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(io9)   10 once-great TV shows (and the exact moments they started to suck) Missing from the list: The opening credits from the first episode of Star Trek Voyager & Enterprise   (io9.com) divider line 180
    More: Amusing, television shows, love triangles, Laura Palmer, Mulder, BSG, Game of Thrones, galactic empire, Sylar  
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11449 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 20 Apr 2013 at 8:45 AM (52 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-20 01:17:33 PM

PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now


THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.
 
2013-04-20 01:19:47 PM

NeoCortex42: Techhell: FTA: 6) Lost
This show was always about the relationships, more than about the plot mechanics or big mysteries. My theory is always that when people say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost," they really mean, "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters, where all of this wound up meaning something to them."

Yeah, this is where I went from "I can see that." to "This is utter bullshiate." When I say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost." I mean "I DIDN'T GET ENOUGH ANSWERS FROM LOST." I didn't tune in to see who Kate was farking this week, or whether Sawyer and Juliette were going to make it as a couple, or if Hurley was going to find love. I tuned into find out more about the Dharma project. I wanted to know why there was time travel. I wanted more information about the Others. I wanted more Richard. Why was Walt important? Etc. The relationships were nice, but I didn't care about them. Heck, I didn't even like half the characters. If there hadn't been the mysteries of the show I would have dropped it halfway through the first season.

So the idea that "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters" is insulting.

Almost all of the mysteries on the show were explained.  However, some of them were explained outside the show (mini-sodes, ARG, the epilogue on the DVD sets, etc).  Also, some of the answers simply sucked.  How did the island time travel?  By mixing the light and water.  Yes, that's a farking terrible answer, but it is an answer.


These should have been answered ON THE SHOW. When you introduce major plot points which literally drive the show for seasons at a time - Walt, Dharma, Time Travel, the Others - the main explanation needs to be in the same medium as the introduction. Do I want to know why there are polar bears on the island? Mini-sodes, ARG, DVD extras, a Wiki, etc., are fine. Do I want to know why the Others were so interested in Walt? That was a main thrust of the end of Season 1 and much of Season 2, so it should have been answered on the show itself. Do I want to know why all those reports were simply put into the tube and sent off to pile up in an abandoned part of the Island? Off-show sources are fine. Why was Dharma on the island, how were they able to come and go, why are there still food drops from Dharma years after the Purge? These needed to be answered on the show itself. Why was it so important that Aaron was raised by Claire and no one else? Show; it was probably the only mystery that involved Claire.

There's so much more I could go on about, but I'll just sum up with restating how insulting it is when people claim that the only thing that people cared about was the relationships, like this author did. It wasn't the character relationships that hard core fans spent years of their lives (I think almost literally in some cases; there were some seriously messed up hard core fans of Lost when it was on.) analyzing. It was the mysteries that were introduced, and the mysteries that WEREN'T introduced. "Why did Locke read that book?" "Why was that song playing?" "Why did Desmond pause like that?" "How come Jack didn't remember that incident?" were analyzed and over analyzed to the point of insanity. But it was almost never asked "Why did Kate smile at Jack like she did, with Sawyer right there next to him?"

/"It was always about the relationships." was just Darltons way of passing the buck of poor planning back onto the fans; it wasn't their fault they wrote themselves into a corner, it was the audiences fault for not realizing that the important part of the show was how much the characters needed each other, and how much everyone needed Jack!
 
2013-04-20 01:19:57 PM

Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.


It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.
 
2013-04-20 01:24:16 PM

47 is the new 42: Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.

It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.


Like everything on the show, that conflict was shelved in favor of bland, easy to resolve single episode pablum. Characters vehemently disagree with one another, only to have forgotten it completely by the next episode. Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.
 
2013-04-20 01:31:05 PM

47 is the new 42: t also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early


I was just about to say that. There was the occasional traitor and Belanna was a biatch but for the most part by the second episode they were one happy family. And no, there were no consequences. Half the ship could be blown apart and by the next episode everything was back to normal. I realize with replicators or whatever that repair procedures might be easier but still.

And the finale sucked. "Hey, there's Earth!" Credits.
 
