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(NPR)   20 years after Waco, it's still real to the Branch Davidians   (npr.org) divider line 296
    More: Strange, Branch Davidians, Waco, David Koresh, prophecies, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives  
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10601 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Apr 2013 at 1:10 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-20 02:31:13 PM

Delawheredad: I'm not a conspiracy theorist but WACO was a clusterfark from the beginning. EVERYTHING the FBI and ATF did reinforced the BD's beliefs that Armageddon was at hand.


A minor earthquake in Pakistan or the birth of an albino cow in Israel reinforces idiot's belief that Armageddon is at hand.
If you went tip-toeing around all day being careful not to reinforce the idea that Armageddon is at hand, you wouldn't get much done.
 
2013-04-20 02:31:39 PM

pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Love how many here are 100% absolutely sure that the government slaughtered a bunch of innocent Christians because "I don't like the government and I heard they do mean things so everything bad is all their fault".

Did a quick thread scan, seems like you're the only one saying that.

The vibes I'm getting say otherwise. "If the government had only done this", "If they'd just left those people alone", "This way/that/way/government burned all those kids".

Agreed on all 3 points.  The government is supposed to be staffed with trained, professional, restrained people, yet everything they did was a clusterfark from the beginning and reeks of illegal, unethical, and/or unconstitutional activities by the government, just like at Ruby Ridge.


Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.
 
2013-04-20 02:31:57 PM

machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.


Yeah, another few kids and a few more slaves and these guys would be on par with the founding fathers.  We can't have that.
 
2013-04-20 02:32:33 PM
When the jackbooted thugs show up at your door you have 2 choices: live or die.
The Davidians used the children as shields thinking as long as they had them no harm would come.
Ruby Ridge was just A-holes.
They chose poorly.
If the Marathon bomber goes to trial,a good lawyer could argue because of his age and he idolized his big brother he will probably get life.
I believe he should get the death sentence.
 
2013-04-20 02:33:21 PM

Delawheredad: There is NO OTHER OPTION.


Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

Seriously, though, absolutes in a case like this are retarded.
 
2013-04-20 02:33:57 PM

pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.


Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?
 
2013-04-20 02:34:20 PM

Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!


"Incendiary tear gas"? Does he think that it's MEANT to ignite after being deployed?
 
2013-04-20 02:35:59 PM

pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.


On the other hand, the cops claim to be so stupid so as to not understand that "burner" means FIRE. "It was an accident", Lou.

I have to believe that they are that stupid, since they say so, and they are The Law, but also less than truthful, so,,,
 
2013-04-20 02:36:28 PM

machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.


Allegedly. The government conveniently never had to prove it in a trial.
 
2013-04-20 02:36:46 PM

Keizer_Ghidorah: Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.


Yet the government always confronts them in the most aggressive, frontal, almost antagnostic manner possible.

Apparently it's never possible to quietly arrest the leader when he's on his regular jog, and is impossible to show up with a warrant in hand to demand entry.  Nope, gotta go into full surprise assault mode.

What happened to the front door that the BD members claim was proof that the government was shooting through closed doors?  Who had the warrant in their possession to show to anyone who demanded it?  Who announced themselves as law enforcement officials with a warrant?

If a cult tomorrow said that the end would happen when the government starts crashing helicopters into their compound, I'm sure some government official would suggest dive bombing the compound with drone helicopters.
 
2013-04-20 02:37:33 PM

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?


So it's just a coincidence that it's also highly flammable?
 
2013-04-20 02:38:51 PM
Liberal/Progressive Meme

1. Children burned alive okay
2. Resisting authority not okay
3. Janet Reno is hot
 
2013-04-20 02:40:29 PM

pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.

Yet the government always confronts them in the most aggressive, frontal, almost antagnostic manner possible.

Apparently it's never possible to quietly arrest the leader when he's on his regular jog, and is impossible to show up with a warrant in hand to demand entry.  Nope, gotta go into full surprise assault mode.

What happened to the front door that the BD members claim was proof that the government was shooting through closed doors?  Who had the warrant in their possession to show to anyone who demanded it?  Who announced themselves as law enforcement officials with a warrant?

If a cult tomorrow said that the end would happen when the government starts crashing helicopters into their compound, I'm sure some government official would suggest dive bombing the compound with drone helicopters.


