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(NPR)   20 years after Waco, it's still real to the Branch Davidians   (npr.org) divider line 88
    More: Strange, Branch Davidians, Waco, David Koresh, prophecies, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives  
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10601 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Apr 2013 at 1:10 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-04-20 02:04:18 PM
5 votes:
Read The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog, by Bruice Perry, MD.  He is the former Chief of Psychiatry at Texas Children's Hospital. A number of children were released from the compound in the days before the fire, and  Dr Perry worked with the them. The children all drew pictures of the compound engulfed in flames BEFORE it burned. When it happened, not one of them was even a little surprised. They all knew that everyone who stayed would die in the fire. It was planned. They knew how it was going to end. The fire was the BD's koolaid. It was in the script. They did it to themselves.
2013-04-20 10:29:10 AM
5 votes:
Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?
2013-04-20 02:19:30 PM
4 votes:
Love how many here are 100% absolutely sure that the government slaughtered a bunch of innocent Christians because "I don't like the government and I heard they do mean things so everything bad is all their fault".
2013-04-20 01:22:06 PM
4 votes:

Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.


This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.
2013-04-20 12:50:31 PM
4 votes:

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.
2013-04-20 02:02:38 PM
3 votes:
I guess some people think that when you go to execute an arrest warrant, and the suspect and his henchmen shoot and kill some of the arresting officers, you should just turn around, go home, and leave them be.  After all, it was obviously either that or siege, and if siege was the wrong answer. . . .

And how would those critical of the use of tear gas propose they end the situation otherwise?  It seems like a pretty reasonable way to force them out without causing serious injury.  Absent the hindsight of knowing they were mass-suicidal, of course.

Regardless of who started the fire (it was the Davidians, of course, but regardless), it was the Davidians who kept most of the victims from fleeing, shooting them if they had to.  The only people who were shot by federal agents were actively trying to kill people.

I suppose you people blame Congressman Leo Ryan for killing everyone at Jonestown, too.  After all, if he hadn't gone down there. . .
2013-04-20 01:31:49 PM
3 votes:
The man had a contest with another religious nut job about which one of them could raise a man from the dead. They eventually got rid of the corpse cause it was stinking the place up.

All they had to do was not initiate gun fire, or  not fire back or walk out with their hands in the air. They actively sought to murder people. And when those people you murder are police and other law enforcement agents, their surviving colleagues tend not to forget your tactics.

You reap what you sow. It's in the Bible. Study it out.
2013-04-21 01:19:16 AM
2 votes:

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


It got rid of the Branch Davidians.
2013-04-20 04:22:28 PM
2 votes:
"The Branch Davidians, including children, were being readied for the imminent end of the world (hence Koresh's nickname for the compound, Ranch Apocalypse.) ... Even the youngest members were taught how to handle guns. They were instructed in the most lethal suicide techniques with firearms, being told to aim for the 'soft spot' in the back of the mouth if they faced capture by the 'Babylonians.' " pg 58

"One of my next interviews was with a little girl, almost six years old. I asked her to draw a picture of her home. She drew a picture of the compound. Then I asked her what she thought was going to happen at home. She redrew the same compound with flames everywhere. Atop it was a stairway to heaven." p 70

"During that time other children drew pictures of fire and explosions as well; some even said things like,
'We're going to blow you all up.' and 'Everyone is going to die.' " pg 70

The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog
Bruice D Perry Md, PhD

The above information came directly from the 21 Waco children released in the three days following the initial confrontation on February 28.
2013-04-20 03:29:44 PM
2 votes:
-They had pulled back once the sent in the tank to breach the wall.

-The tank used a CO2 system to deploy liquid CS.  There was no volatile propellant nor a chemical reaction taking place to produce the CS.

-Nobody was firing tear gas cannisters when the fire started, so all this talk about the high temperature tear gas cannister achieve is irrelevant.
2013-04-20 03:19:28 PM
2 votes:
April 19th = Conservative Hero Day
upload.wikimedia.org www.bluecorncomics.com
2013-04-20 03:14:39 PM
2 votes:

pedrop357: What happened to the front doors at the compound?
Which agent had the warrant for presentiation on demand?
Who announced themselves as law enforcement agents, and how long did they wait before executing the raid?


I'm going to go with the small group of federal agents that served the warrant and were shot at, for all of those questions. The Branch Davidians fired on federal agents. What the hell do you think is going to happen? They're going to come back and knock on the door again?
2013-04-20 02:24:40 PM
2 votes:

pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Love how many here are 100% absolutely sure that the government slaughtered a bunch of innocent Christians because "I don't like the government and I heard they do mean things so everything bad is all their fault".

Did a quick thread scan, seems like you're the only one saying that.


