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(Fox News)   And here we go: a CUNY professor is complaining about "too much force" being used against the Tsarnaev brothers   (nation.foxnews.com) divider line 196
    More: Stupid, Douglas A-20 Havoc, Boston Police Department  
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8245 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Apr 2013 at 2:49 PM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-22 04:29:59 PM

Zasteva: vernonFL: Of course all Liberals think like this. Libs will side with the terrorists EVERY time.

Well, at least the ones you build of straw will. I'm one of those Libby-Libs and I think they used appropriate force.'


You're the exception.

EVERY post from a 'liberal' pundit varied from'They must are Right-wing nutcases' to 'I hope they aren't Muslims' to 'they used too much force to capture them'.

Be proud that you have a sense of right and wrong because the vast majority of your brethren don't.
 
2013-04-22 04:31:41 PM

ha-ha-guy: This is the first time the ownership of those Bearcat things has been justifiable by the PD for a long while.  They actually make a case for being useful when hunting the IED brothers.


Sorry, I missed the Bearcat heroics.  Summary, please?
 
2013-04-22 04:32:54 PM

duenor: On the other hand, I don't know if the younger brother was handled properly. What I definitely do not want to see is a population who is accustomed to "he's a terrorist, shoot on sight".


And where EXACTLY to you see this happening?
You don't.
If anything the US goes out of its way to ensure their rights aren't violated.
 
2013-04-22 04:34:27 PM
If it was in New York City or LA the police would have shot at at least injured 20 other people in the process.
 
2013-04-22 04:35:11 PM

anelson41: If you read her comment VERY carefully, you'll soon realize that you have no idea what she's talking about or what her point is.


And who's fault is that?

This was just a drunken rant.
 
2013-04-22 04:44:52 PM
This was so needed, we may go back and do it several times

www.jcvandamme.net
 
2013-04-22 04:50:48 PM
TheOtherMisterP: You automatically have Miranda rights. Having them read to you doesn't grant you magic legal powers. You always have the right to remain silent, regardless of whether or not you're reminded of it.

Every citizen should be aware of this. If TV has taught us anything, it's our Miranda rights. And if you haven't watched enough TV to be aware of it, then you don't deserve citizenship.

It drives me crazy that charges can be dropped because a cop forgets to recite something the scummy suspect already knows.



Really?  It bothers you to think that the police have a duty to inform an American citizen of his rights?  Hey, since we're already tossing around the "you don't deserve citizenship" judgement, wanna guess who I figure least deserves citizenship in this scenario?

/Not really
//But you are a bad person and you should feel ashamed.
 
2013-04-22 04:52:22 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: ciberido: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: vernonFL: Of course all Liberals think like this. Libs will side with the terrorists EVERY time.

Obviously not true. However many liberals (and an increasing number of conservatives) tend to be emotion-based in their thinking processes, and thereby arrive at invalid conclusions. The truth if this is obvious here on Fark, as it seems to be the liberals who most use ad hominem and other illogical rhetorical weapons.

The result is that extreme liberals sometimes do end up supporting terrorism, at least tacitly. One example of this is the apparently mindless support by many liberals for radical Islam. Why? Well, one theory might be that many extreme liberals, there being a large Venn overlap with Atheism, fear and mock Christians, particularly Fundamentalists. Because of their emotion-based thinking, they then - even in the face of hard evidence - tend to defend radical Islam. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend," etc.

So, yeah, you will find occasional libtards who side with terrorists.


The Freudian is strong with this one.  But damn, you have a knack for making the crazy more interesting than most of the folks here.

You DO realize, don't you, that: (1) Freud has been pretty much discredited for the last couple of decades, and (2) your statement is a perfect example of what I said about "liberals who most use ad hominem and other illogical rhetorical weapons."?



You DO realize, don't you, that you are projecting like a boss?
 
2013-04-22 05:00:04 PM

zedster: Surprise the entirety of her post says something different
http://ruthobrien.org/a-day-of-terror/


Fox? quoting something out of context?

Shocking.
 
2013-04-22 05:02:43 PM

RINO: IdBeCrazyIf: Isn't it coming out that he ran his brother over with the stolen SUV? Like cops were subduing the first brother and the second went all bowling for cops and instead missed the spare?

I don't think he missed. I've a Russian friend who fought in Chechnia. He claims that Chechen fighters commonly kill their wounded to prevent interrogations.


An interesting factoid, but I'm taking anything told to a soldier about their enemy with a big grain of salt. Every army uses propaganda like this to dehumanize their enemies in their soldiers' eyes.
 