They did show up with a warrant and were shot at.

Did you think all those tanks and stuff showed up just to arrest Koresh on day 1?
 
2013-04-20 02:41:11 PM

Wise_Guy: Tear gas isn't flammable. It burns your eyes and throat. "Burners" -- get it?


Forgot to mention that that must explain the police officers caught on camera saying things like "burn the mother farker out", etc.

They must have been talking about burning his eyes and throat until he came out, right?

Amazing that they don't just say CS or tear gas.  "Deployed CS to section 7", "Inserted two tear gas into corner 3", etc.
 
2013-04-20 02:41:14 PM

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.

Yet the government always confronts them in the most aggressive, frontal, almost antagnostic manner possible.

Apparently it's never possible to quietly arrest the leader when he's on his regular jog, and is impossible to show up with a warrant in hand to demand entry.  Nope, gotta go into full surprise assault mode.

What happened to the front door that the BD members claim was proof that the government was shooting through closed doors?  Who had the warrant in their possession to show to anyone who demanded it?  Who announced themselves as law enforcement officials with a warrant?

If a cult tomorrow said that the end would happen when the government starts crashing helicopters into their compound, I'm sure some government official would suggest dive bombing the compound with drone helicopters.

They did show up with a warrant and were shot at.

Did you think all those tanks and stuff showed up just to arrest Koresh on day 1?


That's just what they WANT you to think, man. Facts are a librul conspiracy.
 
2013-04-20 02:41:35 PM
Well lets burn down the Vatican and kill everyone there because a couple of them touched children, then.

No matter how you paint the branch davidians, the ATF response was insane.
 
2013-04-20 02:41:47 PM

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.

Yet the government always confronts them in the most aggressive, frontal, almost antagnostic manner possible.

Apparently it's never possible to quietly arrest the leader when he's on his regular jog, and is impossible to show up with a warrant in hand to demand entry.  Nope, gotta go into full surprise assault mode.

What happened to the front door that the BD members claim was proof that the government was shooting through closed doors?  Who had the warrant in their possession to show to anyone who demanded it?  Who announced themselves as law enforcement officials with a warrant?

If a cult tomorrow said that the end would happen when the government starts crashing helicopters into their compound, I'm sure some government official would suggest dive bombing the compound with drone helicopters.

They did show up with a warrant and were shot at.

Did you think all those tanks and stuff showed up just to arrest Koresh on day 1?


Who had the warrant and how did they try to present it?
 
2013-04-20 02:42:02 PM

doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?


Anyone who has been in any military that uses or has used tear gas or smoke grenades knows exactly how full of shiat you are.

Nobody who uses teargas calls them "burners." They are not intended to burn anything. Absent a copious amount of very combustible fuel of some kind, they won't start fires. I used smoke grenades in the middle of a dry forest in the high heat of summer in training with no issue. We're talking several inches of dry pine needles - practically begging for a forest fire.

I am so sick and tired of this stupid meme being trotted out every time Waco comes up.

Smoke grenades/tear gas grenades do not cause fires unless you try very hard to make them do that. For example, by covering the inside of the compound in gasoline or kerosene. Which there is ample evidence to support.
 
2013-04-20 02:42:08 PM

pedrop357: Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?

So it's just a coincidence that it's also highly flammable?


No, tear gas no flammable at all.  What are you talking about?
 
2013-04-20 02:43:58 PM

Delawheredad: As to the Waco tapes that proved the BD's lit the fire themselves. Colin Powell went to the U.N with tape recordings that "proved" Saddam Hussein was making anthrax and other biological terror weapons. The ATF and the FBi have very good reasons for making it seem as though they had no part in the fire..


Actually, it was 100% sure it was moved, what all was stuck me as funny  that in the Gulf War Hussein threatened the use of chemical weapons if Israel intervened, plus the fact that he used them during the original Iran-Iraq conflict and what about the entire town of Kurds he gassed in the late 1980s, killing thousands and genetically mutating the ones that live.

I guess because the weapons could not be found during the search, but years earlier he actually used them on people, gee does that invalidate it?

If it is proved that I shot someone years earlier, then I make threats years later, but the police cannot find my gun, does that make my threat any less?  It doesn't.

