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(Time)   Time asks: Why did the Tsarnaevs let their carjacking victim live? Answer: Terrorists are frequently dumb, like the Palestinian bombers who forgot to account for Daylight Savings Time and blew themselves up before they could deliver the bomb   (swampland.time.com) divider line 330
    More: Followup, Palestinians, Tsarnaev, Mercedes SUV, Tamerlan, Downtown Oklahoma City, World Trade Center bombing, cash machines, home runs  
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12040 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Apr 2013 at 12:13 PM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-22 12:43:29 PM
FTA: How did the Tsarnaev brothers allow the man they carjacked on Thursday night to get away?

The premise of this article is offensive; they're asking the readers to join in on their media derp-fest of presenting this as a movie script, conditioning us for the inevitable made-for-TV movie.
 
2013-04-22 12:43:31 PM

Nana's Vibrator: I'd be certain there are enough photgraphs, videos, and witnesses to every event  that, even without a confession, a fair trial should be simple and therefore should not require any shortcuts or rule bending.

/how do you tell a guy who can't speak that he has the right to remain silent?  It almost sounds like a mean joke.


Given my experience, the photographs and videos are more damning than an outright confession.  Far too many people have been pressured into making a fake one.

For the 'right to remain silent', it's a 'right not to communicate', whether that's by speech, written statement, sign language, or even tapping.

Personally, I wanted both of them to be caught alive, for the evidence value alone - I want the contacts that encouraged the older brother to embark on this course arrested and prosecuted as well.  Or shot by the Russians...
 
2013-04-22 12:44:21 PM

SlothB77: if you are going to brag to someone, it is kinda pointless to brag to them and then kill them immediately after.


You mean like the plot of almost every book, movie and TV murder mystery ever?
 
2013-04-22 12:45:20 PM

derpy:
[i38.tinypic.com image 850x548]
And I agree with you. It's impossible to find an impartial jury in Canton. I think it's impossible to find an impartial jury anywhere in Mississippi. As such a jury here would be as fair as a jury anywhere else. So I decided to deny your request for a change of venue.


In that movie (FANTASTIC film, btw), wasn't the judge pretty much right about that?
 
2013-04-22 12:45:53 PM

wxboy: serial_crusher: The brothers would have needed his ATM pin number to access the cash.

I guess it's ok to call it a "pin number" if you don't capitalize it?

If only they'd written "ATM machine PIN number".


Automated Teller Machine Machine Personal Identification Number Number....

Ok, so one of those fark handles belongs to Greg Nice

/rocks for a fee (fee), not for free (free)
 
2013-04-22 12:45:58 PM

JohnBigBootay: But still - I read the interviews with the younger dc sniper and see how he feels


The younger D.C. sniper was supposedly roped into it, therefore every other younger accomplices always is?

vernonFL: Actually according the some religions, everyone does.


According to the Constitution, that's irrelevant.

scottydoesntknow: I'm not saying he knew who they were, I'm saying they THOUGHT he knew who they were. They didn't shoot him because he was a white guy, they shot him because he was a cop, and odds are he had seen their mugs plastered all over the place and would connect the dots.


Except that they were not in his line of sight, and they specifically walked up to him and killed him in absolute cold blood.
 
2013-04-22 12:46:53 PM
I'd imagine murdering someone at close range, up-close and personal, as in during a carjacking probably takes a considerable degree of courage.  It's not like pressing a button several yards from your victim(s).
 
2013-04-22 12:47:54 PM

Voiceofreason01: you sounds scared. Better kill that scary brown kid quick. Hell why don't you go ahead and skip the trial....it's just a waste of time anyway.


So accuse him of being a racist and wanting to remove his rights AND call him a coward.

You haven't shot your credibility enough in this thread, might as well keep firing until it just goes click click click
 
2013-04-22 12:48:01 PM

nmemkha: A glimmer of humanity?


One of us has a funny view of humanity.
 
2013-04-22 12:48:05 PM
After blowing up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City in April 1995, Timothy McVeigh was caught after being pulled him over for driving without a license plate, always a good way to attract police notice quickly.

-----

After being pulled him over????