2013-04-22 05:05:00 PM
Take away the MEDICAL incision on the dead bombers abdomen, and that picture isn't bad at all.  Does she not realize that massive cut was done by medical personnel to access the thoracic organs?
 
2013-04-22 05:16:32 PM
FTA


The United States that I love hunts down terrorists AND follows human rights during capture. Giving the worst criminal or terrorist the most dignity during captivity shows why we should not be feared as a nation and is the best antidote to terrorism.

We accept difference, as a nation, and we should champion our greatest strength - inclusivity - at these extreme moments if we want the character of the United States not to be judged harshly by the global community.  Once all the adrenaline subsides, I hope we will all be witnesses at the Internal Affairs investigation about undue force.
 Well, O'brien, I for one could give a good GD what the 'Globality' out there thinks of us. "Should not be feared as a nation." ??? I can't wrap my mind around that statement and ... undue force for the last line.

Sweet babbling Judas, I suggest O'brien stroll through South Chicago this next Saturday night and then tell me how she feels about undue force.

What mind of mush

/academic
 
2013-04-22 05:21:56 PM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: Take away the MEDICAL incision on the dead bombers abdomen, and that picture isn't bad at all.  Does she not realize that massive cut was done by medical personnel to access the thoracic organs?


Well actually, probably not.  It looks like it was cleaned up by medical folks to try and help save his life.  Thorocotomys in general do not go against the lie of the ribs like that.  Also, if it was a medical intervention, the fat layers would be in line with the incision itself, not scraped back with a jagged edge that doesn't match the cut.

Just based upon the one photo, he probably arrived with a massive open trauma there and the medical staff started cutting back the broken chunks of flesh and bone to try and get better visual and manual access.  The fact that they didn't go much farther than just barely starting the central lines around his left and right subclavians means in all likelyhood he had no blood pressure, had bled out quite a bit, and death was called shortly after arrival.

/Also, this is not how one 'massages' the heart
 
2013-04-22 05:23:17 PM
Just Another OC Homeless Guy: vernonFL: Of course all Liberals think like this. Libs will side with the terrorists EVERY time.
Obviously not true. However many liberals (and an increasing number of conservatives) tend to be emotion-based in their thinking processes, and thereby arrive at invalid conclusions. The truth if this is obvious here on Fark, as it seems to be the liberals who most use ad hominem and other illogical rhetorical weapons.
The result is that extreme liberals sometimes do end up supporting terrorism, at least tacitly. One example of this is the apparently mindless support by many liberals for radical Islam. Why? Well, one theory might be that many extreme liberals, there being a large Venn overlap with Atheism, fear and mock Christians, particularly Fundamentalists. Because of their emotion-based thinking, they then - even in the face of hard evidence - tend to defend radical Islam. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend," etc.
So, yeah, you will find occasional libtards who side with terrorists.


Funny how he's projecting what every Conservative in this thread has been doing

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
.
 
2013-04-22 06:00:57 PM

cwheelie: Tatsuma: City University of New York Professor Ruth

I immediately went 'Please not a Jew please not a Jew

O'Brien

Score!

on the other hand, her name is Ruth, so she probably is Jewish and just married an Irishman to piss off her mother.
just sayin'


Ironically (from her page at Amazon):   O'Brien lives with her second husband Frederic in 2 houses in New Jersey, where they are raising two teenagers. O'Brien would have been the second Ruth Ann Schwarz had her husband not adopted her father's name at their wedding uniting all of them under one name.
 
2013-04-22 06:09:17 PM

dotvincent: Ironically (from her page at Amazon): O'Brien lives with her second husband Frederic in 2 houses in New Jersey, where they are raising two teenagers. O'Brien would have been the second Ruth Ann Schwarz had her husband not adopted her father's name at their wedding uniting all of them under one name.


So, she wrote this, and she got her husband to take her name? Urgh.
 
2013-04-22 06:12:28 PM

rwfan: lolpix: rwfan: btw, wtf is she doing hunting down the death photos?

They've been going around the web. You practically have to make more of an effort to not see them. They're not particularly bad for a guy who's had a thoracotomy, been shot, and appears to have had a car run over his face. If anything, we should not be questioning the motivation behind looking at the images, and instead consider the appropriateness of officials unofficially posting morgue shots on their Twitter pages.

I guess I don't hang out at the right corners of the interwebs because I never even heard of that picture until just now.  I agree with your point about the officials posting morgue shots on Twitter though.


GIS the guys name, it is like 8 or 9 pics down and I only found it because of GISing the name earlier (I wasn't looking for it).  I agree with the other poster though the guy is pretty good shape considering everything he went through. He's certainly more intact than some of his victims.
 
