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(Tech Crunch)   Our long national nightmare may be over: Microsoft rumored to bring back the Start button   (techcrunch.com) divider line 97
    More: PSA, Start Button, Microsoft, Windows  
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Archived thread
 
2013-04-22 01:49:34 PM
The only way M$ can save itself is to release Windows7 and call it Windows9, and Ballmer has to commit seppuku for the abortion that is Windows8.
 
2013-04-22 01:54:22 PM
Man, tech news profilerates so slowly on Fark.

/Heard this last week.
 
2013-04-22 02:10:36 PM
\Ballmer has to commit seppuku for the abortion that is Windows8.

Make that a pay-per-view event and MS will bring in billions.
 
2013-04-22 02:13:58 PM

NightOwl2255: The only way M$ can save itself is to release Windows7 and call it Windows9, and Ballmer has to commit seppuku for the abortion that is Windows8.


"Abortion"? Really? Really.
 
2013-04-22 02:14:33 PM
I know a few IT Managers and CIOs that just got their environments updated to Windows 7.   When I asked them about Windows 8, they laughed.  They wouldn't implement it because of the retraining costs.

Here's where it gets interesting.  2 of the 5 guys I know in a position to make those decisions told me that they'd seriously look at Desktop Linux if Microsoft didn't revert to the Start Menu and Desktop.  Why?  Because if they have to spend the money to retrain, why not spend it on something that is significantly less expensive than Microsoft's products.

Now I'm not sure if they actually would move to a version of desktop linux, but you have to believe that a few of them threw that at their Microsoft reps as a threat.
 
2013-04-22 02:15:29 PM

slayer199: I know a few IT Managers and CIOs that just got their environments updated to Windows 7.   When I asked them about Windows 8, they laughed.  They wouldn't implement it because of the retraining costs.

Here's where it gets interesting.  2 of the 5 guys I know in a position to make those decisions told me that they'd seriously look at Desktop Linux if Microsoft didn't revert to the Start Menu and Desktop.  Why?  Because if they have to spend the money to retrain, why not spend it on something that is significantly less expensive than Microsoft's products.

Now I'm not sure if they actually would move to a version of desktop linux, but you have to believe that a few of them threw that at their Microsoft reps as a threat.


Our department implemented it with... zero retraining. None was needed.
 
2013-04-22 02:16:44 PM
daily-grind.net

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?
 
2013-04-22 02:17:46 PM
I almost never use the start menu on windows 7. My most clicked on items are pinned to my task bar, in my rainmeter quick launch or open when I double click on the correct file type. The only time I bother to use the start button is when I need to search for a specific file I have lost track of.  I don't often lose my files though i'm somewhat obsessive about keeping my PC organized.
 
2013-04-22 02:19:03 PM

dehehn: [daily-grind.net image 500x375]

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?


All the time. It's been there how many years? Maybe you just suck.
 
2013-04-22 02:19:16 PM
I'm running an eval of Windows 8 on a desktop now.  Can't say I'm a huge fan.  But unless I have a super special just for me copy, you can still get your old desktop with the Start button.

My biggest complaint is that I can't update the chipset drivers and BIOS with it.  And it is hence very, VERY crashy with even slightly old hardware.
 
2013-04-22 02:22:45 PM

dehehn: [daily-grind.net image 500x375]

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?


I use it all the time, especially when it comes to launching programs.  Just tap the button, start type 'Word', or whatever, and hit Enter.
 
2013-04-22 02:23:40 PM

LasersHurt: Our department implemented it with... zero retraining. None was needed.


The depends what type of organization you are.  Upgrading 130k desktops/laptops is one thing.  Upgrading 5 is quite another.  And Windows 7 is the first OS Microsoft has kicked since XP that is stable and offers something for corporations.  Windows 8 offers nothing but some incremental improvements and an interface that frankly sucks.
 
2013-04-22 02:25:14 PM
I'm holding my breath until they bring on the Any key.
 
2013-04-22 02:26:35 PM
grumpycat.jpg
 
2013-04-22 02:26:42 PM

dehehn: [daily-grind.net image 500x375]

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?


"Windows Key"-D will minimize all windows and take you back to the desktop

"Windows Key"-L will lock your screen

I'm sure there are others and those are easily mapped to other key combos, but I use those two on a regular basis
 
2013-04-22 02:27:06 PM

gingerjet: LasersHurt: Our department implemented it with... zero retraining. None was needed.

The depends what type of organization you are.  Upgrading 130k desktops/laptops is one thing.  Upgrading 5 is quite another.  And Windows 7 is the first OS Microsoft has kicked since XP that is stable and offers something for corporations.  Windows 8 offers nothing but some incremental improvements and an interface that frankly sucks.


I like Win 8 and have no problems with it, but if you have a large number of units on Win 7, and everything's going well, I probably wouldn't bother going to 8. I think it's fine, but for whatever reason the Metro UI confuses and terrifies and angers people, even though it can be largely ignored. I don't think it's going away, but it's still best to wait it out.

And who knows, this next "Blue" update might take care of a lot of the worries.
 
2013-04-22 02:27:41 PM
The start button merely hides the more blatant UI disaster that is the interface formerly known as MetroUI.

Are they killing the rest of tifka MetroUI?  Because it is everywhere you interact with the OS.  Click one thing that isn't directly tied to something written by someone who hasn't drunk the win8 cool aid and suddenly your entire desktop disappears and is replaced with only enough information to fit on every smartphone (as if you can call a winphone "smart").

Putting a start button is only the first of many steps needed to bury Metro.  They are likely going to have plenty of time as Google supposedly has different advertising schemes for the desktop and android, and really has no interest on putting android on the desktop.

/"upgraded" from xp when told the $40 offer was transferable (unlike OEM licenses)
// like the shadows of DX10&11.
/// will stay with Linux (for non-gaming).  Wine isn't ready for gaming, windows still isn't ready for the internet.
 
2013-04-22 02:28:01 PM

dehehn: [daily-grind.net image 500x375]

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?


If you use shortcut keys then that is one of the most used shortcut keys in windows.  One example would be windows key + 1, which would open the 1st program on your taskbar.  I try not to touch a mouse unless necessary so Windows 8 wasn't much of a change for me personally.
 
2013-04-22 02:28:07 PM

LasersHurt: NightOwl2255: The only way M$ can save itself is to release Windows7 and call it Windows9, and Ballmer has to commit seppuku for the abortion that is Windows8.

"Abortion"? Really? Really.


Really.
 
2013-04-22 02:28:53 PM

NeoCortex42: dehehn: [daily-grind.net image 500x375]

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?

I use it all the time, especially when it comes to launching programs.  Just tap the button, start type 'Word', or whatever, and hit Enter.


The only thing I really use it for is to open 'computer' or go to desktop (win+e or win+d).  Sometimes I'll use win+m for a boss key.
 
2013-04-22 02:29:03 PM

kimwim: I'm holding my breath until they bring on the Any key.


