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(io9)   10 once-great TV shows (and the exact moments they started to suck) Missing from the list: The opening credits from the first episode of Star Trek Voyager & Enterprise   (io9.com) divider line 177
    More: Amusing, television shows, love triangles, Laura Palmer, Mulder, BSG, Game of Thrones, galactic empire, Sylar  
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11450 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 20 Apr 2013 at 8:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-20 06:33:07 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Dingleberry Dickwad: I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it.

you're on crack.


There was Star Trek IV, then:


Star Trek: First Contact

TNG - Yesterday's Enterprise

TNG - All Good Things...

DS9 - Trials and Tribble-ations

DS9 - The Visitor


And I'm sure others.  That's off the top of my head.


I don't know why, but I had completely forgotten about most of those, even Trials and Tribble-ations and I referenced that one... May be time to stop drinking for today.


Sorry "First Contact" wasn't that good. It ruin the Borg and many other things. Yes I'm butt hurt about that.
 
2013-04-20 06:54:31 PM

peasandcarrots: bikkurikun: A pretty sound list, I am only missing Eureka; they did the same stupid thing as Fringe, I couldn't get myself interested after they moved to an alternate future.

Don't agree with Supernatural though; it's still fun, although probably it would be a good idea to stop now.

And I am tired of Doctor Who as well; time to let him rest again for a decade or so.

If Doctor Who fails again, it'll probably be because of Stephen Moffatt. These huge, twisted plot tumors he injected into the sixth season had me just kind of hanging on and hoping for the best; every episode introduced some overweening new concept that would have a huge impact on everything for the rest of the season, and even then didn't make much sense. There were only two episodes that didn't require every other episode in the series to make sense, and neither one was very good, as if Moffatt just didn't particularly give a damn about them. The whole thing screamed "vanity project."

It's not a bad thing to have a story arc, or even several story arcs running parallel, but if your viewers don't click with one of those arcs, you're stuck with it for the duration, and it'll just hurt you. (I shudder at the vast quantity of materials trying to force us to like the "gangers." They have action figures of those goddamn things. You know, because science fiction TV just doesn't have enough mistaken-identity duplicate stories.) What started out as the Secret Word ("Bad Wolf") that ran through the whole series, a mystery only discovered late in the game, and solved in the final episode, has become the central plot device upon which all other facets of the series lean, a cheap gimmick to keep idiots like me glued to the set for thirteen weeks.

Moffatt HAS walked this back a bit for Series Seven - maybe he got slapped by a critic or something, I don't know. But the series' dependence on internet buzz for ratings is biting its ass in a big way.


Which must be working, because it usually wins the night on the BBC, and is getting record ratings for BBC America.

Who ratings are in the same range the new series have always been in.
 
2013-04-20 06:55:42 PM

soporific: chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.

I watched Voyager from the first episode to the last. Voyager is the Episode 1 of all the Star Trek series. It had so much potential to be great, but instead it became an embarassment. Especially when you compared it to Babylon 5, a series that managed to do a lot more with a lot less.

The reason I did watch the show is that I was a huge Star Trek fan, and every once in a while they would make a great episode, and I would hold out hope that this was a sign of Voyager turning a corner and becoming a quality program. And then it would go back to business as usual, and right when I was about to write it off, they gave us another good episode.

Another reason I watched was so I could have informed complaints about the show. It's no fun bashing a show sight unseen. I need to know what I'm bashing and I need to know how specificaly the show is disappointing me. Then I need to take to the internet and share my complaints with other like-minded complainers. Sometimes the best part about watching Voyager was going online and reading online critics completely savage that particular episode. (If i ever want to time warp back to the 90's, I simply go here.)

After Voyager ended, I then spent 10 years watching Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark, often so hilariously that it was worth watching. (And why I loved the website Television Without Pity.) It again became a guilty pleasure, especially in the last few seasons, and I never missed an episode because it would occasionally be great, and I had high h ...


http://www.jammersreviews.com/st-voy/s2/tattoo.php

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/voy-tattoo-review-64508 93

Compare these reviews

One clearly watched the episode, the other didn't
 
2013-04-20 07:03:29 PM

FuryOfFirestorm: PacificaFitz: t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average


9/10. You threw subtlety out the window and went full on Troll. The misspellings and the "VOY Borgs > TNG Borgs" statement were genius. You would have earned you a 10/10 is if you said that Chakotay was the best character in the ST series.


