phone! Wake up Sheeple!
 
2013-04-22 02:21:31 PM  
The point of the Justice System is to protect the public, not to extract revenge.
He is still accused and not convicted.
I understand this.  I agree with this.
However, it would save time and money if they granted him bail and released him at a memorial service for his victoms.

/especially if they announced it in advance and gave all victom's families one baseball bat each.
 
2013-04-22 02:21:31 PM  

DrWhy: Good.  terrorists need to be treated as the common criminals that they are.  Don't elevate them to some special kind of special super special enemy warrior status.  "Terror networks" should be treated as the criminal enterprises that are and prosecuted under RICO with the all the jail time and confiscation of personal assets that RICO allows.


Engrave the Miranda warning on the bullet jacket.

Treating them as criminals may be awkward in certain situations.  Like at a training camp in a failed state, for example, which would require a RCT for a successful rendition.
 
2013-04-22 02:21:31 PM  

TheHumanCannonball: skullkrusher: Shrugging Atlas: Charged with using a Weapon of Mass Destruction?

Fusion bomb?  WMD
Home made bomb in a pressure cooker?  Doesn't really seem like a WMD to me.

I think any bomb is considered a WMD. Not to be confused with the WMDs that Saddam moved to Syria

So you're saying some bombs aren't WMD except when it's convenient to call them so? Well, which is it?


I'm saying in the context of the Iraq justification, "WMD" referred to chem/bio/nukes but in terms of US criminal law, a WMD does not have to be bio/chem/nuke to qualify as a WMD although those certainly do qualify as well
 
2013-04-22 02:22:00 PM  

LessO2: Kid's only leverage is to give information about his brother in exchange to avoid the needle.


considering the damage done, i'd say that's unlikely.
 
2013-04-22 02:22:06 PM  

Nana's Vibrator: We can invade ourselves and implement regime change


Every four years, man.
 
2013-04-22 02:22:10 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: AFTER BEING INTERROGATED  BY THE CIA AND OTHER "INTERROGATION" EXPERTS.

Probably without legal counsel present.  And I'm sure they'll wait until he's off all medication, out of critical condition  and in reasonable health before they tortu...er, question him.


Just leave him to rot in the US prison system, and the fellow residents will torture him for us.

Hey, we're not a nation of torturers if we lock you in a facility where the other inmates are doing the torturing, am I right?

/just throwing that out there, we've been torturing people for a long, long time, for much lesser offenses.
//yes, this guy deserves punishment
 
2013-04-22 02:22:13 PM  

nekom: FlashHarry: plus, he'll likely get the DP if he's convicted on federal charges, yes?

I can think of two mitigating factors. 1. His age. He's old enough to execute, but young enough that a jury might consider that. 2. The fact that it seems he was heavily influenced by his brother. Every single other aspect of the case are aggravating factors, though. It may be possible to cop a plea for life if he talks.


I think it would be a bigger show compassion to not kill him.

To show that we Americans are not some blood thirsty savages who can only be satiated by the icy grip of death.
 
2013-04-22 02:22:16 PM  

ongbok: That is all he is going to get. I'm pretty sure he will plead out and give up any information he has in return for life.


That's assuming that he has other information to give.  If his brother was a lone-bomber type and he just helped, then he might literally have nothing else to tell the police beyond what they already know.

Personally, I don't mind the idea of him getting life in prison instead of the death penalty if he does help roll up other terrorists, here and/or abroad.  But he should die in prison.  If he's got nothing, well... sucks to be him, but he got a lot more years than the kid he set down his bomb next too.
 
2013-04-22 02:22:18 PM  
Seems reasonable to try him as a citizen, given lack of any large connection with overseas groups.
 
2013-04-22 02:22:18 PM  

ongbok: That is all he is going to get. I'm pretty sure he will plead out and give up any information he has in return for life.


Yeah, I'd bet money on it personally.  And at the age of 19, he'll probably wish he got the death penalty since he's facing god knows how many decades in a Federal super max prison in solitary.
 
2013-04-22 02:22:21 PM  

Glendale: That honestly seems like very few charges and skips over a lot of other things they did.


That's so the state has some charges to levy just in case the Fed case tanks. SOP. It's how they got the Rodney King cops into the courtroom twice for the same offense.
 
