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(NPR)   20 years after Waco, it's still real to the Branch Davidians   (npr.org) divider line 296
    More: Strange, Branch Davidians, Waco, David Koresh, prophecies, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives  
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10610 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Apr 2013 at 1:10 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-20 09:29:12 AM  
*facepalm*
 
2013-04-20 10:29:10 AM  
Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?
 
2013-04-20 11:07:42 AM  
"...a portly herbalist who lost a foot in a tractor accident."

This keeps making me chortle.
 
2013-04-20 12:07:06 PM  

DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?


That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.
 
2013-04-20 12:15:58 PM  
It's hard to let go of your cult.
 
2013-04-20 12:18:06 PM  

doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.


No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.
 
2013-04-20 12:22:57 PM  

2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.


So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?
 
2013-04-20 12:24:11 PM  

2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.


Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs
 
2013-04-20 12:25:03 PM  

doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?


Once you go potato don't ever look back
 
2013-04-20 12:32:16 PM  
Did Mr Koresh use arson in a previous incident without regard for the safety of his followers?

I'll wait.
 
2013-04-20 12:36:37 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs


Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?
 
2013-04-20 12:38:21 PM  
Goal posts just gotta moved.
 
2013-04-20 12:40:16 PM  

ytterbium: "...a portly herbalist who lost a foot in a tractor accident."

This keeps making me chortle.


That was pretty good. Got a laugh from me.
 
2013-04-20 12:40:20 PM  

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


Not much. I think most people would agree that the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.
 
2013-04-20 12:40:25 PM  
Got, not gotta.

FTGM
 
2013-04-20 12:50:31 PM  

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.
 
2013-04-20 12:53:33 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs


It is possible for more than one party to be at fault.
 
2013-04-20 01:14:37 PM  
Any time the feds get involved the end result rests with them. Good or bad.
 
2013-04-20 01:16:53 PM  

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?



It rid the country of a number of dangerous and potentially dangerous criminals. That they took innocents with them is no one's fault but the dead criminals.

Have no problem with it.

I was curious, however, to see one of th main FBI guys on tv this week crying his eyes out over the outcome.
 
2013-04-20 01:18:32 PM  
Haha! Oh I remember that!

i763.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-20 01:19:05 PM  

doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?


Burners refers to the effects, jackass.
 
2013-04-20 01:20:22 PM  

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


Just maybe it woke a few sheeple up.
Obviously not enough.
 
2013-04-20 01:22:06 PM  

Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.


This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.
 
2013-04-20 01:22:14 PM  

Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.



This. I still have to debate this with Alaskans every time I bring up the ATF.
 
2013-04-20 01:22:42 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.


So, the feds shouldn't have been there, just like with Ruby Ridge?

If the dude was raping kids - and why else do people start cults - then he could have been arrested when out on his daily run.
 
2013-04-20 01:23:17 PM  
"We survivors of 1993 are looking for David and all those that died either in shootout or in the fire," Doyle says. "We believe that God will resurrect this special group."

Wow. That's just f*cked up. And people mock atheists.
 
2013-04-20 01:23:18 PM  
I was in high school (our teacher made us watch them burn up, live as it happened, looking back he may have been in a teabagger before there was a word for them) I read the People Magazine article on it and watched the Movie of the Week but damn if I know what it accomplished.
 
2013-04-20 01:24:23 PM  
Burned Alive > Statutory Rape
 
2013-04-20 01:24:24 PM  

MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.


Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.
 
2013-04-20 01:25:43 PM  
"The United States has to fall in order for the One World Order to be set up," he says.

Go on wif yo bad self!
 
2013-04-20 01:26:59 PM  
Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?
 
2013-04-20 01:27:19 PM  

Rufus Lee King: What? You mean that some folks are still angry about government thugs an insane cult leader roasting innocent women and children alive? Who would have thought?


FTFY.
 
2013-04-20 01:28:08 PM  
"We survivors of 1993 are looking for David and all those that died either in shootout or in the fire," Doyle says. "We believe that God will resurrect this special group."

Sounds like a job for the Great Cornholio!

/need TP for my bunghole!
 
2013-04-20 01:28:32 PM  

DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?


What's would be their fark handle?
 
2013-04-20 01:30:18 PM  

snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?


The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.
 
2013-04-20 01:31:35 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs


There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?
 
2013-04-20 01:31:49 PM  
The man had a contest with another religious nut job about which one of them could raise a man from the dead. They eventually got rid of the corpse cause it was stinking the place up.

All they had to do was not initiate gun fire, or  not fire back or walk out with their hands in the air. They actively sought to murder people. And when those people you murder are police and other law enforcement agents, their surviving colleagues tend not to forget your tactics.

You reap what you sow. It's in the Bible. Study it out.
 
2013-04-20 01:33:04 PM  

MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.


Yup, same "tear gas", eh?
 
2013-04-20 01:34:00 PM  

machoprogrammer: This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.


So the answer was for the government to burn those kids and the other cult victims alive. Got it.

//wife was teaching in that area at the time, had to drive through FBI checkpoints everyday, coming and going.
 
2013-04-20 01:38:35 PM  
Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?
 
2013-04-20 01:38:36 PM  

machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.


The whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing no longer applies in this glorious America we now inhabit.
 
2013-04-20 01:38:53 PM  

Chunks McGunks: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?


Not disagreeing with this at all (personally I believe the government agents probably accidentally started the fire), but wasn't it part of the official report that the ATF planted microphones in the walls of the complex and they managed to pick up bits and pieces of conversations from the church members referring to burning the place down to the ground? I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that as part of the "proof" that the Branch members started the fires, which was presented on tape in the investigation that followed this debacle. My googlefu is weak at work right now, so correct if wrong.
 
2013-04-20 01:39:22 PM  

Badafuco: Haha! Oh I remember that!

[i763.photobucket.com image 274x369]




Clinton had no attorney general when the raid took place. His first two choices for AG had to with draw after it was revealed one was once a Playboy bunny and the other employed illegal aliens.

Reno took over after it was a two month old clusterfook.

/of course, now a days the Branch Davidians would simoly be called terrorist and no tears would be shed as they burned
 
2013-04-20 01:39:24 PM  
That's scary.
 
2013-04-20 01:40:07 PM  
Better luck next time, fire.
 
2013-04-20 01:40:50 PM  
Whatever did happen to those big steel doors?
 
2013-04-20 01:41:31 PM  

doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.


The FBI nor ATF did that. It was all Koresh's fault. He ordered his slaves to set those fires. He'd rather take down himself and everyone around him in flames than face the music for his kiddy-diddling.
 
2013-04-20 01:42:59 PM  

TV's Vinnie: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

The FBI nor ATF did that. It was all Koresh's fault. He ordered his slaves to set those fires. He'd rather take down himself and everyone around him in flames than face the music for his kiddy-diddling.


It was the FBI/ATF who shot at the exits during the fire, though.
 
2013-04-20 01:43:22 PM  
This still makes me sad - the only thing it accomplished was to allow law enforcement to go home. No one was saved from harm and that is why I thought the government was there...
 
2013-04-20 01:43:52 PM  

doglover: Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


It was the early days of the 24 hour news networks, and after the first Gulf War (Desert Storm) they didn't have much.  The Waco and the Clinton fiascoes (and the OJ chase and subsequent trial), sadly, justified their existence and convinced the public that continuous news outlets tailored to your personal, political kink were necessary.

In terms of journalism, the span of time from mid to the late 90's was the death of it.  We went from objective sources of honest information to sensationalized stories beholden, not to the truth, but what was in the best interests of whatever sponsors backed those time slots.  It became about viewers and ratings, and abandoned informing the public and started passing off whatever crap they could to fill those slots.

Then, in 1999, shortly after discovering the growth of hair in his "special place," a young, acne-pocked, borderline-alcoholic, entrepreneur living in his mother's basement in Lexington, Kentucky first noticed the cynicism of the national news networks, and Fark.com was born and Drew Curtis became a whorehousehold name and a bourbon distillery regular.

So, if you ask what was accomplished by the siege at Waco, look around, young man.  Look at the myriad of sweet, silly flowers in this garden of madness, and remember than none of this would have been possible had it not been for, among other things, that very siege.
 
2013-04-20 01:45:01 PM  
2000+ years later, it's still real to Christains. (Sorry, but trolls gotta troll.)
 
2013-04-20 01:47:18 PM  

p89tech: 2000+ years later, it's still real to Christains. (Sorry, but trolls gotta troll.)


I don't know.  That doesn't really seem like much of a troll.  You're actually right whether you believe in Jesus or not.
 
2013-04-20 01:47:42 PM  

reklamfox: Chunks McGunks: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?

Not disagreeing with this at all (personally I believe the government agents probably accidentally started the fire), but wasn't it part of the official report that the ATF planted microphones in the walls of the complex and they managed to pick up bits and pieces of conversations from the church members referring to burning the place down to the ground? I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that as part of the "proof" that the Branch members started the fires, which was presented on tape in the investigation that followed this debacle. My googlefu is weak at work right now, so correct if wrong.


I'm no conspiracy theorist but from what I've witnessed in my lifetime when the government burns someone to death they'll say about anything to blame it on the people they burned to death.
 
2013-04-20 01:49:20 PM  
I think it wold be more efficient if their child-rape compounds were burned down before they're occupied. Worth a try, anyway.
 
2013-04-20 01:50:38 PM  

reklamfox: Not disagreeing with this at all (personally I believe the government agents probably accidentally started the fire), but wasn't it part of the official report that the ATF planted microphones in the walls of the complex and they managed to pick up bits and pieces of conversations from the church members referring to burning the place down to the ground? I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that as part of the "proof" that the Branch members started the fires, which was presented on tape in the investigation that followed this debacle. My googlefu is weak at work right now, so correct if wrong.


I believe it was on PBS' Frontline where they had audio recordings from inside the compound obtained through microphones places in milk containers and food boxes that they had delivered to the Davidians.  If I'm remembering correctly (this was probably a couple of years after the actual incident) you can clearly hear them talking about where to place the hay bails sprayed with gasoline and when the wall was breached something like 'light it up' from inside the compound.

Seemed pretty clear to me that they burned the place up themselves.  Doomsday cults tend to want to be right no matter what.
 
2013-04-20 01:52:58 PM  

Chunks McGunks: reklamfox: Chunks McGunks: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?

Not disagreeing with this at all (personally I believe the government agents probably accidentally started the fire), but wasn't it part of the official report that the ATF planted microphones in the walls of the complex and they managed to pick up bits and pieces of conversations from the church members referring to burning the place down to the ground? I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that as part of the "proof" that the Branch members started the fires, which was presented on tape in the investigation that followed this debacle. My googlefu is weak at work right now, so correct if wrong.

I'm no conspiracy theorist but from what I've witnessed in my lifetime when the government burns someone to death they'll say about anything to blame it on the people they burned to death.


And lunatic cult leaders will do anything to avoid facing justice for their actions. Including poison their entire Guyanese town  or, indeed, set their own compound on fire.
 
2013-04-20 01:54:35 PM  

UNC_Samurai: It's hard to let go of your cult.


Religion is a hell of a drug.
 
2013-04-20 01:57:08 PM  
Death cult waiting for the end times burns themselves up and 20 years later, people are still surprised?

When dealing with nutjobs that want to die after they have finished with their child rape, it is going to end badly, no matter what.
 
2013-04-20 01:58:05 PM  

LordJiro: And lunatic cult leaders will do anything to avoid facing justice for their actions. Including poison their entire Guyanese town or, indeed, set their own compound on fire.


You know why no one jokes about the Jonestown massacre?

The punch lines are too long.
 
2013-04-20 01:58:24 PM  
Chunks McGunks

There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?

There are a lot of things about the incident that I don't think anyone could know. The government was at fault for injecting the compound with VX and poking holes in structures, which provided for maximum fire damage, but I really can't believe that the ATF's strategy was to intentionally fry everyone remaining there to death and I haven't seen any proof about how the fire initially started.
 
The ATF handled themselves stupidly and shamefully during the whole incident, but Koresh was suicidally erratic too.
 
2013-04-20 01:58:53 PM  
Fta: Paul Fatta, who spent nearly 13 years in prison on weapons charges, was released two years early for good behavior. Now 55 years old, he lives in San Diego where he manages his family's Hawaiian restaurant. Fatta, too, still believes.

Hawaiian BBQ I presume? No thanks guys. I don't think I'll be a customer. You're Tex-Mex BBQ, not island style. Quit lying to yourself and your customers.
 
2013-04-20 02:00:03 PM  
Except that the government ordered a hundred body bags before the siege even started.(According to the Philadelphia Inquirer the day after the fire.) No one was ever supposed to get out of there. The day the Davidians  killed ATF agents their days were numbered.
 
2013-04-20 02:01:46 PM  

Wise_Guy: If I'm remembering correctly (this was probably a couple of years after the actual incident) you can clearly hear them talking about where to place the hay bails sprayed with gasoline "coleman fuel" and when the wall was breached something like 'light it up' from inside the compound.

 
2013-04-20 02:02:38 PM  
I guess some people think that when you go to execute an arrest warrant, and the suspect and his henchmen shoot and kill some of the arresting officers, you should just turn around, go home, and leave them be.  After all, it was obviously either that or siege, and if siege was the wrong answer. . . .

And how would those critical of the use of tear gas propose they end the situation otherwise?  It seems like a pretty reasonable way to force them out without causing serious injury.  Absent the hindsight of knowing they were mass-suicidal, of course.

Regardless of who started the fire (it was the Davidians, of course, but regardless), it was the Davidians who kept most of the victims from fleeing, shooting them if they had to.  The only people who were shot by federal agents were actively trying to kill people.

I suppose you people blame Congressman Leo Ryan for killing everyone at Jonestown, too.  After all, if he hadn't gone down there. . .
 
2013-04-20 02:03:57 PM  
Thanks Clinton
 
2013-04-20 02:04:18 PM  
Read The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog, by Bruice Perry, MD.  He is the former Chief of Psychiatry at Texas Children's Hospital. A number of children were released from the compound in the days before the fire, and  Dr Perry worked with the them. The children all drew pictures of the compound engulfed in flames BEFORE it burned. When it happened, not one of them was even a little surprised. They all knew that everyone who stayed would die in the fire. It was planned. They knew how it was going to end. The fire was the BD's koolaid. It was in the script. They did it to themselves.
 
2013-04-20 02:06:57 PM  

snocone: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

Yup, same "tear gas", eh?


You're too stupid to have this conversation with. Go on the roof and watch for helicopters or jump off.
 
2013-04-20 02:07:50 PM  

machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.


agreed, but their cunning plan was clusterfark. why not just wait to catch him one day when he was awayfrom the children. They could have come up with 1000 better plans than the one that was executed.
 