Hire a new editor times
 
2013-04-22 12:48:07 PM
Really?? I'm as bleeding heart as they come, but people defending these scum are unbelievable. They are nothing but cold blooded killers. He deserves to face the court, and hopefully get the needle. End of story.
 
2013-04-22 12:48:19 PM

He_Hate_Me: SirGunslinger: I'm just thankful they took their bombing lessons from the Taliban as opposed to the IRA otherwise it could have been a lot worse.

The IRA would frequently call up a location they were about to bomb so that innocent civilians could be evacuated.


Aaah, good old days
 
2013-04-22 12:48:20 PM

Tatsuma: bhcompy: The 19 year old can use this excuse, also the "following his older brother/mentor" excuse.

No he can't. Read the post I wrote about this.


Sure, he can use the excuse.  It's an affirmative defense and it doesn't pardon his crimes, only lessens the blame from 50/50 to <50, just like any coercion.  Proving an affirmative defense can be a difficult thing, and it's just an excuse until he proves it.

And, scientifically, 19 year old brains are still developing and hormones of that age interfere with thought processes(a big reason why very young adult males make ideal soldiers).  Again, this doesn't pardon the actions and they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, but it contributes to the decision making processes and helps with understanding of the "why" so that we can do whatever we can to try and prevent these things from happening in the future.
 
2013-04-22 12:48:27 PM

Tatsuma: scottydoesntknow: Do you have a source for that? I haven't heard anything from the FBI.

That's what they said in a press conference, that they had planned this and wanted to create this whole situation.


All I'm finding is that they had planned to carry out more attacks, which would go in line with them returning to everyday activities so as not to look suspicious. You can't really conduct more planned attacks when there's a nationwide manhunt and everyone knows exactly what you look like.

They had no idea that there were so many cameras watching them and it all fell to shiat the second it went national.
 
2013-04-22 12:48:53 PM

EdNortonsTwin: I'd imagine murdering someone at close range, up-close and personal, as in during a carjacking probably takes a considerable degree of courage.  It's not like pressing a button several yards from your victim(s).


That's exactly what they did to the cop. That's exactly what they did to the victims when they put down the bombs right next to them while looking them in the eyes.

The reason they didn't kill the driver is because he was not an American and they only wanted to kill Americans
 
2013-04-22 12:48:59 PM

Voiceofreason01: Uncle Pooky:
maybe you're a confused kid. Making explosive devices designed to cause a lot of damage and placing them in a heavily populated area = bloodthirsty. shooting and throwing grenades at cops = bloodthirsty. trying to run over cops = bloodthirsty. shooting a security guard in the head = bloodthirsty killer.

you sounds scared. Better kill that scary brown kid quick. Hell why don't you go ahead and skip the trial....it's just a waste of time anyway.


Funny how I apparently sound "scared", but you're the one making huge leaps of logic and introducing points that I don't even remotely hint at - while simultaneously making no attempt to refute anything I actually said (which is admittedly hard to do, since it all actually did happen).
 
2013-04-22 12:50:28 PM

OtherLittleGuy: I'll buy this.

Consider that the bombs went off at 2:50. If they thought the race was going to start at 12 noon, they would have expected the premiere racers to come through, hence more of a crowd and a splash.


I'd heard another take on this that made a little more sense to me. Last year's marathon was run in extremely hot conditions, so most of the runners took it easy on the course and finished a lot later than they normally would have. This year's race was in fairly normal conditions for this area so the times were a little quicker, meaning more people would have left the area earlier in the day as the "top" runners came in.
 
2013-04-22 12:51:08 PM

Tommy Moo: Voiceofreason01: doglover:
I'm not a killer. Those "kids" on the other hand put a shrapnel bomb next to a child in a crowd at a public event then shot at cops and killed each-other. They're very much bloodthirsty killers, to the tee.

So maybe we should hold the one still alive without trial so that he can be beaten by the police and sexually assaulted in jail. Which is what a lot of people(even some who should know better) have been suggesting. Sounds like justice to me. Something terrible happened and this kid should face the consequences but we also need to respect his rights and give him a fair trial. Seeking revenge in this situation is NOT OK.

He's not a suspect. There's no ambiguity here. Hang him upside down and rip his fingernails off and then shoot him in the back of the head with no trial for all I care. You can hug and kiss his corpse if you like.


