If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Press-Enterprise (So. Cal))   California city threatens to sue red light camera company for tracking how many cars run red lights   (pe.com) divider line 59
    More: Strange, Murrieta, red light cameras, tracking  
•       •       •

6595 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Apr 2013 at 1:35 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



59 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-04-21 11:16:10 AM  

" American Traffic Solutions, and another red light camera company, unsuccessfully backed a lawsuit challenging the petition drive, and then again challenged the ballot measure after voters approved banning the cameras by 57 percent.

This month, a Riverside County Superior Court judge ruled that the voters do not have the right to dictate traffic management."



Wow, the establishment really doesn't like voters there, do they?

 
2013-04-21 11:45:23 AM  
I love how the council wants to overturn the vote to give these suckers more money when they breached the last contract. There must be serious bribe $.¢ going on here, in the form of campaign contributions.
 
2013-04-21 11:48:28 AM  

skinink: " American Traffic Solutions, and another red light camera company, unsuccessfully backed a lawsuit challenging the petition drive, and then again challenged the ballot measure after voters approved banning the cameras by 57 percent.

This month, a Riverside County Superior Court judge ruled that the voters do not have the right to dictate traffic management."

Wow, the establishment really doesn't like voters there, do they?


Or anywhere else.
 
2013-04-21 12:13:55 PM  

skinink: " American Traffic Solutions, and another red light camera company, unsuccessfully backed a lawsuit challenging the petition drive, and then again challenged the ballot measure after voters approved banning the cameras by 57 percent.

This month, a Riverside County Superior Court judge ruled that the voters do not have the right to dictate traffic management."

Wow, the establishment really doesn't like voters there, do they?


The will of the people causes them too many problems.
 
2013-04-21 12:35:56 PM  
This isn't a real red-light camera thread.  This is government sanctioned spying.  Just like CISPA.
 
2013-04-21 01:33:35 PM  
FTFA:...the City Council ordered the Arizona company to shut off the data-collecting cameras.

....American Traffic Solutions left the sensors inside the cameras active for months to collect the data without the city's knowledge.


The city may not legally have the right to remove the company's equipment on their own or shut them off, but they can damn sure cover the damn things so that they can't keep recording.  Grab some black trash bags, duct tape, and a cherry picker.  Problem solved.
 
2013-04-21 01:40:05 PM  
Supposedly San Diego shut all of theirs off recently.
 
2013-04-21 01:42:57 PM  
why is the company continuing to collect data such a bad thing? I'm not saying its right, I'm saying i dont understand whats so bad about it. They cant do anything with it, its just data collection.
 
2013-04-21 01:43:20 PM  

penthesilea: FTFA:...the City Council ordered the Arizona company to shut off the data-collecting cameras.

....American Traffic Solutions left the sensors inside the cameras active for months to collect the data without the city's knowledge.

The city may not legally have the right to remove the company's equipment on their own or shut them off, but they can damn sure cover the damn things so that they can't keep recording.  Grab some black trash bags, duct tape, and a cherry picker.  Problem solved.


Here is the proper solution to traffic cameras...

cache.gizmodo.com

Questions?
 
2013-04-21 01:46:42 PM  
One of the few good things about the laws of Virginia is that the red light tickets I get in the mail go directly in the trash.

/not a careless driver, there just happen to be cameras around a major intersection I go through at least twice daily, and they tag you if you enter the intersection on yellow
 
2013-04-21 01:49:47 PM  
and by "run red lights", they mean "barely miss the yellow".  The cameras dont actually catch people who blatantly blow through the light in the middle of the cycle, only during the light changes.
 
2013-04-21 01:50:21 PM  

earthworm2.0: They cant do anything with it, its just data collection.


They can sell it. I'm sure there are a LOT of entities who would be interested in an identifiable, time stamped list of peoples movements.
Lawyers, for instance.
 
2013-04-21 01:58:48 PM  
FTFA: "I'd like to remind the council members that you are representatives of the people," resident Jackie Fenaroli said. "You should honor the people's wishes."

That's so cute
 
2013-04-21 01:59:49 PM  

earthworm2.0: why is the company continuing to collect data such a bad thing? I'm not saying its right, I'm saying i dont understand whats so bad about it. They cant do anything with it, its just data collection.


Insurance companies would love to see this data to adjust local rates. They prove x percent of traffic drives unsafe and everyone's rates goes up.
 