The vibes I'm getting say otherwise. "If the government had only done this", "If they'd just left those people alone", "This way/that/way/government burned all those kids".
2013-04-20 01:52:58 PM
2 votes:

Chunks McGunks: reklamfox: Chunks McGunks: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?

Not disagreeing with this at all (personally I believe the government agents probably accidentally started the fire), but wasn't it part of the official report that the ATF planted microphones in the walls of the complex and they managed to pick up bits and pieces of conversations from the church members referring to burning the place down to the ground? I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that as part of the "proof" that the Branch members started the fires, which was presented on tape in the investigation that followed this debacle. My googlefu is weak at work right now, so correct if wrong.

I'm no conspiracy theorist but from what I've witnessed in my lifetime when the government burns someone to death they'll say about anything to blame it on the people they burned to death.


And lunatic cult leaders will do anything to avoid facing justice for their actions. Including poison their entire Guyanese town  or, indeed, set their own compound on fire.
2013-04-20 01:50:38 PM
2 votes:

reklamfox: Not disagreeing with this at all (personally I believe the government agents probably accidentally started the fire), but wasn't it part of the official report that the ATF planted microphones in the walls of the complex and they managed to pick up bits and pieces of conversations from the church members referring to burning the place down to the ground? I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that as part of the "proof" that the Branch members started the fires, which was presented on tape in the investigation that followed this debacle. My googlefu is weak at work right now, so correct if wrong.


I believe it was on PBS' Frontline where they had audio recordings from inside the compound obtained through microphones places in milk containers and food boxes that they had delivered to the Davidians.  If I'm remembering correctly (this was probably a couple of years after the actual incident) you can clearly hear them talking about where to place the hay bails sprayed with gasoline and when the wall was breached something like 'light it up' from inside the compound.

Seemed pretty clear to me that they burned the place up themselves.  Doomsday cults tend to want to be right no matter what.
2013-04-20 01:43:52 PM
2 votes:

doglover: Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


It was the early days of the 24 hour news networks, and after the first Gulf War (Desert Storm) they didn't have much.  The Waco and the Clinton fiascoes (and the OJ chase and subsequent trial), sadly, justified their existence and convinced the public that continuous news outlets tailored to your personal, political kink were necessary.

In terms of journalism, the span of time from mid to the late 90's was the death of it.  We went from objective sources of honest information to sensationalized stories beholden, not to the truth, but what was in the best interests of whatever sponsors backed those time slots.  It became about viewers and ratings, and abandoned informing the public and started passing off whatever crap they could to fill those slots.

Then, in 1999, shortly after discovering the growth of hair in his "special place," a young, acne-pocked, borderline-alcoholic, entrepreneur living in his mother's basement in Lexington, Kentucky first noticed the cynicism of the national news networks, and Fark.com was born and Drew Curtis became a whorehousehold name and a bourbon distillery regular.

So, if you ask what was accomplished by the siege at Waco, look around, young man.  Look at the myriad of sweet, silly flowers in this garden of madness, and remember than none of this would have been possible had it not been for, among other things, that very siege.
2013-04-20 01:41:31 PM
2 votes:

doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.


The FBI nor ATF did that. It was all Koresh's fault. He ordered his slaves to set those fires. He'd rather take down himself and everyone around him in flames than face the music for his kiddy-diddling.
2013-04-20 01:31:35 PM
2 votes:

Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs


There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?
2013-04-20 01:27:19 PM
2 votes:

Rufus Lee King: What? You mean that some folks are still angry about government thugs an insane cult leader roasting innocent women and children alive? Who would have thought?


FTFY.
2013-04-20 01:24:24 PM
2 votes:

MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.


Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.
2013-04-20 01:23:17 PM
2 votes:
"We survivors of 1993 are looking for David and all those that died either in shootout or in the fire," Doyle says. "We believe that God will resurrect this special group."

Wow. That's just f*cked up. And people mock atheists.
2013-04-20 12:40:20 PM
2 votes:

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


Not much. I think most people would agree that the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.
2013-04-20 12:24:11 PM
2 votes:

2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.


Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs
2013-04-20 12:18:06 PM
2 votes:

doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.


No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.
2013-04-20 12:07:06 PM
2 votes:

DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?


That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.
2013-04-21 04:18:58 PM
1 votes:

FarkinHostile: DoctorCal:

 Again, the Constitution is bright line clear that warring against the government is treason, with no implicit or explicit exceptions.


And this is where we would have a disagreement. It doesn't say warring against the Government, it says warring against the United States. The Government is not the United States.