3.bp.blogspot.com

I see "Pig Up" and "Ka-tarl" ....
 
2013-04-22 02:32:16 PM
Start button really isn't that big a deal for me. But if they ditch the touchscreen interface, and give me some compelling reason to switch other than "It loads faster", and I'll....consider it.
 
2013-04-22 02:33:10 PM

RexTalionis: Man, tech news profilerates so slowly on Fark.

/Heard this last week.


I also read of this rumour last week.
 
2013-04-22 02:33:20 PM
In the popular imagination, Microsoft seems to be flailing. In reality, I'd wager they're right on track, compromises and all.

If the track they want to be on is the one that continues to put Windows 8 adoption rates lagging well behind Vista....

gingerjet: Windows 8 offers nothing but some incremental improvements and an interface that frankly sucks.


Windows 8 in combination with Windows Server 2012 offers a few corporate goodies, particularly through Group Policy improvements, but, yea.... it's not nearly enough to offset the completely pointless touch-based interface you're forced to hand out to a group of people who spend 99% of their workday at a keyboard.

We're in the process of migrating to Server 2012 in the datacenter, but Windows 8 has been completely written off. And if a proper desktop UI doesn't make it into the next major release, I can honestly see us pushing out a combination BYOD/thin client policy instead of refreshing PCs next time around. There's no way I'm refreshing people into the Metro disaster.
 
2013-04-22 02:35:45 PM

skozlaw: In the popular imagination, Microsoft seems to be flailing. In reality, I'd wager they're right on track, compromises and all.

If the track they want to be on is the one that continues to put Windows 8 adoption rates lagging well behind Vista....


Begs the question - Poor sales because it's bad, bad because of poor sales, round and round we reason.
 
2013-04-22 02:35:46 PM
I read that initially as Windows 3.1 and had a serious flashback, man...
 
2013-04-22 02:36:42 PM

dehehn: [daily-grind.net image 500x375]

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?


Win-L to lock my computer.  I use it all the time when I step away from my desk.
 
2013-04-22 02:36:50 PM
I wish everyone would quit the biatching and just install Classic Shell...

Personally, my Windows 8 machine works great ...just ignore the "Duplo Blocks" interface and your fine.
 
2013-04-22 02:37:55 PM

LasersHurt: [Metro] can be largely ignored


If your users don't need to do much with their computer and you put all their shortcuts on the desktop and teach them a bunch of keyboard shortcuts and everybody who works on the computer uses the run dialog to launch everything else....

Generally when I think of a quality interface the most compelling argument in its favor that leaps to mind isn't "it can be largely ignored".
 
2013-04-22 02:38:22 PM

dehehn: [daily-grind.net image 500x375]

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?


static.ddmcdn.com
If it means that much to you you can remove the key.

/or just disable the windows key functionality in windows.
//or just learn not to club your keyboard like a caveman while playing games.
 
2013-04-22 02:39:41 PM
Window Key + X is by far the best new shortcut in Windows 8.
 
2013-04-22 02:41:01 PM

skozlaw: LasersHurt: [Metro] can be largely ignored

If your users don't need to do much with their computer and you put all their shortcuts on the desktop and teach them a bunch of keyboard shortcuts and everybody who works on the computer uses the run dialog to launch everything else....

Generally when I think of a quality interface the most compelling argument in its favor that leaps to mind isn't "it can be largely ignored".


Generally I don't think of myself as "not doing much" with my system, either. And don't be obtuse, nobody is saying that's the "most compelling argument in it's favor."
 
2013-04-22 02:41:06 PM

LasersHurt: Begs the question - Poor sales because it's bad, bad because of poor sales, round and round we reason.


Who said it was bad because it was selling poorly? Before you, I mean.
 
2013-04-22 02:42:22 PM
Good, pressing the Windows Key is sooooooo hard.

Seriously...the only time I use the "Start" button on the older OS's is when a ps/2 keyboard is trashed so I used the mouse navigate to the shutdown option, otherwise I only use the Windows key to bring up the Start Menu.
/guess that's why I don't get the Win8 outrage.
 
2013-04-22 02:43:06 PM

LasersHurt: And don't be obtuse, nobody is saying that's the "most compelling argument in it's favor."


Fine, the last time we had this argument you challenged me to lay out explicit examples of problems it actually caused me through the process of actually using it and I did. Seven, IIRC. Maybe six, I can't remember exactly.

So instead of just your usual generic Microsoft whoring, why don't you try and explain to those of us who don't care for it what you think we're missing that you're seeing?
 
2013-04-22 02:43:13 PM

skozlaw: LasersHurt: Begs the question - Poor sales because it's bad, bad because of poor sales, round and round we reason.

Who said it was bad because it was selling poorly? Before you, I mean.


You? It's a major feature in every argument you've made against it on Fark. You're always telling me how it's a failure because of low sales.
 
2013-04-22 02:43:29 PM
Any "get off my lawn" Farkers using a mod to keep the Windows 3.1 Program Manager alive on Windows 7?
 
2013-04-22 02:44:26 PM

skozlaw: LasersHurt: [Metro] can be largely ignored

If your users don't need to do much with their computer and you put all their shortcuts on the desktop and teach them a bunch of keyboard shortcuts and everybody who works on the computer uses the run dialog to launch everything else....

Generally when I think of a quality interface the most compelling argument in its favor that leaps to mind isn't "it can be largely ignored".


Is there something wrong with clicking the bottom left corner and then selecting the program you want to open from the start screen?
 
2013-04-22 02:45:24 PM

skozlaw: LasersHurt: And don't be obtuse, nobody is saying that's the "most compelling argument in it's favor."

Fine, the last time we had this argument you challenged me to lay out explicit examples of problems it actually caused me through the process of actually using it and I did. Seven, IIRC. Maybe six, I can't remember exactly.

So instead of just your usual generic Microsoft whoring, why don't you try and explain to those of us who don't care for it what you think we're missing that you're seeing?


I'm not going to bother. If you recall, last time I THANKed you for actually answering the question with specifics.

I don't care if you don't like the OS. I care that you're an asshole about it, and I care that most of your arguments against it are hollow and trite, and that you need to show up in EVERY single MS thread to talk about how it's a miserable failure of an OS.
 
2013-04-22 02:45:27 PM

LasersHurt: gingerjet: LasersHurt: Our department implemented it with... zero retraining. None was needed.

The depends what type of organization you are.  Upgrading 130k desktops/laptops is one thing.  Upgrading 5 is quite another.  And Windows 7 is the first OS Microsoft has kicked since XP that is stable and offers something for corporations.  Windows 8 offers nothing but some incremental improvements and an interface that frankly sucks.

I like Win 8 and have no problems with it, but if you have a large number of units on Win 7, and everything's going well, I probably wouldn't bother going to 8. I think it's fine, but for whatever reason the Metro UI confuses and terrifies and angers people, even though it can be largely ignored. I don't think it's going away, but it's still best to wait it out.

And who knows, this next "Blue" update might take care of a lot of the worries.


can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?
 