I swear I'm not trolling, Voyager was and still is my favorite series in the Star Trek universe.  I am NOT TROLLING.

Second time in as many days I was accused of trolling when it was the furthest thing from my mind....
 
2013-04-20 07:06:03 PM

karasoth: soporific: chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.

I watched Voyager from the first episode to the last. Voyager is the Episode 1 of all the Star Trek series. It had so much potential to be great, but instead it became an embarassment. Especially when you compared it to Babylon 5, a series that managed to do a lot more with a lot less.

The reason I did watch the show is that I was a huge Star Trek fan, and every once in a while they would make a great episode, and I would hold out hope that this was a sign of Voyager turning a corner and becoming a quality program. And then it would go back to business as usual, and right when I was about to write it off, they gave us another good episode.

Another reason I watched was so I could have informed complaints about the show. It's no fun bashing a show sight unseen. I need to know what I'm bashing and I need to know how specificaly the show is disappointing me. Then I need to take to the internet and share my complaints with other like-minded complainers. Sometimes the best part about watching Voyager was going online and reading online critics completely savage that particular episode. (If i ever want to time warp back to the 90's, I simply go here.)

After Voyager ended, I then spent 10 years watching Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark, often so hilariously that it was worth watching. (And why I loved the website Television Without Pity.) It again became a guilty pleasure, especially in the last few seasons, and I never missed an episode because it would occasionally be great, and I ...


Wow, that Blip review is pretty bad. Sounds like dude is trying to be edgy but comes off as a complete dumbass.
 
2013-04-20 07:09:34 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: soporific: chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.

I watched Voyager from the first episode to the last. Voyager is the Episode 1 of all the Star Trek series. It had so much potential to be great, but instead it became an embarassment. Especially when you compared it to Babylon 5, a series that managed to do a lot more with a lot less.

The reason I did watch the show is that I was a huge Star Trek fan, and every once in a while they would make a great episode, and I would hold out hope that this was a sign of Voyager turning a corner and becoming a quality program. And then it would go back to business as usual, and right when I was about to write it off, they gave us another good episode.

Another reason I watched was so I could have informed complaints about the show. It's no fun bashing a show sight unseen. I need to know what I'm bashing and I need to know how specificaly the show is disappointing me. Then I need to take to the internet and share my complaints with other like-minded complainers. Sometimes the best part about watching Voyager was going online and reading online critics completely savage that particular episode. (If i ever want to time warp back to the 90's, I simply go here.)

After Voyager ended, I then spent 10 years watching Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark, often so hilariously that it was worth watching. (And why I loved the website Television Without Pity.) It again became a guilty pleasure, especially in the last few seasons, and I never missed an episode because it would occasionally be gr ...


Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't
 
2013-04-20 07:10:55 PM

PacificaFitz: FuryOfFirestorm: PacificaFitz: t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average


9/10. You threw subtlety out the window and went full on Troll. The misspellings and the "VOY Borgs > TNG Borgs" statement were genius. You would have earned you a 10/10 is if you said that Chakotay was the best character in the ST series.

I swear I'm not trolling, Voyager was and still is my favorite series in the Star Trek universe.  I am NOT TROLLING.

Second time in as many days I was accused of trolling when it was the furthest thing from my mind....


The characters COULD have been good but they had some of the worst trek writing, and some of the worst production choices on a trek series
 
2013-04-20 07:13:17 PM
Avon was the best character on the show, a sardonic, misanthropic computer nerd who was always ready to double-cross Blake but also kind of loved him. (He should be played by Mark Sheppard in the new version, if Syfy is smart.)

I've never watched Blake's 7 but Mark Sheppard makes everything better. Get him into the new Star Wars movies and he'll have played a part in just about every major sci-fi franchise there is.
 