2013-04-20 02:07:59 PM  
God is whomever the men in charge say God is, the path to God is laid out by them, it's twists, turns, and steps, designed to make you dance for their benefit and enjoyment. Dance well and be rewarded, misstep and be discarded. The great and powerful God does exist, he is the man behind the curtain. Pull back the curtain and reveal the man and no longer is he God.
 
2013-04-20 02:08:25 PM  

Delawheredad: Except that the government ordered a hundred body bags before the siege even started.(According to the Philadelphia Inquirer the day after the fire.) No one was ever supposed to get out of there. The day the Davidians  killed ATF agents their days were numbered.


Or, y'know, the Davidians had been stockpiling weapons and were known to be violent, so the government was prepared for them to put up a big fight, or for them to pull a Jonestown and off themselves rather than face justice.
 
2013-04-20 02:10:12 PM  

machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.


Yeah yeah yeah. Stopped that kiddie raping reeeeal good. Kids are lucky wont ever get raped again.
 
2013-04-20 02:10:31 PM  

danwinkler: machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.

The whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing no longer applies in this glorious America we now inhabit.


Well, they did try to arrest them, but hard to when they were holed up in the compound. What were they supposed to do? You can't let them keep raping kids.

If the feds started the fire, that was wrong, and I agree it was handled wrong, but Koresh definitely needed to be investigated/arrested/etc.
 
2013-04-20 02:11:35 PM  

Delawheredad: Except that the government ordered a hundred body bags before the siege even started.(According to the Philadelphia Inquirer the day after the fire.) No one was ever supposed to get out of there. The day the Davidians  killed ATF agents their days were numbered.


You forgot the reverse vampires and the reptilian shapeshifters.
 
2013-04-20 02:12:40 PM  
As to the Waco tapes that proved the BD's lit the fire themselves. Colin Powell went to the U.N with tape recordings that "proved" Saddam Hussein was making anthrax and other biological terror weapons. The ATF and the FBi have very good reasons for making it seem as though they had no part in the fire..
 
2013-04-20 02:12:55 PM  

FarkinHostile: LordJiro: And lunatic cult leaders will do anything to avoid facing justice for their actions. Including poison their entire Guyanese town or, indeed, set their own compound on fire.

You know why no one jokes about the Jonestown massacre?

The punch lines are too long.


Wooooooooow, that's a new one. Awful. +1
 
2013-04-20 02:13:39 PM  

namegoeshere: Read The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog, by Bruice Perry, MD.  He is the former Chief of Psychiatry at Texas Children's Hospital. A number of children were released from the compound in the days before the fire, and  Dr Perry worked with the them. The children all drew pictures of the compound engulfed in flames BEFORE it burned. When it happened, not one of them was even a little surprised. They all knew that everyone who stayed would die in the fire. It was planned. They knew how it was going to end. The fire was the BD's koolaid. It was in the script. They did it to themselves.


Repeated for emphasis. Although I suspect the conspiracy theorists will continue to ignore this and keep blaming the Big Bad Fed for everything.
 
2013-04-20 02:13:43 PM  
Before the fire:  We Ain't Comin' Out!

After the fire:  What A Cook-Out!
 
2013-04-20 02:14:16 PM  

Milo Minderbinder: Delawheredad: Except that the government ordered a hundred body bags before the siege even started.(According to the Philadelphia Inquirer the day after the fire.) No one was ever supposed to get out of there. The day the Davidians  killed ATF agents their days were numbered.

You forgot the reverse vampires and the reptilian shapeshifters.


Fast forward 20 years, and the mysterious UN brigades have been replaced by shadowy Muslim sleeper cells. Same kooky wingnuts, different Democrat usurper.
 
2013-04-20 02:14:28 PM  

Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.


What illegal weapons?  When did allegations of sexual abuse become the province of the ATF?
 
2013-04-20 02:15:10 PM  

TV's Vinnie: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

The FBI nor ATF did that. It was all Koresh's fault. He ordered his slaves to set those fires. He'd rather take down himself and everyone around him in flames than face the music for his kiddy-diddling.


Paranoid conspiracies like this crack me up.
 
2013-04-20 02:15:42 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Once you go

potato potatoe don't ever look back

//ftfy
 
2013-04-20 02:17:57 PM  

pearls before swine: I guess some people think that when you go to execute an arrest warrant, and the suspect and his henchmen shoot and kill some of the arresting officers, you should just turn around, go home, and leave them be.  After all, it was obviously either that or siege, and if siege was the wrong answer. . . .

The branch dividians claimed the ATF shot first.  We'll never know for sure given that key pieces of evidence disappeared.

It's also pretty strange that they chose full out confrontation right away rather than arrest Koresh when he was jogging or take him him up on his offer to visit the place.
 
2013-04-20 02:18:58 PM  

Rozotorical: machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.

Yeah yeah yeah. Stopped that kiddie raping reeeeal good. Kids are lucky wont ever get raped again.


Not to mention that allegation of child abuse are the jurisdiction of the local police departments and not the ATF.
 
2013-04-20 02:19:30 PM  
Love how many here are 100% absolutely sure that the government slaughtered a bunch of innocent Christians because "I don't like the government and I heard they do mean things so everything bad is all their fault".
 
2013-04-20 02:20:24 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Love how many here are 100% absolutely sure that the government slaughtered a bunch of innocent Christians because "I don't like the government and I heard they do mean things so everything bad is all their fault".


Did a quick thread scan, seems like you're the only one saying that.
 
2013-04-20 02:20:53 PM  

pedrop357: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

What illegal weapons?  When did allegations of sexual abuse become the province of the ATF?


IIRC they never actually found illegal weapons, but the fear was that the BD's were collecting various bits and pieces needed to modify semi-autos, which is illegal. Not sure that's really enough to justify raiding the compound but, didn't some official get in trouble for lying about knowledge of illegal weapons in order to get the sign-off to raid the place?

What a farked up situation all around.
 
2013-04-20 02:21:43 PM  
I'm not a conspiracy theorist but WACO was a clusterfark from the beginning. EVERYTHING the FBI and ATF did reinforced the BD's beliefs that Armageddon was at hand. The ATF and the FBI are peopled with bright people. So you have to ask yourself how could so many people in BOTH agencies do EVERYTHING wrong from day one. WACO either the government is far more incompetent than ever thought or there was a deliberate plan for the siege to end the way it did WHOEVER started the fire. There is NO OTHER OPTION.
 
2013-04-20 02:22:17 PM  
God only knows...
www.carolmoore.net

...it's not what we would choose to do.
img.fark.net
 
2013-04-20 02:23:01 PM  

pedrop357: Rozotorical: machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.

Yeah yeah yeah. Stopped that kiddie raping reeeeal good. Kids are lucky wont ever get raped again.

Not to mention that allegation of child abuse are the jurisdiction of the local police departments and not the ATF.


And weapons violations (such as illegally altering M16s to make them automatic) are the jurisdiction of the ATF.
 
2013-04-20 02:24:40 PM  

pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Love how many here are 100% absolutely sure that the government slaughtered a bunch of innocent Christians because "I don't like the government and I heard they do mean things so everything bad is all their fault".

Did a quick thread scan, seems like you're the only one saying that.


The vibes I'm getting say otherwise. "If the government had only done this", "If they'd just left those people alone", "This way/that/way/government burned all those kids".
 
2013-04-20 02:25:03 PM  

LordJiro: pedrop357: Rozotorical: machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.

Yeah yeah yeah. Stopped that kiddie raping reeeeal good. Kids are lucky wont ever get raped again.

Not to mention that allegation of child abuse are the jurisdiction of the local police departments and not the ATF.

And weapons violations (such as illegally altering M16s to make them automatic) are the jurisdiction of the ATF.


In their warrant request, they played up the sexual abuse angle quite a bit because their illegal weapon allegations were pathetically weak.

M16s are already automatic, and the ATF didn't present a whole lot in court about illegally modifying semi-auto rifles.  Nothing they presented justified the kind of action they took.
 
2013-04-20 02:25:20 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Not much. I think most people would agree that the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.


Yes, the government should have handled it better.  But, then again, the cultists should have obeyed the law better.
 
2013-04-20 02:25:26 PM  

YixilTesiphon: TV's Vinnie: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

The FBI nor ATF did that. It was all Koresh's fault. He ordered his slaves to set those fires. He'd rather take down himself and everyone around him in flames than face the music for his kiddy-diddling.

It was the FBI/ATF who shot at the exits during the fire, though.


Um, no. They didn't. STFU.
 
2013-04-20 02:25:52 PM  

pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Love how many here are 100% absolutely sure that the government slaughtered a bunch of innocent Christians because "I don't like the government and I heard they do mean things so everything bad is all their fault".

Did a quick thread scan, seems like you're the only one saying that.


For real... I don't think the government did it because they "do mean things" in all honesty I'm not sure who started the fire. I doubt anyone will ever know the truth. It could likely be either party, and if the govt did start the blaze it was probably an accident. It's not like the BD's weren't stocked to the rafters with flammable substances.
 
2013-04-20 02:25:54 PM  

YixilTesiphon: Peter von Nostrand: the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.

So, the feds shouldn't have been there, just like with Ruby Ridge?

If the dude was raping kids - and why else do people start cults - then he could have been arrested when out on his daily run.


I don't disagree that his apprehension should have been handled differently
 
2013-04-20 02:26:52 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Love how many here are 100% absolutely sure that the government slaughtered a bunch of innocent Christians because "I don't like the government and I heard they do mean things so everything bad is all their fault".

Did a quick thread scan, seems like you're the only one saying that.

The vibes I'm getting say otherwise. "If the government had only done this", "If they'd just left those people alone", "This way/that/way/government burned all those kids".


Agreed on all 3 points.  The government is supposed to be staffed with trained, professional, restrained people, yet everything they did was a clusterfark from the beginning and reeks of illegal, unethical, and/or unconstitutional activities by the government, just like at Ruby Ridge.
 
2013-04-20 02:27:09 PM  

peasants_are_revolting: "We survivors of 1993 are looking for David and all those that died either in shootout or in the fire," Doyle says. "We believe that God will resurrect this special group."


Koresh burned for my shins.
Proof?
Look at my great shins.
 
2013-04-20 02:27:46 PM  

Mock26: Peter von Nostrand: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Not much. I think most people would agree that the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.

Yes, the government should have handled it better.  But, then again, the cultists should have obeyed the law better.


You'll note that the few who survived were acquitted of nearly everything.
 
2013-04-20 02:28:49 PM  

snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.



If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!
 
2013-04-20 02:30:59 PM  

Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!


The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.
 
2013-04-20 02:31:13 PM  

Delawheredad: I'm not a conspiracy theorist but WACO was a clusterfark from the beginning. EVERYTHING the FBI and ATF did reinforced the BD's beliefs that Armageddon was at hand.


A minor earthquake in Pakistan or the birth of an albino cow in Israel reinforces idiot's belief that Armageddon is at hand.
If you went tip-toeing around all day being careful not to reinforce the idea that Armageddon is at hand, you wouldn't get much done.
 
2013-04-20 02:31:39 PM  

pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Love how many here are 100% absolutely sure that the government slaughtered a bunch of innocent Christians because "I don't like the government and I heard they do mean things so everything bad is all their fault".

Did a quick thread scan, seems like you're the only one saying that.

The vibes I'm getting say otherwise. "If the government had only done this", "If they'd just left those people alone", "This way/that/way/government burned all those kids".

Agreed on all 3 points.  The government is supposed to be staffed with trained, professional, restrained people, yet everything they did was a clusterfark from the beginning and reeks of illegal, unethical, and/or unconstitutional activities by the government, just like at Ruby Ridge.


Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.
 
2013-04-20 02:31:57 PM  

machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.


Yeah, another few kids and a few more slaves and these guys would be on par with the founding fathers.  We can't have that.
 
2013-04-20 02:32:33 PM  
When the jackbooted thugs show up at your door you have 2 choices: live or die.
The Davidians used the children as shields thinking as long as they had them no harm would come.
Ruby Ridge was just A-holes.
They chose poorly.
If the Marathon bomber goes to trial,a good lawyer could argue because of his age and he idolized his big brother he will probably get life.
I believe he should get the death sentence.
 
2013-04-20 02:33:21 PM  

Delawheredad: There is NO OTHER OPTION.


Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

Seriously, though, absolutes in a case like this are retarded.
 
2013-04-20 02:33:57 PM  

pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.


Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?
 
2013-04-20 02:34:20 PM  

Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!


"Incendiary tear gas"? Does he think that it's MEANT to ignite after being deployed?
 
2013-04-20 02:35:59 PM  

pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.


On the other hand, the cops claim to be so stupid so as to not understand that "burner" means FIRE. "It was an accident", Lou.

I have to believe that they are that stupid, since they say so, and they are The Law, but also less than truthful, so,,,
 
2013-04-20 02:36:28 PM  

machoprogrammer: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

This. They were raping kids, abusing kids and stockpiling weapons to basically start an overthrow of the government. It was handled badly, but they needed to stop what was going on there.


Allegedly. The government conveniently never had to prove it in a trial.
 
2013-04-20 02:36:46 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.


Yet the government always confronts them in the most aggressive, frontal, almost antagnostic manner possible.

Apparently it's never possible to quietly arrest the leader when he's on his regular jog, and is impossible to show up with a warrant in hand to demand entry.  Nope, gotta go into full surprise assault mode.

What happened to the front door that the BD members claim was proof that the government was shooting through closed doors?  Who had the warrant in their possession to show to anyone who demanded it?  Who announced themselves as law enforcement officials with a warrant?

If a cult tomorrow said that the end would happen when the government starts crashing helicopters into their compound, I'm sure some government official would suggest dive bombing the compound with drone helicopters.
 
2013-04-20 02:37:33 PM  

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?


So it's just a coincidence that it's also highly flammable?
 
2013-04-20 02:38:51 PM  
Liberal/Progressive Meme

1. Children burned alive okay
2. Resisting authority not okay
3. Janet Reno is hot
 
2013-04-20 02:40:29 PM  

pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.

Yet the government always confronts them in the most aggressive, frontal, almost antagnostic manner possible.

Apparently it's never possible to quietly arrest the leader when he's on his regular jog, and is impossible to show up with a warrant in hand to demand entry.  Nope, gotta go into full surprise assault mode.

What happened to the front door that the BD members claim was proof that the government was shooting through closed doors?  Who had the warrant in their possession to show to anyone who demanded it?  Who announced themselves as law enforcement officials with a warrant?

If a cult tomorrow said that the end would happen when the government starts crashing helicopters into their compound, I'm sure some government official would suggest dive bombing the compound with drone helicopters.


They did show up with a warrant and were shot at.

Did you think all those tanks and stuff showed up just to arrest Koresh on day 1?
 
2013-04-20 02:41:11 PM  

Wise_Guy: Tear gas isn't flammable. It burns your eyes and throat. "Burners" -- get it?


Forgot to mention that that must explain the police officers caught on camera saying things like "burn the mother farker out", etc.