2013-04-22 02:46:46 PM

dehehn: [daily-grind.net image 500x375]

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?


Given that  ALL MODERN GAMES detect and properly map the key (ie: don't kill your fullscreen game), I'm just going to call this one a troll or an old fogey who hasn't played a game on the PC in over 10 years.
 
2013-04-22 02:46:59 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?


Do you know anything at all about Windows 8, other than that the Metro interface exists?

I use my desktop with 3 monitors with Windows 8 all-day, every day. It is nothing like a tablet, at all.
 
2013-04-22 02:51:52 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?


Wow would want to do something like that?
 
2013-04-22 02:53:43 PM

LasersHurt: HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?

Do you know anything at all about Windows 8, other than that the Metro interface exists?

I use my desktop with 3 monitors with Windows 8 all-day, every day. It is nothing like a tablet, at all.


If the UI is not functional for me, it doesn't matter what is under the hood... that would be like saying: This car has all these whizbang features, BUT... the steering wheel is on the passenger side, and the gas and brake are on the driver side, and the dashboard controls are in the back seat.

It may not be under the hood, but the UI is.
 
2013-04-22 02:54:51 PM

Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?

Wow would want to do something like that?


did you mean to say "why"?

if so: I wouldn't
if not: I don't understand the question.
 
2013-04-22 02:55:28 PM

Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?

Wow would want to do something like that?


Who?
 
2013-04-22 02:56:53 PM

Donnchadha: "Windows Key"-D will minimize all windows and take you back to the desktop


To be that guy, Windows+D just shows the desktop - it doesn't minimize all windows. Slight difference.

Windows + M minimizes all windows.

The key difference is the behaviour of modal dialogs.
 
2013-04-22 02:56:53 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: LasersHurt: HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?

Do you know anything at all about Windows 8, other than that the Metro interface exists?

I use my desktop with 3 monitors with Windows 8 all-day, every day. It is nothing like a tablet, at all.

If the UI is not functional for me, it doesn't matter what is under the hood... that would be like saying: This car has all these whizbang features, BUT... the steering wheel is on the passenger side, and the gas and brake are on the driver side, and the dashboard controls are in the back seat.

It may not be under the hood, but the UI is.


I have no idea what you are saying. The OS transforms it into a tablet? Whether I know it or not? Oh my god, have I been stealth tableted?

All of this work I've been doing, it's all a lie? These last few months are a sham of a mockery of a flim-flam of 2 shams.

/I really don't understand your meaning, snark aside. What are you asking me to defend? I have no loss of function on my computer.
 
2013-04-22 02:57:07 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?

Wow would want to do something like that?

did you mean to say "why"?

if so: I wouldn't
if not: I don't understand the question.


I am assuming you are referring to what you think upgrading to Windows 8 might be like.
 
2013-04-22 02:57:16 PM

Wholesale Ass: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?

Wow would want to do something like that?

Who?


ok, that makes sense too... and no, I cannot think of anyone who would... other than LasersHurt apparently, which would explain the poor sales.
 
2013-04-22 03:00:26 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?

Wow would want to do something like that?

Who?

ok, that makes sense too... and no, I cannot think of anyone who would... other than LasersHurt apparently, which would explain the poor sales.


Well, I upgraded to Windows 8 on a PC and it is not like a tablet at all.
 
2013-04-22 03:02:34 PM

LasersHurt: HindiDiscoMonster: LasersHurt: HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?

Do you know anything at all about Windows 8, other than that the Metro interface exists?

I use my desktop with 3 monitors with Windows 8 all-day, every day. It is nothing like a tablet, at all.

If the UI is not functional for me, it doesn't matter what is under the hood... that would be like saying: This car has all these whizbang features, BUT... the steering wheel is on the passenger side, and the gas and brake are on the driver side, and the dashboard controls are in the back seat.

It may not be under the hood, but the UI is.

I have no idea what you are saying. The OS transforms it into a tablet? Whether I know it or not? Oh my god, have I been stealth tableted?

All of this work I've been doing, it's all a lie? These last few months are a sham of a mockery of a flim-flam of 2 shams.

/I really don't understand your meaning, snark aside. What are you asking me to defend? I have no loss of function on my computer.


You are either intentionally obtuse or have never owned a tablet PC/Nook/Kindle/[insert-device-here].
either way, I never asked you to defend anything. if you recall, I asked you what would be just ONE logical argument of why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet computer. This is what the Windows 8 UI is all about... limited touchscreen interface not allowing the user the freedom afforded in a standard desktop environment - you know, exactly like a tablet.

so, willfully obtuse, or just dumb?
 
2013-04-22 03:03:18 PM

Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: can you provide one logical argument as to why I would want to turn my PC into a tablet?

Wow would want to do something like that?

Who?

ok, that makes sense too... and no, I cannot think of anyone who would... other than LasersHurt apparently, which would explain the poor sales.

Well, I upgraded to Windows 8 on a PC and it is not like a tablet at all.


the UI is.
 
2013-04-22 03:03:50 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: so, willfully obtuse, or just dumb?


You? You seem really earnest, so I have to go with Dumb.

/I literally make a living with tablets, you dink, and I also can use Windows 8 so I know it's not a tablet.
 
2013-04-22 03:03:52 PM

LasersHurt: I'm not going to bother [explaining the positive aspects].


Surprise, surprise. I give you a link to a usability study by a long-standing expert in the field.... you just dismiss it like he's nobody. I give you a series of real-world examples where it bogged me or my co-workers down after you ask for it.... you just ignore it. I ask you to explain to the rest of us why you like it, you refuse.

I have no idea why you choose to spend so much time defending Microsoft on this particular subject, but the least you could do is a good job of it if you're going to bother.
 
2013-04-22 03:05:41 PM

LasersHurt: HindiDiscoMonster: so, willfully obtuse, or just dumb?

You? You seem really earnest, so I have to go with Dumb.

/I literally make a living with tablets, you dink, and I also can use Windows 8 so I know it's not a tablet.


ok, so troll then... adios troll.
 
2013-04-22 03:05:48 PM

RexTalionis: Man, tech news profilerates so slowly on Fark.

/Heard this last week.


I heard it on fark a week ago... The mods like green lighting duplicate stories...
 
2013-04-22 03:06:21 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: the UI is.


The start screen? Then menu I go to that keeps all the programs I use?
 
2013-04-22 03:07:10 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: This is what the Windows 8 UI is all about... limited touchscreen interface not allowing the user the freedom afforded in a standard desktop environment - you know, exactly like a tablet.


The best part is that the whole point of Windows 8 + Surface was the idea that you would have a unified experience across devices with no loss of functionality... but the reality is that it's a mediocre interface on the tablet and a terrible one on the desktop.

What Microsoft envisioned was great.

What Microsoft delivered was crap on a cracker.

As someone who manages a Windows datacenter, I'm still hoping that they work it out, but this whole Apple-esque "STFU and like what I tell you to like" attitude doesn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies about the future of the OS.
 