2013-04-22 02:22:30 PM  

gilgigamesh: People get tried on federal charges all the time. Mail fraud, wire fraud, bank robbery, drug importation, RICO... its pretty commonplace. I don't see why its a problem here.


Massachusetts is state that doesn't have the death penalty.  If he is charged federally he will face the death penalty.  I'd rather him not be executed.
 
2013-04-22 02:22:33 PM  

Kibbler: A dozen rightwing pundits and countless rightwing bloggers just fell to their knees and thanked the Lord, for now they have something to rage about for the next five years.


Wonderful.

They're gonna RAGE about lawful Constitutional legal procedure being correctly upheld.

This is a police matter, not war.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-04-22 02:22:40 PM  

slayer199: He should be tried as an American citizen.

Of course, his defense will blame it on his older brother in an effort to get a reduction.


What?  From multiple death sentiences to just one?
 
2013-04-22 02:22:41 PM  

FarkedOver: skullkrusher: FarkedOver: skullkrusher: FarkedOver: Let's hope this is handled at the state level rather than the federal level.

There is quite literally zero chance of that happening.

Sadly, that's a fact.  I'm sure he is being charged with some P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act crap, which is why I'd rather let MA handle this.

He's probably gonna be charged as a mass murdering terrorist because he's a farking mass murdering terrorist.

Not saying he isn't a terrorist.  I just don't want him executed for his crimes.  I want him incarcerated.


I agree. I am not fond of capital punishment for several reasons. However, if he gets poked with Old Stabby, I'm not gonna lose much sleep.
 
2013-04-22 02:23:25 PM  
CNN? Really?
 
2013-04-22 02:23:38 PM  

FlashHarry: LessO2: Kid's only leverage is to give information about his brother in exchange to avoid the needle.

considering the damage done, i'd say that's unlikely.


I'd say it's very likely.  The G has little idea where his brother got his training and his background, I'm sure they will want to know.
 
2013-04-22 02:23:41 PM  
Other WMD
gdb.rferl.org
 
2013-04-22 02:23:42 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: ManateeGag: TheShavingofOccam123: AFTER BEING INTERROGATED  BY THE CIA AND OTHER "INTERROGATION" EXPERTS.

Probably without legal counsel present.  And I'm sure they'll wait until he's off all medication, out of critical condition  and in reasonable health before they tortu...er, question him.

are you retarded?

Investigators are going into Tsarnaev's room every few hours to ask questions in the presence of doctors, the source said.

Ill-informed, opinionated and yes, retarded. Yes, I am.

/smack dab in the middle of that Fark.com bell curve


and you know, for sure, he hasn't been read his rights?  hasn't waived his right to a lawyer?
 
2013-04-22 02:23:44 PM  
If ever there was a time to use teh Patriot act, now would seem to be it.
 
2013-04-22 02:23:48 PM  

FlashHarry: plus, he'll likely get the DP if he's convicted on federal charges, yes?


i read yesterday that MA doens't have the death penalty, so only if the feds move on him will that be in play, which as shown in this trhead, goes to federal criminal statutes on WMD.  i haven't looked but i'm sure there are some broad "domestic terror" laws that probably merit federal prosecution and invoke death.  but if MA exclusively prosecutes, death is not in play.
 
2013-04-22 02:23:49 PM  

Glendale: That honestly seems like very few charges and skips over a lot of other things they did.


Not sure, but maybe these are the only two charges the federal government has jurisdiction over, and the reckless endangerment, carjacking, gunfights with cops, trespassing, etc. can still also be charged at the state level?
 
2013-04-22 02:24:00 PM  
The weirdest thing about all this is the definition of WMD. The Iraq War made it sound like it's limited to nukes, bio/chem weapons -- the kind of things that can kill millions in a single attack.  Not a pot with some gunpowder and nails in it.

Now we need a new word for the things that can kill more people than conventional weapons.
 
2013-04-22 02:24:05 PM  

skullkrusher: FarkedOver: skullkrusher: FarkedOver: skullkrusher: FarkedOver: Let's hope this is handled at the state level rather than the federal level.

There is quite literally zero chance of that happening.

