If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(NPR)   20 years after Waco, it's still real to the Branch Davidians   (npr.org) divider line 296
    More: Strange, Branch Davidians, Waco, David Koresh, prophecies, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives  
•       •       •

10595 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Apr 2013 at 1:10 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



296 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-04-20 04:11:50 PM
2000 years from now, ( A.B.D. 2000 ) the various warring sects of Davidianism will come together for the anticipated Third Coming of the Millennium. Worshiping at the base of the Holy Hand Grenade, their High Priests (Surrounded by thier 12 Y/O acolytes) will administer the sacred BBQ and LoneStar to the faithful.

Amen
 
2013-04-20 04:12:32 PM

redmid17: It was violent, but it was definitely hostile. BD knew they were coming. The feds knew that BD knew they were coming. Yet they still conducted an idiotic raid with a huge show of force when they easily could have nabbed Koresh or many of the other BDs who commonly went to sell guns at gun shows.


It sort of fits with a "lets impress the new boss" attitude.  If you wanted to connect it to Reno, I give this a higher possibility than a bond-villain plot of hers to snuff out a religious organization.  She wasn't even running the show when it started.
 
2013-04-20 04:14:29 PM

Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs


Yeah the government would never do that on purpose. There's no audio of the cops saying burn the cabin down last month when the cop killer was in L.A. up in the hills.

Ignorance must be bliss.
 
2013-04-20 04:15:51 PM

redmid17: Wise_Guy: universebetween: isnt there a video out there that clearly shows a flamethrower spewing flames off the front of the tank?

I know I saw it. it was a longtime ago but still.

No.

I think he means this video

It's pretty grainy, so I don't know if it actually shows anything


that would be one of the version yes. pretty much yea.

I guess it wasnt a flamethrower it was gas but the gas was well known to be very flammable. so its near negligence to me
 
2013-04-20 04:19:08 PM

universebetween: redmid17: Wise_Guy: universebetween: isnt there a video out there that clearly shows a flamethrower spewing flames off the front of the tank?

I know I saw it. it was a longtime ago but still.

No.

I think he means this video

It's pretty grainy, so I don't know if it actually shows anything

that would be one of the version yes. pretty much yea.

I guess it wasnt a flamethrower it was gas but the gas was well known to be very flammable. so its near negligence to me


The tanks fired liquid CS propelled with very non-flammable CO2.

They address the woman's video here (#7):  http://www.justice.gov/publications/waco/wacotwelve.html
 
2013-04-20 04:21:13 PM

Fade2black: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Yeah the government would never do that on purpose. There's no audio of the cops saying burn the cabin down last month when the cop killer was in L.A. up in the hills.

Ignorance must be bliss.


One doesn't prove the other.
 
2013-04-20 04:22:28 PM
"The Branch Davidians, including children, were being readied for the imminent end of the world (hence Koresh's nickname for the compound, Ranch Apocalypse.) ... Even the youngest members were taught how to handle guns. They were instructed in the most lethal suicide techniques with firearms, being told to aim for the 'soft spot' in the back of the mouth if they faced capture by the 'Babylonians.' " pg 58

"One of my next interviews was with a little girl, almost six years old. I asked her to draw a picture of her home. She drew a picture of the compound. Then I asked her what she thought was going to happen at home. She redrew the same compound with flames everywhere. Atop it was a stairway to heaven." p 70

"During that time other children drew pictures of fire and explosions as well; some even said things like,
'We're going to blow you all up.' and 'Everyone is going to die.' " pg 70

The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog
Bruice D Perry Md, PhD

The above information came directly from the 21 Waco children released in the three days following the initial confrontation on February 28.
 
2013-04-20 04:27:01 PM
Imagine the Fark thread if that had existed back then?
 
2013-04-20 04:35:15 PM

Altitude5280: Imagine the Fark thread if that had existed back then?


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-20 04:35:16 PM

mikaloyd: Tanks dont cause fires. Davidians do


🎶Be do be do be do...🎶
 
2013-04-20 04:54:46 PM

namegoeshere: "The Branch Davidians, including children, were being readied for the imminent end of the world (hence Koresh's nickname for the compound, Ranch Apocalypse.) ... Even the youngest members were taught how to handle guns. They were instructed in the most lethal suicide techniques with firearms, being told to aim for the 'soft spot' in the back of the mouth if they faced capture by the 'Babylonians.' " pg 58

"One of my next interviews was with a little girl, almost six years old. I asked her to draw a picture of her home. She drew a picture of the compound. Then I asked her what she thought was going to happen at home. She redrew the same compound with flames everywhere. Atop it was a stairway to heaven." p 70

"During that time other children drew pictures of fire and explosions as well; some even said things like,
'We're going to blow you all up.' and 'Everyone is going to die.' " pg 70

The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog
Bruice D Perry Md, PhD

The above information came directly from the 21 Waco children released in the three days following the initial confrontation on February 28.