When I joined the Military, I took an oath to "uphold and defend THE CONSTITUTION of the United States, from all enemies, foreign and domestic."  Not the Government, but the Constitution. And considering that the founding fathers were rebels against the established government of the time, it's clear they had no problem with citizens taking up arms against a government which is a domestic enemy of the Constitution.

Not to condone "terrorism", but not everyone who is against the government is a "traitor".  Some might be the most dedicated Patriots, in fact. One mans "Band of renegades" is another mans "Freedom Fighters".


I apologize, you are correct. The Constitution clearly states that warring against the United States is an act of Treason, without exception.

The Constitution also specifies the utility of the armed militia: to suppress insurrections and repel invasions. There's not a peep about overthrowing some future tyrannical form of the government. So actually, what's clear is that the DID have a problem with the idea of citizens of *this* country taking up arms against *this* government. They were explicit.
2013-04-21 10:56:03 AM
1 votes:

LordJiro: Giblet: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

You're half-trying to be clever and sarcastic but that is the logical point of view, given that every government seeks empire status by default. Even a drooling moron knows this from reading history.

Of course, if one is lazy and/or intellectually incurious, they seldom read ... yet ironically seem to know exponentially more than others about nearly everything.

We are supposed to distrust our government, you sniveling lackey. We have an entire Amendment devoted to snuffing a government that forgets whom it serves. WTF did you think the 2nd Amendment is for? Protection from ducks and deer?

The 2nd Amendment stopped being any threat to the government the moment we established a standing army. And it's only become LESS of a threat as technology improves.  No matter how many rifles and shotguns and handguns you have on your wall, it won't mean shiat when an A-10 blows the whole place up.


You assume there is a pilot willing to blow his fellow citizen's shiat away.
Guess what.
2013-04-21 06:31:08 AM
1 votes:

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: FTA: Either way, the agency's actions are indefensible, says Catherine Wessinger, a religious historian at Loyola University in New Orleans, an authority on apocalyptic groups and an expert on the Davidian episode. "If the FBI believed they were dealing with members of a cult who were not in their right minds, then why would the FBI put so much pressure on them and then ultimately carry out an assault which just confirmed David Koresh's prophecies?" Wessinger says.

OK, so what should the ATF and FBI have done?


Not been complete farking morons. If you want more details, read up and use your own common sense.
2013-04-21 01:32:00 AM
1 votes:

UnspokenVoice: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

It got rid of the Branch Davidians.


Wow you really didn't read the article did you?
2013-04-21 12:14:44 AM
1 votes:

pedrop357: B.L.Z. Bub: generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?

Are people still clinging to the notion that the police were responsible for Dorner's death when all he had to do was come out of the cabin?

Hey, I'm not responsible for killing that woman, all she had to do was cooperate and let me have sex with her.

Aren't the police supposed to be the better ones?


Looks like we found Glenn Beck's fark handle.

Where were you in 1990?
2013-04-20 11:20:45 PM
1 votes:
RyogaM

It's all that needs to be said on the subject for those with open minds.

Because open minds are known for shutting down when commanded to do so.  Yes SIR!

(Fortunately I have a closed mind)

I'm so closed-minded I don't know how the fire started because I wasn't inside the compound and didn't see it happen.   I do know that the feds were frustrated.  They had lost the shootout, and were losing the stalemate as more and more people started rooting for the Davidians.  Fifty days or something, right?  That's a long time to sit around waiting for someone to give up.

A closed-minded person might think that burning them out had at some point crossed someone's mind.  The normal way it works is you light the enemy hideout, and they coming running into the open, whether they want to or not.  The same human instinct that can get people to jump out a 100th floor window to escape being burned alive will cause even the strongest-willed people to flee a burning house.

That same closed-minded individual might also observe that the fire just so happened to start on a real windy day, and at about the same locations and times that holes were breached in the compound by armored vehicles, which just by random chance happened to attack from the upwind side of the building.

This stuff I know because I watched it happen on live TV.

But then something went wrong.  Nobody of them came out, not that I saw on TV anyway.

I found it perplexing.
2013-04-20 09:41:15 PM
1 votes:

MisterRonbo: Chunks McGunks: There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire? Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html#started

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberately set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)


Thank you, I could not find this for shiat.  It's all that needs to be said on the subject for those with open minds.
2013-04-20 07:25:24 PM
1 votes:
I don't think anyone picked up on this, but the "Hawaiian restaurant" Paul Fatta owns is the BIG KAHUNAS! Yes, the "tasty burger" from pulp fiction. See for yourself:

http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/San-Diego/paul-fatta/44228 07 8.aspx
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2009/jun/24/big-kahuna-flavors/

Apparently it was started by his grandfather.
2013-04-20 07:23:17 PM
1 votes:

YixilTesiphon: Peter von Nostrand: the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.