Sadly, that's a fact.  I'm sure he is being charged with some P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act crap, which is why I'd rather let MA handle this.

He's probably gonna be charged as a mass murdering terrorist because he's a farking mass murdering terrorist.

Not saying he isn't a terrorist.  I just don't want him executed for his crimes.  I want him incarcerated.

I agree. I am not fond of capital punishment for several reasons. However, if he gets poked with Old Stabby, I'm not gonna lose much sleep.


I'd rather him rot with that pathetic attempt of a suicide hole in his neck for the rest of his crap life.
 
2013-04-22 02:24:17 PM  

thebigfarker: The point of the Justice System is to protect the public, not to extract revenge.
He is still accused and not convicted.
I understand this.  I agree with this.
However, it would save time and money if they granted him bail and released him at a memorial service for his victoms.

/especially if they announced it in advance and gave all victom's families one baseball bat each.


Hammer
Chain Saw

** Katana **
 
2013-04-22 02:24:19 PM  
Sadly, in 2013, some people elected officials who have taken oaths to protect and serve have a problem with an American citizen being treated like an American citizen.
 
2013-04-22 02:24:36 PM  
I'm not sure I agree with that description.  One does not have to be a "citizen" in the US to be tried in accordance with US law and to be entitled to due process rights.  In any case, I am relieved by this decision.  Our civilian court system can handle cases like this.
 
2013-04-22 02:24:39 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: AFTER BEING INTERROGATED  BY THE CIA AND OTHER "INTERROGATION" EXPERTS.

Probably without legal counsel present.  And I'm sure they'll wait until he's off all medication, out of critical condition  and in reasonable health before they tortu...er, question him.


There is no legal requirement to question with legal counsel present. That's only if you want to use the evidence in court. I think they decided the video of him dropping the bag and having that bag explode probably means they don't need his testimony.
 
2013-04-22 02:24:48 PM  
Since he is heavily sedated, cant his defense use that  as any statement made by him can be tossed out since he wasnt all the way there when read is rights?
 
2013-04-22 02:25:06 PM  
I'll just leave this here.........

Xyphoid:

Pretty disturbing reading how many people want him tortured and/or extrajudicially punished, or just plain wishing suffering upon him.

My opinion, as an American, is I want him afforded every right I'd expect myself as an American. Those rights and the treatment we espouse to be sacred are a significant portion of what makes our country better than many others. As well, my country claims to stand against, and has hung people for, torture/"enhanced interrogation"/increasing suffering (even through inaction). In that regard I also believe any intentional suffering caused upon someone in custody is a crime that should be punished, as is the opinion of the legal system* (*- sadly, your mileage may vary).

My opinion in regard to my faith and as a human being is that no unnecessary suffering (excluding any pain due to life-saving or life-maintaining actions) should come to him, even though I believe he likely did it (to the effect I'd have to sit out of a jury). I also believe that he shouldn't be sentenced to death unless his continued existence, no matter what actions we could possibly undertake, would still pose a threat to innocent life.

Some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Whatever this persons motivations were, you wishing those kinds of things upon him, suggesting you'd be ambivalent to them happening, or wishing you could do it yourself makes you the same kind of person you believe this fellow to be. You don't think terrorists have their own justification, like you, for thinking their actions (or willingness to cause suffering) as right?

/Two Iraq deployments for a year and a half
//Despite being shot at, fellow soldiers injured and killed, poisoned, threatened, insulted and knowing that if I was captured that terrible things would be done to me, 100% of any prisoners or suspects I had control of were treated like human beings. Not just because of my beliefs, but that's how decent and civilized human beings roll.
///So yeah, I can practice what I preach, even in the shiat.
 
2013-04-22 02:25:14 PM  

NostroZ:
I think it would be a bigger show compassion to not kill him.

To show that we Americans are not some blood thirsty savages who can only be satiated by the icy grip of death.


Personally, I agree. I oppose the death penalty in all cases for a variety of reasons. I do, however, understand the other side of that debate, especially when it comes to mass murder and other especially heinous crimes. I'll feel just as safe if they merely house him in a cage for the rest of his life. I live near a maximum security state prison, I took the tour when they opened it, escape is for Hollywood movies, not for reality. He ain't going nowhere.
 