2013-04-22 03:07:20 PM

skozlaw: LasersHurt: I'm not going to bother [explaining the positive aspects].

Surprise, surprise. I give you a link to a usability study by a long-standing expert in the field.... you just dismiss it like he's nobody. I give you a series of real-world examples where it bogged me or my co-workers down after you ask for it.... you just ignore it. I ask you to explain to the rest of us why you like it, you refuse.

I have no idea why you choose to spend so much time defending Microsoft on this particular subject, but the least you could do is a good job of it if you're going to bother.


Says the man who spends yet more time attacking them.

I'm not going to bother because you don't care. There is no REASON to explain what's good about Windows 8. There are a million reviews, articles, and resources that can tell you what's really good about the OS, but you wouldn't read them, and if you did you'd dismiss the good and only remember the bad.

This is the information age, man, go find out for yourself why a lot of people like the OS. There are plenty of articles.
 
2013-04-22 03:07:58 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: LasersHurt: HindiDiscoMonster: so, willfully obtuse, or just dumb?

You? You seem really earnest, so I have to go with Dumb.

/I literally make a living with tablets, you dink, and I also can use Windows 8 so I know it's not a tablet.

ok, so troll then... adios troll.


Unbelievable. Haha.
 
2013-04-22 03:09:30 PM

Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: the UI is.

The start screen? Then menu I go to that keeps all the programs I use?


here... lets make it simple:

TABLET:
www.blogcdn.com

WINDOWS 8:
res2.windows.microsoft.com


/huh... fancy that... looks tablety to me.
 
2013-04-22 03:11:11 PM

skozlaw: HindiDiscoMonster: This is what the Windows 8 UI is all about... limited touchscreen interface not allowing the user the freedom afforded in a standard desktop environment - you know, exactly like a tablet.

The best part is that the whole point of Windows 8 + Surface was the idea that you would have a unified experience across devices with no loss of functionality... but the reality is that it's a mediocre interface on the tablet and a terrible one on the desktop.

What Microsoft envisioned was great.

What Microsoft delivered was crap on a cracker.


As someone who manages a Windows datacenter, I'm still hoping that they work it out, but this whole Apple-esque "STFU and like what I tell you to like" attitude doesn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies about the future of the OS.


i6.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-22 03:11:43 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: the UI is.

The start screen? Then menu I go to that keeps all the programs I use?

here... lets make it simple:

TABLET:
[www.blogcdn.com image 500x300]

WINDOWS 8:
[res2.windows.microsoft.com image 484x272]


/huh... fancy that... looks tablety to me.


So your claim is that the start menu looking like a tablet has "turned my PC into a tablet" is true... how? Because the Start Menu design works on tablets, my computer is now a tablet how?

I'm not asking what it LOOKS LIKE, I'm asking what you're claiming by saying it "turned my PC" into anything at all. I would presume the implication is loss of function, which is wrong.
 
2013-04-22 03:11:58 PM

LasersHurt: Says the man who spends yet more time attacking them.


The man who uses Windows 7, Windows 8, Server 2012, Server 2008 R2 and various related Microsoft technologies on a daily basis? And uses Windows 7 for his personal computer? I mean, really, the only two computing devices I use that aren't based on Microsoft technology are my Android phone and a linux station I use for networking work.

But, no, you keep speculating wildly about who I am. If I need to laugh too loudly I'll go lock myself in the datacenter and hide between the racks full of Windows machines to muffle the sound from my co-workers.

LasersHurt: This is the information age, man, go find out for yourself why a lot of people like the OS. There are plenty of articles.


Says the guy who had no problem demanding I list things out for him and then refused to acknowledge any of the studies and reports that I and others linked about problems people had with it.
 
2013-04-22 03:13:28 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: /huh... fancy that... looks tablety to me.


I really wish I wasn't too lazy to post pictures of a tablet running firefox and a desktop running firefox to show how superficial that argument is.
 
2013-04-22 03:14:17 PM

dehehn: [daily-grind.net image 500x375]

Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?


I use it every day, Start-L, locks your work station....
 
2013-04-22 03:14:23 PM

skozlaw: LasersHurt: Says the man who spends yet more time attacking them.

The man who uses Windows 7, Windows 8, Server 2012, Server 2008 R2 and various related Microsoft technologies on a daily basis? And uses Windows 7 for his personal computer? I mean, really, the only two computing devices I use that aren't based on Microsoft technology are my Android phone and a linux station I use for networking work.

But, no, you keep speculating wildly about who I am. If I need to laugh too loudly I'll go lock myself in the datacenter and hide between the racks full of Windows machines to muffle the sound from my co-workers.

LasersHurt: This is the information age, man, go find out for yourself why a lot of people like the OS. There are plenty of articles.

Says the guy who had no problem demanding I list things out for him and then refused to acknowledge any of the studies and reports that I and others linked about problems people had with it.


I made no assumptions about who you are, just said that you spent a lot of time attacking them. At ease, man, I use a lot of platforms too, I have for years. I have no idea why you interpreted that as some challenge to your credentials. I pointed out an obvious fact.

I didn't demand shiat from you, by the way. You provided usability studies to win whatever argument you were having at the time.
 
jvl
2013-04-22 03:14:25 PM

dehehn: Can they please get rid of this thing?  I can't count how many times I've died because of it trying to use Ctrl to crouch.  Does anyone actually use this button?


Move Ctrl to the Caps Locks key idiot.  Do you use Caps Lock? No. Do you need Ctrl a lot? It's easier to hit when it's next to 'A'.
 
2013-04-22 03:14:51 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: here... lets make it simple:


Yes. Let's.

I see a tablet with windows 8 on it and a screen shot of Windows 8 start screen.

I have a PC with Windows 8 on it. I am replying to you through a web browser on my desktop. My start screen is the metro interface that holds most of the programs I access quickly.

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong?
 
2013-04-22 03:15:35 PM

Egoy3k: HindiDiscoMonster: /huh... fancy that... looks tablety to me.

I really wish I wasn't too lazy to post pictures of a tablet running firefox and a desktop running firefox to show how superficial that argument is.


guess what.... I can run Firefox on Windows 7 too... and it doesn't have a radically different UI experience from prior versions.
 
2013-04-22 03:15:40 PM

Old enough to know better: Start button really isn't that big a deal for me. But if they ditch the touchscreen interface, and give me some compelling reason to switch other than "It loads faster", and I'll....consider it.


It also has that nice feature that when you switch between programs, you have to stop on the desktop for a moment so you can show the windows logo to your audience -- at least, it does when you're watching Castle or NCIS...
 
2013-04-22 03:17:04 PM

Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: here... lets make it simple:

Yes. Let's.

I see a tablet with windows 8 on it and a screen shot of Windows 8 start screen.

I have a PC with Windows 8 on it. I am replying to you through a web browser on my desktop. My start screen is the metro interface that holds most of the programs I access quickly.