You FAIL at being an American. The only difference between our nation and every other in the world is the document by which it was founded. That document clearly lays out what accused criminals deserve when facing charges by the state.

People like you who easily cast that aside for convenience and / or revenge do more harm to this once great nation compared to all terrorists combined. Instead of steadfastly holding to our convictions as a nation in the face of adversity the majority cowers and demands its pound of flesh.
 
2013-04-22 12:51:30 PM

zvoidx: FTA: How did the Tsarnaev brothers allow the man they carjacked on Thursday night to get away?

The premise of this article is offensive; they're asking the readers to join in on their media derp-fest of presenting this as a movie script, conditioning us for the inevitable made-for-TV movie.


According to many in the right wing blogosphere (and my FWD FWD FWD FWD FWDing cousin), it was a bumper sticker that spared the car-jacking victims.

content.clearchannel.com

Yes, people believe this crap.
 
2013-04-22 12:52:17 PM

Tommy Moo: Voiceofreason01: doglover:
I'm not a killer. Those "kids" on the other hand put a shrapnel bomb next to a child in a crowd at a public event then shot at cops and killed each-other. They're very much bloodthirsty killers, to the tee.

So maybe we should hold the one still alive without trial so that he can be beaten by the police and sexually assaulted in jail. Which is what a lot of people(even some who should know better) have been suggesting. Sounds like justice to me. Something terrible happened and this kid should face the consequences but we also need to respect his rights and give him a fair trial. Seeking revenge in this situation is NOT OK.

He's not a suspect. There's no ambiguity here. Hang him upside down and rip his fingernails off and then shoot him in the back of the head with no trial for all I care. You can hug and kiss his corpse if you like.


We're all mad too, but there's seriously no need to go full retard on these guys.
 
2013-04-22 12:52:38 PM

vernonFL: Tatsuma: not everyone deserves mercy.

Actually according the some religions, everyone does.


Are you telling me the god of Abraham and Tatsuma believes in mercy?
 
2013-04-22 12:53:01 PM

Tatsuma: The younger D.C. sniper was supposedly roped into it, therefore every other younger accomplices always is?


When you completely ignore just about every other word I wrote it makes for a really unsatisfying discussion. I said nothing of the sort and in fact said several things to the contrary.
 
2013-04-22 12:53:12 PM
Where do people get the idea he isn't going to get a fair trial?  Where?!  They delayed giving him some rights in the interest of public safety as provided by the law.  That's it!

He'll get his trial.  It's kind of funny how the people who seem offended that they aren't getting every bit of evidence released publicly are the same ones who are concerned he won't get a fair trial. Let's assume that 99% of the evidence hasn't been released.  That's the evidence that the prosecuters have considered.  I'm quite sure they aren't going to take any liberties and risk letting him off on a technicality.  Thus, he'll get his fair trial.
 
2013-04-22 12:54:28 PM

JarynFrostwing: serial_crusher: The brothers would have needed his ATM pin number to access the cash.

I guess it's ok to call it a "pin number" if you don't capitalize it?

Everyone knows you need the PIN Number to use the ATM Machine.


There was once a report in The Onion about some guy who tried to impress his date by selecting the "Spanish" option while making a cash withdrawal.  The farkin' ATM confiscated his card. Hyuck, yuck

/still thinks about that when presented with the option

//tempted to try Spanish, but never quite enough
 
2013-04-22 12:54:56 PM
You are all equally pathetic...Jews, Muslims and of course the equally blood thirsty Christians.

All of you personify what is wrong with the Human race.

What else would one expect from simple minds...religion
 
2013-04-22 12:54:57 PM

scottydoesntknow: All I'm finding is that they had planned to carry out more attacks, which would go in line with them returning to everyday activities so as not to look suspicious. You can't really conduct more planned attacks when there's a nationwide manhunt and everyone knows exactly what you look like.

They had no idea that there were so many cameras watching them and it all fell to shiat the second it went national.


Here's how they basically wanted it to come down, all the way in terms of code.