They must have been talking about burning his eyes and throat until he came out, right?

Amazing that they don't just say CS or tear gas.  "Deployed CS to section 7", "Inserted two tear gas into corner 3", etc.
 
2013-04-20 02:41:14 PM  

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.

Yet the government always confronts them in the most aggressive, frontal, almost antagnostic manner possible.

Apparently it's never possible to quietly arrest the leader when he's on his regular jog, and is impossible to show up with a warrant in hand to demand entry.  Nope, gotta go into full surprise assault mode.

What happened to the front door that the BD members claim was proof that the government was shooting through closed doors?  Who had the warrant in their possession to show to anyone who demanded it?  Who announced themselves as law enforcement officials with a warrant?

If a cult tomorrow said that the end would happen when the government starts crashing helicopters into their compound, I'm sure some government official would suggest dive bombing the compound with drone helicopters.

They did show up with a warrant and were shot at.

Did you think all those tanks and stuff showed up just to arrest Koresh on day 1?


That's just what they WANT you to think, man. Facts are a librul conspiracy.
 
2013-04-20 02:41:35 PM  
Well lets burn down the Vatican and kill everyone there because a couple of them touched children, then.

No matter how you paint the branch davidians, the ATF response was insane.
 
2013-04-20 02:41:47 PM  

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Keizer_Ghidorah: Some of the things that happened were questionable, and the children didn't need to die, but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit. Cultists have shown over and over that they'll stoop to any depravity, especially when they're confronted.

Yet the government always confronts them in the most aggressive, frontal, almost antagnostic manner possible.

Apparently it's never possible to quietly arrest the leader when he's on his regular jog, and is impossible to show up with a warrant in hand to demand entry.  Nope, gotta go into full surprise assault mode.

What happened to the front door that the BD members claim was proof that the government was shooting through closed doors?  Who had the warrant in their possession to show to anyone who demanded it?  Who announced themselves as law enforcement officials with a warrant?

If a cult tomorrow said that the end would happen when the government starts crashing helicopters into their compound, I'm sure some government official would suggest dive bombing the compound with drone helicopters.

They did show up with a warrant and were shot at.

Did you think all those tanks and stuff showed up just to arrest Koresh on day 1?


Who had the warrant and how did they try to present it?
 
2013-04-20 02:42:02 PM  

doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?


Anyone who has been in any military that uses or has used tear gas or smoke grenades knows exactly how full of shiat you are.

Nobody who uses teargas calls them "burners." They are not intended to burn anything. Absent a copious amount of very combustible fuel of some kind, they won't start fires. I used smoke grenades in the middle of a dry forest in the high heat of summer in training with no issue. We're talking several inches of dry pine needles - practically begging for a forest fire.

I am so sick and tired of this stupid meme being trotted out every time Waco comes up.

Smoke grenades/tear gas grenades do not cause fires unless you try very hard to make them do that. For example, by covering the inside of the compound in gasoline or kerosene. Which there is ample evidence to support.
 
2013-04-20 02:42:08 PM  

pedrop357: Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?

So it's just a coincidence that it's also highly flammable?


No, tear gas no flammable at all.  What are you talking about?
 
2013-04-20 02:43:58 PM  

Delawheredad: As to the Waco tapes that proved the BD's lit the fire themselves. Colin Powell went to the U.N with tape recordings that "proved" Saddam Hussein was making anthrax and other biological terror weapons. The ATF and the FBi have very good reasons for making it seem as though they had no part in the fire..


Actually, it was 100% sure it was moved, what all was stuck me as funny  that in the Gulf War Hussein threatened the use of chemical weapons if Israel intervened, plus the fact that he used them during the original Iran-Iraq conflict and what about the entire town of Kurds he gassed in the late 1980s, killing thousands and genetically mutating the ones that live.

I guess because the weapons could not be found during the search, but years earlier he actually used them on people, gee does that invalidate it?

If it is proved that I shot someone years earlier, then I make threats years later, but the police cannot find my gun, does that make my threat any less?  It doesn't.

It was known he had them, known he used them, just because they could not be found does not invalidate their existence.
 
2013-04-20 02:44:20 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: Liberal/Progressive Meme

1. Children burned alive okay
2. Resisting authority not okay
3. Janet Reno is hot


Who the hell said children being burned alive was okay?

Those responsible for it, however, burned to death with them.
 
2013-04-20 02:44:27 PM  

Bongo Blue: When the jackbooted thugs show up at your door you have 2 choices: live or die.
The Davidians used the children as shields thinking as long as they had them no harm would come.
Ruby Ridge was just A-holes.
They chose poorly.
If the Marathon bomber goes to trial,a good lawyer could argue because of his age and he idolized his big brother he will probably get life.
I believe he should get the death sentence.


The problem with your theory is that no one wears jackboots anymore. Instead, they wear rubber soles with orthopedic inserts. It's all about lower back pain these days.
 
2013-04-20 02:44:39 PM  
Wait, so some people think that tear gas is flammable because the nickname for them is "burners"?

Because clearly, "burner" can have only one meaning.
 
2013-04-20 02:44:48 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: Liberal/Progressive Meme

1. Children burned alive okay
2. Resisting authority not okay
3. Janet Reno is hot


It is for the good of the collective
 
2013-04-20 02:45:02 PM  

pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.


Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters do get hot and can start a fire, but tear gas itself is not flammable.  The are called pyrotechnic not because they produce a flammable gas but because a pyrotechnic reaction is used to release a smoke cloud along with the tear gas.
 
2013-04-20 02:45:29 PM  
From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?
 
2013-04-20 02:47:39 PM  
Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)
 
2013-04-20 02:47:50 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Wait, so some people think that tear gas is flammable because the nickname for them is "burners"?

Because clearly, "burner" can have only one meaning.


No, because right after deploying them fires start.  Take note that Grain dust is explosive.

Seemingly inert aerosols can be flammable, especially in high concentrations, not to mention the explosive charge used in the type of tear gas deployed by the police is also flammable and be the thing that ignites the tear gas.
 
2013-04-20 02:48:10 PM  

EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?


citationneeded.jpg
 
2013-04-20 02:49:13 PM  

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Tear gas isn't flammable.  It burns your eyes and throat.  "Burners" -- get it?

So it's just a coincidence that it's also highly flammable?

No, tear gas no flammable at all.  What are you talking about?


shiat, if tear gas were flammable, I would have burned alive when they used it on us as part of NBC (Not the TV network) training. The way that they exposed us was using raw pellets of the stuff on a burner. The air was so thick with it you could barely see. Lighters were lit to gauge visibility. If tear GAS were flammable, that hut would have exploded on the first spark.

/we were told NOT to put our gear on until we had been heavily exposed
//They were, apparently, not serious about that, and were just farking with my whole platoon to see how long we'd stand there in tear gas
///The answer to their unasked question, however, was that we'd stand there until ordered not to.
 
2013-04-20 02:49:23 PM  

Wise_Guy: EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?

citationneeded.jpg


See Waco, Dorner, numerous discussions by the police about how they try to keep their tear gas deployment from starting fires.
 
2013-04-20 02:49:50 PM  

Mock26: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters do get hot and can start a fire, but tear gas itself is not flammable.  The are called pyrotechnic not because they produce a flammable gas but because a pyrotechnic reaction is used to release a smoke cloud along with the tear gas.


You have a LOT of experience, first person, up close with pyrotechnics?
Want to know who does?
 
2013-04-20 02:50:15 PM  
Tanks dont cause fires. Davidians do
 
2013-04-20 02:50:30 PM  

snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)


Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.
 
2013-04-20 02:51:42 PM  

snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

Air & Water Reactions  The finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)


So you wouldn't want to be lighting shiat on fire while that stuff is around.  Like hay bails and stuff.

The fact it, doomsday cults have a habit of initiating self-fulfilling prophecies.
 
2013-04-20 02:52:00 PM  

LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.


shiat, if it were that flammable, the heat source inside the canister would essentially turn every CS grenade into a fuel-air bomb.
 
2013-04-20 02:52:16 PM  

Chunks McGunks: There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire? Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html#started

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberately set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)
 
2013-04-20 02:52:35 PM  

LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.


Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice
 
2013-04-20 02:53:02 PM  

pedrop357: Wise_Guy: EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?

citationneeded.jpg

See Waco, Dorner, numerous discussions by the police about how they try to keep their tear gas deployment from starting fires.


So Waco proves Waco?  And where are the numerous police discussions?
 
2013-04-20 02:53:59 PM  

pedrop357: cameroncrazy1984: Wait, so some people think that tear gas is flammable because the nickname for them is "burners"?

Because clearly, "burner" can have only one meaning.

No, because right after deploying them fires start.  Take note that Grain dust is explosive.

Seemingly inert aerosols can be flammable, especially in high concentrations, not to mention the explosive charge used in the type of tear gas deployed by the police is also flammable and be the thing that ignites the tear gas.


The deployment vehicle is most flammable. Roasting your nuggets on a grill avoids the OMG RUN FIRE ! part.
So it is not a lie to claim that the CS gas is nonflammable?

Oh, fark, yes it is a lie, because it is a split hair to confuse the gullible sheep.
 
2013-04-20 02:54:43 PM  

pedrop357: Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice


Oh I get it--  there was a fire that started the CS gas that started the fire.

Brilliant.
 
2013-04-20 02:54:46 PM  

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice


I love the smell of thermite on 6" steel in the morning!
 
2013-04-20 02:55:35 PM  

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice


Yes, if something gets hot enough. Like, say, if there's a gasoline fire lit by a psychotic cult.
 
2013-04-20 02:55:59 PM  

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice


Right. You have to purposefully MAKE things of this nature ignite. It's not going to just happen when you use one.

If you launch one into an area with a far more easily combustible substance - e.g. the gasoline/kerosene that was spread around - it might ignite. But that's not a foreseeable situation. Who would have assumed they covered their compound in fuel?
 
2013-04-20 02:56:20 PM  

LavenderWolf: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

shiat, if it were that flammable, the heat source inside the canister would essentially turn every CS grenade into a fuel-air bomb.


Used improperly, yes they are.
Unless improper is what you are aiming for.
 
2013-04-20 02:57:15 PM  

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Wise_Guy: EdNortonsTwin: From what we've seen of the type of teargas known as burners, it often cause fires.  that's the beauty of dual use technology; you can spin it either way.  like warhead filling equipment the usa sold to saddam.  It was dualy useable for insecticide deploymen

t.  Convinient, eh?

citationneeded.jpg

See Waco, Dorner, numerous discussions by the police about how they try to keep their tear gas deployment from starting fires.

So Waco proves Waco?  And where are the numerous police discussions?


http://www.kcoy.com/story/21202096/not-all-tear-gas-cannisters-are-f la mmable
http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2000-07-07/77866/
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2001-05-30/news/0105300347_1_gas-ca ni sters-police-dog-fire
http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/091499waco-documents.ht ml
In June, the Rangers began re-examining material from the 24,000 pounds of evidence they collected in a homicide investigation that followed the F.B.I. assault. The report said that a casing had been found for 40 millimeter projectile that "burns at 500 to 700 degrees Fahrenheit, and is capable of igniting flammable items." The contents of the Rangers report was first disclosed on Monday by the Dallas Morning News.
 
2013-04-20 02:58:19 PM  

snocone: Mock26: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters do get hot and can start a fire, but tear gas itself is not flammable.  The are called pyrotechnic not because they produce a flammable gas but because a pyrotechnic reaction is used to release a smoke cloud along with the tear gas.

You have a LOT of experience, first person, up close with pyrotechnics?
Want to know who does?


Are you actually saying that tear gas is flammable?
 
2013-04-20 02:59:10 PM  

Mock26: snocone: Mock26: pedrop357: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started?  It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Pyrotechnic tear gas canisters do get hot and can start a fire, but tear gas itself is not flammable.  The are called pyrotechnic not because they produce a flammable gas but because a pyrotechnic reaction is used to release a smoke cloud along with the tear gas.

You have a LOT of experience, first person, up close with pyrotechnics?
Want to know who does?

Are you actually saying that tear gas is flammable?


I am saying you should actually read.
 
2013-04-20 02:59:18 PM  

pedrop357: Forgot to mention that that must explain the police officers caught on camera saying things like "burn the mother farker out", etc.


I'm sure you have a citation for that.

And since it took six hours from the time tear gas was deployed until the fire started, I guess it has some amazing time delay feature before it ignites, right?
 
2013-04-20 02:59:21 PM  

Wise_Guy: pedrop357: Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice

Oh I get it--  there was a fire that started the CS gas that started the fire.

Brilliant.


No, the explosive charges used to deploy the tear gas may have been hot enough to ignite the gas, whereas a light may not be.
 
2013-04-20 03:01:52 PM  

LavenderWolf: Right. You have to purposefully MAKE things of this nature ignite. It's not going to just happen when you use one.

If you launch one into an area with a far more easily combustible substance - e.g. the gasoline/kerosene that was spread around - it might ignite. But that's not a foreseeable situation. Who would have assumed they covered their compound in fuel?


Or the explosive charge that deploys the gas is the right temperature to ignite it, or is close enough to a sufficiently and properly concentrated amount.

OR you deploy quarts of it through a nozzle on a tank and the stuff lingers long enough for the dust to reach flammable concentrations , THEN you begin tossing in the in the ones that use incendiary charges to deploy.
 
2013-04-20 03:01:52 PM  

snocone: LavenderWolf: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

shiat, if it were that flammable, the heat source inside the canister would essentially turn every CS grenade into a fuel-air bomb.

Used improperly, yes they are.
Unless improper is what you are aiming for.


This is the most paranoid, delusional bullshiat I've read today. And that's saying something - I've been surfing the web all day.

Is there any evidence or reason to believe that the tear gas canisters were modified to produce an incendiary effect?

No, the fact that there was a fire is not proof. There is evidence that they covered the inside of their compound with gasoline. The available evidence shows one thing, but you are insisting on another thing.
 
2013-04-20 03:02:43 PM  

MisterRonbo: pedrop357: Forgot to mention that that must explain the police officers caught on camera saying things like "burn the mother farker out", etc.

I'm sure you have a citation for that.

And since it took six hours from the time tear gas was deployed until the fire started, I guess it has some amazing time delay feature before it ignites, right?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9868110/P ol ice-tried-to-burn-out-Christopher-Dorner.html
 
2013-04-20 03:02:56 PM  

Wise_Guy: The police call the devices they insert "burners" and would you believe it that a few seconds after deploying one of these "burners" into a cabin, a fire started? It's almost like deploying this stuff in high concentrations OR into an area with an open flame (fireplace) is likely to start a fire and they know it.

Tear gas isn't flammable. It burns your eyes and throat. "Burners" -- get it?