2013-04-21 02:05:11 PM  
I just had an evil thought... Private red light camera scam. Just have to include "This is a final judgement and there is no appeal, submit payment in a timely fashion to:" type language. Like they have on L.A. parking tickets.
 
2013-04-21 02:05:11 PM  
In unrelated news, local gun enthusiasts invent a new skills course involving moving cars and stationary targets.

It's a win win for the local city since time spent at the police firing range leaves the officer out of service and it's a real boost to morale.

And it's about as close to a medieval joust quintain practice as you can get.
www.roundtableprod.com
 
2013-04-21 02:06:40 PM  
This whole article doesn't make sense. So the City is angry at the company b/c they didn't turn off their electronics, but the City has told the voters to go frell themselves when the voters asked them to turn off the cameras, but the company has turned off the cameras and not the other electronics and that's the confusion, and so the company must have illegally complied with the voters even though a judge said the voters can go frell themselves, and... what?
 
2013-04-21 02:10:22 PM  
The thing about some of these red light cameras is they record a video and still captures is what the victim sees. Allows for further interpretation of a fraudulent ticket in court(other conditions caused you to violate red light).

Leaving them on with 'automated license plate recognition' can generate an interesting data stream. Providing the company still has full access to the license plate database to get the owners name with it.

Police cars now have automated license plate recognition cameras that work in real time to identify vehicles/owners that are wanted. The database does store every plate it sees for an indeterminate amount of time. Be careful on your alibi for an unrelated court case, as they may access your vehicles location(violation of privacy, even in a public driving space) and you trying to say that you lent it out to another. If no picture of driver taken by the ALPR, then you are mostly good.
 
2013-04-21 02:11:04 PM  

titwrench: Supposedly San Diego shut all of theirs off recently.


Not only shut them off, but most of them are either physically gone or have hoods over them.

The 'burbs like Del Mar still have them.
 
2013-04-21 02:13:01 PM  
Drivers who whine about traffic cameras are usually terrible drivers, who think they're unique and special snowflakes, who have an innate sense of which traffic laws are unnecessary.


They're usually the same people who scream at bicyclists running red lights. Just after they went 60 in a 30 zone.


Luckily we're only a few decades away from when cars automtically are locked from exceeding the speed limit in an area.
 
2013-04-21 02:16:49 PM  

sheep snorter: The thing about some of these red light cameras is they record a video and still captures is what the victim sees. Allows for further interpretation of a fraudulent ticket in court(other conditions caused you to violate red light).

Leaving them on with 'automated license plate recognition' can generate an interesting data stream. Providing the company still has full access to the license plate database to get the owners name with it.

Police cars now have automated license plate recognition cameras that work in real time to identify vehicles/owners that are wanted. The database does store every plate it sees for an indeterminate amount of time. Be careful on your alibi for an unrelated court case, as they may access your vehicles location(violation of privacy, even in a public driving space) and you trying to say that you lent it out to another. If no picture of driver taken by the ALPR, then you are mostly good.


The plate recognition software I've seen police use cross reference the plate it sees with a database of known stolen vehicles or other flags, not to see where everyone's been everywhere all the time. I'm sure that's coming, probably with the current hardware, but I'm not aware of any police forces using it that way.
 
2013-04-21 02:18:37 PM  
Put in a machine to do a man's work. Decision making out the window.

But then again how many men did it take two day's to find one bomber?

I wonder what police work has come to.
 
2013-04-21 02:19:44 PM  

Bungles: Drivers who whine about traffic cameras are usually terrible drivers, who think they're unique and special snowflakes, who have an innate sense of which traffic laws are unnecessary.

They're usually the same people who scream at bicyclists running red lights. Just after they went 60 in a 30 zone.

Luckily we're only a few decades away from when cars automtically are locked from exceeding the speed limit in an area.


Got any other straw men you'd like to throw out there?
 
2013-04-21 02:21:33 PM  

Bungles: Drivers who whine about traffic cameras are usually terrible drivers, who think they're unique and special snowflakes, who have an innate sense of which traffic laws are unnecessary.


They're usually the same people who scream at bicyclists running red lights. Just after they went 60 in a 30 zone.


Luckily we're only a few decades away from when cars automtically are locked from exceeding the speed limit in an area.


You should hook quite a few with that nonsense. Good troll.
 