So, the feds shouldn't have been there, just like with Ruby Ridge?

If the dude was raping kids - and why else do people start cults - then he could have been arrested when out on his daily run.


This.  1-Sir, he's unarmed and carrying a bag of groceries.  Should we arrest him?
2-No, wait until he's in his heavily armed compound with 70 other equally insane people.
2013-04-20 05:03:56 PM
1 votes:
Strange the ATF brought their own film crew with them.
 I seem to remember they were trying to boost their own budget and were talks of folding them into the FBI .

Or why didn't just grab Koresh off the street ?

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
2013-04-20 04:19:08 PM
1 votes:

universebetween: redmid17: Wise_Guy: universebetween: isnt there a video out there that clearly shows a flamethrower spewing flames off the front of the tank?

I know I saw it. it was a longtime ago but still.

No.

I think he means this video

It's pretty grainy, so I don't know if it actually shows anything

that would be one of the version yes. pretty much yea.

I guess it wasnt a flamethrower it was gas but the gas was well known to be very flammable. so its near negligence to me


The tanks fired liquid CS propelled with very non-flammable CO2.

They address the woman's video here (#7):  http://www.justice.gov/publications/waco/wacotwelve.html
2013-04-20 04:12:32 PM
1 votes:

redmid17: It was violent, but it was definitely hostile. BD knew they were coming. The feds knew that BD knew they were coming. Yet they still conducted an idiotic raid with a huge show of force when they easily could have nabbed Koresh or many of the other BDs who commonly went to sell guns at gun shows.


It sort of fits with a "lets impress the new boss" attitude.  If you wanted to connect it to Reno, I give this a higher possibility than a bond-villain plot of hers to snuff out a religious organization.  She wasn't even running the show when it started.
2013-04-20 04:04:42 PM
1 votes:

universebetween: isnt there a video out there that clearly shows a flamethrower spewing flames off the front of the tank?

I know I saw it. it was a longtime ago but still.


No.
2013-04-20 03:40:42 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: Whether you believe the ATF fired the first shots, or the BD fired the first shots, they went to serve the warrant. If you shoot me in the face when I try to serve a warrant, you don't get to then accuse me of not serving the warrant. They knew it was federal agents - they knew, even, that a federal agent had infiltrated the BB - and yet they prepared to "defend themselves" against a warrant. If they weren't sitting at the windows waiting to shoot people, the first shot wouldn't have resulted in exchanged gunfire.

You can accuse law enforcement of botching this operation - specifically, by performing the raid during the day, and with too little force to completely storm the place to stop them from destroying evidence - but accusing them of just burning the BD's compound down just because is just foolishness.

If they storm the place in a violent manner and and are fired on, they don't get to act like they were just serving a warrant and the other side started shooting just to avoid the law.


Sorry but driving a few pickup trucks with trailers is not violent.

You have yet to address anything I've said with any measure of reason. Enjoy your weekend.
2013-04-20 03:29:59 PM
1 votes:

Kahabut: LavenderWolf:

Sup, I have used smoke grenades. CS gas canisters are just dirty smoke grenades. I've been in heavily concentrated areas of CS gas while in the presence of an ignition source.

You are full of shiat. The actual heat source inside the canister gets very hot, but while the casing does get too hot to touch, that doesn't mean the casing is as hot as the heat source. In fact, it would be just about impossible for the canister to reach the same temperature as the fuel/heat source. You can pick up a smoke grenade and throw it again while it's burning without searing your skin.

Have YOU started a fire using a smoke grenade and no additional source of easily combustible fuel? Because I've thrown those farkers around in the middle of a pine forest covered in dead pine needles.

Are you talking about "tactical smoke" such as might be purchased for playing paintball, or are you talking about military grade material?  Because I'm sure you know, there is a far cry difference.  Furthermore, smoke and tear gas are far and away not similar substances and unless you are playing with IR smoke then you are just proving that you don't know the first thing about the subject.

Tear gas is generally a high temperature reaction.  Smoke is generally not a high temp reaction.  Tear gas is put into 40mm launchable canisters made of tin with no thermal insulation.  Smoke is made to be thrown on the forrest floor without starting a fire.

Typical warning on Gas nades "Throw away from self"
Typical warning on Tear Gas "warning do not use past expiration date" (it might explode instead) "do not use near flammable material" (it starts fires) "Use only outdoors" (the gas is toxic in large concentrations)

Please go back to your arm chair and reconsider your knowledge of the subject.  You could go look up police grade tear gas canisters and launchers, and you could also look into smoke, and you'll find two things. 1) they are not similar.  2) you didn't know what you were talking abou ...


