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(BBC)   Recursion goes to jail goes to Recursion goes to jail goes to Recursion goes to jail goes to Recursion goes to jail goes to Recursion goes to Exception in thread "main" java.lang.StackOverflowError   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 43
    More: Dumbass, recursion, java.lang.StackOverflowError, exceptions, Cody Kretsinger, Serious Organised Crime Agency, Sony, Ryan Cleary, Lulz Security  
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4243 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 Apr 2013 at 8:24 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-20 07:29:33 PM
Recursion ceased being viable the minute the DCI created a Restricted List.
 
2013-04-20 08:01:26 PM
lost100pounds.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-20 08:24:55 PM
Proper recursion has a conditional with a branch which should fall through before you run out of memory. But since the linked article says that DOS attacks were used, I guess all bets are off.

/I forget, is a stack overflow a catchable error? I'm not sure, but I'm too lazy to look it up. I wouldn't think it would be.
 
2013-04-20 08:27:33 PM
To truly understand recursion, one must understand recursion.
 
2013-04-20 08:28:18 PM
Sony said the hack caused more than $600,000 (£392,000) in damage.


Is that real quantifiable damages or Kevin Mitnick damages?
 
2013-04-20 08:31:44 PM

Snapper Carr: Sony said the hack caused more than $600,000 (£392,000) in damage.


Is that real quantifiable damages or Kevin Mitnick damages?


RIAA damages.
 
2013-04-20 08:38:47 PM
GNU's not Unix
 
2013-04-20 08:39:00 PM

show me: Proper recursion has a conditional with a branch which should fall through before you run out of memory. But since the linked article says that DOS attacks were used, I guess all bets are off.

/I forget, is a stack overflow a catchable error? I'm not sure, but I'm too lazy to look it up. I wouldn't think it would be.


In Java you sure can. Throws a StackOverflowError.
 
2013-04-20 08:41:20 PM

show me: I forget, is a stack overflow a catchable error?


They're very easy to catch; most programmers don't run very fast.
 
2013-04-20 08:42:43 PM
Did you hear about the programmer in the shower?  He read the instructions on the shampoo bottle and never came out.
 
2013-04-20 08:47:53 PM
First off, I'm not defending Recursion. He hacked, he got caught, he has no moral high ground to stand on.

My problem is that Sony was criminally negligent, I say that figuratively because our justice system won't make it literal. All reports show they neglected patching, network access controls, and system hardening which is completely drain bramaged considering the size and scope of their service. Is there a civil suit against Sony regarding this incompetence? No, because the end user agreement for users of the PSN demands arbitration. Sony and too many companies before them have no culpability in the event of an intrusion of this magnitude. Until someone substantial goes out of business because they suck at IT management/infosec it will continue to be the case. As long as the cyberwar scare mongers want to talk about national interest, we and our allies have the most to lose from private economic damage. Our efforts to create an offensive capability is a mistake in the light of the relatively low effort steps to make private industry more resistant to attack.
 
2013-04-20 08:48:43 PM

show me: Proper recursion has a conditional with a branch which should fall through before you run out of memory.


The JVM is a bit of a short-stack. It doesn't do recursion very well. That's why Clojure (LISP implemented in the JVM) is the one LISP dialect that doesn't throw recursion at every problem.
 
2013-04-20 09:32:22 PM
Lulzsec claimed to have attacked the Sun newspaper's website, on which a false story was planted suggesting that Rupert Murdoch, CEO of its News Corporation parent company, had died.

That's pretty weak. Something like a rumor about Murdoch farking a kangaroo would have been better. Anything not so easily disprovable as him being dead.


Snapper Carr: Sony said the hack caused more than $600,000 (£392,000) in damage.

Is that real quantifiable damages or Kevin Mitnick damages?


I was wondering that, too. They probably just pulled the number out of their asses.
 
2013-04-20 09:47:18 PM
The time seems like a slap on the wrist while the fine seems ludicrous.
 
2013-04-20 09:48:38 PM

UNC_Samurai: Recursion ceased being viable the minute the DCI created a Restricted List.