2013-04-22 02:25:16 PM  
Who's going to pay for the guys boat?
 
2013-04-22 02:25:43 PM  

rickythepenguin: FlashHarry: plus, he'll likely get the DP if he's convicted on federal charges, yes?

i read yesterday that MA doens't have the death penalty, so only if the feds move on him will that be in play, which as shown in this trhead, goes to federal criminal statutes on WMD.  i haven't looked but i'm sure there are some broad "domestic terror" laws that probably merit federal prosecution and invoke death.  but if MA exclusively prosecutes, death is not in play.


i think he's being tried by the feds and will be eligible for the DP.

/anti-DP
 
2013-04-22 02:25:47 PM  

rickythepenguin: FlashHarry: plus, he'll likely get the DP if he's convicted on federal charges, yes?

i read yesterday that MA doens't have the death penalty, so only if the feds move on him will that be in play, which as shown in this trhead, goes to federal criminal statutes on WMD.  i haven't looked but i'm sure there are some broad "domestic terror" laws that probably merit federal prosecution and invoke death.  but if MA exclusively prosecutes, death is not in play.


They could do a Dahmer on him. Wisconsin doesn't have capital punishment, so the prison guards just exposed Dahmer to the general population for a short while... wouldn't take more than 2 minutes for this kid to get his neck broken.

/not advocating, just saying it happens
 
2013-04-22 02:25:48 PM  
s17.postimg.org
 
2013-04-22 02:25:50 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: I thought people speculated more that it was some horrifying version of patriotism rather than religious fanaticism.


yeah, I was kinda using "Jeebus" as a stand-in for Teabagger motivations

HotWingConspiracy: Either way, treating them as criminals makes more sense than treating them as some sort of organized armed force.


I agree though the line is a bit blurrier for McVeighs and The Brothers Karamazav than it is for Adam Lanzas
 
2013-04-22 02:25:54 PM  

ColSanders: Shrugging Atlas: Home made bomb in a pressure cooker?  Doesn't really seem like a WMD to me.

It's more than Saddam had, and we went to war over it.


Nice.
 
2013-04-22 02:26:09 PM  

Galloping Galoshes: Shrugging Atlas: A potato gun is a weapon of mass destruction, if "designed for use as a weapon" and used against a U.S. national.

I have an Attorney General-approved potato gun.  Max magazine capacity of 7 potatoes, no folding stock, forehand grip, or bayonet mount.


Before today I had never considered mounting a bayonet on a spud gun.

Molon Labe, Idaho!
 
2013-04-22 02:26:15 PM  

FlashHarry: BlueGreenSwirly: Good point, subby. As an Islamic terrorist, he should be declared an enemy combatant.

as a christian terrorist, should eric rudolph have been declared an enemy combatant?


Sure. Why not? He was attempting in his own pathetic way to circumvent the rule of the American government and intimidate the public into establishing a Christian theocracy. It's basically a form of sedition any time you use a non-democratic method to try to overrule the government in a democracy.
 
2013-04-22 02:26:20 PM  
Anyone venture over to FreeRepublic for their reaction?  I can't visit that website anymore. It frightens me and I have to be sedated when I close the page.
 
2013-04-22 02:26:26 PM  
TheShavingofOccam123

Probably without legal counsel present. And I'm sure they'll wait until he's off all medication, out of critical condition and in reasonable health before they tortu...er, question him.

They forced medication to Loughner so he would be mentally "competent" to face trial.

I don't want to see him die, then his journey would be complete. Stick him in a dark rapey corner and forget about him.
 
2013-04-22 02:26:26 PM  

NostroZ: nekom: FlashHarry: plus, he'll likely get the DP if he's convicted on federal charges, yes?

I can think of two mitigating factors. 1. His age. He's old enough to execute, but young enough that a jury might consider that. 2. The fact that it seems he was heavily influenced by his brother. Every single other aspect of the case are aggravating factors, though. It may be possible to cop a plea for life if he talks.

I think it would be a bigger show compassion to not kill him.

To show that we Americans are not some blood thirsty savages who can only be satiated by the icy grip of death.


So... burn him!?!
 
2013-04-22 02:26:30 PM  

Vodka Zombie: What the hell else would you try an American citizen as?