Yes, and your iron says "Do not iron clothes on body."
2013-04-20 03:29:17 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: pedrop357: What happened to the front doors at the compound?
Which agent had the warrant for presentiation on demand?
Who announced themselves as law enforcement agents, and how long did they wait before executing the raid?

I'm going to go with the small group of federal agents that served the warrant and were shot at, for all of those questions. The Branch Davidians fired on federal agents. What the hell do you think is going to happen? They're going to come back and knock on the door again?

Which one had the warrant?  How did they present it?
Where did the doors go?

If the contention is that this was a lawful warrant service, then the question of who had the warrant, who knocked on the door, what they announced, how long they waited, etc. are extremely relevant.

The ATF, which has had a long sordid history of abuse is accused by the BD residents that survived of shooting without cause, never even trying to peacefully show the warrant, failing to announce themselves, etc.


Whether you believe the ATF fired the first shots, or the BD fired the first shots, they went to serve the warrant. If you shoot me in the face when I try to serve a warrant, you don't get to then accuse me of not serving the warrant. They knew it was federal agents - they knew, even, that a federal agent had infiltrated the BB - and yet they prepared to "defend themselves" against a warrant. If they weren't sitting at the windows waiting to shoot people, the first shot wouldn't have resulted in exchanged gunfire.

You can accuse law enforcement of botching this operation - specifically, by performing the raid during the day, and with too little force to completely storm the place to stop them from destroying evidence - but accusing them of just burning the BD's compound down just because is just foolishness.
2013-04-20 03:26:13 PM
1 votes:

Kahabut: LavenderWolf:

Sup, I have used smoke grenades. CS gas canisters are just dirty smoke grenades. I've been in heavily concentrated areas of CS gas while in the presence of an ignition source.

You are full of shiat. The actual heat source inside the canister gets very hot, but while the casing does get too hot to touch, that doesn't mean the casing is as hot as the heat source. In fact, it would be just about impossible for the canister to reach the same temperature as the fuel/heat source. You can pick up a smoke grenade and throw it again while it's burning without searing your skin.

Have YOU started a fire using a smoke grenade and no additional source of easily combustible fuel? Because I've thrown those farkers around in the middle of a pine forest covered in dead pine needles.

Are you talking about "tactical smoke" such as might be purchased for playing paintball, or are you talking about military grade material?  Because I'm sure you know, there is a far cry difference.  Furthermore, smoke and tear gas are far and away not similar substances and unless you are playing with IR smoke then you are just proving that you don't know the first thing about the subject.

Tear gas is generally a high temperature reaction.  Smoke is generally not a high temp reaction.  Tear gas is put into 40mm launchable canisters made of tin with no thermal insulation.  Smoke is made to be thrown on the forrest floor without starting a fire.

Typical warning on Gas nades "Throw away from self"
Typical warning on Tear Gas "warning do not use past expiration date" (it might explode instead) "do not use near flammable material" (it starts fires) "Use only outdoors" (the gas is toxic in large concentrations)

Please go back to your arm chair and reconsider your knowledge of the subject.  You could go look up police grade tear gas canisters and launchers, and you could also look into smoke, and you'll find two things. 1) they are not similar.  2) you didn't know what you were talking abou ...


Having direct personal experience = armchair?
2013-04-20 03:17:47 PM
1 votes:

Kahabut: I have a practical experiment for you.  Pull the pin on a tear gas can, and hold it in your bare hands for 10 minutes.  You should probably get a mask.  I'll bet anything you care to match that you can't hold that can for more than a minute after you pull the pin.  Do you have some idea why?

Tear gas canisters are a dry chemical mix, and they produce gas by BURNING at over 450 degrees.  The heat is spread to the outer walls of the can and it can ignite any number of things.  It can also have fire actually spitting out the top of the can.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of you...gentlemen arguing over this, as it's super clear none of you has ever actually seen a tear gas can, much less operated one.


From http://www.justice.gov/publications/waco/wacotwelve.html

 "In the meantime, at 6:00 a.m. HRT Commander Rogers received confirmation that Sage had made telephonic contact with the compound. Rogers ordered CEV-1 to insert gas, using the Mark-V liquid injection system to insert CS gas at the front-left corner of the building. The Mark-V system is a liquid tear gas dispenser that shoots a stream of liquid tear gas (propelled by noncombustible carbon dioxide) approximately 50 feet for a duration of approximately 15 seconds. "

They weren't lobbing incendiary cannisters when the fire broke out.  They were directly injecting CS gas (in liquid form) using carbon dioxide as a propellant.
2013-04-20 03:13:30 PM
1 votes:

Delawheredad: Except that the government ordered a hundred body bags before the siege even started.