2013-04-21 02:24:49 PM  

earthworm2.0: why is the company continuing to collect data such a bad thing? I'm not saying its right, I'm saying i dont understand whats so bad about it. They cant do anything with it, its just data collection.



They're just collecting data in the same way that Facebook "just collects data".  The license plate numbers of the cars, where they go, how often, and for what duration is all in the data.  I'm sure that they already routinely sell that information.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-04-21 02:26:34 PM  
The plate recognition software I've seen police use cross reference the plate it sees with a database of known stolen vehicles or other flags, not to see where everyone's been everywhere all the time.

In Massachusetts they keep records of all plates scanned so they can go back and see where people were or who was there. A bill filed this session would require tracking records to be deleted within 48 hours unless there is a request for preservation.
 
2013-04-21 02:36:59 PM  

Stone Meadow: Bungles: Drivers who whine about traffic cameras are usually terrible drivers, who think they're unique and special snowflakes, who have an innate sense of which traffic laws are unnecessary.

They're usually the same people who scream at bicyclists running red lights. Just after they went 60 in a 30 zone.

Luckily we're only a few decades away from when cars automtically are locked from exceeding the speed limit in an area.

Got any other straw men you'd like to throw out there?


It would be a strawman if it weren't also true.
 
2013-04-21 02:37:32 PM  
American Traffic Solutions  AKA: Homeland Security Surveillance Division
 
2013-04-21 02:46:56 PM  

Bungles: Stone Meadow: Bungles: Drivers who whine about traffic cameras are usually terrible drivers, who think they're unique and special snowflakes, who have an innate sense of which traffic laws are unnecessary.

They're usually the same people who scream at bicyclists running red lights. Just after they went 60 in a 30 zone.

Luckily we're only a few decades away from when cars automtically are locked from exceeding the speed limit in an area.

Got any other straw men you'd like to throw out there?

It would be a strawman if it weren't also true.


LOL...

i235.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-21 02:52:26 PM  
We had a field  trip, back in  school, to a red light. The project was to record traffic violations, as if we knew what they really were. Only now do I realize that it was all just a scheme, a greater plot in part of my teacher, to use us innocent children as pawns to compile data. I'm ashamed of my involvement and hope society can forgive me.
 
2013-04-21 02:54:31 PM  

earthworm2.0: why is the company continuing to collect data such a bad thing? I'm not saying its right, I'm saying i dont understand whats so bad about it. They cant do anything with it, its just data collection.


if it were a person, standing on the corner counting, it would be 100% legal.
given that they are electronically doing the same thing? and it is not the government and they are not even taking pictures?
meh, I am totally ok with this

I keep thinking about setting up my camera looking out the window and collecting data
alas, I am on the 20th floor
 
2013-04-21 03:00:54 PM  

make me some tea: skinink: " American Traffic Solutions, and another red light camera company, unsuccessfully backed a lawsuit challenging the petition drive, and then again challenged the ballot measure after voters approved banning the cameras by 57 percent.

This month, a Riverside County Superior Court judge ruled that the voters do not have the right to dictate traffic management."

Wow, the establishment really doesn't like voters there, do they?

The will of the people causes them too many problems.


It always has. California is a disaster because of the Prop system. Funny how you can get anything passed statewide no matter how destructive it is, but at the local level the voters can't pass anything. What a bass-ackward state. But, it's the way the voters want it to be. You get the government you want, and, ultimately, deserve.
 
2013-04-21 03:27:45 PM  
Ah, Riverside County government. After having lived and worked there, I can state with authority that they are complete assholes.

The only statistics they care about from red light cameras involve the amount of cash generated, not anything to do with safety.
 
2013-04-21 03:28:09 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: It always has. California is a disaster because of the Prop system. Funny how you can get anything passed statewide no matter how destructive it is, but at the local level the voters can't pass anything. What a bass-ackward state. But, it's the way the voters want it to be. You get the government you want, and, ultimately, deserve.


THIS
They vote for new measures, but dont include new revenue to pay for the measures.
This would all be fixed if they had automatic increases to income taxes and property taxes to pay for a balanced budget.
ROFL
 
2013-04-21 03:53:31 PM  

Bungles: Drivers who whine about traffic cameras are usually terrible drivers, who think they're unique and special snowflakes, who have an innate sense of which traffic laws are unnecessary.

They're usually the same people who scream at bicyclists running red lights. Just after they went 60 in a 30 zone.