2013-04-20 01:33:02 PM

Techhell: These should have been answered ON THE SHOW. When you introduce major plot points which literally drive the show for seasons at a time - Walt, Dharma, Time Travel, the Others - the main explanation needs to be in the same medium as the introduction. Do I want to know why there are polar bears on the island? Mini-sodes, ARG, DVD extras, a Wiki, etc., are fine. Do I want to know why the Others were so interested in Walt? That was a main thrust of the end of Season 1 and much of Season 2, so it should have been answered on the show itself. Do I want to know why all those reports were simply put into the tube and sent off to pile up in an abandoned part of the Island? Off-show sources are fine. Why was Dharma on the island, how were they able to come and go, why are there still food drops from Dharma years after the Purge? These needed to be answered on the show itself. Why was it so important that Aaron was raised by Claire and no one else? Show; it was probably the only mystery that involved Claire.


The Others were interested in Walt because he was "special".  While they were examining him, they found he was more than they could handle and let him go with Michael.  That was answered in the show.

Dharma was on the Island in order to investigate a bunch of weird shiat.  Some of it dealing directly with the Island, like magnetism, and also just generic renegade science group experiments.  They were able to come and go by using the Lighthouse Station on the mainland to pinpoint where the Island would be, as well as knowing the proper heading to approach and leave the Island successfully.  These were answered on the show.

Why did Aaron have to be raised by Claire?  He didn't.  The "psychic" admitted he was a fraud.  This was answered on the show.
 
2013-04-20 01:36:37 PM

RockofAges: Just watched all of VOY, DS9, TNG, TOS, and ENT over the past year.

All good shows. I'm sure Neo here will obviously say DS9 was the best (the favourite for smart marks, to borrow a wrestling phrase). Personally, I thought DS9 was pretty damn good but that Sisko sadly had a tendency to overact FAR worse than Janeway could "underact".

I would personally say they are all very enjoyable shows with their own pros and cons. DS9 could be a bit too cerebral / political / mystical. I mean really, who cares about in-canon politics? The thematic and philosophical points raised by TNG were much more timeless. In-canon politics don't really provide any exterior satisfaction.

Voyager stands on its own quite well. Paris and Tuvok were actually quite good characters. Tuvok, in particular, is a very nuanced character when you actually sit down and watch it.


I'd go the opposite direction with DS9. The "politics" we're a big part of what made it good. You can't just phaser the alien supercomputer, pontificate a bit on humanistic values, and fly off to a new planet; when something happens on DS9, there are consequences. It's fine to use the Prophets to question the nature of faith and the relationship between religion and reason (for comparison, I'm thinking about the stupid TNG episode in which Picard lectures "god" on morality, then flies away to a new planet), but you have to deal with the day after that, when Bajoran clergy start arguing over what all that means and how it impacts everyday life. TOS dealt with genetic engineering by dumping Khan on Ceti Alpha V and flying away. DS9 asked what we should do when people get back-alley upgrades anyway.
 
2013-04-20 01:41:30 PM

chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.


LOL
watched the first couple, three season.
gave up when YET again their miracle plans to get home were thwarted YET AGAIN.
YAWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

There is no surprise or interest if you always know how an episode will end.
 
2013-04-20 01:42:43 PM

Son of Thunder: I'd go the opposite direction with DS9. The "politics" we're a big part of what made it good. You can't just phaser the alien supercomputer, pontificate a bit on humanistic values, and fly off to a new planet


Yeah and "commenting on the human condition through sci-fi" has been done to death. It's all pretty much been covered. And it's usually pretty ham-fisted. "So this guy who is black on one side and white on the other hates the guy who is white on one side and black on the other. It's about racism! Get it?".

And I like that DS9 was one big story. The suits probably didn't like that because it makes it harder for new viewers to come in at the middle but with shows like Breaking Bad and The Walking Dead that's starting to become a trend, maybe.
 
2013-04-20 01:46:05 PM

namatad: swahnhennessy: As others have noted, BSG started to go bad before the end of season 2. It took some time building up to the boring mess it became, which makes me wonder if some people ever noticed. I just don't get how people defend that show's latter half unless they just let themselves be led into crap and couldn't tell the difference. One thing BSG did was make me wary of TV series. I've never been one to watch much of them, but after that experience I vowed never to start another that wasn't completely wrapped up. I'm not going to get invested in another series only to have it turn stupid, leaving me with a sense of duty to finish it and see where it ends up. As good as that first season of BSG was, it wasn't worth sitting through most of the rest of it. dont get me started on the number of good SF series which were canceled once they got going. (looking at you fox)


I know exactly what you're talking about.

www.nerdcenaries.com
 
2013-04-20 01:50:05 PM
io9: Telling you what to hate since 2007.
 