So if I can show you a procurement order for hundreds of body bags by a disaster relief organization when Hurricane Sandy hit, will you conclude they were ready to slaughter flood survivors?

Contingency planning, how does it work?
2013-04-20 03:13:09 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: OR you can actually go by actual evidence rather than speculation.

They admit to pumping large amounts of tear gas into a structure.  This means that the air was thick with CS gas, and eventually the flammable dust.
They admit to shooting tear gas canisters in with 40mm launchers.


And if CS gas were as flammable as you think, I would not be here today telling you that you're a fool.

Read and address this point: I have been in an enclosed space with CS gas too thick to see through, in the presence of an ignition source. They put more CS gas pellets on the burner than you would ever see used in real life. The concentration ramped from negligible content to ridiculous concentration. If CS gas were as flammable as you posit, I should have been incinerated. Why am I alive?
2013-04-20 03:12:43 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: MisterRonbo: pedrop357: Forgot to mention that that must explain the police officers caught on camera saying things like "burn the mother farker out", etc.

I'm sure you have a citation for that.

And since it took six hours from the time tear gas was deployed until the fire started, I guess it has some amazing time delay feature before it ignites, right?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9868110/P ol ice-tried-to-burn-out-Christopher-Dorner.html


Except your "burn the mother farker out" comment was in response to  Waco.  Specifically Waco, explicitly Waco, and most definitely not Dorner.

Did you think I wouldn't notice that little lie?
2013-04-20 03:11:47 PM
1 votes:

Keizer_Ghidorah: but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit


Except prior to this big mess, the ATF was invited by Koresh to the compound to inspect their operation, and the evidence for "illegal weapons" was nothing more than an ATF agent's unsubstantiated opinion with nothing even approaching proof.  Additionally, the local sheriff (who along with other state officials would have been the appropriate authorities to deal with any child abuse allegations) knew Koresh well and was completely left out of the loop when the ATF decided to go in guns-a-blazin'.  None of what happened at Waco had to happen.  As the Branch Davidians held a federal firearms license (and had for some time), the ATF had the right to inspect their records and inventory peacefully, but they *chose* not to even after Koresh's invitation to do so.
2013-04-20 03:11:42 PM
1 votes:

Kahabut: Keizer_Ghidorah: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

"Incendiary tear gas"? Does he think that it's MEANT to ignite after being deployed?

I have a practical experiment for you.  Pull the pin on a tear gas can, and hold it in your bare hands for 10 minutes.  You should probably get a mask.  I'll bet anything you care to match that you can't hold that can for more than a minute after you pull the pin.  Do you have some idea why?

Tear gas canisters are a dry chemical mix, and they produce gas by BURNING at over 450 degrees.  The heat is spread to the outer walls of the can and it can ignite any number of things.  It can also have fire actually spitting out the top of the can.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of you...gentlemen arguing over this, as it's super clear none of you has ever actually seen a tear gas can, much less operated one.


Well, I have actually, personally used a lot more smoke than CS.
But I have been around a lot of other people's CS.
And direct answer, yes, CS held in mine own hand, where it is safe to use. BTW, don't put your face close to the business end. Hot!

"My Military ID number is  ***-**-***, Drill Sargent!" was just the first of many.

/WP is my absolute fave, but you have to have a damned good reason cooked up for after the fact
2013-04-20 03:08:35 PM
1 votes:

Kahabut: Keizer_Ghidorah: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

"Incendiary tear gas"? Does he think that it's MEANT to ignite after being deployed?

I have a practical experiment for you.  Pull the pin on a tear gas can, and hold it in your bare hands for 10 minutes.  You should probably get a mask.  I'll bet anything you care to match that you can't hold that can for more than a minute after you pull the pin.  Do you have some idea why?

Tear gas canisters are a dry chemical mix, and they produce gas by BURNING at over 450 degrees.  The heat is spread to the outer walls of the can and it can ignite any number of things.  It can also have fire actually spitting out the top of the can.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of you...gentlemen arguing over this, as it's super clear none of you has ever actually seen a tear gas can, much less operated one.


Sup, I have used smoke grenades. CS gas canisters are just dirty smoke grenades. I've been in heavily concentrated areas of CS gas while in the presence of an ignition source.

You are full of shiat. The actual heat source inside the canister gets very hot, but while the casing does get too hot to touch, that doesn't mean the casing is as hot as the heat source. In fact, it would be just about impossible for the canister to reach the same temperature as the fuel/heat source. You can pick up a smoke grenade and throw it again while it's burning without searing your skin.

Have YOU started a fire using a smoke grenade and no additional source of easily combustible fuel? Because I've thrown those farkers around in the middle of a pine forest covered in dead pine needles.
2013-04-20 03:03:38 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: Right. You have to purposefully MAKE things of this nature ignite. It's not going to just happen when you use one.