Luckily we're only a few decades away from when cars automtically are locked from exceeding the speed limit in an area.



You are listening to a machine! Do the world a favor and don't act like one.
 
2013-04-21 04:09:12 PM  
It would be nice to see Anonymous going after companies like these asshats.
 
2013-04-21 04:15:07 PM  

m053486: One of the few good things about the laws of Virginia is that the red light tickets I get in the mail go directly in the trash.

/not a careless driver, there just happen to be cameras around a major intersection I go through at least twice daily, and they tag you if you enter the intersection on yellow


I don't believe you. Yellow means you should stop if you can safely stop. Obviously if the light turns yellow when you're 5 feet from the intersection, you can't stop, but I see way too many people run red lights.

You're an accident waiting to happen.
 
2013-04-21 04:47:26 PM  

SoundOfOneHandWanking: It would be nice to see Anonymous going after companies like these asshats.


why?
anonymous does real stuff
these guys might not have actually broken a law
they are not collecting personal data on anyone
they are not tracking movement or

but they are counting how many times a red light is run
FFS, their data could actually be used to save lives and greatly improve safety

and you have a problem why??
LOLOLOL
 
2013-04-21 04:57:54 PM  
namatad: ...their data could actually be used to save lives and greatly improve safety

Show us one...JUST ONE instance of that ever happening. *Crickets*

Look, this company exits for one reason...to make money, and they aren't giving away shiat for free, much less valuable information. The ONLY reason they left the cameras on was that they hoped to reactivate their contract with the city, whereupon they could have turned in all the violations they had gathered in the meantime. Why else do you think they sued the voters, and got a judge to rule the voters couldn't overrule the contract?

Hopefully the voters will convince the Board to finally cancel the contract. Nothing like the threat of getting voted out of office to get them to see the light.
 
2013-04-21 05:34:23 PM  

Stone Meadow: namatad: ...their data could actually be used to save lives and greatly improve safety

Show us one...JUST ONE instance of that ever happening. *Crickets*

Look, this company exits for one reason...to make money, and they aren't giving away shiat for free, much less valuable information. The ONLY reason they left the cameras on was that they hoped to reactivate their contract with the city, whereupon they could have turned in all the violations they had gathered in the meantime. Why else do you think they sued the voters, and got a judge to rule the voters couldn't overrule the contract?

Hopefully the voters will convince the Board to finally cancel the contract. Nothing like the threat of getting voted out of office to get them to see the light.


of COURSE the company exists to make money
DUH
but they are making money by stopping, or attempting to stop people from committing vehicular manslaughter by running red lights

so yah
better yet
absolutely NOTHING that the company is doing interferes with anyone's privacy ...
 
2013-04-21 05:37:35 PM  
But we want a database of all lawful gun purchases and that is perfectly ok?
 
2013-04-21 05:46:02 PM  
The court rulings against the citizens' initiative make a little more sense now that I've found this.

State of California law delegates its authority to regulate traffic to local governments, which act as agents of the State.  Local voters cannot overturn state law.

Not the same as "local voters cannot overrule their local governments."
 
2013-04-21 06:36:58 PM  

namatad: Stone Meadow: namatad: ...their data could actually be used to save lives and greatly improve safety

Show us one...JUST ONE instance of that ever happening. *Crickets*

...

of COURSE the company exists to make money
DUH
but they are making money by stopping, or attempting to stop people from committing vehicular manslaughter by running red lights

so yah
better yet
absolutely NOTHING that the company is doing interferes with anyone's privacy ...


So, you still have nothing to say about their info being used to improve traffic safety, eh?
 
2013-04-21 06:51:15 PM  

Stone Meadow: So, you still have nothing to say about their info being used to improve traffic safety, eh?


That's a myth. Red light cameras do not improve safety, they generate money.

"Yet Doherty's argument goes deeper - to the mixed bag of statistical analysis on the public benefit of the cameras. Studies have gone both ways, but the most relevant one for New Jersey was released last November, based on the incidence of accidents at camera intersections around the state. The study found that overall the number of crashes went up 0.9 percent, while the incidence of right-angle crashes, which tend to be the worst, went down 15 percent. Doherty points out, however, that the rate of rear-end collisions went up 20 percent and resulted in more injuries, and that severity of injuries in the "T-bone" crashes increased, even as the incidence dipped.
Clearly, the devil is in the details - and the details, while not yet based on long-term observation, don't make the case that intersections with cameras are safer."