Without a restricted list, Drum Corps International events would be indistinguishable from high school marching band competitions.
 
2013-04-20 09:51:17 PM

hackalope: Our efforts to create an offensive capability is a mistake in the light of the relatively low effort steps to make private industry more resistant to attack.


Who said you can't do both?
 
2013-04-20 10:05:09 PM
If only he had used a compiler with tail call optimization this wouldn't have been a problem.

CSB time: Someone discovered a bug in Python that caused an internal function (written in C) to call itself recursively.  On Windows it crashed because the stack would overflow, but on Linux it ran forever in a busy loop, because GCC unwinds the stack before returning the result of a function call.
 
2013-04-20 10:41:03 PM

aerojockey: CSB time: Someone discovered a bug in Python that caused an internal function (written in C) to call itself recursively.  On Windows it crashed because the stack would overflow, but on Linux it ran forever in a busy loop, because GCC unwinds the stack before returning the result of a function call.


I would think that would cause it to chew up RAM until Linux's process watcher auto-killed it.
 
2013-04-20 10:48:04 PM

MrEricSir: I would think that would cause it to chew up RAM until Linux's process watcher auto-killed it.


Nope- that's the beauty of a tail call optimization. When a recursive function's return value is a call to the function itself, a compiler can convert it into a while loop. You'll never crash the stack.
 
2013-04-20 11:01:33 PM

MrEricSir: I would think that would cause it to chew up RAM until Linux's process watcher auto-killed it.


Nah.  It was a trivial function: all it did was to call another function (by pointer) and return the result.  Except it doesn't actually call the other function when tail-call optimization is enabled; instead jumps to (not calls) the other function.  So, when someone stumbled upon a way to set the function pointer to the function itself, it would end up just jumping back to itself.
 
2013-04-20 11:49:24 PM
He forgot to -Xss
 
2013-04-21 12:23:59 AM
There is the theory of the Möbius: a twist in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop. where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.
 
2013-04-21 12:52:01 AM
So how much is this damage in comparison to the rootkit Sony infected a huge amount of computers with before?
 
2013-04-21 03:14:58 AM

Dr. Goldshnoz: The time seems like a slap on the wrist while the fine seems ludicrous.


not to long ago a hacker facing 6 months killed himself and the community went bonkers.

this guy faces a year and it's a slap on the wrist?
 
2013-04-21 04:39:41 AM

hackalope: My problem is that Sony was criminally negligent, I say that figuratively because our justice system won't make it literal. All reports show they neglected patching, network access controls, and system hardening which is completely drain bramaged considering the size and scope of their service. Is there a civil suit against Sony regarding this incompetence? No, because the end user agreement for users of the PSN demands arbitration...


A EULA is a challengeable document; it is the paper tiger of the computer industry.

They only continue to work because they're backed by companies with huge legal departments and nobody has been interested enough to put up the huge fight that it's gonna take. And more troubling, some of them even have merit. For instance, your ISP's EULA explicitly does not guarantee you'll be always able to get online. And of course it can't, that's perfectly reasonable. This means that ones to fight have to be carefully chosen.
 
2013-04-21 05:25:55 AM

UNC_Samurai: Recursion ceased being viable the minute the DCI created a Restricted List.


Whatever, nerd.  Leave the graveyard alone.
 
2013-04-21 06:19:00 AM

hackalope: they suck at IT management/infosec


It isn't that Sony sucks at IT management/infosec.  It's that to do it properly would cost X, X being a figure that accounts for all the change windows you'd need to open for patching, overtime for certain staff members and obviously software licensing.   To write in to the TOS that it's all YOUR fault and slap the equivalent of "no merchantable quality either actual or implied" costs Y.

Y is always substantially less than X.  Because Y is just an hour or two of your on staff legal bods working on it.   Therefor until the law changes in America that a contract can't be totally one-sided and bend you over, a business  will have zero reason to ever 'do it properly' until after they've been screwed down.