If you launch one into an area with a far more easily combustible substance - e.g. the gasoline/kerosene that was spread around - it might ignite. But that's not a foreseeable situation. Who would have assumed they covered their compound in fuel?

Or the explosive charge that deploys the gas is the right temperature to ignite it, or is close enough to a sufficiently and properly concentrated amount.

OR you deploy quarts of it through a nozzle on a tank and the stuff lingers long enough for the dust to reach flammable concentrations , THEN you begin tossing in the in the ones that use incendiary charges to deploy.


OR you can actually go by actual evidence rather than speculation.
2013-04-20 02:59:18 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Forgot to mention that that must explain the police officers caught on camera saying things like "burn the mother farker out", etc.


I'm sure you have a citation for that.

And since it took six hours from the time tear gas was deployed until the fire started, I guess it has some amazing time delay feature before it ignites, right?
2013-04-20 02:55:35 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice


Yes, if something gets hot enough. Like, say, if there's a gasoline fire lit by a psychotic cult.
2013-04-20 02:53:02 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Wise_Guy: EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?

citationneeded.jpg

See Waco, Dorner, numerous discussions by the police about how they try to keep their tear gas deployment from starting fires.


So Waco proves Waco?  And where are the numerous police discussions?
2013-04-20 02:52:16 PM
1 votes:

Chunks McGunks: There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire? Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html#started

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberately set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)
2013-04-20 02:52:00 PM
1 votes:

LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.


shiat, if it were that flammable, the heat source inside the canister would essentially turn every CS grenade into a fuel-air bomb.
2013-04-20 02:50:30 PM
1 votes:

snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)


Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.
2013-04-20 02:49:13 PM
1 votes:

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?

So it's just a coincidence that it's also highly flammable?

No, tear gas no flammable at all.  What are you talking about?


shiat, if tear gas were flammable, I would have burned alive when they used it on us as part of NBC (Not the TV network) training. The way that they exposed us was using raw pellets of the stuff on a burner. The air was so thick with it you could barely see. Lighters were lit to gauge visibility. If tear GAS were flammable, that hut would have exploded on the first spark.

/we were told NOT to put our gear on until we had been heavily exposed
//They were, apparently, not serious about that, and were just farking with my whole platoon to see how long we'd stand there in tear gas
///The answer to their unasked question, however, was that we'd stand there until ordered not to.
2013-04-20 02:48:10 PM
1 votes:

EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?


citationneeded.jpg
2013-04-20 02:47:39 PM
1 votes:
Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)
2013-04-20 02:45:02 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.


Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters do get hot and can start a fire, but tear gas itself is not flammable.  The are called pyrotechnic not because they produce a flammable gas but because a pyrotechnic reaction is used to release a smoke cloud along with the tear gas.
2013-04-20 02:44:39 PM
1 votes:
Wait, so some people think that tear gas is flammable because the nickname for them is "burners"?

Because clearly, "burner" can have only one meaning.
2013-04-20 02:40:29 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.

Yet the government always confronts them in the most aggressive, frontal, almost antagnostic manner possible.

Apparently it's never possible to quietly arrest the leader when he's on his regular jog, and is impossible to show up with a warrant in hand to demand entry.  Nope, gotta go into full surprise assault mode.

What happened to the front door that the BD members claim was proof that the government was shooting through closed doors?  Who had the warrant in their possession to show to anyone who demanded it?  Who announced themselves as law enforcement officials with a warrant?

If a cult tomorrow said that the end would happen when the government starts crashing helicopters into their compound, I'm sure some government official would suggest dive bombing the compound with drone helicopters.


They did show up with a warrant and were shot at.

Did you think all those tanks and stuff showed up just to arrest Koresh on day 1?
2013-04-20 02:36:28 PM
1 votes:

machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.


Allegedly. The government conveniently never had to prove it in a trial.
2013-04-20 02:33:57 PM
1 votes:

pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.


Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?
2013-04-20 02:32:33 PM
1 votes:
When the jackbooted thugs show up at your door you have 2 choices: live or die.
The Davidians used the children as shields thinking as long as they had them no harm would come.
Ruby Ridge was just A-holes.
They chose poorly.
If the Marathon bomber goes to trial,a good lawyer could argue because of his age and he idolized his big brother he will probably get life.
I believe he should get the death sentence.
2013-04-20 02:27:46 PM
1 votes:

Mock26: Peter von Nostrand: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Not much. I think most people would agree that the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.

Yes, the government should have handled it better.  But, then again, the cultists should have obeyed the law better.