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong?


please show me where I stated that you could not run 3rd party applications on Windows 8... go ahead... I'll wait.
 
2013-04-22 03:18:45 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: here... lets make it simple:

Yes. Let's.

I see a tablet with windows 8 on it and a screen shot of Windows 8 start screen.

I have a PC with Windows 8 on it. I am replying to you through a web browser on my desktop. My start screen is the metro interface that holds most of the programs I access quickly.

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong?

please show me where I stated that you could not run 3rd party applications on Windows 8... go ahead... I'll wait.


What?
 
2013-04-22 03:19:14 PM
So basically, we've "turned out PC's into Tablets" by... making one menu look like one.

I guess that means all those skins and themes I used when I was a kid meant my PC also turned into a Mac, The Matrix, and an LCARS terminal.
 
2013-04-22 03:22:17 PM

Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: here... lets make it simple:

Yes. Let's.

I see a tablet with windows 8 on it and a screen shot of Windows 8 start screen.

I have a PC with Windows 8 on it. I am replying to you through a web browser on my desktop. My start screen is the metro interface that holds most of the programs I access quickly.

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong?

please show me where I stated that you could not run 3rd party applications on Windows 8... go ahead... I'll wait.

What?


perhaps I should have bolded that for clarity.
my point was a simple one. the UI is a tablet UI... that in fact was the entire point of the interface as skozlaw already pointed out when he said: "The best part is that the whole point of Windows 8 + Surface was the idea that you would have a unified experience across devices with no loss of functionality."

unified - as in same interface across multiple device types: phone, PC, TABLET...
 
2013-04-22 03:31:04 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Egoy3k: HindiDiscoMonster: /huh... fancy that... looks tablety to me.

I really wish I wasn't too lazy to post pictures of a tablet running firefox and a desktop running firefox to show how superficial that argument is.

guess what.... I can run Firefox on Windows 7 too... and it doesn't have a radically different UI experience from prior versions.


That's nice. Neither does Windows 8. I'm glad we are all on the same page then.

Now even if windows 8 did have a 'radically different' UI that is still assuming that radically different equates to worse. Which it doesn't. For example;

My iPhone is radically different from my old Motorola RAZR flip phone.
My New racing bike is radically different from my old bike
The weather in Bermuda is radically different from that found here in Nova Scotia

Windows 8 is not a vast departure from windows 7 in any way. Most of the differences are very superficial in nature and are functionally identical to their predecessors.  I can agree that it's somewhat ugly but honestly the level of passion you have for the old start menu UI is somewhat startling. It's just a UI. People change UIs almost every time they buy a phone. They adapt, and usually the new UI feels comfortable to them very shortly.  Is it possible that you are just old and or bitter?
 
2013-04-22 03:31:29 PM
"So basically, we've "turned out PC's into Tablets" by... making one menu look like one."

One menu that's functionally identical to the windows 7 start menu. Correct. Get with the program!

GOSH!
 
2013-04-22 03:31:40 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: here... lets make it simple:

Yes. Let's.

I see a tablet with windows 8 on it and a screen shot of Windows 8 start screen.

I have a PC with Windows 8 on it. I am replying to you through a web browser on my desktop. My start screen is the metro interface that holds most of the programs I access quickly.

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong?

please show me where I stated that you could not run 3rd party applications on Windows 8... go ahead... I'll wait.

What?

perhaps I should have bolded that for clarity.
my point was a simple one. the UI is a tablet UI... that in fact was the entire point of the interface as skozlaw already pointed out when he said: "The best part is that the whole point of Windows 8 + Surface was the idea that you would have a unified experience across devices with no loss of functionality."

unified - as in same interface across multiple device types: phone, PC, TABLET...


Windows 8 turned me into a newt!......I got better.

Seriously though just because the UI  looks like a tablet doesn't mean windows8  turned your PC into a tablet upon install.
Which is what you said. LasersHurt: I feel for ya man arguing with these people is like trying to nail Jell-o to a tree
 
2013-04-22 03:36:06 PM

LasersHurt: but for whatever reason the Metro UI confuses and terrifies and angers people, even though it can be largely ignored


You really have no idea what the capabilities of an "ordinary" PC user are.
 
2013-04-22 03:36:27 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: perhaps I should have bolded that for clarity.
my point was a simple one. the UI is a tablet UI... that in fact was the entire point of the interface as skozlaw already pointed out when he said: "The best part is that the whole point of Windows 8 + Surface was the idea that you would have a unified experience across devices with no loss of functionality."

unified - as in same interface across multiple device types: phone, PC, TABLET...


This does things that I could never do on Windows 7 and it demolishes it functionality wise. It's the fastest thing I've ever used. I get updates from my news app and I'm watching streaming videos without a browser instantly. Sometimes I think this thing knows what I am going to do next. It is hard to describe it. I guess you have to use it for a while. It mounts ISO files natively. I find any file I ever need to search for instantly and it pools a comprehensive list of other apps and files flawlessly. *Don't want to mention the Windows key because that is sacrilegious here but I will anyways) The menu system in the file explorer has everything right there. It is fully customizable. It boots up in less than 10 seconds. I never need to use the touch screen and the keyboard and mouse work elegantly.

But you were only asking for one logical reason to upgrade and you mentioned something about it being a tablet so it was kind of hard for me to understand what you were trying to say at first.
 
2013-04-22 03:37:13 PM
Meh - personally, I love the lack of the old-style start-menu.  Not because I care about the menu, but it's a great way for me to filter out people's whose opinions I don't really care about.  By all means, use whatever you like, but it's a great way for me to filter out noise.

Them: 'Man that OS sucks!'
Me: 'How come?'
Them:  'The UI is so ugly!'
Me:  'Oh.  And what else?'
Them:  'Like they took away the old UI button and now they have like this new thing and I don't like it.  It totally sucks'
Me:  'Gotcha.  So....is it stable?  Does it run lots of stuff?  Is it fast?  Does it have any cool features worth mentioning?'
Them:  'It's like all blocky looking...lol...like omg AOL did that in 2002'
Me:  'I see.  So you don't like the UI?'
Them:  'Yeah - they took away this button and now there is a new screen.  Worthless OS'
Me:  'Huh.  A lot of times I spend a few minutes customizing the OS I'm running.  I'm constantly looking for applications to add to my toolbox and settings/options I can configure.  Did you try anything to improve the UI?
Them:  'No - it's just ugly.  I wanted the old start button'
Me:  'Cause like, I just did a Google search and there's like five free programs that all claim to give you back the start button and/or completely disable metro'
Them:  'Umm - no, it sucks.  I don't want to have to do anything, it should just be exactly what I want'
Me:  'Yeah.  I mean, I can kind of understand that.  But don't you normally buy/download/install a whole bunch of different applications?  Office, Photoshop, Steam, a tool to mount ISOs, etc, etc...'
Them:  'Yeah - but like, those are different.  They aren't basic features of the OS'
Me:  'Well sure, I guess some of them aren't.  But then, WinZip used to be super important and then .zip support became a basic feature of the OS.  And Windows 8 makes .ISO files a basic feature of the OS, maybe there is some give and take....instead of one freeware app to do something, you could have another freeware app to do something else.  Maybe the entirety of the OS is more than just whether or not a start menu looks the same as what you are used to...'
Them:  'No.  Pretty much all I care about is my start menu.
 