2013-04-20 07:14:18 PM

Mugato: 47 is the new 42: t also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early

I was just about to say that. There was the occasional traitor and Belanna was a biatch but for the most part by the second episode they were one happy family. And no, there were no consequences. Half the ship could be blown apart and by the next episode everything was back to normal. I realize with replicators or whatever that repair procedures might be easier but still.

And the finale sucked. "Hey, there's Earth!" Credits.


That was pretty crappy, obviously Enterprise had a worse one. The Original Series didn't even have a true finale so really only DS9 and TNG had good endings. Yet they were different, TNG didn't end anything, story wise. It was like a big episode, the ship and crew were still on their merry way at the conclusion of the show. Deep Space Nine was a more traditional finale, they actually wrapped things up in it. They both worked for different reasons, TNG helped set up for the movies and since there really wasn't any plans for a DS9 movie, wrap that sucker up. Everyone happy, except Avery Brooks, who didn't like Sisko becoming a god with a baby on the way and is a little crazy.
 
2013-04-20 07:14:27 PM

karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't


That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.
 
2013-04-20 07:18:07 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.


His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism
 
2013-04-20 07:24:37 PM

karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.

His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism


So wait, his racist remarks on a totally unrelated DS9 episode, are cool because his review of the Voyager episode points out racism?
 
2013-04-20 07:27:49 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.

His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism

So wait, his racist remarks on a totally unrelated DS9 episode, are cool because his review of the Voyager episode points out racism?


Are you talking about his Pimp King of the Universe Ben Sisqo gimmick?
 
2013-04-20 07:31:18 PM

karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.

His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism

So wait, his racist remarks on a totally unrelated DS9 episode, are cool because his review of the Voyager episode points out racism?

Are you talking about his Pimp King of the Universe Ben Sisqo gimmick?


Don't know anything about that, I just remember the whole "Big Black Penis" remarks in the early part of the review. Dude seems to have an agenda specifically looking for racism where none is or none is intended.
 
2013-04-20 08:25:16 PM
The Andy Griffith Show B/W - Color
 
2013-04-20 08:36:36 PM

PacificaFitz: FuryOfFirestorm: PacificaFitz: t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average


9/10. You threw subtlety out the window and went full on Troll. The misspellings and the "VOY Borgs > TNG Borgs" statement were genius. You would have earned you a 10/10 is if you said that Chakotay was the best character in the ST series.

I swear I'm not trolling, Voyager was and still is my favorite series in the Star Trek universe.  I am NOT TROLLING.

Second time in as many days I was accused of trolling when it was the furthest thing from my mind....


You may not be trolling us, but your taste in SciFi is certainly trolling you, man.
 
2013-04-20 08:45:03 PM
Wife and I are watching Supernatural right now.  (Near end of season 4.)  I remember a comic (Subnormality) that pointed out that almost every show starts to suck after season 5, although 6 and 7 are somewhat watchable - so I asked a friend whether it was worth watching Supernatural after 5.  He said probably not.  So now that's two votes.
 
2013-04-20 09:06:56 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.

His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism

So wait, his racist remarks on a totally unrelated DS9 episode, are cool because his review of the Voyager episode points out racism?

Are you talking about his Pimp King of the Universe Ben Sisqo gimmick?

Don't know anything about that, I just remember the whole "Big Black Penis" remarks in the early part of the review. Dude seems to have an agenda specifically looking for racism where none is or none is intended.


Its a running gag

Ben Sisqo is every Sam Jackson character amped up to 1000
Janeway is a deranged psychopath who rules over her crew with an iron fist and torture
Captain Archer is a moron
Picard is a patrician with a pathological feat of children
Captain Kirk is Zapp brannigan
 
2013-04-21 12:22:46 AM

Hebalo: 47 is the new 42: Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.

It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.

Like everything on the show, that conflict was shelved in favor of bland, easy to resolve single episode pablum. Characters vehemently disagree with one another, only to have forgotten it completely by the next episode. Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.


Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home.

What the hell did TNG give us. Picard was either "make it so" "engage" or "suggestions?" Wesley was phasing with the Traveler or shutting up. What a load of shiat episode those were. Riker was getting giggity with some androgynous alien. Worf didn't really get interesting until DS9. Basically, it was pretty much Data saves everyone's asses again. Week in and week out.
 