You'll note that the few who survived were acquitted of nearly everything.
2013-04-20 02:25:26 PM
1 votes:

YixilTesiphon: TV's Vinnie: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

The FBI nor ATF did that. It was all Koresh's fault. He ordered his slaves to set those fires. He'd rather take down himself and everyone around him in flames than face the music for his kiddy-diddling.

It was the FBI/ATF who shot at the exits during the fire, though.


Um, no. They didn't. STFU.
2013-04-20 02:25:20 PM
1 votes:

Peter von Nostrand: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Not much. I think most people would agree that the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.


Yes, the government should have handled it better.  But, then again, the cultists should have obeyed the law better.
2013-04-20 02:11:35 PM
1 votes:

Delawheredad: Except that the government ordered a hundred body bags before the siege even started.(According to the Philadelphia Inquirer the day after the fire.) No one was ever supposed to get out of there. The day the Davidians  killed ATF agents their days were numbered.


You forgot the reverse vampires and the reptilian shapeshifters.
2013-04-20 02:08:25 PM
1 votes:

Delawheredad: Except that the government ordered a hundred body bags before the siege even started.(According to the Philadelphia Inquirer the day after the fire.) No one was ever supposed to get out of there. The day the Davidians  killed ATF agents their days were numbered.


Or, y'know, the Davidians had been stockpiling weapons and were known to be violent, so the government was prepared for them to put up a big fight, or for them to pull a Jonestown and off themselves rather than face justice.
2013-04-20 02:06:57 PM
1 votes:

snocone: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

Yup, same "tear gas", eh?


You're too stupid to have this conversation with. Go on the roof and watch for helicopters or jump off.
2013-04-20 01:47:18 PM
1 votes:

p89tech: 2000+ years later, it's still real to Christains. (Sorry, but trolls gotta troll.)


I don't know.  That doesn't really seem like much of a troll.  You're actually right whether you believe in Jesus or not.
2013-04-20 01:40:50 PM
1 votes:
Whatever did happen to those big steel doors?
2013-04-20 01:39:22 PM
1 votes:

Badafuco: Haha! Oh I remember that!

[i763.photobucket.com image 274x369]




Clinton had no attorney general when the raid took place. His first two choices for AG had to with draw after it was revealed one was once a Playboy bunny and the other employed illegal aliens.

Reno took over after it was a two month old clusterfook.

/of course, now a days the Branch Davidians would simoly be called terrorist and no tears would be shed as they burned
2013-04-20 01:38:53 PM
1 votes:

Chunks McGunks: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?


Not disagreeing with this at all (personally I believe the government agents probably accidentally started the fire), but wasn't it part of the official report that the ATF planted microphones in the walls of the complex and they managed to pick up bits and pieces of conversations from the church members referring to burning the place down to the ground? I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that as part of the "proof" that the Branch members started the fires, which was presented on tape in the investigation that followed this debacle. My googlefu is weak at work right now, so correct if wrong.
2013-04-20 01:38:35 PM
1 votes:
Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?
2013-04-20 01:26:59 PM
1 votes:
Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?
2013-04-20 01:24:23 PM
1 votes:
Burned Alive > Statutory Rape
2013-04-20 01:23:18 PM
1 votes:
I was in high school (our teacher made us watch them burn up, live as it happened, looking back he may have been in a teabagger before there was a word for them) I read the People Magazine article on it and watched the Movie of the Week but damn if I know what it accomplished.
2013-04-20 01:22:42 PM
1 votes:

Peter von Nostrand: the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.


So, the feds shouldn't have been there, just like with Ruby Ridge?

If the dude was raping kids - and why else do people start cults - then he could have been arrested when out on his daily run.
2013-04-20 01:20:22 PM
1 votes:

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


Just maybe it woke a few sheeple up.
Obviously not enough.
2013-04-20 01:16:53 PM
1 votes:

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?



It rid the country of a number of dangerous and potentially dangerous criminals. That they took innocents with them is no one's fault but the dead criminals.

Have no problem with it.

I was curious, however, to see one of th main FBI guys on tv this week crying his eyes out over the outcome.
2013-04-20 01:14:37 PM
1 votes:
Any time the feds get involved the end result rests with them. Good or bad.
2013-04-20 12:40:16 PM
1 votes:

ytterbium: "...a portly herbalist who lost a foot in a tractor accident."

This keeps making me chortle.


That was pretty good. Got a laugh from me.
2013-04-20 12:36:37 PM
1 votes:

Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs


Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?
2013-04-20 12:22:57 PM
1 votes:

2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.


So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?
2013-04-20 11:07:42 AM
1 votes:
"...a portly herbalist who lost a foot in a tractor accident."

This keeps making me chortle.
2013-04-20 09:29:12 AM
1 votes:
*facepalm*
 
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