2013-04-22 03:43:16 PM

LasersHurt: just said that you spent a lot of time attacking them


No, that's just how you choose to perceive legitimate and measurable complaints about a product.

If Kellogg's released a new cereal that they said was just plain awesome, and it was just a box full of dirt, and I complained about it because I and millions of others don't really feel like eating dirt for breakfast, would you accuse me of "attacking" them even as I ate a bowl of Rice Krispies?

YOU are the one who is completely unreasonable in this. I have seen you accuse people of being too dumb to learn it or just of being "idiots" for disliking it. And, when challenged, you have completely refused to attempt any positive defense of this thing you seem to think is, at the very least, good enough to justify you upgrading to it.

I don't know what else to tell you, man. The charges against it are out there. If you think those things are wrong that's fine, but at some point it would be really nice if you'd explain why instead of just throwing up glib bullshiat about using the Windows key or pretending you can just ignore the lynchpin of the interface.

LasersHurt: I didn't demand shiat from you, by the way


No, you didn't demand it, but did request it and I gave you eight responses.

The best part? I was even WRONG about one of them and you couldn't even be bothered to be the one to point it out! Granted, the way you had to do the thing I was talking about was unnecessarily complicated and it didn't achieve what I actually needed in my specific situation when I looked up the instructions and tried it out, but, still, when I gave you a specific problem I had and was wrong you couldn't even catch that.

You keep accusing everyone else of not using it before speaking... I'm starting to wonder if maybe you doth have a bit of a projection issue.
 
2013-04-22 03:44:08 PM

Egoy3k: HindiDiscoMonster: Egoy3k: HindiDiscoMonster: /huh... fancy that... looks tablety to me.

I really wish I wasn't too lazy to post pictures of a tablet running firefox and a desktop running firefox to show how superficial that argument is.

guess what.... I can run Firefox on Windows 7 too... and it doesn't have a radically different UI experience from prior versions.

That's nice. Neither does Windows 8. I'm glad we are all on the same page then.

Now even if windows 8 did have a 'radically different' UI that is still assuming that radically different equates to worse. Which it doesn't. For example;

My iPhone is radically different from my old Motorola RAZR flip phone.
My New racing bike is radically different from my old bike
The weather in Bermuda is radically different from that found here in Nova Scotia

Windows 8 is not a vast departure from windows 7 in any way. Most of the differences are very superficial in nature and are functionally identical to their predecessors.  I can agree that it's somewhat ugly but honestly the level of passion you have for the old start menu UI is somewhat startling. It's just a UI. People change UIs almost every time they buy a phone. They adapt, and usually the new UI feels comfortable to them very shortly.  Is it possible that you are just old and or bitter?


I hate to break this to you, but 90% of the market share are not technical users... they are grandmas and grandpas and people who generally don't want to relearn how to use their computers. I don't hate the new interface because it is different, I just feel that you cannot radically change the interface in the span of 1 version thereby alienating 90% of your user base for the home PC market and not have repercussions. The sales indicators are a very strong data point to exactly that problem... you want a new interface, fine... introduce it over 3 or 4 versions - slowly, so that your user base can comfortably make the transition, you don't simply change the whole thing and expect them (the people who just want to use the same programs they used to by clicking on an icon on their desktop which no longer looks like their desktop) to be happy. I can use it comfortably, but I personally have no compelling reason to upgrade (no new hardware). On the Linux side - same thing, when they decided to radically change the interface, most people refused to upgrade (I am only speaking about ubuntu because it has the largest user base of any single distro at this moment - or I should say it did)... but because Gnome decided they wanted to change the UI just to be different, they alienated the largest portion of their target audience - not wise if you want to keep your users.

As to the bolded point: bullshiat... if you can't see the difference between 7 and every single other version prior to 8 (back to 95 that is), then you need a pair of glasses, or you need to stop talking about what's under the hood as my post has NOTHING to do with that - only with the UI.
 
2013-04-22 03:44:58 PM

Marcus Aurelius: LasersHurt: but for whatever reason the Metro UI confuses and terrifies and angers people, even though it can be largely ignored

You really have no idea what the capabilities of an "ordinary" PC user are.


It's only been like 3 years since I supported desktop end users, and I would never err on the side of "smart", but I still think they could have gotten over it. Still, like I recommended upthread, if you're already on Win 7 and things are cool now... meh. Save upgrading for the next guy to deal with.
 
2013-04-22 03:45:42 PM

skozlaw: I'm starting to wonder if maybe you doth have a bit of a projection issue.


I have mentioned many times that I've been using Windows 8 as my main OS for months now.
 
2013-04-22 03:47:12 PM

orange whip: HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: Wholesale Ass: HindiDiscoMonster: here... lets make it simple:

Yes. Let's.

I see a tablet with windows 8 on it and a screen shot of Windows 8 start screen.

I have a PC with Windows 8 on it. I am replying to you through a web browser on my desktop. My start screen is the metro interface that holds most of the programs I access quickly.

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong?

please show me where I stated that you could not run 3rd party applications on Windows 8... go ahead... I'll wait.

What?

perhaps I should have bolded that for clarity.
my point was a simple one. the UI is a tablet UI... that in fact was the entire point of the interface as skozlaw already pointed out when he said: "The best part is that the whole point of Windows 8 + Surface was the idea that you would have a unified experience across devices with no loss of functionality."

unified - as in same interface across multiple device types: phone, PC, TABLET...

Windows 8 turned me into a newt!......I got better.

Seriously though just because the UI  looks like a tablet doesn't mean windows8  turned your PC into a tablet upon install.
Which is what you said. LasersHurt: I feel for ya man arguing with these people is like trying to nail Jell-o to a tree


another willfully obtuse person... how special.

s3.amazonaws.com
 
2013-04-22 03:51:17 PM

skozlaw: As someone who manages a Windows datacenter, I'm still hoping that they work it out, but this whole Apple-esque "STFU and like what I tell you to like" attitude doesn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies about the future of the OS.


Compare Windows 7 with Windows 8...the long open Beta...back in the heady days of 2008-2009 when Microsoft actually listened to their users.
 
2013-04-22 03:54:48 PM

skozlaw: If Kellogg's released a new cereal that they said was just plain awesome, and it was just a box full of dirt, and I complained about it because I and millions of others don't really feel like eating dirt for breakfast, would you accuse me of "attacking" them even as I ate a bowl of Rice Krispies?


This analogy is bad. You go to the store and buy the new version of Kellogg's Rice Krispies. They advertise it as a new flavor with better nutritional value. You get home and biatch because the shape of the puff is different or the box art isn't appealing to you.