2013-04-20 01:50:36 PM

HempHead: namatad: swahnhennessy: As others have noted, BSG started to go bad before the end of season 2. It took some time building up to the boring mess it became, which makes me wonder if some people ever noticed. I just don't get how people defend that show's latter half unless they just let themselves be led into crap and couldn't tell the difference. One thing BSG did was make me wary of TV series. I've never been one to watch much of them, but after that experience I vowed never to start another that wasn't completely wrapped up. I'm not going to get invested in another series only to have it turn stupid, leaving me with a sense of duty to finish it and see where it ends up. As good as that first season of BSG was, it wasn't worth sitting through most of the rest of it. dont get me started on the number of good SF series which were canceled once they got going. (looking at you fox)

I know exactly what you're talking about.

[www.nerdcenaries.com image 400x565]


I did appreciate Fringe with the Mantis shout-out.  Apparently, in the alternate universe, Mantis replaced Batman in popular lore.
 
2013-04-20 01:56:16 PM

Techhell: NeoCortex42: Techhell: FTA: 6) Lost
This show was always about the relationships, more than about the plot mechanics or big mysteries. My theory is always that when people say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost," they really mean, "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters, where all of this wound up meaning something to them."

Yeah, this is where I went from "I can see that." to "This is utter bullshiate." When I say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost." I mean "I DIDN'T GET ENOUGH ANSWERS FROM LOST." I didn't tune in to see who Kate was farking this week, or whether Sawyer and Juliette were going to make it as a couple, or if Hurley was going to find love. I tuned into find out more about the Dharma project. I wanted to know why there was time travel. I wanted more information about the Others. I wanted more Richard. Why was Walt important? Etc. The relationships were nice, but I didn't care about them. Heck, I didn't even like half the characters. If there hadn't been the mysteries of the show I would have dropped it halfway through the first season.

So the idea that "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters" is insulting.

Almost all of the mysteries on the show were explained.  However, some of them were explained outside the show (mini-sodes, ARG, the epilogue on the DVD sets, etc).  Also, some of the answers simply sucked.  How did the island time travel?  By mixing the light and water.  Yes, that's a farking terrible answer, but it is an answer.

These should have been answered ON THE SHOW. When you introduce major plot points which literally drive the show for seasons at a time - Walt, Dharma, Time Travel, the Others - the main explanation needs to be in the same medium as the introduction. Do I want to know why there are polar bears on the island? Mini-sodes, ARG, DVD extras, a Wiki, etc., are fine. Do I want to know why the Others were so interested in Walt? That was a main thrust of the end of Season 1 and much of Season 2, so ...




It made a lot more sense to me when I read about the guy suing because he claimed JJ Abrams had stolen his treatise for the carry on series of Kroft childrens series "Land of the Lost".
 
2013-04-20 01:58:31 PM

Hebalo: Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.


Watching Vir, Londo and J'Kar develop over time.
J'Kar's epiphany, that his race might have to perish by doing what is right and that being the only rational choice.

damn
might be time to rewatch the first 4 seasons
 
2013-04-20 01:59:08 PM

HempHead: namatad: swahnhennessy: As others have noted, BSG started to go bad before the end of season 2. It took some time building up to the boring mess it became, which makes me wonder if some people ever noticed. I just don't get how people defend that show's latter half unless they just let themselves be led into crap and couldn't tell the difference. One thing BSG did was make me wary of TV series. I've never been one to watch much of them, but after that experience I vowed never to start another that wasn't completely wrapped up. I'm not going to get invested in another series only to have it turn stupid, leaving me with a sense of duty to finish it and see where it ends up. As good as that first season of BSG was, it wasn't worth sitting through most of the rest of it. dont get me started on the number of good SF series which were canceled once they got going. (looking at you fox)

I know exactly what you're talking about.

[www.nerdcenaries.com image 400x565]




See also: Space Above and Beyond
 
2013-04-20 02:05:23 PM

Hebalo: 47 is the new 42: Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.