Even here in the UK, which tends to have sensible contract laws, I'd need to first go to court to get a ruling that the TOS was indeed one sided and then drag their bony asses in to court for damages.   Which I'm sure Sony would fight tooth & nail from the outset.
 
2013-04-21 06:23:53 AM
starsrift:

They only continue to work because they're backed by companies with huge legal departments and nobody has been interested enough to put up the huge fight that it's gonna take. And more troubling, some of them even have merit. For instance, your ISP's EULA explicitly does not guarantee you'll be always able to get online. And of course it can't, that's perfectly reasonable. This means that ones to fight have to be carefully chosen.

Microsoft's EULA was in court 3 times here in the UK.  1 went to MS, 1 went to the person, 1 was settled out of court so no precedence could be set.   I bet the payout from MS on case 3 was staggering (out of court settlement so no court records).

It's not just the teams of legal people, these companies can wave more cash under your nose than most people can imagine if they'll go away.
 
2013-04-21 07:07:56 AM

mcmnky: Dr. Goldshnoz: The time seems like a slap on the wrist while the fine seems ludicrous.

not to long ago a hacker facing 6 months killed himself and the community went bonkers.

this guy faces a year and it's a slap on the wrist?


A year, which will probably end up being 3 months + being let out with a tag for the remainder or being put on parole.
 
2013-04-21 07:31:52 AM
For those who are not sure about what made this SQL injection attack possible: information stored in plaintext in a database that can be accessed through the web and there's nothing implemented to filter out escape characters. This, and how you can avoid it, are amongst the first things you learn when starting your first book on database development. It's not something that needs years of über professional elite knowledge and experience, it is farking basic stuff.

Damn this guy should go free, but those responsible for this at Sony and their bosses should be shot on the spot.
 
2013-04-21 07:50:41 AM

traylor: For those who are not sure about what made this SQL injection attack possible: information stored in plaintext in a database that can be accessed through the web and there's nothing implemented to filter out escape characters. This, and how you can avoid it, are amongst the first things you learn when starting your first book on database development. It's not something that needs years of über professional elite knowledge and experience, it is farking basic stuff.

Damn this guy should go free, but those responsible for this at Sony and their bosses should be shot on the spot.


wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-21 08:09:04 AM

show me: Proper recursion has a conditional with a branch which should fall through before you run out of memory. But since the linked article says that DOS attacks were used, I guess all bets are off.

/I forget, is a stack overflow a catchable error? I'm not sure, but I'm too lazy to look it up. I wouldn't think it would be.


Practically speaking, you need to implement something, but at the conceptual level an infinite regress is not an error. Only if you require your algorithm to halt is it a problem.
 
2013-04-21 08:33:17 AM

Green Scorpio: traylor: For those who are not sure about what made this SQL injection attack possible: information stored in plaintext in a database that can be accessed through the web and there's nothing implemented to filter out escape characters. This, and how you can avoid it, are amongst the first things you learn when starting your first book on database development. It's not something that needs years of über professional elite knowledge and experience, it is farking basic stuff.

Damn this guy should go free, but those responsible for this at Sony and their bosses should be shot on the spot.

[wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com image 713x250]


cache.gawker.com

There's an XKCD for every thread.  You'll see.
 
2013-04-21 12:28:28 PM

retarded: To truly understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.


So true, but of course that's not exactly helpful advice about how to understand recursion in the base case. So for those farkers who might be a little unsteady on the joke, here's a helpful process you can use to learn about recursion. You simply ask someone standing nearer to Douglas Hofstadter than you to use this helpful process to explain recursion to you.
 
2013-04-21 02:13:18 PM

semiotix: Douglas Hofstadter


Smart guy, I loved GEB, but he's kind of an asshole.
 
2013-04-21 02:33:47 PM

show me: Proper recursion has a conditional with a branch which should fall through before you run out of memory. But since the linked article says that DOS attacks were used, I guess all bets are off.

/I forget, is a stack overflow a catchable error? I'm not sure, but I'm too lazy to look it up. I wouldn't think it would be.


all throwables are catchable.  but its an error, so why would you want to?
 
