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(Hardball Talk)   Your WTF MLB play of the week is brought to you by Milwaukee's Jean Segura   (hardballtalk.nbcsports.com) divider line 25
    More: Weird, Jean Segura, Major League Baseball, WTF MLB, Jhoulys Chacin, Milwaukee, Brett Anderson, Phil Cuzzi, Ryan Braun  
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2584 clicks; posted to Sports » on 20 Apr 2013 at 3:53 PM (52 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-20 03:36:38 PM
Has first base ever been stolen before?
 
2013-04-20 03:42:47 PM
That play was so awful. No one knew what was going on. I wish I had been listening to Uecker last night, I'm sure his reaction was priceless.
 
2013-04-20 03:47:50 PM
So he had one stolen base and two caught stealings in one inning?
 
2013-04-20 03:55:01 PM
I need to find that play that Jon Miller called "the worst baserunning in the history of the game." I need to decide if Segura was actually worse.
 
2013-04-20 03:55:21 PM

Nefarious: Has first base ever been stolen before?


If you mean "has a runner ever gone backwards from second to first intentionally" then yes, it has.
 
2013-04-20 03:58:54 PM

desertgeek: I need to find that play that Jon Miller called "the worst baserunning in the history of the game." I need to decide if Segura was actually worse.


Rubin Rivera was worse.
 
2013-04-20 04:06:27 PM
So it's possible, if you're close to setting a base stealing record and you find yourself on third, to steal second. And I think if the defense actually attempts to throw you out, the scorer doesn't have the discretion to deny you the stolen base.
 
2013-04-20 04:18:00 PM

Donnchadha: Nefarious: Has first base ever been stolen before?

If you mean "has a runner ever gone backwards from second to first intentionally" then yes, it has.



Dear Jerk: So it's possible, if you're close to setting a base stealing record and you find yourself on third, to steal second. And I think if the defense actually attempts to throw you out, the scorer doesn't have the discretion to deny you the stolen base.


There's a rule against it now. There used to not be though.  A guy named Germany Schaeffer was on second once and a teammate on third. He stole first with the intent of confusing the defense, thereby giving the other runner time to score.  And it half worked. The defense what a WTF moment, but so did the runner.  On the next pitch he stole his way back to second and this time the runner did score.  Stealing backwards wasn't prohibited at the time, probably because they didn't think anybody would do it.
 
2013-04-20 04:26:19 PM

Dear Jerk: So it's possible, if you're close to setting a base stealing record and you find yourself on third, to steal second. And I think if the defense actually attempts to throw you out, the scorer doesn't have the discretion to deny you the stolen base.


Well the two reasons you can't steal backwards are 1) as a distraction and 2) if it would make a travesty of the game.  I would think that padding your stats to chase a record would fall into the latter category.

desertgeek: I need to find that play that Jon Miller called "the worst baserunning in the history of the game." I need to decide if Segura was actually worse.


Rivera misjudged a fly ball then lost the ball entirely and then lost where he was, and wandering aimlessly for like 30 seconds in a 20 foot area - then made it WORSE by trying to advance on a missed throw that stayed in the infield.

Segura made a stupid mistake on a relatively uncommon rule regarding possession of the base (one even the position players likely weren't sure of - they tagged both guys to make sure, just as you're taught in Little League; tag both, let the ump remember the rule.  Braun and Segura should have both stood on the base until making sure they saw the ump indicated which one was safe and which was out and time was called - looks like Braun did that.  The ump did a good job indicating that only Braun was out, Segura just didn't see it since he took off for the dugout).  Segura then kind of atoned for the mistake (thanks to a heads up first base coach) by getting in to first, preserving at least one runner.  

Boneheaded play - yes, but nowhere near the worst base-running in the history of the game
 
2013-04-20 05:02:04 PM
Had I read the article (wait, people actually do that?) I would've seen my Schaeffer comment was already covered, although different sources vary in their account of if he was safe or out and whether or not the runner ever scored.
 
2013-04-20 05:33:30 PM
How does this not qualify under the 'making a travesty of the game' clause?
 
2013-04-20 05:55:33 PM
I can't find the Mets' minor league affiliate Benny Hill triple play from a couple of years back anywhere, can someone link?
 
2013-04-20 06:24:47 PM

Nefarious: Has first base ever been stolen before?


Yep. If a batter has a third strike which the catcher fails to control (usually a wild pitch with a horrible swing from the batter, most often a passed ball due to the pitcher and catcher getting crossed up on signals), the batter is allowed to run to first.

Though I may be misremembering, this is recorded as a stolen base if he makes it.
 
2013-04-20 06:26:56 PM

Sillygoth: Nefarious: Has first base ever been stolen before?

Yep. If a batter has a third strike which the catcher fails to control (usually a wild pitch with a horrible swing from the batter, most often a passed ball due to the pitcher and catcher getting crossed up on signals), the batter is allowed to run to first.