It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.

Like everything on the show, that conflict was shelved in favor of bland, easy to resolve single episode pablum. Characters vehemently disagree with one another, only to have forgotten it completely by the next episode. Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.


Babylon 5 was good overall show with a few bad things:  The fourth season wrapped stuff up too quickly, and the fifth season just sucked.  However, I do understand that a good portion of why was they weren't sure if there was going to be a fifth season, so they needed to wrap up the major stuff (Shadow War, Earth Civil War) in Season 4, and then they end up getting a Season 5.  They probably could have done a lot better with Season 5 even considering this.

Mugato: 47 is the new 42: t also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early

I was just about to say that. There was the occasional traitor and Belanna was a biatch but for the most part by the second episode they were one happy family. And no, there were no consequences. Half the ship could be blown apart and by the next episode everything was back to normal. I realize with replicators or whatever that repair procedures might be easier but still.

And the finale sucked. "Hey, there's Earth!" Credits.


Yes, it did.  I forgot to mention that.
 
2013-04-20 02:11:10 PM
How about "Mork and Mindy", when the producers made the disastrous mistake of removing the character of Mindy's dad, resulting in a ratings slide that led to its demise?
 
2013-04-20 02:27:06 PM

47 is the new 42: Babylon 5 was good overall show with a few bad things:  The fourth season wrapped stuff up too quickly, and the fifth season just sucked.  However, I do understand that a good portion of why was they weren't sure if there was going to be a fifth season, so they needed to wrap up the major stuff (Shadow War, Earth Civil War) in Season 4, and then they end up getting a Season 5.  They probably could have done a lot better with Season 5 even considering this.


"This plan was nearly shelved when it appeared Babylon 5 was going to be canceled after the fourth season. J Michael Straczynski pushed forward much of the material he had planned for the fifth season into the fourth, and even filmed the planned series finale for that year. When word came that the fifth season had been granted after all, the series finale was held back and used in its proper place. "

"(The fourth and fifth seasons had to be telescoped into one when the show was going to be prematurely ended. Then it was Un-Cancelled and picked up by TNT, and they had to scramble to create a fifth season, which was not as well-liked by most fans.) "

From a production point of view, they moved ahead with season 4, assuming that there would be no season 5. Period.
In the end, we were EXCITED to see that they were able to wrap everything up in Season 4. 
And then we got the abortion which was Season 5.

I have only rewatched season 5 once since it originally aired. Really not worth the time.
 
2013-04-20 02:35:28 PM

buckler: How about "Mork and Mindy", when the producers made the disastrous mistake of removing the character of Mindy's dad, resulting in a ratings slide that led to its demise?




Moving the show from Thursday nights to Sunday nights killed the show.
 
2013-04-20 02:40:02 PM

namatad: 47 is the new 42: Babylon 5 was good overall show with a few bad things:  The fourth season wrapped stuff up too quickly, and the fifth season just sucked.  However, I do understand that a good portion of why was they weren't sure if there was going to be a fifth season, so they needed to wrap up the major stuff (Shadow War, Earth Civil War) in Season 4, and then they end up getting a Season 5.  They probably could have done a lot better with Season 5 even considering this.

"This plan was nearly shelved when it appeared Babylon 5 was going to be canceled after the fourth season. J Michael Straczynski pushed forward much of the material he had planned for the fifth season into the fourth, and even filmed the planned series finale for that year. When word came that the fifth season had been granted after all, the series finale was held back and used in its proper place. "

"(The fourth and fifth seasons had to be telescoped into one when the show was going to be prematurely ended. Then it was Un-Cancelled and picked up by TNT, and they had to scramble to create a fifth season, which was not as well-liked by most fans.) "

From a production point of view, they moved ahead with season 4, assuming that there would be no season 5. Period.
In the end, we were EXCITED to see that they were able to wrap everything up in Season 4. 
And then we got the abortion which was Season 5.

I have only rewatched season 5 once since it originally aired. Really not worth the time.


Seems like all you did was expand on why, which I actually already knew a lot about.  Is it sad that I think the best Season 5 episode is the one with the two maintence guys?
 
2013-04-20 02:48:27 PM

SpdrJay: Anyone who didn't like the new Battlestar Galactica is a Chechen terrorist.