He apparently thinks its a bottle of gas instead of a compound that makes noxious smoke as it burns

From the MSDS:

PYROTECHNIC CS AGENT

Potassium Chlorate
Sugar
Magnesium Carbonate
Nitrocellulose
o-chlorobenzylindenemalononitrile

http://www.defense-technology.com/pdfs/msds/1182-37LRSpedeHeatCS.pdf

It is a smoke bomb with crap in the smoke.  Not a bottle of flammable gas.

/wait until he hears about some of the kinds of O2 generators that firemen use
 
2013-04-20 03:03:01 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

"Incendiary tear gas"? Does he think that it's MEANT to ignite after being deployed?


I have a practical experiment for you.  Pull the pin on a tear gas can, and hold it in your bare hands for 10 minutes.  You should probably get a mask.  I'll bet anything you care to match that you can't hold that can for more than a minute after you pull the pin.  Do you have some idea why?

Tear gas canisters are a dry chemical mix, and they produce gas by BURNING at over 450 degrees.  The heat is spread to the outer walls of the can and it can ignite any number of things.  It can also have fire actually spitting out the top of the can.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of you...gentlemen arguing over this, as it's super clear none of you has ever actually seen a tear gas can, much less operated one.
 
2013-04-20 03:03:16 PM  

theflatline: Colin Powell went to the U.N with tape recordings that "proved" Saddam Hussein was making anthrax and other biological terror weapons. The ATF and the FBi have very good reasons for making it seem as though they had no part in the fire..

Actually, it was 100% sure it was moved, what all was stuck me as funny that in the Gulf War Hussein threatened the use of chemical weapons if Israel intervened, plus the fact that he used them during the original Iran-Iraq conflict and what about the entire town of Kurds he gassed in the late 1980s, killing thousands and genetically mutating the ones that live.


Oh look at you, conflating all kinds of things under that stupid label "WMDs".

Let me help you out:  We invaded Iraq because his weapons supposedly posed a threat - pay attention now - to the United States.

Biological weapons could do that.

It did make sense that he had chemical weapons:artillery shells equipped with mustard gas, and possibly helicopters capable of delivering poison gas.

Those posed no threat to the US. See, those artillery shells and helicopters couldn't make it to the US.  Or even to Israel, actually.

So no, he was no threat to anyone outside of Iraq.  And with the no-fly zone, not a threat to the Kurds, either.
 
2013-04-20 03:03:38 PM  

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: Right. You have to purposefully MAKE things of this nature ignite. It's not going to just happen when you use one.

If you launch one into an area with a far more easily combustible substance - e.g. the gasoline/kerosene that was spread around - it might ignite. But that's not a foreseeable situation. Who would have assumed they covered their compound in fuel?

Or the explosive charge that deploys the gas is the right temperature to ignite it, or is close enough to a sufficiently and properly concentrated amount.

OR you deploy quarts of it through a nozzle on a tank and the stuff lingers long enough for the dust to reach flammable concentrations , THEN you begin tossing in the in the ones that use incendiary charges to deploy.


OR you can actually go by actual evidence rather than speculation.
 
2013-04-20 03:04:24 PM  
Chemistry!
What the fark does it have to do with derp?
Where humans are concerned, derp always wins the emotional "debate".
Because humans can just believe away the non actual stuff like Real World.
 
2013-04-20 03:05:40 PM  

LavenderWolf: Smoke grenades/tear gas grenades do not cause fires unless you try very hard to make them do that. For example, by covering the inside of the compound in gasoline or kerosene. Which there is ample evidence to support.


Or employing them near where kerosene lamps have been broken?
 
2013-04-20 03:07:28 PM  

Kahabut: Keizer_Ghidorah: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

"Incendiary tear gas"? Does he think that it's MEANT to ignite after being deployed?

I have a practical experiment for you.  Pull the pin on a tear gas can, and hold it in your bare hands for 10 minutes.  You should probably get a mask.  I'll bet anything you care to match that you can't hold that can for more than a minute after you pull the pin.  Do you have some idea why?

Tear gas canisters are a dry chemical mix, and they produce gas by BURNING at over 450 degrees.  The heat is spread to the outer walls of the can and it can ignite any number of things.  It can also have fire actually spitting out the top of the can.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of you...gentlemen arguing over this, as it's super clear none of you has ever actually seen a tear gas can, much less operated one.


THIS.

That, and the police in articles that are very easy to find on google talk about how they are seeking/have sought less flammable models, which they sometimes to refer to as "non-incendiary" or "non-flammable" versions.  Strange of them to refer to a product that's supposedly not flammable as having a 'non-flammable' and/or 'non-incendiary' version to use those terms to prefix the item.
 
2013-04-20 03:07:35 PM  

snocone: pedrop357: LavenderWolf: snocone: Let's call it CS gas, get it.

There is that word "volatile".
WIKI sez: The compound 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (also called o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) (chemical formula: C10H5ClN2), a cyanocarbon, is the defining component of a "tear gas" commonly referred to as CS gas, which is used as a riot control agent. "CS gas" is actually an aerosol of a volatile solvent (a substance that dissolves other active substances and that easily evaporates with it) and 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, which is a solid compound at room temperature. CS gas is generally accepted as being non-lethal. It was discovered by two Americans, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton, at Middlebury College in 1928, and the chemical's name is derived from the first letters of the scientists' surnames.[4][5]

Air & Water ReactionsThe finely powdered nitrile is a significant dust explosion hazard. Slightly soluble in water.Fire HazardFlash point data for this chemical are not available, but it is probably combustible. (NTP, 1992)

Having been in heavily-concentrated areas of CS gas while also in the presence of a source of ignition, I'm going to call BS and demand you find out exactly HOW flammable it is before making such accusations.

Ignition temperature matters too.

Things like thermite don't typically ignite when you use a match or lighter, but get something hot enough and it goes off pretty nice

I love the smell of thermite on 6" steel in the morning!


So you're a Truther. Everything you say is now irrelevant.
 
2013-04-20 03:08:35 PM  

Kahabut: Keizer_Ghidorah: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

"Incendiary tear gas"? Does he think that it's MEANT to ignite after being deployed?

I have a practical experiment for you.  Pull the pin on a tear gas can, and hold it in your bare hands for 10 minutes.  You should probably get a mask.  I'll bet anything you care to match that you can't hold that can for more than a minute after you pull the pin.  Do you have some idea why?

Tear gas canisters are a dry chemical mix, and they produce gas by BURNING at over 450 degrees.  The heat is spread to the outer walls of the can and it can ignite any number of things.  It can also have fire actually spitting out the top of the can.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of you...gentlemen arguing over this, as it's super clear none of you has ever actually seen a tear gas can, much less operated one.


Sup, I have used smoke grenades. CS gas canisters are just dirty smoke grenades. I've been in heavily concentrated areas of CS gas while in the presence of an ignition source.

You are full of shiat. The actual heat source inside the canister gets very hot, but while the casing does get too hot to touch, that doesn't mean the casing is as hot as the heat source. In fact, it would be just about impossible for the canister to reach the same temperature as the fuel/heat source. You can pick up a smoke grenade and throw it again while it's burning without searing your skin.

Have YOU started a fire using a smoke grenade and no additional source of easily combustible fuel? Because I've thrown those farkers around in the middle of a pine forest covered in dead pine needles.
 
2013-04-20 03:08:49 PM  

LavenderWolf: OR you can actually go by actual evidence rather than speculation.


They admit to pumping large amounts of tear gas into a structure.  This means that the air was thick with CS gas, and eventually the flammable dust.
They admit to shooting tear gas canisters in with 40mm launchers.
 
2013-04-20 03:11:21 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: LavenderWolf: Smoke grenades/tear gas grenades do not cause fires unless you try very hard to make them do that. For example, by covering the inside of the compound in gasoline or kerosene. Which there is ample evidence to support.

Or employing them near where kerosene lamps have been broken?


A) If that were the case, I'd imagine this wouldn't be the absolute first time I've heard of this, having done plenty of reading about Waco, and having debated this shiat in fark threads since time immemorial.

B) If that were the case, that would absolve law enforcement of any responsibility. How on earth would they be able to predict that?

C) Your reply to B will, invariably, be "well they could have just NOT stormed the compound!" to which I say "You're a fool" because no government on the planet is in the business of letting people who kill federal agents escape justice.
 
2013-04-20 03:11:38 PM  
Q: How do you pick up a Branch Davidian girl?

A: With a dustpan.
 
2013-04-20 03:11:42 PM  

Kahabut: Keizer_Ghidorah: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

"Incendiary tear gas"? Does he think that it's MEANT to ignite after being deployed?

I have a practical experiment for you.  Pull the pin on a tear gas can, and hold it in your bare hands for 10 minutes.  You should probably get a mask.  I'll bet anything you care to match that you can't hold that can for more than a minute after you pull the pin.  Do you have some idea why?

Tear gas canisters are a dry chemical mix, and they produce gas by BURNING at over 450 degrees.  The heat is spread to the outer walls of the can and it can ignite any number of things.  It can also have fire actually spitting out the top of the can.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of you...gentlemen arguing over this, as it's super clear none of you has ever actually seen a tear gas can, much less operated one.


Well, I have actually, personally used a lot more smoke than CS.
But I have been around a lot of other people's CS.
And direct answer, yes, CS held in mine own hand, where it is safe to use. BTW, don't put your face close to the business end. Hot!

"My Military ID number is  ***-**-***, Drill Sargent!" was just the first of many.

/WP is my absolute fave, but you have to have a damned good reason cooked up for after the fact
 
2013-04-20 03:11:43 PM  
What happened to the front doors at the compound?
Which agent had the warrant for presentiation on demand?
Who announced themselves as law enforcement agents, and how long did they wait before executing the raid?
 
2013-04-20 03:11:47 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: but saying it's all the government's fault is pushing it a bit


Except prior to this big mess, the ATF was invited by Koresh to the compound to inspect their operation, and the evidence for "illegal weapons" was nothing more than an ATF agent's unsubstantiated opinion with nothing even approaching proof.  Additionally, the local sheriff (who along with other state officials would have been the appropriate authorities to deal with any child abuse allegations) knew Koresh well and was completely left out of the loop when the ATF decided to go in guns-a-blazin'.  None of what happened at Waco had to happen.  As the Branch Davidians held a federal firearms license (and had for some time), the ATF had the right to inspect their records and inventory peacefully, but they *chose* not to even after Koresh's invitation to do so.
 
2013-04-20 03:12:29 PM  

HempHead: Badafuco: Haha! Oh I remember that!

[i763.photobucket.com image 274x369]

Clinton had no attorney general when the raid took place. His first two choices for AG had to with draw after it was revealed one was once a Playboy bunny and the other employed illegal aliens.

Reno took over after it was a two month old clusterfook.

/of course, now a days the Branch Davidians would simoly be called terrorist and no tears would be shed as they burned


Reno was appointed before this started and was in office less than two weeks into the siege.
 
2013-04-20 03:12:43 PM  

pedrop357: MisterRonbo: pedrop357: Forgot to mention that that must explain the police officers caught on camera saying things like "burn the mother farker out", etc.

I'm sure you have a citation for that.

And since it took six hours from the time tear gas was deployed until the fire started, I guess it has some amazing time delay feature before it ignites, right?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9868110/P ol ice-tried-to-burn-out-Christopher-Dorner.html


Except your "burn the mother farker out" comment was in response to  Waco.  Specifically Waco, explicitly Waco, and most definitely not Dorner.

Did you think I wouldn't notice that little lie?
 
2013-04-20 03:13:09 PM  

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: OR you can actually go by actual evidence rather than speculation.

They admit to pumping large amounts of tear gas into a structure.  This means that the air was thick with CS gas, and eventually the flammable dust.
They admit to shooting tear gas canisters in with 40mm launchers.


And if CS gas were as flammable as you think, I would not be here today telling you that you're a fool.

Read and address this point: I have been in an enclosed space with CS gas too thick to see through, in the presence of an ignition source. They put more CS gas pellets on the burner than you would ever see used in real life. The concentration ramped from negligible content to ridiculous concentration. If CS gas were as flammable as you posit, I should have been incinerated. Why am I alive?
 
2013-04-20 03:13:30 PM  

Delawheredad: Except that the government ordered a hundred body bags before the siege even started.


So if I can show you a procurement order for hundreds of body bags by a disaster relief organization when Hurricane Sandy hit, will you conclude they were ready to slaughter flood survivors?

Contingency planning, how does it work?
 
2013-04-20 03:14:39 PM  

pedrop357: What happened to the front doors at the compound?
Which agent had the warrant for presentiation on demand?
Who announced themselves as law enforcement agents, and how long did they wait before executing the raid?


I'm going to go with the small group of federal agents that served the warrant and were shot at, for all of those questions. The Branch Davidians fired on federal agents. What the hell do you think is going to happen? They're going to come back and knock on the door again?
 
2013-04-20 03:15:18 PM  

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: OR you can actually go by actual evidence rather than speculation.

They admit to pumping large amounts of tear gas into a structure.  This means that the air was thick with CS gas, and eventually the flammable dust.
They admit to shooting tear gas canisters in with 40mm launchers.


And that automatically means they started the fire?
 
2013-04-20 03:15:42 PM  

MisterRonbo: pedrop357: MisterRonbo: pedrop357: Forgot to mention that that must explain the police officers caught on camera saying things like "burn the mother farker out", etc.

I'm sure you have a citation for that.

And since it took six hours from the time tear gas was deployed until the fire started, I guess it has some amazing time delay feature before it ignites, right?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9868110/P ol ice-tried-to-burn-out-Christopher-Dorner.html

Except your "burn the mother farker out" comment was in response to  Waco.  Specifically Waco, explicitly Waco, and most definitely not Dorner.

Did you think I wouldn't notice that little lie?


You should re-read the thread then.  We were talking about a cabin and the term "burners", which was Dorner not Waco.
 
2013-04-20 03:17:20 PM  

Too_many_Brians: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.


This. I still have to debate this with Alaskans every time I bring up the ATF.


This would be the same ATF that has given us, among other things, Fast ansd Furious?

An attempted dynamic entry on a armed group with a bunch of kids during daylight?????

The only possible reason for going that route was the good press if it was successful.. A lot less news worthy/career enhancing if they had simply and quitely arrested Koresh in town away from the kids when he was shopping.

The ATFs bungled that whole operation and the follow up by the other Federal agencies was not steller.

Were the charges of child abuse ever substantiated and even if they were how is that a Bureau of Alcohol, Tabacco and Firearms  matter?
 
2013-04-20 03:17:47 PM  

Kahabut: I have a practical experiment for you.  Pull the pin on a tear gas can, and hold it in your bare hands for 10 minutes.  You should probably get a mask.  I'll bet anything you care to match that you can't hold that can for more than a minute after you pull the pin.  Do you have some idea why?