Yes, Windows 8 is a little different. It has some really nice improvements to make the entire OS run faster, more secure, and have a smaller foot print than previous versions. And they removed your start button and menu. But, really, the MetroUI IS a start menu. If you hover down in the lower left, where teh start button usually is, a little window pops up, and when you click it, like clicking the Start Button, you go to the start menu. The windows key, when pressed, like versions of windows since Xp (i'm pretty sure), will open up the Start Menu. Its just laid out a little differently. It allows you to customize it so you can see your most frequently used applications. If you use the live tiles, you can see, news, sports, weather, RSS feeds, social networking information, emails, all at a glance. Its a hell of a lot more informative than the old Start Menu that you guys are up in arms about.

Granted, I'm not WILD about the artistic direction. In fact, ever since XP I've wanted microsoft to allow me MORE flexibility in the customization of how the buttons and bars and backgrounds have been colored, and I think we've been losing that ability more and more since XP. If I had ONE major complaint for Windows 8, I want Aero Glass back.
 
2013-04-22 04:07:35 PM

LasersHurt: skozlaw: I'm starting to wonder if maybe you doth have a bit of a projection issue.

I have mentioned many times that I've been using Windows 8 as my main OS for months now.


I remember the issues I had before upgrading to Windows 8. I used go around saying things like, "I really don't' want to use my desktop like a kiosk." -Things like that.

It makes me want to go back and talk some sense into myself. Pat myself on the head. It pains me to see misinformation and lack of actual use dictating the success of this product or any product.

This resembles more of an attack rather than there actually being something wrong with it, because I'm using this biatch right now and there is nothing wrong with it.

'DON'T TELL ME ABOUT THE WINDOWS KEY I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR SHORT CUTS!!!!'

'YOU DON'T GET THAT I HAVE MORE PEOPLE ON MY SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT AND IT DOESN'T
MATTER IF IT WORKS OR NOT BECAUSE I HAVE MORE PEOPLE ON MY SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT THAN YOU DO!'

'YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE HATE IT!'

Well I'm using it and I'm at least TRYING to understand what there is to hate about it. If it is the UI  or the start menu button missing.... I don't know. That seems to be it though. Just those two things and something about the print management feature.

All I know is that when I go back to using a computer with 7 or XP on it it feels dull and lifeless. They're clunky and slow, too. It's weird how you really notice that stuff when you go back. Oh well.
 
2013-04-22 04:10:39 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: The sales indicators are a very strong data point to exactly that problem... you want a new interface, fine... introduce it over 3 or 4 versions - slowly, so that your user base can comfortably make the transition, you don't simply change the whole thing and expect them (the people who just want to use the same programs they used to by clicking on an icon on their desktop which no longer looks like their desktop) to be happy.


The sales figures are a strong indicator of poor PC sales. Almost nobody upgrades windows without new hardware. Existing users are finding that their PCs are powerful enough to run a browser for many years and since that is all most of them do now they don't need a new PC. Tablet sales are eating into PC sales as well.

The desktop is still there. You can still put shortcuts on it. There is nothing functionally different about the UI. Metro is the new start menu and it functions exactly as the old one did.
 
2013-04-22 04:23:01 PM

Celerian: You get home and biatch because the shape of the puff is different or the box art isn't appealing to you.


So my analogy was bad because I didn't prefab it to fit your personal bias?

Two points:

1. I'm not going to be justifying the absurd argument that Windows 8 just looks a little different or that the Start screen is fundamentally the same interface for launching applications and documents that it replaced. My one and only response to that absurd position is the NNG Windows 8 study..

2. I'm not restarting this argument from the beginning with you. If you want to jump into the middle of it, that's fine, you should feel free to answer any of the questions I've posed to LasersHurt or click the link I provided above to my 8 specific, real-world examples of trouble and explain what I did wrong in any of them.
 
2013-04-22 04:23:42 PM

Egoy3k: HindiDiscoMonster: The sales indicators are a very strong data point to exactly that problem... you want a new interface, fine... introduce it over 3 or 4 versions - slowly, so that your user base can comfortably make the transition, you don't simply change the whole thing and expect them (the people who just want to use the same programs they used to by clicking on an icon on their desktop which no longer looks like their desktop) to be happy.

The sales figures are a strong indicator of poor PC sales. Almost nobody upgrades windows without new hardware. Existing users are finding that their PCs are powerful enough to run a browser for many years and since that is all most of them do now they don't need a new PC. Tablet sales are eating into PC sales as well.

The desktop is still there. You can still put shortcuts on it. There is nothing functionally different about the UI. Metro is the new start menu and it functions exactly as the old one did.


because it's damn near impossible to get a PC without Windows 8.
The articles are out there. Try reading some of them. I know of two people personally (I am retired so I don't do that kind or work anymore, or I would know more now) who absolutely refused to upgrade to a new PC unless they could get Windows 7 on it instead of 8. That is the typical user - the user who is comfortable with the UI that they know, and is unwilling to learn a new UI.
 
2013-04-22 05:03:46 PM

skozlaw: Celerian: You get home and biatch because the shape of the puff is different or the box art isn't appealing to you.

So my analogy was bad because I didn't prefab it to fit your personal bias?

Two points:

1. I'm not going to be justifying the absurd argument that Windows 8 just looks a little different or that the Start screen is fundamentally the same interface for launching applications and documents that it replaced. My one and only response to that absurd position is the NNG Windows 8 study..

2. I'm not restarting this argument from the beginning with you. If you want to jump into the middle of it, that's fine, you should feel free to answer any of the questions I've posed to LasersHurt or click the link I provided above to my 8 specific, real-world examples of trouble and explain what I did wrong in any of them.


Alright...

1. Loss of Start Menu = loss of nested configuration files for my PBX application = I have to maintain seven different shortcuts: 1 for the PBX and 6 for remote gateways

Its hard for me to address this one, since I'm not sure what your layout looked like. Have you tried pinning your PBX application to the bar at the bottom of the screen? You should easily be able to load all of your commonly used short cuts through the PBX application by Right Clicking on the pinned application. You could have done this on Vista and Windows 7. Probably XP as well.

2. Non-windowing, anti-ALT-TAB Metro apps = you can't set a desktop application side-by-side with a Metro application when you need to read information off one to the other.

Which apps are you using that you cannot set to a 33/66 percent of the screen and use the desktop on the other part? If you don't want to use the Metro apps, why not use a desktop app and just work in desktop mode?

3. Many configuration-based Metro apps (particularly those in the Control Center) duplicate existing configuration tools but provide fewer options. They also come up first when doing the type as you search and it's easy to launch the wrong one.

Any examples of ones you have problems with? The settings from metro are meant to be boiled down, but you can still get to everything through the normal control center. The only real complaint I could see here is if you absolutely must mess with local/group policy and you only have a home edition. I know that feel, bro. Local/group policy was removed for us home users. As far as type-search and launching the wrong one, I can understand that being frustrating, but if you're typing the name differently and something pops up, its almost impossible for Windows to know what you really meant to type. I suppose it could eventually learn what you probably mean, but I don't think they made that feature.