For a while, I was afraid that the only thing I liked about BSG was Tricia Helfer running around nekkid, so I finished season 1 and went back to rewatch it, skipping over her scenes.

It was still a damn good show.
 
2013-04-20 02:50:45 PM
If only Voyager and BSG could've mind-melded or something, more story arcs and less planet of the week for Voyager, more direct conflict/interaction with the Cylons for BSG.

I'm not religious so much of that aspect was lost on me for BSG, but the political aspects were pretty intriguing and well done.  As others have said, the series felt like it had a specific, few seasons direction at one point, then lost it, then picked it up again and had to hurry to finish it.  But what some would call the B.S. episodes are indeed some of the better ones, the story is about the Galactica, not the fleet, but the Galactica's purpose IS the fleet, so there had to be some episodes about that.

Voyager suffered the opposite fate, they left everything open ended with minor arcs and B.S. episodes rather than evolving or ending as much as they could have.  The ship always getting so heavily damaged should have been the major arc itself, ending up with the nacelles and bridge section being the last remnants of a ship that had to cobble together formerly unknown alien tech to keep going on.  Rather than Neelix, the patron native should've been an engineer that was an amateur jack-of-all-trades in alien tech, not food.  Also, to cement it was Star Trek: Voyager, Janeway should've died, and Chakotay should've remained as 2nd in command.  For me, debate is up for who would have been best to take command, but it is not Chakotay.

/Lost had different problems
 
2013-04-20 02:53:19 PM

bikkurikun: A pretty sound list, I am only missing Eureka; they did the same stupid thing as Fringe, I couldn't get myself interested after they moved to an alternate future.

Don't agree with Supernatural though; it's still fun, although probably it would be a good idea to stop now.

And I am tired of Doctor Who as well; time to let him rest again for a decade or so.


If Doctor Who fails again, it'll probably be because of Stephen Moffatt. These huge, twisted plot tumors he injected into the sixth season had me just kind of hanging on and hoping for the best; every episode introduced some overweening new concept that would have a huge impact on everything for the rest of the season, and even then didn't make much sense. There were only two episodes that didn't require every other episode in the series to make sense, and neither one was very good, as if Moffatt just didn't particularly give a damn about them. The whole thing screamed "vanity project."

It's not a bad thing to have a story arc, or even several story arcs running parallel, but if your viewers don't click with one of those arcs, you're stuck with it for the duration, and it'll just hurt you. (I shudder at the vast quantity of materials trying to force us to like the "gangers." They have action figures of those goddamn things. You know, because science fiction TV just doesn't have enough mistaken-identity duplicate stories.) What started out as the Secret Word ("Bad Wolf") that ran through the whole series, a mystery only discovered late in the game, and solved in the final episode, has become the central plot device upon which all other facets of the series lean, a cheap gimmick to keep idiots like me glued to the set for thirteen weeks.

Moffatt HAS walked this back a bit for Series Seven - maybe he got slapped by a critic or something, I don't know. But the series' dependence on internet buzz for ratings is biting its ass in a big way.
 
2013-04-20 03:14:19 PM

chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.


I watched Voyager from the first episode to the last. Voyager is the Episode 1 of all the Star Trek series. It had so much potential to be great, but instead it became an embarassment. Especially when you compared it to Babylon 5, a series that managed to do a lot more with a lot less.

The reason I did watch the show is that I was a huge Star Trek fan, and every once in a while they would make a great episode, and I would hold out hope that this was a sign of Voyager turning a corner and becoming a quality program. And then it would go back to business as usual, and right when I was about to write it off, they gave us another good episode.

Another reason I watched was so I could have informed complaints about the show. It's no fun bashing a show sight unseen. I need to know what I'm bashing and I need to know how specificaly the show is disappointing me. Then I need to take to the internet and share my complaints with other like-minded complainers. Sometimes the best part about watching Voyager was going online and reading online critics completely savage that particular episode. (If i ever want to time warp back to the 90's, I simply go here.)

After Voyager ended, I then spent 10 years watching Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark, often so hilariously that it was worth watching. (And why I loved the website Television Without Pity.) It again became a guilty pleasure, especially in the last few seasons, and I never missed an episode because it would occasionally be great, and I had high hopes that it would at least end well. It didn't. (If you want to know a show that had a worse final episode than Lost and BSG, it's Smallville.)