Tear gas canisters are a dry chemical mix, and they produce gas by BURNING at over 450 degrees.  The heat is spread to the outer walls of the can and it can ignite any number of things.  It can also have fire actually spitting out the top of the can.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of you...gentlemen arguing over this, as it's super clear none of you has ever actually seen a tear gas can, much less operated one.


From http://www.justice.gov/publications/waco/wacotwelve.html

 "In the meantime, at 6:00 a.m. HRT Commander Rogers received confirmation that Sage had made telephonic contact with the compound. Rogers ordered CEV-1 to insert gas, using the Mark-V liquid injection system to insert CS gas at the front-left corner of the building. The Mark-V system is a liquid tear gas dispenser that shoots a stream of liquid tear gas (propelled by noncombustible carbon dioxide) approximately 50 feet for a duration of approximately 15 seconds. "

They weren't lobbing incendiary cannisters when the fire broke out.  They were directly injecting CS gas (in liquid form) using carbon dioxide as a propellant.
 
2013-04-20 03:18:37 PM  

LavenderWolf: pedrop357: LavenderWolf: OR you can actually go by actual evidence rather than speculation.

They admit to pumping large amounts of tear gas into a structure.  This means that the air was thick with CS gas, and eventually the flammable dust.
They admit to shooting tear gas canisters in with 40mm launchers.

And if CS gas were as flammable as you think, I would not be here today telling you that you're a fool.

Read and address this point: I have been in an enclosed space with CS gas too thick to see through, in the presence of an ignition source. They put more CS gas pellets on the burner than you would ever see used in real life. The concentration ramped from negligible content to ridiculous concentration. If CS gas were as flammable as you posit, I should have been incinerated. Why am I alive?


God loves a fool?
Sorry 'bout that.
The point has been made that there are two, count 'em, two components of a "burner".
The dispersant and the CS.
These devices can easily be used in a building correctly/incorrectly resulting in FIRE.
 
2013-04-20 03:18:55 PM  

LavenderWolf: pedrop357: What happened to the front doors at the compound?
Which agent had the warrant for presentiation on demand?
Who announced themselves as law enforcement agents, and how long did they wait before executing the raid?

I'm going to go with the small group of federal agents that served the warrant and were shot at, for all of those questions. The Branch Davidians fired on federal agents. What the hell do you think is going to happen? They're going to come back and knock on the door again?


Which one had the warrant?  How did they present it?
Where did the doors go?

If the contention is that this was a lawful warrant service, then the question of who had the warrant, who knocked on the door, what they announced, how long they waited, etc. are extremely relevant.

The ATF, which has had a long sordid history of abuse is accused by the BD residents that survived of shooting without cause, never even trying to peacefully show the warrant, failing to announce themselves, etc.
 
2013-04-20 03:19:28 PM  
April 19th = Conservative Hero Day
upload.wikimedia.org www.bluecorncomics.com
 
2013-04-20 03:20:01 PM  
LavenderWolf:

Sup, I have used smoke grenades. CS gas canisters are just dirty smoke grenades. I've been in heavily concentrated areas of CS gas while in the presence of an ignition source.

You are full of shiat. The actual heat source inside the canister gets very hot, but while the casing does get too hot to touch, that doesn't mean the casing is as hot as the heat source. In fact, it would be just about impossible for the canister to reach the same temperature as the fuel/heat source. You can pick up a smoke grenade and throw it again while it's burning without searing your skin.

Have YOU started a fire using a smoke grenade and no additional source of easily combustible fuel? Because I've thrown those farkers around in the middle of a pine forest covered in dead pine needles.


Are you talking about "tactical smoke" such as might be purchased for playing paintball, or are you talking about military grade material?  Because I'm sure you know, there is a far cry difference.  Furthermore, smoke and tear gas are far and away not similar substances and unless you are playing with IR smoke then you are just proving that you don't know the first thing about the subject.

Tear gas is generally a high temperature reaction.  Smoke is generally not a high temp reaction.  Tear gas is put into 40mm launchable canisters made of tin with no thermal insulation.  Smoke is made to be thrown on the forrest floor without starting a fire.

Typical warning on Gas nades "Throw away from self"
Typical warning on Tear Gas "warning do not use past expiration date" (it might explode instead) "do not use near flammable material" (it starts fires) "Use only outdoors" (the gas is toxic in large concentrations)

Please go back to your arm chair and reconsider your knowledge of the subject.  You could go look up police grade tear gas canisters and launchers, and you could also look into smoke, and you'll find two things. 1) they are not similar.  2) you didn't know what you were talking about.
 
2013-04-20 03:26:13 PM  

Kahabut: LavenderWolf:

Sup, I have used smoke grenades. CS gas canisters are just dirty smoke grenades. I've been in heavily concentrated areas of CS gas while in the presence of an ignition source.

You are full of shiat. The actual heat source inside the canister gets very hot, but while the casing does get too hot to touch, that doesn't mean the casing is as hot as the heat source. In fact, it would be just about impossible for the canister to reach the same temperature as the fuel/heat source. You can pick up a smoke grenade and throw it again while it's burning without searing your skin.

Have YOU started a fire using a smoke grenade and no additional source of easily combustible fuel? Because I've thrown those farkers around in the middle of a pine forest covered in dead pine needles.

Are you talking about "tactical smoke" such as might be purchased for playing paintball, or are you talking about military grade material?  Because I'm sure you know, there is a far cry difference.  Furthermore, smoke and tear gas are far and away not similar substances and unless you are playing with IR smoke then you are just proving that you don't know the first thing about the subject.

Tear gas is generally a high temperature reaction.  Smoke is generally not a high temp reaction.  Tear gas is put into 40mm launchable canisters made of tin with no thermal insulation.  Smoke is made to be thrown on the forrest floor without starting a fire.

Typical warning on Gas nades "Throw away from self"
Typical warning on Tear Gas "warning do not use past expiration date" (it might explode instead) "do not use near flammable material" (it starts fires) "Use only outdoors" (the gas is toxic in large concentrations)

Please go back to your arm chair and reconsider your knowledge of the subject.  You could go look up police grade tear gas canisters and launchers, and you could also look into smoke, and you'll find two things. 1) they are not similar.  2) you didn't know what you were talking abou ...


Having direct personal experience = armchair?
 
2013-04-20 03:29:17 PM  

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: pedrop357: What happened to the front doors at the compound?
Which agent had the warrant for presentiation on demand?
Who announced themselves as law enforcement agents, and how long did they wait before executing the raid?

I'm going to go with the small group of federal agents that served the warrant and were shot at, for all of those questions. The Branch Davidians fired on federal agents. What the hell do you think is going to happen? They're going to come back and knock on the door again?

Which one had the warrant?  How did they present it?
Where did the doors go?

If the contention is that this was a lawful warrant service, then the question of who had the warrant, who knocked on the door, what they announced, how long they waited, etc. are extremely relevant.

The ATF, which has had a long sordid history of abuse is accused by the BD residents that survived of shooting without cause, never even trying to peacefully show the warrant, failing to announce themselves, etc.


Whether you believe the ATF fired the first shots, or the BD fired the first shots, they went to serve the warrant. If you shoot me in the face when I try to serve a warrant, you don't get to then accuse me of not serving the warrant. They knew it was federal agents - they knew, even, that a federal agent had infiltrated the BB - and yet they prepared to "defend themselves" against a warrant. If they weren't sitting at the windows waiting to shoot people, the first shot wouldn't have resulted in exchanged gunfire.

You can accuse law enforcement of botching this operation - specifically, by performing the raid during the day, and with too little force to completely storm the place to stop them from destroying evidence - but accusing them of just burning the BD's compound down just because is just foolishness.
 
2013-04-20 03:29:44 PM  
-They had pulled back once the sent in the tank to breach the wall.

-The tank used a CO2 system to deploy liquid CS.  There was no volatile propellant nor a chemical reaction taking place to produce the CS.

-Nobody was firing tear gas cannisters when the fire started, so all this talk about the high temperature tear gas cannister achieve is irrelevant.
 
2013-04-20 03:29:59 PM  

Kahabut: LavenderWolf:

Sup, I have used smoke grenades. CS gas canisters are just dirty smoke grenades. I've been in heavily concentrated areas of CS gas while in the presence of an ignition source.

You are full of shiat. The actual heat source inside the canister gets very hot, but while the casing does get too hot to touch, that doesn't mean the casing is as hot as the heat source. In fact, it would be just about impossible for the canister to reach the same temperature as the fuel/heat source. You can pick up a smoke grenade and throw it again while it's burning without searing your skin.

Have YOU started a fire using a smoke grenade and no additional source of easily combustible fuel? Because I've thrown those farkers around in the middle of a pine forest covered in dead pine needles.

Are you talking about "tactical smoke" such as might be purchased for playing paintball, or are you talking about military grade material?  Because I'm sure you know, there is a far cry difference.  Furthermore, smoke and tear gas are far and away not similar substances and unless you are playing with IR smoke then you are just proving that you don't know the first thing about the subject.

Tear gas is generally a high temperature reaction.  Smoke is generally not a high temp reaction.  Tear gas is put into 40mm launchable canisters made of tin with no thermal insulation.  Smoke is made to be thrown on the forrest floor without starting a fire.

Typical warning on Gas nades "Throw away from self"
Typical warning on Tear Gas "warning do not use past expiration date" (it might explode instead) "do not use near flammable material" (it starts fires) "Use only outdoors" (the gas is toxic in large concentrations)

Please go back to your arm chair and reconsider your knowledge of the subject.  You could go look up police grade tear gas canisters and launchers, and you could also look into smoke, and you'll find two things. 1) they are not similar.  2) you didn't know what you were talking abou ...


Yes, and your iron says "Do not iron clothes on body."
 
2013-04-20 03:33:17 PM  

Kahabut: LavenderWolf:

Sup, I have used smoke grenades. CS gas canisters are just dirty smoke grenades. I've been in heavily concentrated areas of CS gas while in the presence of an ignition source.

You are full of shiat. The actual heat source inside the canister gets very hot, but while the casing does get too hot to touch, that doesn't mean the casing is as hot as the heat source. In fact, it would be just about impossible for the canister to reach the same temperature as the fuel/heat source. You can pick up a smoke grenade and throw it again while it's burning without searing your skin.

Have YOU started a fire using a smoke grenade and no additional source of easily combustible fuel? Because I've thrown those farkers around in the middle of a pine forest covered in dead pine needles.

Are you talking about "tactical smoke" such as might be purchased for playing paintball, or are you talking about military grade material?  Because I'm sure you know, there is a far cry difference.  Furthermore, smoke and tear gas are far and away not similar substances and unless you are playing with IR smoke then you are just proving that you don't know the first thing about the subject.

Tear gas is generally a high temperature reaction.  Smoke is generally not a high temp reaction.  Tear gas is put into 40mm launchable canisters made of tin with no thermal insulation.  Smoke is made to be thrown on the forrest floor without starting a fire.

Typical warning on Gas nades "Throw away from self"
Typical warning on Tear Gas "warning do not use past expiration date" (it might explode instead) "do not use near flammable material" (it starts fires) "Use only outdoors" (the gas is toxic in large concentrations)

Please go back to your arm chair and reconsider your knowledge of the subject.  You could go look up police grade tear gas canisters and launchers, and you could also look into smoke, and you'll find two things. 1) they are not similar.  2) you didn't know what you were talking abou ...


Oh, also, no. You dumb farker. Not paintball toys.

Believe it or not, but people who are or were in the military aren't banned from using the internet. Crazy, I know...
 
2013-04-20 03:34:19 PM  
It's OK if these people were violating all kinds of laws and that they murdered several federal agents, because they're white Christians.
 
2013-04-20 03:39:22 PM  

LavenderWolf: Whether you believe the ATF fired the first shots, or the BD fired the first shots, they went to serve the warrant. If you shoot me in the face when I try to serve a warrant, you don't get to then accuse me of not serving the warrant. They knew it was federal agents - they knew, even, that a federal agent had infiltrated the BB - and yet they prepared to "defend themselves" against a warrant. If they weren't sitting at the windows waiting to shoot people, the first shot wouldn't have resulted in exchanged gunfire.

You can accuse law enforcement of botching this operation - specifically, by performing the raid during the day, and with too little force to completely storm the place to stop them from destroying evidence - but accusing them of just burning the BD's compound down just because is just foolishness.


If they storm the place in a violent manner and and are fired on, they don't get to act like they were just serving a warrant and the other side started shooting just to avoid the law.
 
2013-04-20 03:39:57 PM  

The Dog Ate My Homework: It's OK if these people were violating all kinds of laws and that they murdered several federal agents, because they're white Christians.


This is what it comes down to.

The conspiracy nuts would have us believe it's okay to ignore egregious violations of federal law because enforcing the law might hurt someone.

You can't let people think that cowering behind children makes them safe. If someone hides behind a child, shoot them through that child, because long term, that is the ONLY WAY to ensure the safety of children in general from these kind of nutjobs.

If you KNOW that I will shoot through a child to kill you, then you have absolutely no reason to hide behind that child.

/I expect this opinion to be wildly unpopular
//but logically, this is the only option to deal with these types.
 
2013-04-20 03:40:27 PM  
DON'T BREATH SMOKE! DILUTE DILUTE OK!

/Dr Bronner's organic riot control agent
 
2013-04-20 03:40:42 PM  

pedrop357: LavenderWolf: Whether you believe the ATF fired the first shots, or the BD fired the first shots, they went to serve the warrant. If you shoot me in the face when I try to serve a warrant, you don't get to then accuse me of not serving the warrant. They knew it was federal agents - they knew, even, that a federal agent had infiltrated the BB - and yet they prepared to "defend themselves" against a warrant. If they weren't sitting at the windows waiting to shoot people, the first shot wouldn't have resulted in exchanged gunfire.

You can accuse law enforcement of botching this operation - specifically, by performing the raid during the day, and with too little force to completely storm the place to stop them from destroying evidence - but accusing them of just burning the BD's compound down just because is just foolishness.

If they storm the place in a violent manner and and are fired on, they don't get to act like they were just serving a warrant and the other side started shooting just to avoid the law.


Sorry but driving a few pickup trucks with trailers is not violent.

You have yet to address anything I've said with any measure of reason. Enjoy your weekend.
 
2013-04-20 03:43:24 PM  

LavenderWolf: The conspiracy nuts would have us believe it's okay to ignore egregious violations of federal law because enforcing the law might hurt someone.


But there weren't any. The juries repeatedly found as much.
 
2013-04-20 03:44:01 PM  

LavenderWolf: Sorry but driving a few pickup trucks with trailers is not violent.


That's not when they were shot at.
 
2013-04-20 03:45:09 PM  

LavenderWolf: But that's not a foreseeable situation. Who would have assumed they covered their compound in fuel?


In homicide law, you take your victim as he is, not as you expect him to be.
 
2013-04-20 03:50:57 PM  

snocone: I love the smell of thermite on 6" steel in the morning!


the-trukstop.com
 
2013-04-20 03:51:32 PM  
www.serendipity.li

Nuke, orbit, sure, etc.
 