Since he is a naturalized citizen, his citizenship could be revoked, but have any captured 'enemy combatants' been executed?
 
2013-04-22 02:26:46 PM  

NostroZ: I think it would be a bigger show compassion to not kill him.

To show that we Americans are not some blood thirsty savages who can only be satiated by the icy grip of death.


You might be showing yourself (and the rest of the 1st world countries) that, but your enemies see only weakness.  You don't even have the stones to execute a murderer of children.  They will respect you even less than they already do.  Of course, if you do kill him, you make a martyr out of him.
 
2013-04-22 02:26:55 PM  

slayer199: Of course, his defense will blame it on his older brother in an effort to get a reduction.


And, what if that is exactly what happened?  Do we ignore that just to feel better?

The fact that you (and so many others) are willing to abandon what could be the truth just to exact some vengeance is one of greatest things wrong with this country.
 
2013-04-22 02:26:57 PM  

Joe Blowme: If ever there was a time to use teh Patriot act, now would seem to be it.


Wrong! Now is the time to show we DON'T USE the Patriot act against every deranged US Citizen.
 
2013-04-22 02:27:32 PM  

ManRay: TheShavingofOccam123: AFTER BEING INTERROGATED  BY THE CIA AND OTHER "INTERROGATION" EXPERTS.

Probably without legal counsel present.  And I'm sure they'll wait until he's off all medication, out of critical condition  and in reasonable health before they tortu...er, question him.

Yeah. The idea of a "special terrorism interrogator" getting to him before he is officially questioned bothers me. You can't put due process on hold.


If they're using that questioning to potentially track down others but not use it during the trial, what's the problem?


slayer199: He should be tried as an American citizen.

Of course, his defense will blame it on his older brother in an effort to get a reduction.


Just because everyone's pissed off right now doesn't mean it isn't true. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this kid didn't truly understand what was going on. Of course he should be held accountable, but we shouldn't pile his brother's punishment onto him just because the brother is dead.

As for the brother; if the reports of him being interested in joining an extremist group and/or going overseas for training are true, it wouldn't surprise me if this was some sort of initiation or proof that he's not a cop. Ultimately, though, it's probably going to come down to a case the petulant soul who's mad at the world for some perceived slight.


AngryJailhouseFistfark: But what if he's a Sovereign Citizen, not subject to the Crown or some phoney-baloney Imperial Navy of the British Colonies laws? He should be free to not pay taxes and do as he pleases without Federal harassment, seems to me.


Those claims always struck me as a great opportunity to say, "OK, fine, Sovereign Citizen. You are not subject to our laws, nor will you be protected by them. We're going to let you go, and if someone guns your ass down the second you reach the sidewalk, so be it."
 
2013-04-22 02:27:40 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: He's a citizen?  I thought I read that he had a green card, and was a legal immigrant, but not a US citizen.

Or is that just CNN/NYPost being derpy again?


That was his brother. The younger one got naturalized last year -- on September 11, as it happens.

TheShavingofOccam123: AFTER BEING INTERROGATED  BY THE CIA AND OTHER "INTERROGATION" EXPERTS.

Probably without legal counsel present.  And I'm sure they'll wait until he's off all medication, out of critical condition  and in reasonable health before they tortu...er, question him.


If I understand correctly, the questioning before he's Mirandized can't be used against him in court. They apparently are more interested in getting answers than gaining evidence -- probably because they've got plenty of that already.

I wonder if that could backfire. For example, Oliver North's convictions were thrown out because witnesses were affected by his immunized testimony. There's so much press on this, any potential jurors will know what he said, and probably find it hard to ignore.

Damn, can you imagine if he walked on this? Eh, probably impossible.
 
2013-04-22 02:27:49 PM  

FarkedOver: gilgigamesh: People get tried on federal charges all the time. Mail fraud, wire fraud, bank robbery, drug importation, RICO... its pretty commonplace. I don't see why its a problem here.

Massachusetts is state that doesn't have the death penalty.  If he is charged federally he will face the death penalty.  I'd rather him not be executed.


Oh yes. There is that, and I agree with you.

I was thinking you had a problem with the federal system itself versus state.

Yeah, I'd rather he didn't get executed as well.
 
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