2013-04-22 06:14:12 PM

Ned Stark: They shut down an entire city and called out the farking national guard for a teenager with a pistol and some tubesocks full of gunpowder. Yes force was excessive. Everyone involved should be embarrassed.


Your concern is noted.  Really it is nothing to lose your head about though.
 
2013-04-22 06:24:56 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-22 06:39:22 PM
  If only Air America was still around to cover this story.
www.politifake.org
 
2013-04-22 06:48:44 PM

slayer199: Really?

I'm usually one to jump all over abuse of force...but in this case, they were wanted for a bombing that killed 3 innocent individuals and wounded or maimed over 100 more.  They killed a cop, they carjacked another individual...and led police on a chase.  They were clearly armed and dangerous.  Terrorism or not, the use of force was in this case was completely justified.


Boston PD also did not shoot up any innocent bystanders.  Not that I'm looking at any other PDs....
 
2013-04-22 07:50:11 PM

ciberido: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: ciberido: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: vernonFL: Of course all Liberals think like this. Libs will side with the terrorists EVERY time.

Obviously not true. However many liberals (and an increasing number of conservatives) tend to be emotion-based in their thinking processes, and thereby arrive at invalid conclusions. The truth if this is obvious here on Fark, as it seems to be the liberals who most use ad hominem and other illogical rhetorical weapons.

The result is that extreme liberals sometimes do end up supporting terrorism, at least tacitly. One example of this is the apparently mindless support by many liberals for radical Islam. Why? Well, one theory might be that many extreme liberals, there being a large Venn overlap with Atheism, fear and mock Christians, particularly Fundamentalists. Because of their emotion-based thinking, they then - even in the face of hard evidence - tend to defend radical Islam. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend," etc.

So, yeah, you will find occasional libtards who side with terrorists.


The Freudian is strong with this one.  But damn, you have a knack for making the crazy more interesting than most of the folks here.

You DO realize, don't you, that: (1) Freud has been pretty much discredited for the last couple of decades, and (2) your statement is a perfect example of what I said about "liberals who most use ad hominem and other illogical rhetorical weapons."?


You DO realize, don't you, that you are projecting like a boss?


Projection? Really? That all you got (see above)? Sigh. You really can't seem to break out of that mold, can you?

But I'll accept the boss phrase as a compliment.

Like A Boss is a catchphrase often used in image macros or GIFs that feature a person completing an action with authority and finesse. Similar to ,
 
2013-04-22 07:55:50 PM

Latinwolf: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: vernonFL: Of course all Liberals think like this. Libs will side with the terrorists EVERY time.
Obviously not true. However many liberals (and an increasing number of conservatives) tend to be emotion-based in their thinking processes, and thereby arrive at invalid conclusions. The truth if this is obvious here on Fark, as it seems to be the liberals who most use ad hominem and other illogical rhetorical weapons.
The result is that extreme liberals sometimes do end up supporting terrorism, at least tacitly. One example of this is the apparently mindless support by many liberals for radical Islam. Why? Well, one theory might be that many extreme liberals, there being a large Venn overlap with Atheism, fear and mock Christians, particularly Fundamentalists. Because of their emotion-based thinking, they then - even in the face of hard evidence - tend to defend radical Islam. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend," etc.
So, yeah, you will find occasional libtards who side with terrorists.

Funny how he's projecting what every Conservative in this thread has been doing

[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 248x192]
.


Not being a conservative, I would agree with you. Well, not every conservative on this thread, but quite a few of them. As well as more than quite a few liberals (of which, it appears, you may be one. Hasty Generalization is, after all, an invalid argument).
 
2013-04-22 08:21:41 PM

duenor: I have no sympathy for terrorists. However, I do have reservations about how we ought to handle such terrorists when we have them surrounded.

The older brother - fark him. He got what he deserved. When you start shooting at cops, you'll get what's coming to you.

On the other hand, I don't know if the younger brother was handled properly. What I definitely do not want to see is a population who is accustomed to "he's a terrorist, shoot on sight". It is far too easy for that to lead to a police state gestapo squad. I believe more efforts should have been made to take him alive as well as giving him plenty of time to surrender. But it seems like there was a lot of pressure on PD to get it over with quickly.

Then again, I don't have all the information. I am also not an expert. I can simply voice a concern. Regardless, the officers who chose to engage those two are brave men and women and I appreciate their efforts.


You have no idea how they captured him, do you? I mean, not at all?

They waited for him to fall unconscious once they located him. It took a long time. This is after he fired over twenty rounds at approaching police officers, who themselves were given direct orders NOT to return fire, but to retreat.