This clearly proves the Davidians were told by God that the FBI would burn down the place.
 
2013-04-20 04:58:32 PM
Does no one want to talk about Mr Koresh's history of arson?
 
2013-04-20 05:01:36 PM
Regardless of how the fire got started the whole response by the FBI/ATF was way overblown imo.  After 51 days and manpower and money being spent they just decided to end it one way or another.  If the government believed Koresh was crazy and would do anything to preserve his cult, why the fark would you full on assault the place when you know there are innocent children inside and he may snap Jonestown style?  Why wasnt this considered a hostage situation, if the government really believed that was what was going on in there?  Can you think of any situation where kids are involved with a supposed crazy person that they would order armored vehicles to start knocking down the walls?  If Koresh was looking for an apocalypse, the ATF sure played their part out correctly.

Consider that after the initial raid attempt there were no more gunfire exchanges or loss of life (until the final second assault anyway).  Koresh on 2 occasions allowed women and children to leave the compound.  They had already cut the electricity and the water.  The feds could have waited it out.  I suspect more members would have left and if there was to be a fiery end, fewer innocents would have died.

The whole thing was bungled and the blame can be spread to everyone involved.
 
2013-04-20 05:03:03 PM

2wolves: Does no one want to talk about Mr Koresh's history of arson?


Wiki article has nothing on it.  Which court was he convicted in?
 
2013-04-20 05:03:56 PM
Strange the ATF brought their own film crew with them.
 I seem to remember they were trying to boost their own budget and were talks of folding them into the FBI .

Or why didn't just grab Koresh off the street ?

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-20 05:04:56 PM

Altitude5280: Imagine the Fark thread if that had existed back then?


A 51 day siege?  That would have resulted in an epic thread chain.  The most I can remember was about 30 during the Iran Revolution.
 
2013-04-20 05:07:28 PM

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: Strange the ATF brought their own film crew with them.
 I seem to remember they were trying to boost their own budget and were talks of folding them into the FBI .

Or why didn't just grab Koresh off the street ?

[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 299x168]


They had to do something to distract everyone from the debacle that was Ruby Ridge and all the allegations of sexual abuse and improper behavior.
 
2013-04-20 05:07:57 PM

jaytkay: April 19th = Conservative Hero Day
[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x254] [www.bluecorncomics.com image 178x254]


That's too retarded to get you a 2/10. Really, really retarded.  But you do get a 1/10 since I responded, so derp's that....
 
2013-04-20 05:15:06 PM

The Dog Ate My Homework: It's OK if these people were violating all kinds of laws and that they murdered several federal agents, because they're white Christians.


I don't think that is the argument.   The argument is that this operations was poorly executed by Federal law enforcement and that there were other ways to have handled it that would of limited the risk to the children.

Perhaps arresting Koresh on his way to town when the was outside the security of  his fortress/compound and away from the children instead of putting on a show for the cameras with a dynamic entry raid.

With Koresh in custody you have taken off the head of the cult and they would probably have surrendered peacefully and you would not have had a bunch of dead kids.
 
2013-04-20 05:38:41 PM
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
People think this was a bad thing? Really?
 
2013-04-20 05:39:44 PM

Wise_Guy: This clearly proves the Davidians were told by God that the FBI would burn down the place.


Does that work? Let's see... I was just told by God that you, Wise Guy, would give me a month of TF.

Waiting...

In all seriousness, the BDs and Koresh were preparing for the epic battle that would end the world and deliver them all to Crazy Cult Heaven long before the Feds knocked on their door. I agree that the Feds handled the situation badly (understatement) by playing directly into Koresh's CrazymanProphet Us Against The Evil Babylonians Apocalypse fantasy. But the fire wasn't on the Feds. That was a mass suicide planned long before the Feds stopped by.
 
2013-04-20 05:55:22 PM
Sometimes religious nuttery is an incurable condition.
 
2013-04-20 06:03:41 PM

hasty ambush: The Dog Ate My Homework: It's OK if these people were violating all kinds of laws and that they murdered several federal agents, because they're white Christians.

I don't think that is the argument.   The argument is that this operations was poorly executed by Federal law enforcement and that there were other ways to have handled it that would of limited the risk to the children.

Perhaps arresting Koresh on his way to town when the was outside the security of  his fortress/compound and away from the children instead of putting on a show for the cameras with a dynamic entry raid.