[1] if bombing goes well then
verify if police unto us
if positive goto 4 if negative goto 2
[2] return to normal life then
plan a new bombing then goto 1
[3] if cover is blown
go out in a blaze of glory goto 4
[4] VIRGINS
bone them
 
2013-04-22 12:55:05 PM
I'm curious about how this guy is being treated by the nurses and such in the hospital.

Do the investigators take the nurses aside and say "Try to hide your contempt for this asshole. Make him feel like he's among people who might understand his viewpoint"?

Do they say "Don't talk to him at all. Don't even acknowledge his existence as you're sullenly adjusting his IV" so one of the interrogators can play the "Good Cop" in order to get him to talk/write?

Most likely, the nurses just rise above it and treat him like any other patient. Because they're professionals. But I do wonder what mind-games the investigators might be playing with him at this point.
 
2013-04-22 12:55:34 PM

bhcompy: vernonFL: Tatsuma: not everyone deserves mercy.

Actually according the some religions, everyone does.

Are you telling me the god of Abraham and Tatsuma believes in mercy?


But the god of Abraham and Tatsuma is the same god as these kids believed in, so we've come full circle, people!
 
2013-04-22 12:56:15 PM

Babbs: Really?? I'm as bleeding heart as they come, but people defending these scum are unbelievable. They are nothing but cold blooded killers. He deserves to face the court, and hopefully get the needle. End of story.


I haven't seen anyone 'defending' anyone. There's nothing wrong with discussing motivations and in fact it's exactly what should be done. They (he) should be vigorously prosecuted and I have literally not seen a single person arguing otherwise.
 
2013-04-22 12:56:30 PM
Don't forget the the shoe bomber who's bomb failed to go off (win) because he had sweaty feet. Thanks to this ahole we all have to take our shoes off now at the airport.
 
2013-04-22 12:56:49 PM

bhcompy: Sure, he can use the excuse. It's an affirmative defense and it doesn't pardon his crimes, only lessens the blame from 50/50 to <50, just like any coercion. Proving an affirmative defense can be a difficult thing, and it's just an excuse until he proves it.

And, scientifically, 19 year old brains are still developing and hormones of that age interfere with thought processes(a big reason why very young adult males make ideal soldiers). Again, this doesn't pardon the actions and they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, but it contributes to the decision making processes and helps with understanding of the "why" so that we can do whatever we can to try and prevent these things from happening in the future.


Poor boy, let's just give him a couple of years in prison and then rehabilitate him, because clearly SCIENCE says he never would have done that if he had only live to grow and become 26 year o-
 
2013-04-22 12:56:52 PM

Tatsuma: Mr. Coffee Nerves: apparently had no exit strategy whatsoever sums up their cunning criminal minds.

You really don't understand Islamic terrorism if you think 'exit strategy' plays any part in it whatsoever.

Voiceofreason01: Oh for farks sake, this is going green?

That'll teach you to kneejerk on TF thinking it's not going to go public

I_Am_Weasel: I'm guessing that they weren't behaving entirely rational.

Everything that they did was rational. Evil? Yes. Rational? Absolutely.

They wanted to create a confrontation with the cops and go out in a blaze of glory in order to kill more people. I don't understand what's not rational with this frame of mind if you're an Islamic terrorist.




Except that wasn't part of the original plan. If they wanted to do that, they would've bombed the start of the race, then did a happy dance yelling "Hey look at me! I did it!" as police swarmed the area.

The cop confrontation thing only happened when they realized that their carefully crafted plan "to blow random people up" (which, really, is the easy part of the plan), didn't include "and get away with it" beyond trying to resume life as normal. They had absolutely no intent on confronting anybody. At least until it became obvious that they were toast.

A true "terrorist" (for whatever you want that to mean), does have an exit strategy (along with a way or means to get out their message); whether it's as simple as "suicide mission", or something a little more complicated involving passports and a dufflebag full of cash or some friendly operatives who you can use as safehouses.

I read someone that equated these idiots with arsonists; they do something that causes damage, but then sort of hang around to watch the results. I think that is a good comparison in this case, from everything I've read so far.

Regardless, it obviously doesn't bring back anyone who is dead or injured.
 
2013-04-22 12:57:07 PM

bhcompy: vernonFL: Tatsuma: not everyone deserves mercy.