It's funny, how people say "safety" and it's magically supposed to be true. It never occurs to them to follow the money. If red-light cameras were money losers or revenue-neutral they wouldn't exist, safety be damned. They are fundraisers, pure and simple.
 
2013-04-21 07:02:11 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Stone Meadow: So, you still have nothing to say about their info being used to improve traffic safety, eh?

That's a myth. Red light cameras do not improve safety, they generate money.

"Yet Doherty's argument goes deeper - to the mixed bag of statistical analysis on the public benefit of the cameras. Studies have gone both ways, but the most relevant one for New Jersey was released last November, based on the incidence of accidents at camera intersections around the state. The study found that overall the number of crashes went up 0.9 percent, while the incidence of right-angle crashes, which tend to be the worst, went down 15 percent. Doherty points out, however, that the rate of rear-end collisions went up 20 percent and resulted in more injuries, and that severity of injuries in the "T-bone" crashes increased, even as the incidence dipped.
Clearly, the devil is in the details - and the details, while not yet based on long-term observation, don't make the case that intersections with cameras are safer."

It's funny, how people say "safety" and it's magically supposed to be true. It never occurs to them to follow the money. If red-light cameras were money losers or revenue-neutral they wouldn't exist, safety be damned. They are fundraisers, pure and simple.


They generate money.... from people breaking the law. Screw those people.
 
2013-04-21 07:05:39 PM  

Bungles: They generate money.... from people breaking the law. Screw those people.


Thanks for the confirmation that you don't care whether or not people get hurt. Safety my ass.
 
2013-04-21 07:18:16 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Bungles: They generate money.... from people breaking the law. Screw those people.

Thanks for the confirmation that you don't care whether or not people get hurt. Safety my ass.



Are you suggesting speed limits have just been randomly chosen by moon-goblins to irritate you, as opposed to vast amounts of global traffic statistics over 50 years?
 
2013-04-21 07:28:19 PM  

Bungles: Are you suggesting speed limits have just been randomly chosen by moon-goblins to irritate you, as opposed to vast amounts of global traffic statistics over 50 years?


As a matter of fact, yes. Speed limits should be set to the 85th percentile. In practice that is how fast people go anyway regardless of the posted speed limit. There are a few exceptions, but there are enough instances of speed traps to establish a pattern of people setting them artificially low to raise funds.

Note that speed traps do not exist in states where the accumulated fine money goes to the state and not to the locale that issues the ticket.
 
2013-04-21 07:29:30 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Stone Meadow: So, you still have nothing to say about their info being used to improve traffic safety, eh?

That's a myth. Red light cameras do not improve safety, they generate money.

"Yet Doherty's argument goes deeper - to the mixed bag of statistical analysis on the public benefit of the cameras. Studies have gone both ways, but the most relevant one for New Jersey was released last November, based on the incidence of accidents at camera intersections around the state. The study found that overall the number of crashes went up 0.9 percent, while the incidence of right-angle crashes, which tend to be the worst, went down 15 percent. Doherty points out, however, that the rate of rear-end collisions went up 20 percent and resulted in more injuries, and that severity of injuries in the "T-bone" crashes increased, even as the incidence dipped.
Clearly, the devil is in the details - and the details, while not yet based on long-term observation, don't make the case that intersections with cameras are safer."

It's funny, how people say "safety" and it's magically supposed to be true. It never occurs to them to follow the money. If red-light cameras were money losers or revenue-neutral they wouldn't exist, safety be damned. They are fundraisers, pure and simple.


I agree with you, which is why I was calling out namatad for claiming the data could be used to improve traffic safety.
 
2013-04-21 07:33:18 PM  

Bungles: Are you suggesting speed limits have just been randomly chosen by moon-goblins to irritate you, as opposed to vast amounts of global traffic statistics over 50 years?


As a matter of fact, a great many speed limits have been set by one or two cranky old farts in a neighborhood getting up a rabble to frighten the city council. A lot more have been concocted by commercial speed traps and red light traps. State and national highways tend to be governed by engineers. Local streets are governed by the ever-reasonable local governments and by commercial interests. If it works for commercial homeowners' association companies (and it does) it will work for commercial traffic trap extortion as well. If you have either, get out there and overturn the entity that enables it.
 
Displayed 50 of 59 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report