2013-04-20 04:03:30 PM  
isnt there a video out there that clearly shows a flamethrower spewing flames off the front of the tank?

I know I saw it. it was a longtime ago but still.
 
2013-04-20 04:04:42 PM  

universebetween: isnt there a video out there that clearly shows a flamethrower spewing flames off the front of the tank?

I know I saw it. it was a longtime ago but still.


No.
 
2013-04-20 04:05:27 PM  

LavenderWolf: pedrop357: LavenderWolf: Whether you believe the ATF fired the first shots, or the BD fired the first shots, they went to serve the warrant. If you shoot me in the face when I try to serve a warrant, you don't get to then accuse me of not serving the warrant. They knew it was federal agents - they knew, even, that a federal agent had infiltrated the BB - and yet they prepared to "defend themselves" against a warrant. If they weren't sitting at the windows waiting to shoot people, the first shot wouldn't have resulted in exchanged gunfire.

You can accuse law enforcement of botching this operation - specifically, by performing the raid during the day, and with too little force to completely storm the place to stop them from destroying evidence - but accusing them of just burning the BD's compound down just because is just foolishness.

If they storm the place in a violent manner and and are fired on, they don't get to act like they were just serving a warrant and the other side started shooting just to avoid the law.

Sorry but driving a few pickup trucks with trailers is not violent.

You have yet to address anything I've said with any measure of reason. Enjoy your weekend.


It was violent, but it was definitely hostile. BD knew they were coming. The feds knew that BD knew they were coming. Yet they still conducted an idiotic raid  with a huge show of force when they easily could have nabbed Koresh or many of the other BDs who commonly went to sell guns at gun shows.
 
2013-04-20 04:11:46 PM  

Wise_Guy: universebetween: isnt there a video out there that clearly shows a flamethrower spewing flames off the front of the tank?

I know I saw it. it was a longtime ago but still.

No.


I think he means this video

It's pretty grainy, so I don't know if it actually shows anything
 
2013-04-20 04:11:50 PM  
2000 years from now, ( A.B.D. 2000 ) the various warring sects of Davidianism will come together for the anticipated Third Coming of the Millennium. Worshiping at the base of the Holy Hand Grenade, their High Priests (Surrounded by thier 12 Y/O acolytes) will administer the sacred BBQ and LoneStar to the faithful.

Amen
 
2013-04-20 04:12:32 PM  

redmid17: It was violent, but it was definitely hostile. BD knew they were coming. The feds knew that BD knew they were coming. Yet they still conducted an idiotic raid with a huge show of force when they easily could have nabbed Koresh or many of the other BDs who commonly went to sell guns at gun shows.


It sort of fits with a "lets impress the new boss" attitude.  If you wanted to connect it to Reno, I give this a higher possibility than a bond-villain plot of hers to snuff out a religious organization.  She wasn't even running the show when it started.
 
2013-04-20 04:14:29 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs


Yeah the government would never do that on purpose. There's no audio of the cops saying burn the cabin down last month when the cop killer was in L.A. up in the hills.

Ignorance must be bliss.
 
2013-04-20 04:15:51 PM  

redmid17: Wise_Guy: universebetween: isnt there a video out there that clearly shows a flamethrower spewing flames off the front of the tank?

I know I saw it. it was a longtime ago but still.

No.

I think he means this video

It's pretty grainy, so I don't know if it actually shows anything


that would be one of the version yes. pretty much yea.

I guess it wasnt a flamethrower it was gas but the gas was well known to be very flammable. so its near negligence to me
 
2013-04-20 04:19:08 PM  

universebetween: redmid17: Wise_Guy: universebetween: isnt there a video out there that clearly shows a flamethrower spewing flames off the front of the tank?

I know I saw it. it was a longtime ago but still.

No.

I think he means this video

It's pretty grainy, so I don't know if it actually shows anything

that would be one of the version yes. pretty much yea.

I guess it wasnt a flamethrower it was gas but the gas was well known to be very flammable. so its near negligence to me


The tanks fired liquid CS propelled with very non-flammable CO2.

They address the woman's video here (#7):  http://www.justice.gov/publications/waco/wacotwelve.html
 
2013-04-20 04:21:13 PM  

Fade2black: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Yeah the government would never do that on purpose. There's no audio of the cops saying burn the cabin down last month when the cop killer was in L.A. up in the hills.

Ignorance must be bliss.


One doesn't prove the other.
 
2013-04-20 04:22:28 PM  
"The Branch Davidians, including children, were being readied for the imminent end of the world (hence Koresh's nickname for the compound, Ranch Apocalypse.) ... Even the youngest members were taught how to handle guns. They were instructed in the most lethal suicide techniques with firearms, being told to aim for the 'soft spot' in the back of the mouth if they faced capture by the 'Babylonians.' " pg 58

"One of my next interviews was with a little girl, almost six years old. I asked her to draw a picture of her home. She drew a picture of the compound. Then I asked her what she thought was going to happen at home. She redrew the same compound with flames everywhere. Atop it was a stairway to heaven." p 70

"During that time other children drew pictures of fire and explosions as well; some even said things like,
'We're going to blow you all up.' and 'Everyone is going to die.' " pg 70

The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog
Bruice D Perry Md, PhD

The above information came directly from the 21 Waco children released in the three days following the initial confrontation on February 28.
 
2013-04-20 04:27:01 PM  
Imagine the Fark thread if that had existed back then?
 
2013-04-20 04:35:15 PM  

Altitude5280: Imagine the Fark thread if that had existed back then?


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-20 04:35:16 PM  

mikaloyd: Tanks dont cause fires. Davidians do


🎶Be do be do be do...🎶
 
2013-04-20 04:54:46 PM  

namegoeshere: "The Branch Davidians, including children, were being readied for the imminent end of the world (hence Koresh's nickname for the compound, Ranch Apocalypse.) ... Even the youngest members were taught how to handle guns. They were instructed in the most lethal suicide techniques with firearms, being told to aim for the 'soft spot' in the back of the mouth if they faced capture by the 'Babylonians.' " pg 58

"One of my next interviews was with a little girl, almost six years old. I asked her to draw a picture of her home. She drew a picture of the compound. Then I asked her what she thought was going to happen at home. She redrew the same compound with flames everywhere. Atop it was a stairway to heaven." p 70

"During that time other children drew pictures of fire and explosions as well; some even said things like,
'We're going to blow you all up.' and 'Everyone is going to die.' " pg 70

The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog
Bruice D Perry Md, PhD

The above information came directly from the 21 Waco children released in the three days following the initial confrontation on February 28.


This clearly proves the Davidians were told by God that the FBI would burn down the place.
 
2013-04-20 04:58:32 PM  
Does no one want to talk about Mr Koresh's history of arson?
 
2013-04-20 05:01:36 PM  
Regardless of how the fire got started the whole response by the FBI/ATF was way overblown imo.  After 51 days and manpower and money being spent they just decided to end it one way or another.  If the government believed Koresh was crazy and would do anything to preserve his cult, why the fark would you full on assault the place when you know there are innocent children inside and he may snap Jonestown style?  Why wasnt this considered a hostage situation, if the government really believed that was what was going on in there?  Can you think of any situation where kids are involved with a supposed crazy person that they would order armored vehicles to start knocking down the walls?  If Koresh was looking for an apocalypse, the ATF sure played their part out correctly.

Consider that after the initial raid attempt there were no more gunfire exchanges or loss of life (until the final second assault anyway).  Koresh on 2 occasions allowed women and children to leave the compound.  They had already cut the electricity and the water.  The feds could have waited it out.  I suspect more members would have left and if there was to be a fiery end, fewer innocents would have died.

The whole thing was bungled and the blame can be spread to everyone involved.
 
2013-04-20 05:03:03 PM  

2wolves: Does no one want to talk about Mr Koresh's history of arson?


Wiki article has nothing on it.  Which court was he convicted in?
 
2013-04-20 05:03:56 PM  
Strange the ATF brought their own film crew with them.
 I seem to remember they were trying to boost their own budget and were talks of folding them into the FBI .

Or why didn't just grab Koresh off the street ?

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-04-20 05:04:56 PM  

Altitude5280: Imagine the Fark thread if that had existed back then?


A 51 day siege?  That would have resulted in an epic thread chain.  The most I can remember was about 30 during the Iran Revolution.
 
2013-04-20 05:07:28 PM  

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: Strange the ATF brought their own film crew with them.
 I seem to remember they were trying to boost their own budget and were talks of folding them into the FBI .

Or why didn't just grab Koresh off the street ?

[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 299x168]


They had to do something to distract everyone from the debacle that was Ruby Ridge and all the allegations of sexual abuse and improper behavior.
 
2013-04-20 05:07:57 PM  

jaytkay: April 19th = Conservative Hero Day
[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x254] [www.bluecorncomics.com image 178x254]


That's too retarded to get you a 2/10. Really, really retarded.  But you do get a 1/10 since I responded, so derp's that....
 
2013-04-20 05:15:06 PM  

The Dog Ate My Homework: It's OK if these people were violating all kinds of laws and that they murdered several federal agents, because they're white Christians.


I don't think that is the argument.   The argument is that this operations was poorly executed by Federal law enforcement and that there were other ways to have handled it that would of limited the risk to the children.

Perhaps arresting Koresh on his way to town when the was outside the security of  his fortress/compound and away from the children instead of putting on a show for the cameras with a dynamic entry raid.

With Koresh in custody you have taken off the head of the cult and they would probably have surrendered peacefully and you would not have had a bunch of dead kids.
 
2013-04-20 05:38:41 PM  
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
People think this was a bad thing? Really?
 
2013-04-20 05:39:44 PM  

Wise_Guy: This clearly proves the Davidians were told by God that the FBI would burn down the place.


Does that work? Let's see... I was just told by God that you, Wise Guy, would give me a month of TF.

Waiting...

In all seriousness, the BDs and Koresh were preparing for the epic battle that would end the world and deliver them all to Crazy Cult Heaven long before the Feds knocked on their door. I agree that the Feds handled the situation badly (understatement) by playing directly into Koresh's CrazymanProphet Us Against The Evil Babylonians Apocalypse fantasy. But the fire wasn't on the Feds. That was a mass suicide planned long before the Feds stopped by.
 
2013-04-20 05:55:22 PM  
Sometimes religious nuttery is an incurable condition.
 
2013-04-20 06:03:41 PM  

hasty ambush: The Dog Ate My Homework: It's OK if these people were violating all kinds of laws and that they murdered several federal agents, because they're white Christians.

I don't think that is the argument.   The argument is that this operations was poorly executed by Federal law enforcement and that there were other ways to have handled it that would of limited the risk to the children.

Perhaps arresting Koresh on his way to town when the was outside the security of  his fortress/compound and away from the children instead of putting on a show for the cameras with a dynamic entry raid.

With Koresh in custody you have taken off the head of the cult and they would probably have surrendered peacefully and you would not have had a bunch of dead kids.


The local sheriff had pretty much been telling the ATF that since July of 93.
 
2013-04-20 06:06:30 PM  

redmid17: HempHead: Badafuco: Haha! Oh I remember that!

[i763.photobucket.com image 274x369]

Clinton had no attorney general when the raid took place. His first two choices for AG had to with draw after it was revealed one was once a Playboy bunny and the other employed illegal aliens.

Reno took over after it was a two month old clusterfook.

/of course, now a days the Branch Davidians would simoly be called terrorist and no tears would be shed as they burned

Reno was appointed before this started and was in office less than two weeks into the siege.




It was a clusterfook long before Feb 28. At least back when the ATF undercover agent inside the compound was first discovered by Koresh.
 
2013-04-20 06:20:35 PM  
White people find stuff while brown people loot.

White people safeguard their rights by stockpiling guns and explosives while brown folk form terror cells.
 
2013-04-20 06:22:33 PM  

MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.


I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.
 
2013-04-20 06:31:11 PM  

Silverstaff: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.


He was very throrough
 
2013-04-20 07:13:20 PM  
I thought the raid on the Branch Davidians was the ONE TRUE accomplishment that Bill Clinton achieved, and I say that unironically.
 
2013-04-20 07:23:17 PM  

YixilTesiphon: Peter von Nostrand: the government should have handled it better. Same as Ruby Ridge, etc.

So, the feds shouldn't have been there, just like with Ruby Ridge?

If the dude was raping kids - and why else do people start cults - then he could have been arrested when out on his daily run.


This.  1-Sir, he's unarmed and carrying a bag of groceries.  Should we arrest him?
2-No, wait until he's in his heavily armed compound with 70 other equally insane people.
 
2013-04-20 07:25:24 PM  
I don't think anyone picked up on this, but the "Hawaiian restaurant" Paul Fatta owns is the BIG KAHUNAS! Yes, the "tasty burger" from pulp fiction. See for yourself:

http://www.corporationwiki.com/California/San-Diego/paul-fatta/44228 07 8.aspx
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2009/jun/24/big-kahuna-flavors/

Apparently it was started by his grandfather.
 
2013-04-20 07:42:27 PM  

pedrop357: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

What illegal weapons?  When did allegations of sexual abuse become the province of the ATF?


None of the weapons they had were illegal. ATF escalated because the BD's refused to let them come in and poke around.
 
2013-04-20 07:50:47 PM  
Dr.Mxyzptlk.

Strange the ATF brought their own film crew with them. I seem to remember they were trying to boost their own budget and were talks of folding them into the FBI . Or why didn't just grab Koresh off the street ?

Or just pull him over when he drove into town, which he did all the time.   Piece of cake.

It looked like they wanted a spectacular takedown video of a hippie compound and a "rescue" of all the hippies including photogenic kids.

It was going to be great PR.

/ The rest is unfortunately history.
 
2013-04-20 07:58:01 PM  

UNC_Samurai: It's hard to let go of your cult.



Yeah, ask former members of the FBI, ATF, CIA, DHS and similar cults.
 
2013-04-20 08:04:45 PM  

stjohn: pedrop357: Shadowknight: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Well, you couldn't very well let them keep raping kids and stockpiling illegal weapons with impunity.  Religious freedom only goes so far when you start doing insane and dangerous stuff like that.  I mean, yes, it ended badly.  No disagreement.  But this was a crazy cult that was never going to let things end well.

What illegal weapons?  When did allegations of sexual abuse become the province of the ATF?

None of the weapons they had were illegal. ATF escalated because the BD's refused to let them come in and poke around.


The worst part is that the ATF did come in and inspect a lot of the "materiel" and refused to talk to Koresh over the phone while at the compound. Instead of listening to the sheriff to "go and talk to them" they set up shiatty surveillance for 6 months. The fact that one of the guys was an FFL and the ATF knew they went out of their way to ensure their paperwork was correct was just icing on the cake.
 
2013-04-20 08:12:13 PM  

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?



It taught us Uhmaricuns to RESPEC AUTHORITAY@!
 