It was known he had them, known he used them, just because they could not be found does not invalidate their existence.
 
2013-04-20 02:44:20 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Liberal/Progressive Meme

1. Children burned alive okay
2. Resisting authority not okay
3. Janet Reno is hot


Who the hell said children being burned alive was okay?

Those responsible for it, however, burned to death with them.
 
2013-04-20 02:44:27 PM

Bongo Blue: When the jackbooted thugs show up at your door you have 2 choices: live or die.
The Davidians used the children as shields thinking as long as they had them no harm would come.
Ruby Ridge was just A-holes.
They chose poorly.
If the Marathon bomber goes to trial,a good lawyer could argue because of his age and he idolized his big brother he will probably get life.
I believe he should get the death sentence.


The problem with your theory is that no one wears jackboots anymore. Instead, they wear rubber soles with orthopedic inserts. It's all about lower back pain these days.
 
2013-04-20 02:44:39 PM
Wait, so some people think that tear gas is flammable because the nickname for them is "burners"?

Because clearly, "burner" can have only one meaning.
 
2013-04-20 02:44:48 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Liberal/Progressive Meme

1. Children burned alive okay
2. Resisting authority not okay
3. Janet Reno is hot


It is for the good of the collective
 
2013-04-20 02:45:02 PM

pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.


Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters do get hot and can start a fire, but tear gas itself is not flammable.  The are called pyrotechnic not because they produce a flammable gas but because a pyrotechnic reaction is used to release a smoke cloud along with the tear gas.
 
2013-04-20 02:45:29 PM
From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?
 
2013-04-20 02:47:39 PM
Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)
 
2013-04-20 02:47:50 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Wait, so some people think that tear gas is flammable because the nickname for them is "burners"?

Because clearly, "burner" can have only one meaning.


No, because right after deploying them fires start.  Take note that Grain dust is explosive.

Seemingly inert aerosols can be flammable, especially in high concentrations, not to mention the explosive charge used in the type of tear gas deployed by the police is also flammable and be the thing that ignites the tear gas.
 
2013-04-20 02:48:10 PM

EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?


citationneeded.jpg
 
2013-04-20 02:49:13 PM

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?

So it's just a coincidence that it's also highly flammable?

No, tear gas no flammable at all.  What are you talking about?


shiat, if tear gas were flammable, I would have burned alive when they used it on us as part of NBC (Not the TV network) training. The way that they exposed us was using raw pellets of the stuff on a burner. The air was so thick with it you could barely see. Lighters were lit to gauge visibility. If tear GAS were flammable, that hut would have exploded on the first spark.

/we were told NOT to put our gear on until we had been heavily exposed
//They were, apparently, not serious about that, and were just farking with my whole platoon to see how long we'd stand there in tear gas
///The answer to their unasked question, however, was that we'd stand there until ordered not to.
 
2013-04-20 02:49:23 PM

Wise_Guy: EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?

citationneeded.jpg


See Waco, Dorner, numerous discussions by the police about how they try to keep their tear gas deployment from starting fires.
 
2013-04-20 02:49:50 PM

Mock26: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters do get hot and can start a fire, but tear gas itself is not flammable.  The are called pyrotechnic not because they produce a flammable gas but because a pyrotechnic reaction is used to release a smoke cloud along with the tear gas.


You have a LOT of experience, first person, up close with pyrotechnics?
Want to know who does?
 
2013-04-20 02:50:15 PM
Tanks dont cause fires. Davidians do
 
2013-04-20 02:50:30 PM

snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)


Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.
 
2013-04-20 02:51:42 PM

snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

Air & Water Reactions  The finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)


So you wouldn't want to be lighting shiat on fire while that stuff is around.  Like hay bails and stuff.

The fact it, doomsday cults have a habit of initiating self-fulfilling prophecies.
 
2013-04-20 02:52:00 PM

LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.


shiat, if it were that flammable, the heat source inside the canister would essentially turn every CS grenade into a fuel-air bomb.
 
2013-04-20 02:52:16 PM

Chunks McGunks: There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire? Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html#started

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberately set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)
 
2013-04-20 02:52:35 PM

LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.


Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice
 
2013-04-20 02:53:02 PM

pedrop357: Wise_Guy: EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?

citationneeded.jpg

See Waco, Dorner, numerous discussions by the police about how they try to keep their tear gas deployment from starting fires.


So Waco proves Waco?  And where are the numerous police discussions?
 
2013-04-20 02:53:59 PM

pedrop357: cameroncrazy1984: Wait, so some people think that tear gas is flammable because the nickname for them is "burners"?

Because clearly, "burner" can have only one meaning.

No, because right after deploying them fires start.  Take note that Grain dust is explosive.

Seemingly inert aerosols can be flammable, especially in high concentrations, not to mention the explosive charge used in the type of tear gas deployed by the police is also flammable and be the thing that ignites the tear gas.


The deployment vehicle is most flammable. Roasting your nuggets on a grill avoids the OMG RUN FIRE ! part.
So it is not a lie to claim that the CS gas is nonflammable?

Oh, fark, yes it is a lie, because it is a split hair to confuse the gullible sheep.
 
2013-04-20 02:54:43 PM

pedrop357: Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice


Oh I get it--  there was a fire that started the CS gas that started the fire.

Brilliant.
 
2013-04-20 02:54:46 PM

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice


I love the smell of thermite on 6" steel in the morning!
 
2013-04-20 02:55:35 PM

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice


Yes, if something gets hot enough. Like, say, if there's a gasoline fire lit by a psychotic cult.
 
2013-04-20 02:55:59 PM

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice


Right. You have to purposefully MAKE things of this nature ignite. It's not going to just happen when you use one.

If you launch one into an area with a far more easily combustible substance - e.g. the gasoline/kerosene that was spread around - it might ignite. But that's not a foreseeable situation. Who would have assumed they covered their compound in fuel?
 
2013-04-20 02:56:20 PM

LavenderWolf: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

shiat, if it were that flammable, the heat source inside the canister would essentially turn every CS grenade into a fuel-air bomb.


Used improperly, yes they are.
Unless improper is what you are aiming for.
 
2013-04-20 02:57:15 PM

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Wise_Guy: EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?

citationneeded.jpg

See Waco, Dorner, numerous discussions by the police about how they try to keep their tear gas deployment from starting fires.

So Waco proves Waco?  And where are the numerous police discussions?


http://www.kcoy.com/story/21202096/not-all-tear-gas-cannisters-are-f la mmable
http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2000-07-07/77866/
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2001-05-30/news/0105300347_1_gas-ca ni sters-police-dog-fire
http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/091499waco-documents.ht ml
In June, the Rangers began re-examining material from the 24,000 pounds of evidence they collected in a homicide investigation that followed the F.B.I. assault. The report said that a casing had been found for 40 millimeter projectile that "burns at 500 to 700 degrees Fahrenheit, and is capable of igniting flammable items." The contents of the Rangers report was first disclosed on Monday by the Dallas Morning News.
 
2013-04-20 02:58:19 PM

snocone: Mock26: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters do get hot and can start a fire, but tear gas itself is not flammable.  The are called pyrotechnic not because they produce a flammable gas but because a pyrotechnic reaction is used to release a smoke cloud along with the tear gas.

You have a LOT of experience, first person, up close with pyrotechnics?
Want to know who does?


Are you actually saying that tear gas is flammable?
 
2013-04-20 02:59:10 PM

Mock26: snocone: Mock26: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters do get hot and can start a fire, but tear gas itself is not flammable.  The are called pyrotechnic not because they produce a flammable gas but because a pyrotechnic reaction is used to release a smoke cloud along with the tear gas.

You have a LOT of experience, first person, up close with pyrotechnics?
Want to know who does?

Are you actually saying that tear gas is flammable?


I am saying you should actually read.
 
2013-04-20 02:59:18 PM

pedrop357: Forgot to mention that that must explain the police officers caught on camera saying things like "burn the mother farker out", etc.


I'm sure you have a citation for that.

And since it took six hours from the time tear gas was deployed until the fire started, I guess it has some amazing time delay feature before it ignites, right?
 
2013-04-20 02:59:21 PM

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice

Oh I get it--  there was a fire that started the CS gas that started the fire.

Brilliant.


No, the explosive charges used to deploy the tear gas may have been hot enough to ignite the gas, whereas a light may not be.
 
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