Actually according the some religions, everyone does.

Are you telling me the god of Abraham and Tatsuma believes in mercy?


And the Protestant G-D believes in eternal torment after death. Is that mercy?
 
2013-04-22 12:57:29 PM

Tatsuma: Voiceofreason01: If I start an Israel thread how long will it take you to start calling for the deaths of Palestinians?

So when someone calls your post for being simply wrong, you decide doubling down on idiocy is the way to go? Good job, champ.

Voiceofreason01: /in a civilized world there is never a reason not to err on the side of mercy.

He who is merciful to the cruel will one day be cruel to those who deserve mercy.


Everyone is deserving of fair and equal treatment under the law, not everyone deserves mercy.


mercy


Man, you must roll your eyes when you watch Dr. Who.
 
2013-04-22 12:58:22 PM

Tatsuma: Voiceofreason01: or maybe they were confused and angry kids and not the blood thirsty killers that most of you are portraying them as.

When you look at an 8 year old child, smile, and then put down a bomb next to him, you stop being a 'confused and angry kid'.

When the bomb blew up, and that child lay dead, his sister hurt beside him, his mother on the ground unresponsive and people with lost limbs all over, he just stared and looked at the damage before running away. When you do that, you stop being a 'confused and angry kid'.

When he came back home, he mocked the victims of the bombing on twitter, the next day he showed up to class very chipper, he went to the gym and to a party. When you do that after the crimes you did, you stop being a 'confused and angry kid'.

After having a few days of fun, they walked to a cop and killed him in cold blood. After carjacking someone,  holding him hostage and taking his cash. Then they engaged in a firefight with coppers and he drove over his brother trying to get away. When you do that after the all the crimes you've done so far, you stop being 'a confused and angry kid'


Stop acting like they are farking victims in all this, people.


Tatsuma on my side? It's more likely than you think!

But honestly, we're dealing with mass murderers here. I don't care their age, religion, ethnicity, who their parents are, who their friends are, I want justice.

Pure, unadulterated, justice.

/Bostonian
 
2013-04-22 12:58:32 PM
Mike: In thirteen years with the bureau I've discovered that there's no amount of money, man-power or knowledge that can equal the person you're looking for being stupid.Bartlet: God, well, some of the stupidest criminals in the world are working right here in America. I've always been very proud of that.
 
2013-04-22 12:58:52 PM
Trapper439:

Do they say "Don't talk to him at all. Don't even acknowledge his existence as you're sullenly adjusting his IV" so one of the interrogators can play the "Good Cop" in order to get him to talk/write?


I would assume they did give that instruction, but not for the reason you suggest. More of a safeguard thing. They want this case as untainted as it can possibly be.
 
2013-04-22 12:59:08 PM

Jument: I am frequently amazed at how stupid most "bad guys" seem to be. We're freakin' lucky for that. If the bad guys were serious we would have an Oklahoma City every week and we've be royally farked.


Yep.  That's why competent murderers (serial killers) are so much more frightening.  Most people who are messed up enough to kill (and make no mistake about it, willingness to murder people is a mental defect) also have enough other mental problems on top of that.  Many are just morons/dumb asses.

Voiceofreason01: or maybe they were confused and angry kids and not the blood thirsty killers that most of you are portraying them as.

/I find this bloodlust from the media, the public and (more worryingly) the government.....distastful


There can be something to be said of this.  They're messed up either way, but it's one thing to plant a bomb and walk away and another to point a gun and kill someone a few feet from you.
 
2013-04-22 12:59:17 PM
I used to support the death penalty for capital offenses until I realized that solitary confinement for the rest of your natural life is a far worse punishment.  I'm talking about 4 walls, a cot, and a crapper.  Nothing else.  No TV, no music, no books, no contact with anyone other than the guards who trot you into a slightly larger cell for exercise once a day.  Preferably fed nothing but nutraloaf and water.

That would be fair.
 
2013-04-22 12:59:35 PM

Tatsuma: No, the Boston PD said they were unrelated, the robbery was by a lone white male, 5'11" 200 pounds wearing all black from the waist up with some kind of head covering


Imagine how that robber must feel.
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-22 12:59:39 PM

JohnBigBootay: When you completely ignore just about every other word I wrote it makes for a really unsatisfying discussion. I said nothing of the sort and in fact said several things to the contrary.