2013-04-21 03:11:10 PM

UNC_Samurai: Recursion ceased being viable the minute the DCI created a Restricted List.


A Magic reference was the last thing I expected as a Weeners.
 
2013-04-21 03:22:37 PM

thisiszombocom: all throwables are catchable.  but its an error, so why would you want to?


If you're writing a recursive algorithm that you know could recurse too deeply for some inputs, you could specifically catch StackOverflowError to detect that and safely abort the attempt.  But yes, most of the time, Errors are something you shouldn't try to recover from.

One thing I really dislike about Java is that you have to declare all non-RuntimeExceptions in function prototypes, and that you have to explicitly "catch" all those errors.  What's wrong with a system in which most exceptions just propagate to the top level?
 
2013-04-21 04:13:05 PM

Myria: But yes, most of the time, Errors are something you shouldn't try to recover from.


Hunh? "Recover from" can be as simple as letting the calling code know that it's not getting the result it expected. Most of the time, errors  are things you should recover from. You should catch them before they hit the top of the stack, but as a general rule, it's easiest to catch them at the highest level you can get away with.

You're right, though, the idea that you have to specify exceptions in the prototype is incredibly annoying, and it makes it much harder to build generic exception-handling modules that just trap unhandled exceptions before they hit the top of the stack.
 
2013-04-21 05:09:50 PM
i can't believe there was a time i actually knew and understood LISP
i really tried my HARDEST in that class

i believe it had something to do with teh gay
 
2013-04-21 06:15:44 PM

GypsyJoker: There is the theory of the Möbius: a twist in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop. where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.


One of my favorite albums of all time.
 
2013-04-21 06:58:54 PM

hackalope: First off, I'm not defending Recursion. He hacked, he got caught, he has no moral high ground to stand on.

My problem is that Sony was criminally negligent, I say that figuratively because our justice system won't make it literal. All reports show they neglected patching, network access controls, and system hardening which is completely drain bramaged considering the size and scope of their service. Is there a civil suit against Sony regarding this incompetence? No, because the end user agreement for users of the PSN demands arbitration. Sony and too many companies before them have no culpability in the event of an intrusion of this magnitude. Until someone substantial goes out of business because they suck at IT management/infosec it will continue to be the case. As long as the cyberwar scare mongers want to talk about national interest, we and our allies have the most to lose from private economic damage. Our efforts to create an offensive capability is a mistake in the light of the relatively low effort steps to make private industry more resistant to attack.


This line of reasoning will never stop making me laugh.

Tomorrow somebody breaks in to your house and steals some things that ultimately let them steal your identity... By your logic you're responsible for all of that simply because you didn't have a more secure house. Sony's stuff was so horrifically insecure that... it took from 2008 until 2011 for somebody to break in? Why didn't they do it far sooner than that? Could it be... That no amount of security is ever going to be enough no matter what you do if hundreds, if not thousands, of people are bound and determined to keep trying until they break your security?

Or maybe we can say what actually happened.

A bunch of little punks didn't like the fact that Sony went after somebody who tried to make it possible for people to steal games. I remember people making fun of Sony when the PS3 was finally hacked because somebody finally found a way... Sony was just so stupid because... Yeah, they were so stupid that it took years finally crack the damn thing. This entire thing stemmed from hackers, crackers, jailbreakers, whatever you want to call them and Sony's attempts to stay ahead of them however they could. How DARE they, let's hurt them by... screwing with their customers who were completely innocent bystanders?

I will say this again... There were no problems until people started trying to crack the PS3... None. Never let it be said, and to your eternal shame, that all was peace here until you came.
 
2013-04-22 04:09:55 AM

GypsyJoker: There is the theory of the Möbius: a twist in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop. where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.  where time becomes a loop.


https://www.youtube.com/v/QER_yqTcmjM?autoplay=1&loop=1&playlist=QER _y qTcmjM
This is the good version. Turn up volume, middle click thrice, enjoy.
 
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