Seriously, where the hell are you coming from? lol
 
2013-04-22 08:31:52 PM

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: If only Air America was still around to cover this story.
[www.politifake.org image 265x280]


(This is what conservatives actually think liberals are like)
 
2013-04-22 08:33:16 PM
Yeah... I was kind of concerned about that at first... and then I remembered that they had bombs. I mean if you only bring guns to a bomb fight then you aren't using too much force.
 
2013-04-22 08:38:57 PM

BafflerMeal: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Take away the MEDICAL incision on the dead bombers abdomen, and that picture isn't bad at all.  Does she not realize that massive cut was done by medical personnel to access the thoracic organs?

Well actually, probably not.  It looks like it was cleaned up by medical folks to try and help save his life.  Thorocotomys in general do not go against the lie of the ribs like that.  Also, if it was a medical intervention, the fat layers would be in line with the incision itself, not scraped back with a jagged edge that doesn't match the cut.

Just based upon the one photo, he probably arrived with a massive open trauma there and the medical staff started cutting back the broken chunks of flesh and bone to try and get better visual and manual access.  The fact that they didn't go much farther than just barely starting the central lines around his left and right subclavians means in all likelyhood he had no blood pressure, had bled out quite a bit, and death was called shortly after arrival.

/Also, this is not how one 'massages' the heart


Ah, that makes sense I guess, if you have any sort of medical knowledge, which I don't.  I was quoting what I heard one of the talking heads on CNN say.
 
2013-04-22 08:51:14 PM
Maybe she's right. Maybe we were too hard on the guy... perhaps if we had showed him some love and some compassion for his cause, he could have turned his life around and been a positive influence on society...

24.media.tumblr.com

NAAAAAH!
 
2013-04-22 09:00:45 PM
ts2.mm.bing.net
 
2013-04-22 09:26:11 PM
That was actually a well thought out essay. I'm really disappointed that so many farkers failed reading comprehension. Her point is that as Americans we must hold ourselves to a higher standard and we should reflect on our actions within the context of our ideals. The one thing that separates us from all of the other countries is our belief in justice and our faith in the correctness of our system.

It is also important to remember the lessons of that last massacre in Boston 1770 where nine of the hated British soldiers were accused of murdering 5 colonists. These men though hated were given a fair trial and represented by the greatest American lawyer of his day.

This is how we do things, this is what's right and if we forgo justice for vengeance we will betray all of the ideals that make us great. Those things that make us Americans.
 
2013-04-22 10:06:42 PM
Not enough force.

One of them is still alive.


for now.
 
2013-04-22 10:25:32 PM
How is getting shot at not a natural consequence of their chosen actions?
 
2013-04-22 10:34:14 PM
i still don't understand why the police shot him in the NECK if they wanted to question him......
 
2013-04-22 10:34:40 PM
I have to wonder if people like this have ever been in an extremely tense, life or death situation. I would bet they don't realize what it takes to deal with a war.
 
2013-04-22 11:28:54 PM
See Ya Next Tuesday
 
2013-04-23 12:37:35 AM
I find it humorous that they shut down an entire city only to come up empty handed.  House to house searches, martial law, the whole shebang.  Then when they allow the people to safely (lol) leave their homes, an observant citizen finds the guy.  Had they not had the lockdown they would have had the guy hours sooner.

But no, it was not excessive at all.

/how do you shoot at a boat that many damn times and still miss SO much.  It boggles the imagination.
 
2013-04-23 12:57:36 AM

Elbarfo: I find it humorous that they shut down an entire city only to come up empty handed.  House to house searches, martial law, the whole shebang.  Then when they allow the people to safely (lol) leave their homes, an observant citizen finds the guy.  Had they not had the lockdown they would have had the guy hours sooner.

But no, it was not excessive at all.

/how do you shoot at a boat that many damn times and still miss SO much.  It boggles the imagination.


I find it surprising that Boston is only 20 square blocks. Here I was thinking Boston was a much larger city. And also I find it remarkable that going door to door and asking if they can search the property is now the definition of "martial law,' which I always understood to mean military patrols on the street and the Army taking over the role of the civil authorities.

Fark is just amazing for teaching you things you never knew before.
 
2013-04-23 01:53:54 AM

ciberido: FlashHarry: so-called "liberal" here. i think the force used was appropriate. the guy was carrying shiatloads of weapons and IEDs.

that being said, he is an AMERICAN CITIZEN and should be tried in a civilian court and afforded all the rights due to him.