2013-04-21 12:30:05 AM
chewielouie:

Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home.

What the hell did TNG give us. Picard was either "make it so" "engage" or "suggestions?" Wesley was phasing with the Traveler or shutting up. What a load of shiat episode those were. Riker was getting giggity with some androgynous alien. Worf didn't really get interesting until DS9. Basically, it was pretty much Data saves everyone's asses again. Week in and week out.


This
 
2013-04-21 12:32:22 AM

Mugato: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Dingleberry Dickwad: I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it.

you're on crack.

There was Star Trek IV, then:

Star Trek: First Contact
TNG - Yesterday's Enterprise
TNG - All Good Things...
DS9 - Trials and Tribble-ations
DS9 - The Visitor

And I'm sure others.  That's off the top of my head.

City on the Edge of Forever
the one with Sarah Silverman
the one where Sisko has to take on the identity of a 21st century revolutionary guy


Time's Arrow was great too.
 
2013-04-21 12:38:55 AM

chewielouie: Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home


I'm not a huge fan of Voyager, but you're right about this. Of all the characters I thought Janeway changed the most. She was the most annoying, worthless character of all of them at the start of the show, but she eventually became tolerable, and then pretty great. She was practically ruthless by the end.
 
2013-04-21 01:10:48 AM
All I know is in season 3 Adams JUMPS THE FRACKING Galactic a into the atmo and launches his fighters while dropping lock a stone and then jumps out to engage two Basestars. Brass balls that man has. Nothing after that point in season three needs to be remembered.
 
2013-04-21 01:55:32 AM

chewielouie: Hebalo: 47 is the new 42: Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.

It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.

Like everything on the show, that conflict was shelved in favor of bland, easy to resolve single episode pablum. Characters vehemently disagree with one another, only to have forgotten it completely by the next episode. Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.

Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home.

What the hell did TNG give us. Picard was either "make it so" "engage" or "suggestions?" Wesley was phasing with the Traveler or shutting up. What a load of shiat episode those were. Riker was getting giggity with some androgynous alien. Worf didn't really get interesting until DS9. Basically, it was pretty much Data saves everyone's asses again. Week in and week out.


And they pass up several good story arcs. Like the alien conspiracy to take over the Federation. Or that alien race that kidnapped some of the crew for study. What would have made an excellent story arc is when they discovered the Dyson Sphere. Hell they could make the Dysonian Empire the greatest threat the Federation will ever have met. Hell they could be the ones that created the Borgs. Any race is willing to blow up thousands of worlds and murdering trillions of beings to make their vanity project. Will have no problems turning species into the Borg. They might also the ones are responsible of making the doomsday device. (You'll need something to break planets apart) Unfortunately they drop the ball on that one and the Dyson Sphere only got a crappy novel follow up. =(
 
2013-04-21 02:04:00 AM

PacificaFitz: The problem people have with Voyager is that it wasn't on the bridge of the Enterprise.  It was a different story all together.


"It was a different story."
 
2013-04-21 09:47:30 AM

chewielouie: Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home.

What the hell did TNG give us. Picard was either "make it so" "engage" or "suggestions?" Wesley was phasing with the Traveler or shutting up. What a load of shiat episode those were. Riker was getting giggity with some androgynous alien. Worf didn't really get interesting until DS9. Basically, it was pretty much Data saves everyone's asses again. Week in and week out.


forums.pelicanparts.com
And we liked it!  We loved it!

TNG was great for the time it came out.  One of the reasons Voyager gets looked down on for having a lot of the same shortcomings (as far as serialization of characters/plots) is that prior to Voyager coming on, we had already had DS9 and Babylon 5.  Both those shows had well-developed characters and long serialized plots.  Voyager was a huge step backward.  It could have been an amazing show if they tweaked the characters slightly and simply allowed the episodes to have consequences.
 
2013-04-21 11:33:37 AM

NeoCortex42: One of the reasons Voyager gets looked down on for having a lot of the same shortcomings (as far as serialization of characters/plots) is that prior to Voyager coming on, we had already had DS9 and Babylon 5.  ...  Voyager was a huge step backward.


Spot on.
 
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