2013-04-20 08:17:41 PM  

Chunks McGunks: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire?  Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?



History.

The Davidians didn't get a chance to write it.
 
2013-04-20 08:20:05 PM  

generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?



You can't blame people for wanting to TOTALLY hold the government blameless in ANY such act.

They don't want to be the next to burn.
 
2013-04-20 08:25:44 PM  
Skimming the comments.

The tombstone of the USA should read:

It Can't Happen Here.
 
2013-04-20 08:34:53 PM  

Matthew Keene: snocone: I love the smell of thermite on 6" steel in the morning!

[the-trukstop.com image 300x438]


No, No!
Jet fuel on people is way different.
 
2013-04-20 09:16:58 PM  

leadmetal: Skimming the comments.

The tombstone of the USA should read:

It Can't Happen Here.



LOL!


and amen
 
2013-04-20 09:41:15 PM  

MisterRonbo: Chunks McGunks: There are people that don't think the government was at fault for setting the Branch Davidians complex on fire? Jesus were you not alive when this happened or something?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html#started

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberately set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)


Thank you, I could not find this for shiat.  It's all that needs to be said on the subject for those with open minds.
 
2013-04-20 09:55:55 PM  
Came for this:
i235.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-20 11:20:45 PM  
RyogaM

It's all that needs to be said on the subject for those with open minds.

Because open minds are known for shutting down when commanded to do so.  Yes SIR!

(Fortunately I have a closed mind)

I'm so closed-minded I don't know how the fire started because I wasn't inside the compound and didn't see it happen.   I do know that the feds were frustrated.  They had lost the shootout, and were losing the stalemate as more and more people started rooting for the Davidians.  Fifty days or something, right?  That's a long time to sit around waiting for someone to give up.

A closed-minded person might think that burning them out had at some point crossed someone's mind.  The normal way it works is you light the enemy hideout, and they coming running into the open, whether they want to or not.  The same human instinct that can get people to jump out a 100th floor window to escape being burned alive will cause even the strongest-willed people to flee a burning house.

That same closed-minded individual might also observe that the fire just so happened to start on a real windy day, and at about the same locations and times that holes were breached in the compound by armored vehicles, which just by random chance happened to attack from the upwind side of the building.

This stuff I know because I watched it happen on live TV.

But then something went wrong.  Nobody of them came out, not that I saw on TV anyway.

I found it perplexing.
 
2013-04-20 11:57:27 PM  

generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?


Are people still clinging to the notion that the police were responsible for Dorner's death when all he had to do was come out of the cabin?
 
2013-04-21 12:01:51 AM  

Silverstaff: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.


If I were holed up in a cabin that had caught fire and my legs still worked, I would try to leave. Didn't read anything about the cops breaking his legs.
 
2013-04-21 12:02:55 AM  

Silverstaff: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.


Also, it wasn't HIS cabin, dumbcluck.
 
2013-04-21 12:03:46 AM  

B.L.Z. Bub: generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?

Are people still clinging to the notion that the police were responsible for Dorner's death when all he had to do was come out of the cabin?


Hey, I'm not responsible for killing that woman, all she had to do was cooperate and let me have sex with her.

Aren't the police supposed to be the better ones?
 
2013-04-21 12:14:44 AM  

pedrop357: B.L.Z. Bub: generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?

Are people still clinging to the notion that the police were responsible for Dorner's death when all he had to do was come out of the cabin?

Hey, I'm not responsible for killing that woman, all she had to do was cooperate and let me have sex with her.

Aren't the police supposed to be the better ones?


Looks like we found Glenn Beck's fark handle.

Where were you in 1990?
 
2013-04-21 12:15:31 AM  

studebaker hoch: RyogaM

It's all that needs to be said on the subject for those with open minds.

Because open minds are known for shutting down when commanded to do so.  Yes SIR!

(Fortunately I have a closed mind)

I'm so closed-minded I don't know how the fire started because I wasn't inside the compound and didn't see it happen.   I do know that the feds were frustrated.  They had lost the shootout, and were losing the stalemate as more and more people started rooting for the Davidians.  Fifty days or something, right?  That's a long time to sit around waiting for someone to give up.

A closed-minded person might think that burning them out had at some point crossed someone's mind.  The normal way it works is you light the enemy hideout, and they coming running into the open, whether they want to or not.  The same human instinct that can get people to jump out a 100th floor window to escape being burned alive will cause even the strongest-willed people to flee a burning house.

That same closed-minded individual might also observe that the fire just so happened to start on a real windy day, and at about the same locations and times that holes were breached in the compound by armored vehicles, which just by random chance happened to attack from the upwind side of the building.

This stuff I know because I watched it happen on live TV.

But then something went wrong.  Nobody of them came out, not that I saw on TV anyway.

I found it perplexing.



How did you manage to evade my "favorites" list thus far?


Fixed.

Positive or negative?

You decide.
 
2013-04-21 12:15:39 AM  

pedrop357: B.L.Z. Bub: generallyso: Are people forgetting what tear gas canisters did to the cabin Dorner was hiding in when they deny any possible culpability for government agents at Waco?

Are people still clinging to the notion that the police were responsible for Dorner's death when all he had to do was come out of the cabin?

Hey, I'm not responsible for killing that woman, all she had to do was cooperate and let me have sex with her.

Aren't the police supposed to be the better ones?


The police weren't threatening Dorner with anything he didn't bring on himself, so no, it is not the same as your threatened rape scenario.

Also, they tried to be the "better ones" by giving him the chance to turn himself in peacefully, but he turned them down. They're not obligated to risk their lives unnecessarily. Since Dorner wouldn't come out even when the farking cabin was on fire, what do you think would have been the result of them going in? Were they obligated to give up their lives to certain death for his sake?
 
2013-04-21 12:23:11 AM  

B.L.Z. Bub: Silverstaff: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.

Also, it wasn't HIS cabin, dumbcluck.



3.bp.blogspot.com

You hate Dorner because he's black, don't you?
 
2013-04-21 01:19:16 AM  

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


It got rid of the Branch Davidians.
 
2013-04-21 01:32:00 AM  

UnspokenVoice: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

It got rid of the Branch Davidians.


Wow you really didn't read the article did you?
 
2013-04-21 01:35:47 AM  
Amos Quito

How did you manage to evade my "favorites" list thus far?

Fixed.

Positive or negative?

You decide.


Works for me either way.  Peace.
 
2013-04-21 02:11:00 AM  

studebaker hoch: Amos Quito

How did you manage to evade my "favorites" list thus far?

Fixed.

Positive or negative?

You decide.

Works for me either way.  Peace.



Peace.
 
2013-04-21 02:23:49 AM  

Amos Quito: B.L.Z. Bub: Silverstaff: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.

Also, it wasn't HIS cabin, dumbcluck.


[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x300]

You hate Dorner because he's black, don't you?


I can't hate a corpse, but when he was alive I hated him because he was a murderer. Nice troll attempt.
 
2013-04-21 02:57:52 AM  

B.L.Z. Bub: Amos Quito: B.L.Z. Bub: Silverstaff: MFAWG: snocone: Anybody heard anything about that big LAPD "investigation" following the Dorner Dealio?

The cops didn't fire a shot last I heard. The fire was extraterrestrial in nature.

I thought they ruled he committed suicide.  Shot himself 183 times, then burned down his own cabin.

Also, it wasn't HIS cabin, dumbcluck.


[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x300]

You hate Dorner because he's black, don't you?

I can't hate a corpse, but when he was alive I hated him because he was a murderer. Nice troll attempt.



 Fortunately for you, that is the verdict that society and history will accept, and equally fortunately, none of his original allegations will ever have to stand to scrutiny.


His "fellow law enforcement brothers" saw to that, didn't they?

Avoided paying those silly "REWARDS" too, didn't they?

So it's all good.

Right?
 
2013-04-21 03:16:30 AM  

studebaker hoch: But then something went wrong. Nobody of them came out, not that I saw on TV anyway.


News flash: things happen that you don't see on tv

http://www.amazon.com/Place-Called-Waco-Survivors-Story/dp/189162042 8


I found it perplexing.

Look up DAVID THIBODEAU , and Clive Doyle,

Then get back to us about the whole perplexed thing.
 
2013-04-21 03:24:24 AM  

MisterRonbo: studebaker hoch: But then something went wrong. Nobody of them came out, not that I saw on TV anyway.

News flash: things happen that you don't see on tv

http://www.amazon.com/Place-Called-Waco-Survivors-Story/dp/189162042 8


I found it perplexing.

Look up DAVID THIBODEAU , and Clive Doyle,

Then get back to us about the whole perplexed thing.


Watch
WACO - The Rules of Engagement
Then get back to us,


Yeah, I'm old enough to remember.
 
2013-04-21 03:26:31 AM  

MisterRonbo: studebaker hoch: But then something went wrong. Nobody of them came out, not that I saw on TV anyway.

News flash: things happen that you don't see on tv

http://www.amazon.com/Place-Called-Waco-Survivors-Story/dp/189162042 8


I found it perplexing.

Look up DAVID THIBODEAU , and Clive Doyle,

Then get back to us about the whole perplexed thing.



There are those who blindly follow the "small cult", and those that blindly follow the BIG CULT.

Which is the greater threat to society?
 
2013-04-21 05:30:43 AM  
FTA: Either way, the agency's actions are indefensible, says Catherine Wessinger, a religious historian at Loyola University in New Orleans, an authority on apocalyptic groups and an expert on the Davidian episode. "If the FBI believed they were dealing with members of a cult who were not in their right minds, then why would the FBI put so much pressure on them and then ultimately carry out an assault which just confirmed David Koresh's prophecies?" Wessinger says.

OK, so what should the ATF and FBI have done?
 
2013-04-21 06:31:08 AM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: FTA: Either way, the agency's actions are indefensible, says Catherine Wessinger, a religious historian at Loyola University in New Orleans, an authority on apocalyptic groups and an expert on the Davidian episode. "If the FBI believed they were dealing with members of a cult who were not in their right minds, then why would the FBI put so much pressure on them and then ultimately carry out an assault which just confirmed David Koresh's prophecies?" Wessinger says.

OK, so what should the ATF and FBI have done?


Not been complete farking morons. If you want more details, read up and use your own common sense.
 
2013-04-21 06:32:30 AM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: FTA: Either way, the agency's actions are indefensible, says Catherine Wessinger, a religious historian at Loyola University in New Orleans, an authority on apocalyptic groups and an expert on the Davidian episode. "If the FBI believed they were dealing with members of a cult who were not in their right minds, then why would the FBI put so much pressure on them and then ultimately carry out an assault which just confirmed David Koresh's prophecies?" Wessinger says.

OK, so what should the ATF and FBI have done?



Having just rewatched Waco: Rules of Engagement, might I humbly suggest that the ATF and the FBI should DIAF?


Justice

Served COLD
 
2013-04-21 08:42:21 AM  

Wise_Guy: reklamfox: Not disagreeing with this at all (personally I believe the government agents probably accidentally started the fire), but wasn't it part of the official report that the ATF planted microphones in the walls of the complex and they managed to pick up bits and pieces of conversations from the church members referring to burning the place down to the ground? I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that as part of the "proof" that the Branch members started the fires, which was presented on tape in the investigation that followed this debacle. My googlefu is weak at work right now, so correct if wrong.

I believe it was on PBS' Frontline where they had audio recordings from inside the compound obtained through microphones places in milk containers and food boxes that they had delivered to the Davidians.  If I'm remembering correctly (this was probably a couple of years after the actual incident) you can clearly hear them talking about where to place the hay bails sprayed with gasoline and when the wall was breached something like 'light it up' from inside the compound.

Seemed pretty clear to me that they burned the place up themselves.  Doomsday cults tend to want to be right no matter what.


I don't know how clear it is, but it sure is damn convenient, isnt it?
 
2013-04-21 09:44:28 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs


You're half-trying to be clever and sarcastic but that is the logical point of view, given that every government seeks empire status by default. Even a drooling moron knows this from reading history.

Of course, if one is lazy and/or intellectually incurious, they seldom read ... yet ironically seem to know exponentially more than others about nearly everything.

We are supposed to distrust our government, you sniveling lackey. We have an entire Amendment devoted to snuffing a government that forgets whom it serves. WTF did you think the 2nd Amendment is for? Protection from ducks and deer?
 
2013-04-21 10:39:37 AM  

Giblet: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

You're half-trying to be clever and sarcastic but that is the logical point of view, given that every government seeks empire status by default. Even a drooling moron knows this from reading history.

Of course, if one is lazy and/or intellectually incurious, they seldom read ... yet ironically seem to know exponentially more than others about nearly everything.

We are supposed to distrust our government, you sniveling lackey. We have an entire Amendment devoted to snuffing a government that forgets whom it serves. WTF did you think the 2nd Amendment is for? Protection from ducks and deer?


The 2nd Amendment stopped being any threat to the government the moment we established a standing army. And it's only become LESS of a threat as technology improves.  No matter how many rifles and shotguns and handguns you have on your wall, it won't mean shiat when an A-10 blows the whole place up.
 
2013-04-21 10:56:03 AM  

LordJiro: Giblet: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

You're half-trying to be clever and sarcastic but that is the logical point of view, given that every government seeks empire status by default. Even a drooling moron knows this from reading history.

Of course, if one is lazy and/or intellectually incurious, they seldom read ... yet ironically seem to know exponentially more than others about nearly everything.

We are supposed to distrust our government, you sniveling lackey. We have an entire Amendment devoted to snuffing a government that forgets whom it serves. WTF did you think the 2nd Amendment is for? Protection from ducks and deer?

The 2nd Amendment stopped being any threat to the government the moment we established a standing army. And it's only become LESS of a threat as technology improves.  No matter how many rifles and shotguns and handguns you have on your wall, it won't mean shiat when an A-10 blows the whole place up.


You assume there is a pilot willing to blow his fellow citizen's shiat away.
Guess what.
 
2013-04-21 10:58:23 AM  
Even the TSA is having problems finding enough idiots to do their pantywaist crap.

You think there is a selection of pilot grade humans that have no morals?
 
2013-04-21 11:06:55 AM  

Giblet: We have an entire Amendment devoted to snuffing a government that forgets whom it serves. WTF did you think the 2nd Amendment is for? Protection from ducks and deer?


To allow citizens to form the militia which, in lieu of a standing army, would protect our nation and its people from foreign invasion and domestic violence. Levying war against the United States, per the Constitution, is simply treason.
 
2013-04-21 01:55:12 PM  

DoctorCal: To allow citizens to form the militia which, in lieu of a standing army, would protect our nation and its people from foreign invasion and domestic violence. Levying war against the United States, per the Constitution, is simply treason.


Um, no. It is to uphold and protect the CONSTITUTION of the United States from ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.

The government can most certainly be an enemy of the Constitution.
 