4. As was the case with Windows 7, the now-virtually-mandatory type as you search mechanism for launching things is spotty, at best, and often doesn't find what you're looking for because things aren't always named what you might expect them to be.

This type search thing has been around since at least Windows XP. It wasn't mandatory with Xp, Vista or 7. It certainly isn't mandatory with 8, although much mroe helpful to find applications quickly. With the old shell, you could hit the start button and wade through menues or you could type the name in the search box and it would look for the program. In windows 8, you can still bring up the metro UI and right click to access All Applications. Or you can type to find the application your looking for. Or you can make a shortcut on the desktop. Or pin it to your menu bar at the bottom of the screen. Or bring its tile to the beginning of your Metro UI interface. If I want to work on a program, I hit my windows key, and then my second panel is my development programs. I hit the one I want and away I go.

5. Everything being flat makes it easy to miss fields that can be typed in andextremelyeasy to mistake clickable links on the screen for plain text.

Can't say I've had issues not being able to see buttons or text boxes. I'm not a fan of the flat, solid color scheme. I really liked Aero Glass, and would love to have it back across Windows 8. Now, I could see it being a problem if your colorblind, as many of the boxes aren't well defined with a border, and I haven't turned on color blind mode to see if there's something to help. There are also mouse features in accessibility (that have been around since forever) that will slow your mouse when it moves over a text box, and you can always tab through any buttons and text boxes on your active window.

6. The requirement to use the Start screen covers up the work you're doing on the desktop making it impossible to have something open (e.g. instructions) that you can read as you're trying to do something with the Start screen.

Again, I'm fairly certain that you can have the desktop as a 33/66 setting with a metro app or start screen on the other part. Drag down from the top and move it to either the right or left, as straight down will close any metro app or the desktop.

7. It is extremely difficult tobrowseapplications in any meaningful way unless you take the time to group them all since they're just vomited all across the Start screen.

I agree with you here in priciple, but yet again, I find that I really only use a handful of applications. Once I have them all grouped how I like, I almost never have to use the All Applications to find something, since chances are I use it on a semi-frequent basis and its probably situated neatly in one of my groupings.

8. Evenifyou figure out the obnoxiously complicated process for creating named groups, they still appear as vomit on the screen, it's just chunkier.And labeled.

If you play with the customization of the tile sizes and positioning, you can usually work something out so that its not so crazy. Keep in mind, that its supposed to easily be able to integrate across phone/tablet/computer, and there will be nuances that work better for each. What I look forward to in Blue, is the supposed ability to make your tiles smaller. Right now, they have Small and Large, and the difference is like 1X1 and 1X2. However, Blue will allow us to make an icon that's 1/4 of the 1X1 button, so its more like 1X1, 2X2 and 2X4 for tile sizes, and that should give you more flexibility on layout and also allow you to get more programs on your start screen.

Again, I'm sorry that Windows 8 doesn't seem to be for you. I struggled with it at first, and I had to make myself look at it in a different light. It also helped to realize that I wanted to be able to try and help people with their complaints, because I ended up doing the same thing when Vista came out. A lot of people had complaints about things that didn't seem to matter at all, or weren't big changes, and then when 7 rolled around, the changes stayed and no one complained about it. Things like "Add/Remove Programs"being changed to "Programs and Features"felt like earth shattering issues that MUST BE FIXED OR I'LL GO TO LINUX! I can't force you to like the new layout. Hopefully I can help you to learn to like it, or find something you like about it, that might make your transition easier. The truth is, that this appears to be the direction that Microsoft is going in, and you can learn it, jump ship, or complain and hope they revert to the tried and true. While I'm not 100% satisfied with Windows 8, I'm giving it a solid try from the gate, because even if this ends up being a trial and error sort of thing, they're at least TRYING to be innovative. I can't fault a company for trying to do something new.
 
2013-04-22 05:08:21 PM
My first example with Windows 8 was, admittedly, a flawed one, but it has caused me not to switch to Win8 yet. I'm normally an early adopter. We had installed it on a remote system and then logged into it remotely through the remote desktop service to do some website u/i testing. It was damn near impossible to get the "Start Hover" to appear in the remote session. There was like a 1 pixel sweet spot that you had to hit before you it would pop. Hitting the Windows key on the keyboard brought up the local machine's start menu. This effectively meant that you could not get back to the Metro view once you left it without restarting. It was a frustrating experience that I would not have had if there was still an actual Start button/menu in the desktop display. More puzzling is that it wasn't done to eliminate the taskbar, its still there, takes up as much space as it used to, it's just much less functional. It's left a bad taste in my mouth that I have yet to shake. Maybe Win8.1 is worth another look.
 
2013-04-22 05:39:58 PM

LasersHurt: gingerjet: LasersHurt: Our department implemented it with... zero retraining. None was needed.

The depends what type of organization you are.  Upgrading 130k desktops/laptops is one thing.  Upgrading 5 is quite another.  And Windows 7 is the first OS Microsoft has kicked since XP that is stable and offers something for corporations.  Windows 8 offers nothing but some incremental improvements and an interface that frankly sucks.

I like Win 8 and have no problems with it, but if you have a large number of units on Win 7, and everything's going well, I probably wouldn't bother going to 8. I think it's fine, but for whatever reason the Metro UI confuses and terrifies and angers people, even though it can be largely ignored. I don't think it's going away, but it's still best to wait it out.

And who knows, this next "Blue" update might take care of a lot of the worries.


Think of it this way,  Would you buy a car that had no driver's side door.  To get in the car as a driver,  you had to get in on the passenger side,  and then slide over in the driver's seat?  Even though 3/4 of the users of the car are passengers,  the important one is still the driver.
 
2013-04-22 05:43:18 PM

mcsmiley: LasersHurt: gingerjet: LasersHurt: Our department implemented it with... zero retraining. None was needed.

The depends what type of organization you are.  Upgrading 130k desktops/laptops is one thing.  Upgrading 5 is quite another.  And Windows 7 is the first OS Microsoft has kicked since XP that is stable and offers something for corporations.  Windows 8 offers nothing but some incremental improvements and an interface that frankly sucks.

I like Win 8 and have no problems with it, but if you have a large number of units on Win 7, and everything's going well, I probably wouldn't bother going to 8. I think it's fine, but for whatever reason the Metro UI confuses and terrifies and angers people, even though it can be largely ignored. I don't think it's going away, but it's still best to wait it out.

And who knows, this next "Blue" update might take care of a lot of the worries.

Think of it this way,  Would you buy a car that had no driver's side door.  To get in the car as a driver,  you had to get in on the passenger side,  and then slide over in the driver's seat?  Even though 3/4 of the users of the car are passengers,  the important one is still the driver.


What, in your analogy, is the "passenger door" of Windows 8? What's the "driver's door"?

Help me understand your point.
 
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