Though I may be misremembering, this is recorded as a stolen base if he makes it.


I do not believe this is correct. It's basically a strikeout with the batter getting on 1st due to a wild pitch/passed ball. It's not a steal.
 
2013-04-20 07:22:59 PM

desertgeek: Sillygoth: Nefarious: Has first base ever been stolen before?

Yep. If a batter has a third strike which the catcher fails to control (usually a wild pitch with a horrible swing from the batter, most often a passed ball due to the pitcher and catcher getting crossed up on signals), the batter is allowed to run to first.

Though I may be misremembering, this is recorded as a stolen base if he makes it.

I do not believe this is correct. It's basically a strikeout with the batter getting on 1st due to a wild pitch/passed ball. It's not a steal.


It goes down as a strikeout with batter-runner reaching on an error
 
2013-04-20 08:36:44 PM

JSam21: desertgeek: Sillygoth: Nefarious: Has first base ever been stolen before?

Yep. If a batter has a third strike which the catcher fails to control (usually a wild pitch with a horrible swing from the batter, most often a passed ball due to the pitcher and catcher getting crossed up on signals), the batter is allowed to run to first.

Though I may be misremembering, this is recorded as a stolen base if he makes it.

I do not believe this is correct. It's basically a strikeout with the batter getting on 1st due to a wild pitch/passed ball. It's not a steal.

It goes down as a strikeout with batter-runner reaching on an error


I know a passed ball will go down as an error in that situation. I don't know if the wild pitch gets treated the same way.
 
2013-04-20 09:36:35 PM
Why was Braun called out at second base?
 
2013-04-20 10:05:01 PM

Tex Colorado the Arizona Assassin: Why was Braun called out at second base?


Because Segura was the leading baserunner. The trailing baserunner can't occupy the same base, or pass the lead runner during any point of play, or else he's automatically out.

(And to the folks that corrected me a few posts up-thanks. I really wasn't sure. I know that I've heard it referred to as "stealing first", but I wasn't sure if that's how it was actually scored or if it was an expression.)
 
2013-04-20 10:36:30 PM

red5ish: How does this not qualify under the 'making a travesty of the game' clause?


Being a dumbass is ok, being a jackass is not.

This play was clearly the first kind.
 
2013-04-20 10:47:22 PM

red5ish: How does this not qualify under the 'making a travesty of the game' clause?


There is a comment on the rule that reads:

If a runner touches an unoccupied base and then thinks the ball was caught or is decoyed into returning to the base he last touched, he may be put out running back to that base, but if he reaches the previously occupied base safely he cannot be put out while in contact with that base.

That's pretty close to the situation here - Segura was "decoyed" (or he decoyed himself) into thinking that he was out, and once he realized that he wasn't, he occupied a previously held base.
 
2013-04-21 01:38:33 AM

bacongood: red5ish: How does this not qualify under the 'making a travesty of the game' clause?

Being a dumbass is ok, being a jackass is not.

This play was clearly the first kind.


Also, "making a travesty of the game" would be something more along the lines of just running back and forth between 1st and 2nd repeatedly without the defensive team attempting to throw you out.  This actually happened on Sept 4th 1908 and its why the "travesty of the game" rule is written as it is.  Back then, stealing 1st from second was perfectly legal.  On the play in question, the Detriot Tigers had runners on 1st and 3rd.  The runner on 1st was Germany Schaefer.  The strategy was to take off to steal second, and when the catcher or pitcher tried to make the throw, the runner on 3rd could score.  However, there was no throw when he stole second, so then he ran back to first, and then he tried to get them to throw him out at 2nd again.
 
2013-04-21 01:41:04 AM
And just noticed the play with Shaefer is actually mentioned in this article, but has it in August 1911.  My source was this article on ESPN.com
 
2013-04-21 09:25:51 AM
Seems pretty clear that they did, in fact, get Segura out the second time they tagged him, as his foot was off the bag at that point.
 
2013-04-21 12:33:33 PM

Sillygoth: Tex Colorado the Arizona Assassin: Why was Braun called out at second base?

Because Segura was the leading baserunner. The trailing baserunner can't occupy the same base, or pass the lead runner during any point of play, or else he's automatically out.

(And to the folks that corrected me a few posts up-thanks. I really wasn't sure. I know that I've heard it referred to as "stealing first", but I wasn't sure if that's how it was actually scored or if it was an expression.)


Well not exactly. Had Segura touched 3rd before returning to 2nd while Braun was occupying it, then Segura would have been the one declared out. The previous base is still occupied by the lead runner until he touches the next base.

So that's why Braun was declared out. Also you tag both runners because a play has to be made on both runners for the trail runner to be declared out if there are 2 runners occupying the same base.
 
2013-04-21 03:37:04 PM
So how does this show up on the scorecard?
 
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