With Koresh in custody you have taken off the head of the cult and they would probably have surrendered peacefully and you would not have had a bunch of dead kids.


The local sheriff had pretty much been telling the ATF that since July of 93.
 
2013-04-20 06:06:30 PM

redmid17: HempHead: Badafuco: Haha! Oh I remember that!

[i763.photobucket.com image 274x369]

Clinton had no attorney general when the raid took place. His first two choices for AG had to with draw after it was revealed one was once a Playboy bunny and the other employed illegal aliens.

Reno took over after it was a two month old clusterfook.

/of course, now a days the Branch Davidians would simoly be called terrorist and no tears would be shed as they burned

Reno was appointed before this started and was in office less than two weeks into the siege.




It was a clusterfook long before Feb 28. At least back when the ATF undercover agent inside the compound was first discovered by Koresh.
 
2013-04-20 06:20:35 PM
White people find stuff while brown people loot.

White people safeguard their rights by stockpiling guns and explosives while brown folk form terror cells.
 
2013-04-20 06:22:33 PM

MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.


I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.
 
2013-04-20 06:31:11 PM

Silverstaff: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.


He was very throrough
 
2013-04-20 07:13:20 PM
I thought the raid on the Branch Davidians was the ONE TRUE accomplishment that Bill Clinton achieved, and I say that unironically.
 
2013-04-20 07:23:17 PM

YixilTesiphon: Peter von Nostrand: the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.

So, the feds shouldn't have been there, just like with Ruby Ridge?

If the dude was raping kids - and why else do people start cults - then he could have been arrested when out on his daily run.


This.  1-Sir, he's unarmed and carrying a bag of groceries.  Should we arrest him?
2-No, wait until he's in his heavily armed compound with 70 other equally insane people.
 
2013-04-20 07:25:24 PM
I don't think anyone picked up on this, but the "Hawaiian restaurant" Paul Fatta owns is the BIG KAHUNAS! Yes, the "tasty burger" from pulp fiction. See for yourself:

http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/San-Diego/paul-fatta/44228 07 8.aspx
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2009/jun/24/big-kahuna-flavors/

Apparently it was started by his grandfather.
 
2013-04-20 07:42:27 PM

pedrop357: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

What illegal weapons?  When did allegations of sexual abuse become the province of the ATF?


None of the weapons they had were illegal. ATF escalated because the BD's refused to let them come in and poke around.
 
2013-04-20 07:50:47 PM
Dr.Mxyzptlk.

Strange the ATF brought their own film crew with them. I seem to remember they were trying to boost their own budget and were talks of folding them into the FBI . Or why didn't just grab Koresh off the street ?

Or just pull him over when he drove into town, which he did all the time.   Piece of cake.

It looked like they wanted a spectacular takedown video of a hippie compound and a "rescue" of all the hippies including photogenic kids.

It was going to be great PR.

/ The rest is unfortunately history.
 
2013-04-20 07:58:01 PM

UNC_Samurai: It's hard to let go of your cult.



Yeah, ask former members of the FBI, ATF, CIA, DHS and similar cults.
 
2013-04-20 08:04:45 PM

stjohn: pedrop357: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

What illegal weapons?  When did allegations of sexual abuse become the province of the ATF?

None of the weapons they had were illegal. ATF escalated because the BD's refused to let them come in and poke around.


The worst part is that the ATF did come in and inspect a lot of the "materiel" and refused to talk to Koresh over the phone while at the compound. Instead of listening to the sheriff to "go and talk to them" they set up shiatty surveillance for 6 months. The fact that one of the guys was an FFL and the ATF knew they went out of their way to ensure their paperwork was correct was just icing on the cake.
 
2013-04-20 08:12:13 PM

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?



It taught us Uhmaricuns to RESPEC AUTHORITAY@!
 
2013-04-20 08:17:41 PM

Chunks McGunks: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?



History.

The Davidians didn't get a chance to write it.
 
2013-04-20 08:20:05 PM

generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?



You can't blame people for wanting to TOTALLY hold the government blameless in ANY such act.

They don't want to be the next to burn.
 
2013-04-20 08:25:44 PM
Skimming the comments.

The tombstone of the USA should read:

It Can't Happen Here.
 
2013-04-20 08:34:53 PM

Matthew Keene: snocone: I love the smell of thermite on 6" steel in the morning!

[the-trukstop.com image 300x438]


No, No!
Jet fuel on people is way different.
 
2013-04-20 09:16:58 PM

leadmetal: Skimming the comments.

The tombstone of the USA should read:

It Can't Happen Here.