I will admit that when I got to the 'see how he feels', I stopped reading and rolled my eyes, thinking you were going to defend him like a few people in this thread about being roped into it and really being his big brother's fault

Sincere apologies about that, it wasn't fair of me not to read the rest of your post but answer anyway. Really sorry about that, not something I usually do and won't do it again
 
2013-04-22 01:00:23 PM
MBK:

Give him a fair trial.  Show the rest of the world that no matter how evil you are, you are not greater than the system.

They arrested Dick Cheney?
 
2013-04-22 01:01:01 PM

Tatsuma: Poor boy, let's just give him a couple of years in prison and then rehabilitate him, because clearly SCIENCE says he never would have done that if he had only live to grow and become 26 year o-


He didn't say that. Boy, you're getting a little derpy all the sudden. Gee, I wonder how the IDF have become so effective at spotting terrorists. It's almost like they have engaged heavily in the kind of analysis bhcompy is talking about...
 
2013-04-22 01:01:49 PM
Seems the younger brother was trippin' all the way. I'd really like him to just spill the beans on what the whole thing was about. The finish line was targeted because there would be more casualties, but why kill the cop? Seems they were just running around without a plan.
 
2013-04-22 01:02:03 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: Tommy Moo: Voiceofreason01: doglover:
I'm not a killer. Those "kids" on the other hand put a shrapnel bomb next to a child in a crowd at a public event then shot at cops and killed each-other. They're very much bloodthirsty killers, to the tee.

So maybe we should hold the one still alive without trial so that he can be beaten by the police and sexually assaulted in jail. Which is what a lot of people(even some who should know better) have been suggesting. Sounds like justice to me. Something terrible happened and this kid should face the consequences but we also need to respect his rights and give him a fair trial. Seeking revenge in this situation is NOT OK.

He's not a suspect. There's no ambiguity here. Hang him upside down and rip his fingernails off and then shoot him in the back of the head with no trial for all I care. You can hug and kiss his corpse if you like.

We're all mad too, but there's seriously no need to go full retard on these guys.


Are you? It sure doesn't seem like it. It seems like there is an overabundance of concern for this shiatbird, to the point where a great number of people have forgotten to be mad at him. One person in this thread just told me that I'm a worse person than he is, because he's a poor, poor victim and I'm a mean, judgmental jerk.
 
2013-04-22 01:02:08 PM
 
2013-04-22 01:02:14 PM

Voiceofreason01: or maybe they were confused and angry kids and not the blood thirsty killers that most of you are portraying them as.

/I find this bloodlust from the media, the public and (more worryingly) the government.....distastful


bbsimg.ngfiles.com
 
2013-04-22 01:02:30 PM

Voiceofreason01: Tatsuma:Everyone is deserving of fair and equal treatment under the law, not everyone deserves mercy.

but I don't see you being very quick to call out the posts that are essentially calling for this boy to be lynched.


That's ok, I never see you call out Palestinians for killing anyone, so it all evens out.

/Since you wanted to bring that into the thread anyway
 
2013-04-22 01:02:32 PM

Evil Mackerel: MBK:

Give him a fair trial.  Show the rest of the world that no matter how evil you are, you are not greater than the system.

They arrested Dick Cheney?


Nah, he only shot one person. You get a free pass for one.
 
2013-04-22 01:03:02 PM

snowshovel: Except that wasn't part of the original plan. If they wanted to do that, they would've bombed the start of the race, then did a happy dance yelling "Hey look at me! I did it!" as police swarmed the area.

The cop confrontation thing only happened when they realized that their carefully crafted plan "to blow random people up" (which, really, is the easy part of the plan), didn't include "and get away with it" beyond trying to resume life as normal. They had absolutely no intent on confronting anybody. At least until it became obvious that they were toast.


I wrote the 'code' of what they planned to do earlier, basically more and more bombings until the FBI would be closing in, and then go out in a blaze of glory. They wanted to kill as many people as they could before they died.

BafflerMeal: Man, you must roll your eyes when you watch Dr. Who.


I don't. Still roll my eyes though
 
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