Yeah.  It's one thing to use heavy force when you're dealing with someone who's well armed and already killed people.  It's a completely different kettle of fish to deny due process to someone who's lying in a hospital bed under guard.

And it's not even just about "playing nice" or "being fair."  Question Tsarnaev without giving him his Miranda warning first and it's pretty likely a good lawyer will make most of what he says impermissible.  IANAL but I have a feeling this is going to do more harm than good to the case, all concerns about fairness and due process aside.


This isn't some cop show on tv. there are plenty of exigent circumstance where not only it ok to not Mirandize a suspect, it's required to protect the safety of the public.

In your world it wouldn't be proper for the police to ask him if there were explosives or any other suspects hidden in the boat.

The questioning of that suspect was not only legal it was the definition of necessary. You couldn't give a better example in a Crim Law class.
 
2013-04-23 04:27:50 AM
What a stupid person. First off, they're not from Chechnya. Then, because she's disturbed by the pictures means too much force was used? Did she happen to see at the marathon when the streets were painted red?  Did she consider that much of the damage to Tamerlan was done by his brother who ran him over?
 
2013-04-23 09:39:38 AM

slayer199: Really?

I'm usually one to jump all over abuse of force...but in this case, they were wanted for a bombing that killed 3 innocent individuals and wounded or maimed over 100 more.  They killed a cop, they carjacked another individual...and led police on a chase.  They were clearly armed and dangerous.  Terrorism or not, the use of force was in this case was completely justified.


At least the cops didn't shoot up some newpaper delivery ladies and a bunch of other innocent people this time around.
 
2013-04-23 09:44:20 AM

rwfan: I have to admit that when I saw the headline I thought it was going to be about the boat that the younger brother was hiding in.
[riehlworldview.com image 575x714]

I wonder how many holes are in it?  And how many of those shots actually hit IED-bro?  (my guess is 0)


Wonder if the PD is gonna repair that boat, or is the owner just ass-out?
 
2013-04-23 12:25:16 PM
All that police force and it took a citizen to find him.
 
2013-04-23 03:26:47 PM

mark12A: Doesn't surprise me. Colleges in this country have pretty much degenerated into Marxist Indoctrination camps.


You're so cute when you spew stupid shiat.
 
2013-04-23 04:03:57 PM

zedster: Surprise the entirety of her post says something different
http://ruthobrien.org/a-day-of-terror/


We accept difference, as a nation, and we should champion our greatest strength - inclusivity - at these extreme moments if we want the character of the United States not to be judged harshly by the global community.  Once all the adrenaline subsides, I hope we will all be witnesses at the Internal Affairs investigation about undue force.

No it doesn't.
 
2013-04-23 05:03:08 PM

Gyrfalcon: Elbarfo: I find it humorous that they shut down an entire city only to come up empty handed.  House to house searches, martial law, the whole shebang.  Then when they allow the people to safely (lol) leave their homes, an observant citizen finds the guy.  Had they not had the lockdown they would have had the guy hours sooner.

But no, it was not excessive at all.

/how do you shoot at a boat that many damn times and still miss SO much.  It boggles the imagination.

I find it surprising that Boston is only 20 square blocks. Here I was thinking Boston was a much larger city. And also I find it remarkable that going door to door and asking if they can search the property is now the definition of "martial law,' which I always understood to mean military patrols on the street and the Army taking over the role of the civil authorities.

Fark is just amazing for teaching you things you never knew before.


I'm glad you could learn something, as the National Guard was indeed present during all of this.  Nor were the searches in any way voluntary....at least for those who didn't volunteer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrbsUVSVl8&feature=youtu.be

There, learn something else.

If you (and all the others on here who agree) really think this is an appropriate response, then I fear for all of us, and for this country.
 
2013-04-23 07:18:04 PM

Giant Clown Shoe: ciberido: FlashHarry: so-called "liberal" here. i think the force used was appropriate. the guy was carrying shiatloads of weapons and IEDs.

that being said, he is an AMERICAN CITIZEN and should be tried in a civilian court and afforded all the rights due to him.

Yeah.  It's one thing to use heavy force when you're dealing with someone who's well armed and already killed people.  It's a completely different kettle of fish to deny due process to someone who's lying in a hospital bed under guard.

And it's not even just about "playing nice" or "being fair."  Question Tsarnaev without giving him his Miranda warning first and it's pretty likely a good lawyer will make most of what he says impermissible.  IANAL but I have a feeling this is going to do more harm than good to the case, all concerns about fairness and due process aside.

This isn't some cop show on tv.


Next time try putting the insult at the END of your post.  Might sucker more people into reading it under the false assumption that you're trying to hold a reasonable conversation.
 
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