LOL!


and amen
 
2013-04-20 09:41:15 PM

MisterRonbo: Chunks McGunks: There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire? Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html#started

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberately set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)


Thank you, I could not find this for shiat.  It's all that needs to be said on the subject for those with open minds.
 
2013-04-20 09:55:55 PM
Came for this:
i235.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-20 11:20:45 PM
RyogaM

It's all that needs to be said on the subject for those with open minds.

Because open minds are known for shutting down when commanded to do so.  Yes SIR!

(Fortunately I have a closed mind)

I'm so closed-minded I don't know how the fire started because I wasn't inside the compound and didn't see it happen.   I do know that the feds were frustrated.  They had lost the shootout, and were losing the stalemate as more and more people started rooting for the Davidians.  Fifty days or something, right?  That's a long time to sit around waiting for someone to give up.

A closed-minded person might think that burning them out had at some point crossed someone's mind.  The normal way it works is you light the enemy hideout, and they coming running into the open, whether they want to or not.  The same human instinct that can get people to jump out a 100th floor window to escape being burned alive will cause even the strongest-willed people to flee a burning house.

That same closed-minded individual might also observe that the fire just so happened to start on a real windy day, and at about the same locations and times that holes were breached in the compound by armored vehicles, which just by random chance happened to attack from the upwind side of the building.

This stuff I know because I watched it happen on live TV.

But then something went wrong.  Nobody of them came out, not that I saw on TV anyway.

I found it perplexing.
 
2013-04-20 11:57:27 PM

generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?


Are people still clinging to the notion that the police were responsible for Dorner's death when all he had to do was come out of the cabin?
 
2013-04-21 12:01:51 AM

Silverstaff: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.


If I were holed up in a cabin that had caught fire and my legs still worked, I would try to leave. Didn't read anything about the cops breaking his legs.
 
2013-04-21 12:02:55 AM

Silverstaff: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.


Also, it wasn't HIS cabin, dumbcluck.
 
2013-04-21 12:03:46 AM

B.L.Z. Bub: generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?

Are people still clinging to the notion that the police were responsible for Dorner's death when all he had to do was come out of the cabin?


Hey, I'm not responsible for killing that woman, all she had to do was cooperate and let me have sex with her.

Aren't the police supposed to be the better ones?
 
2013-04-21 12:14:44 AM

pedrop357: B.L.Z. Bub: generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?

Are people still clinging to the notion that the police were responsible for Dorner's death when all he had to do was come out of the cabin?

Hey, I'm not responsible for killing that woman, all she had to do was cooperate and let me have sex with her.

Aren't the police supposed to be the better ones?


Looks like we found Glenn Beck's fark handle.

Where were you in 1990?
 
2013-04-21 12:15:31 AM

studebaker hoch: RyogaM

It's all that needs to be said on the subject for those with open minds.

Because open minds are known for shutting down when commanded to do so.  Yes SIR!

(Fortunately I have a closed mind)

I'm so closed-minded I don't know how the fire started because I wasn't inside the compound and didn't see it happen.   I do know that the feds were frustrated.  They had lost the shootout, and were losing the stalemate as more and more people started rooting for the Davidians.  Fifty days or something, right?  That's a long time to sit around waiting for someone to give up.

A closed-minded person might think that burning them out had at some point crossed someone's mind.  The normal way it works is you light the enemy hideout, and they coming running into the open, whether they want to or not.  The same human instinct that can get people to jump out a 100th floor window to escape being burned alive will cause even the strongest-willed people to flee a burning house.

That same closed-minded individual might also observe that the fire just so happened to start on a real windy day, and at about the same locations and times that holes were breached in the compound by armored vehicles, which just by random chance happened to attack from the upwind side of the building.

This stuff I know because I watched it happen on live TV.

But then something went wrong.  Nobody of them came out, not that I saw on TV anyway.

I found it perplexing.



How did you manage to evade my "favorites" list thus far?


Fixed.

Positive or negative?

You decide.
 
2013-04-21 12:15:39 AM

pedrop357: B.L.Z. Bub: generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?

Are people still clinging to the notion that the police were responsible for Dorner's death when all he had to do was come out of the cabin?

Hey, I'm not responsible for killing that woman, all she had to do was cooperate and let me have sex with her.

Aren't the police supposed to be the better ones?


The police weren't threatening Dorner with anything he didn't bring on himself, so no, it is not the same as your threatened rape scenario.

Also, they tried to be the "better ones" by giving him the chance to turn himself in peacefully, but he turned them down. They're not obligated to risk their lives unnecessarily. Since Dorner wouldn't come out even when the farking cabin was on fire, what do you think would have been the result of them going in? Were they obligated to give up their lives to certain death for his sake?
 
Displayed 50 of 296 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report