2013-04-21 02:13:48 PM  

FarkinHostile: DoctorCal: To allow citizens to form the militia which, in lieu of a standing army, would protect our nation and its people from foreign invasion and domestic violence. Levying war against the United States, per the Constitution, is simply treason.

Um, no. It is to uphold and protect the CONSTITUTION of the United States from ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.

The government can most certainly be an enemy of the Constitution.


What part of what I said do you assert to be false? You bolded "domestic violence", and then capped "domestic" in your own explanation. I honestly don't get what specific thing I said you disagree with.
 
2013-04-21 02:20:01 PM  
machoprogrammer:
Well, they did try to arrest them, but hard to when they were holed up in the compound. What were they supposed to do? You can't let them keep raping kids.

Koresh went running in the countryside almost every day.  He could have been arrested without incident that way.  The revisionists idiots like to forget that inconvenient fact.

The BATF found an "anonymous informer" to claim there was a meth lab in the compound, to give them an excuse to go in with a large force.  The reasons were political rather than pragmatic.  They were arrogant and incompetent, and got several agents killed.

If, as as you apologists claim, it was well known prior to the end that the Davidians planned to burn themselves alive if the walls were breached, then it was pretty damn stupid to use tanks to breach the walls.

I guess you think the ideal hostage negotiation technique involves RPGs, amiright?  Doesn't matter how many innocents die, as long as the criminals die too.
 
2013-04-21 02:31:52 PM  

DoctorCal: What part of what I said do you assert to be false? You bolded "domestic violence", and then capped "domestic" in your own explanation. I honestly don't get what specific thing I said you disagree with.


Two completely different species; like 'elephants' and 'elephant seals'.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-21 03:12:02 PM  

DoctorCal: What part of what I said do you assert to be false? You bolded "domestic violence", and then capped "domestic" in your own explanation. I honestly don't get what specific thing I said you disagree with.


Well, it seems to me that you missed one of, if not THE, most important role the 2nd amendment was written for while highlighting something it wasn't written for.  "Domestic violence" has a specific meaning in todays day and age, namely spousal/relative/SO violence, and without a doubt was not a concern in 1776 or in writing the Constitution.

If by "Domestic Violence" you mean "General Self defense", I withdraw my objection. Perhaps I am being too pedantic,
 
2013-04-21 03:34:05 PM  

knobmaker: machoprogrammer:
Well, they did try to arrest them, but hard to when they were holed up in the compound. What were they supposed to do? You can't let them keep raping kids.

Koresh went running in the countryside almost every day.  He could have been arrested without incident that way.  The revisionists idiots like to forget that inconvenient fact.

The BATF found an "anonymous informer" to claim there was a meth lab in the compound, to give them an excuse to go in with a large force.  The reasons were political rather than pragmatic.  They were arrogant and incompetent, and got several agents killed.

If, as as you apologists claim, it was well known prior to the end that the Davidians planned to burn themselves alive if the walls were breached, then it was pretty damn stupid to use tanks to breach the walls.

I guess you think the ideal hostage negotiation technique involves RPGs, amiright?  Doesn't matter how many innocents die, as long as the criminals die too.


To be fair, there had been a meth lab on the compound when the former leader had been running the compound. However Koresh had it dismantled and turned it over to the sheriff, who had been telling the ATF that there were never any drugs founds on or linked to that property after Koresh took over.
 
2013-04-21 03:36:24 PM  

doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?


Reduced future welfare rolls?
 
2013-04-21 03:37:22 PM  
Staying stuck in the past is a waste of time, and no amount of anger can change history.  All we can do is learn from it.

The Davidians, Government, McVeigh clusterfark was a hard lesson learned in how far you can't push government, and how far you can't push citizens.  We're all the same people in the end.
 Best to move forward, and work for a better future.


The reality of government is that it has to be more powerful than you.  Get over that.  The fact that everyone now has a high-definition video camera in their pocket is the best thing that could have ever happened to keep the powerful in check.  Use 'em.

/ fistbump to Amos Quito
 
2013-04-21 03:41:47 PM  

cynicalbastard: doglover: Peter von Nostrand: Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

Regardless of who set the fires, what good did the siege at Waco accomplish?

Reduced future welfare rolls?


Keeps Glen Beck, Alex Jones, etc,  from running out of material?
 
2013-04-21 03:51:10 PM  

FarkinHostile: DoctorCal: What part of what I said do you assert to be false? You bolded "domestic violence", and then capped "domestic" in your own explanation. I honestly don't get what specific thing I said you disagree with.

Well, it seems to me that you missed one of, if not THE, most important role the 2nd amendment was written for while highlighting something it wasn't written for.  "Domestic violence" has a specific meaning in todays day and age, namely spousal/relative/SO violence, and without a doubt was not a concern in 1776 or in writing the Constitution.

If by "Domestic Violence" you mean "General Self defense", I withdraw my objection. Perhaps I am being too pedantic,


Well, I meant by that phrase what was meant by the phrase in Article IV, Section 4. The phrase used elsewhere by the founders was "armed insurrection", as in, we want an armed populace to prevent a band of renegades from usurping the government. Again, the Constitution is bright line clear that warring against the government is treason, with no implicit or explicit exceptions.
 
2013-04-21 03:54:40 PM  

knobmaker: The BATF found an "anonymous informer" to claim there was a meth lab in the compound, to give them an excuse to go in with a large force. The reasons were political rather than pragmatic. They were arrogant and incompetent, and got several agents killed.


Yep, that's how they got the military tanks and personnel.  Since the war on drugs is a bullshiat exception to Posse Comitatus.
 
2013-04-21 03:57:38 PM  
Yep, we can trust the government.  They don't lie to us.

They would never say that people were voluntarily allowing them to search their house when in reality the people weren't being asked at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrbsUVSVl8
 
2013-04-21 04:08:04 PM  
DoctorCal:

 Again, the Constitution is bright line clear that warring against the government is treason, with no implicit or explicit exceptions.


And this is where we would have a disagreement. It doesn't say warring against the Government, it says warring against the United States. The Government is not the United States.

When I joined the Military, I took an oath to "uphold and defend THE CONSTITUTION of the United States, from all enemies, foreign and domestic."  Not the Government, but the Constitution. And considering that the founding fathers were rebels against the established government of the time, it's clear they had no problem with citizens taking up arms against a government which is a domestic enemy of the Constitution.

Not to condone "terrorism", but not everyone who is against the government is a "traitor".  Some might be the most dedicated Patriots, in fact. One mans "Band of renegades" is another mans "Freedom Fighters".
 
2013-04-21 04:18:58 PM  

FarkinHostile: DoctorCal:

 Again, the Constitution is bright line clear that warring against the government is treason, with no implicit or explicit exceptions.


And this is where we would have a disagreement. It doesn't say warring against the Government, it says warring against the United States. The Government is not the United States.

When I joined the Military, I took an oath to "uphold and defend THE CONSTITUTION of the United States, from all enemies, foreign and domestic."  Not the Government, but the Constitution. And considering that the founding fathers were rebels against the established government of the time, it's clear they had no problem with citizens taking up arms against a government which is a domestic enemy of the Constitution.

Not to condone "terrorism", but not everyone who is against the government is a "traitor".  Some might be the most dedicated Patriots, in fact. One mans "Band of renegades" is another mans "Freedom Fighters".


I apologize, you are correct. The Constitution clearly states that warring against the United States is an act of Treason, without exception.

The Constitution also specifies the utility of the armed militia: to suppress insurrections and repel invasions. There's not a peep about overthrowing some future tyrannical form of the government. So actually, what's clear is that the DID have a problem with the idea of citizens of *this* country taking up arms against *this* government. They were explicit.
 
2013-04-21 04:35:23 PM  

DoctorCal: The Constitution also specifies the utility of the armed militia: to suppress insurrections and repel invasions. There's not a peep about overthrowing some future tyrannical form of the government. So actually, what's clear is that the DID have a problem with the idea of citizens of *this* country taking up arms against *this* government. They were explicit.



Yet they did exactly that themselves; overthrew their government. Makes it very difficult for me to believe that they wouldn't be perfectly OK with overthrowing a tyrannical US government. ("Every generation needs a new revolution." Thomas Jefferson)  An interesting fact I just learned: the first two oaths of military service did not mention loyalty to the Constitution, but to the government, then after the Revolutionary War it was changed. The first oath under the Constitution was approved by Act of Congress 29 September 1789

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/oathofenlist.htm

Why change it from "Government" to "Constitution"? I believe, considering the history and well known beliefs of the founders, that they did so to protect what they felt was truly important, the Constitution, even from our own government if it ever became an enemy of the citizens and core beliefs of the United States.

I don't really trust the Government. I do trust the Constitution. Perhaps it's not perfect, but it's pretty damn good, good enough for me to be willing give my life to protect.
 
2013-04-21 06:00:31 PM  

snocone: LordJiro: Giblet: Peter von Nostrand: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

Never let the truth stand in the way of blaming the evil government jack-booted thugs

You're half-trying to be clever and sarcastic but that is the logical point of view, given that every government seeks empire status by default. Even a drooling moron knows this from reading history.

Of course, if one is lazy and/or intellectually incurious, they seldom read ... yet ironically seem to know exponentially more than others about nearly everything.

We are supposed to distrust our government, you sniveling lackey. We have an entire Amendment devoted to snuffing a government that forgets whom it serves. WTF did you think the 2nd Amendment is for? Protection from ducks and deer?

The 2nd Amendment stopped being any threat to the government the moment we established a standing army. And it's only become LESS of a threat as technology improves.  No matter how many rifles and shotguns and handguns you have on your wall, it won't mean shiat when an A-10 blows the whole place up.

You assume there is a pilot willing to blow his fellow citizen's shiat away.
Guess what.


Yes, if the government goes truly rogue (or dumbasses try to revolt over falsely perceived 'tyranny', either way), every single member of the armed forces is going to fight against the government, ignoring years of training and 'programming'.

^ This is what gun nuts actually believe.
 
2013-04-21 06:09:41 PM  
Damn, the anti-government conspiracy theorists sure came out to play in here. Careful, guys, your computer mice are really Reptilian eggs that communicate via telepathy to the New Word Order HQ, where Obama, Hitler, and Genghis Khan are simply waiting for the slightest reason to send an F-22 to napalm your house and round up your family and all of their friends to be executed while the Atlantean armies march over America in the name of Darth Vader of the planet Vulcan.
 
2013-04-21 06:57:57 PM  
Who knew there would be so many people white knighting a serial kiddie rapist.
 
2013-04-21 07:03:37 PM  

2wolves: Who knew there would be so many people white knighting a serial kiddie rapist.


I don't think of any of us are white knighting a serial kiddie rapist. We are, however, severely criticizing the government handling of the situation.
 
2013-04-21 07:17:46 PM  

2wolves: Who knew there would be so many people white knighting a serial kiddie rapist.


Hows life in that black and white world you live in, idiot?
 
2013-04-21 09:12:34 PM  
Wow. Appears I struck a nerve.As for black & white let us throw in some red.or copper.Hindsight is a solid 20/20.
 
2013-04-21 09:20:24 PM  

2wolves: Wow. Appears I struck a nerve.As for black & white let us throw in some red.or copper.Hindsight is a solid 20/20.


You don't need hindsight if you're not functionally retarded or listen to the people who've been telling you exactly how to easily handle the situation for 6 months.

Sorry if that's beyond you.
 
2013-04-21 09:44:35 PM  

FarkinHostile: Why change it from "Government" to "Constitution"? I believe, considering the history and well known beliefs of the founders, that they did so to protect what they felt was truly important, the Constitution, even from our own government if it ever became an enemy of the citizens and core beliefs of the United States.


Well, for starters, it wasn't changed 'from "Government" to "Constitution"'. As the link you provided details, the oath written in 1776 doesn't contain the word "government".

Why did they rewrite the oath in 1789? I believe, considering the history and well known beliefs of the founders, that it was because there wasn't a Constitution in effect until 1789.

FarkinHostile: I do trust the Constitution.


Well, awesome. Then we can trust that you'll honor your oath to protect it, including the fact that warring against the US is an act of Treason, and that the militia are for repelling foreign invasions and putting down violent insurrection.
 
2013-04-21 09:51:38 PM  
Sinking to ad hom attacks so soon?Your argument must be very weak
 
2013-04-21 09:52:48 PM  

2wolves: Sinking to ad hom attacks so soon?Your argument must be very weak


betanews.com

/it's not an ad hominem if it's true
//wasn't talking about you anyway
 
2013-04-21 10:40:24 PM  

Dr.Mxyzptlk.: Strange the ATF brought their own film crew with them.
 I seem to remember they were trying to boost their own budget and were talks of folding them into the FBI .

Or why didn't just grab Koresh off the street ?

[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 299x168]


What happened was that the Feds leaked they were going to arrest him to a reporter, who asked the mailman of the compound more about it. The mailman happened to be friends (or in-law, I forget what) of Koresh. He told Koresh, so he never would've left.
 
2013-04-21 10:57:38 PM  
pedrop357: Kahabut: Keizer_Ghidorah: Mock26: snocone: MFAWG: doglover: 2wolves: doglover: DoctorCal: Have they found a new messiah to rape their kids?

That new messiah would have to be pretty damn gross, because if I recall correctly, the ATF and FBI roasted a fair number of those kids Dorner Kebab style.

No. You're forgetting that Mr Koresh used arson in an earlier incident to erase his mistakes. Stop spreading disinformation.

So they didn't fire military tear gas shells (aka burners) into the bunker after breaching the wall?

Burners refers to the effects, jackass.

Still having trouble with "tear gas" starting fires after all these years.


If Alex Jones says it is true then it must be true!

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!  Sorry.  I could not keep a straight face while typing that!

"Incendiary tear gas"? Does he think that it's MEANT to ignite after being deployed?

I have a practical experiment for you.  Pull the pin on a tear gas can, and hold it in your bare hands for 10 minutes.  You should probably get a mask.  I'll bet anything you care to match that you can't hold that can for more than a minute after you pull the pin.  Do you have some idea why?

Tear gas canisters are a dry chemical mix, and they produce gas by BURNING at over 450 degrees.  The heat is spread to the outer walls of the can and it can ignite any number of things.  It can also have fire actually spitting out the top of the can.

Also, I'm getting a kick out of you...gentlemen arguing over this, as it's super clear none of you has ever actually seen a tear gas can, much less operated one.

THIS.

That, and the police in articles that are very easy to find on google talk about how they are seeking/have sought less flammable models, which they sometimes to refer to as "non-incendiary" or "non-flammable" versions.  Strange of them to refer to a product that's supposedly not flammable as having a 'non-flammable' and/or 'non-incendiary' version to use those terms to prefix the item.


Sigh.  They are referring to the delivery method, not the nature of the gas itself.  Once again, tear gas is NOT flammable.  Not sure why you are having such a hard time with this concept.
 
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