Of course, I began watching Arrow for the same reasons, hoping it would be a guilty pleasure like Smallville and Voyager, and wouldn't you know it that show is actually good.
 
2013-04-20 03:20:28 PM
Let's address that elephant in the room. The real reason why "Enterprise" wasn't so popular is because "Star Trek" over saturation. With in a decade we had four "Star Trek" series and when "Enterprise" went into being, people said enough is enough and stopped watching anything "Star Trek". Oh yeah "Voyager" was a big giant suck fest. And it's not because it wasn't on the bridge on the Enterprise. Lost interest in that series half way into the first season. Thought having a Borg queen was bad but "Voyager" had to go full retard and introduce to us Borg children. I only saw one episode with them and I think that was on the last season.

1) Battlestar Galactia: Only saw a few episodes. Too depressing IMHO

2) Heroes: Agree second season was a big disappointment.

3) X-Files: Wasn't all that interested but loved the alien conspiracy part.

4) Fringe: Couldn't get past the first half of the season.

5) Blake's 7: Never saw it.

6) Lost: Never got into it after the first season.

7) Lois and Clark: Loved it wish that they made more

8) Sliders: Started to suck when they introduced the Kromaggs and went full retard on season five.

9) Twin peaks: Never saw it

10) Supernatural: Never saw it
 
2013-04-20 03:20:55 PM

soporific: Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark


I only watched a handful of episodes but at least they did what 5 movies and two really good actors couldn't do, make Lex Luthor not look like an idiot. So it has that going for it.
 
2013-04-20 03:25:31 PM

47 is the new 42: Seems like all you did was expand on why, which I actually already knew a lot about. Is it sad that I think the best Season 5 episode is the one with the two maintence guys?


Due to the cancellation fears, the best final episode of any series I can think of, was in Babylon 5 season 4, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars."  If they could've just ended the series with that episode, (and had it not already been seen), season 5 would be remembered much better.  Should anyone ever recommend the series to a friend (it holds up well) tell them to watch that episode last or second to last.
 
2013-04-20 03:25:48 PM

Mugato: soporific: Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark

I only watched a handful of episodes but at least they did what 5 movies and two really good actors couldn't do, make Lex Luthor not look like an idiot. So it has that going for it.


If you want a good movie Luthor, watch the DC animated movies, particularly Superman:Doomsday and All Star Superman. If Superman Returns had those Luthors, it would have been so much better.
 
2013-04-20 03:32:45 PM

angrymacface: This smells like  The English Major's work. Voyager and Enterprise were both excellent* shows.

*eventually sometimes


No, it wasn't.
And no, they weren't.
 
2013-04-20 03:35:17 PM
I have never watched five seconds of any of those shows.   * walks away all cool and hip like *
 
2013-04-20 03:42:10 PM

The English Major: angrymacface: This smells like  The English Major's work. Voyager and Enterprise were both excellent* shows.

*eventually sometimes

No, it wasn't.
And no, they weren't.


YOU TAKE THAT BACK!
 
2013-04-20 03:48:24 PM
And someone should say something for Lois and Clark so here goes:  I watched it during bored hours three years ago when it was free on wb.com.  I didn't watch it when I was a teenager and it was new, but I remembered it being popular so I gave it a chance.  It's definitely geared towards a couple's audience, something like: "Enough romance for her but enough Superman for a man,"  context being within the mid 1990's.  I didn't see it when it was debuting and season 4 wasn't available, but I could see why it was appealing and was doomed once they got married.
 
2013-04-20 03:53:46 PM

peasandcarrots: bikkurikun: A pretty sound list, I am only missing Eureka; they did the same stupid thing as Fringe, I couldn't get myself interested after they moved to an alternate future.

Don't agree with Supernatural though; it's still fun, although probably it would be a good idea to stop now.

And I am tired of Doctor Who as well; time to let him rest again for a decade or so.

If Doctor Who fails again, it'll probably be because of Stephen Moffatt. These huge, twisted plot tumors he injected into the sixth season had me just kind of hanging on and hoping for the best; every episode introduced some overweening new concept that would have a huge impact on everything for the rest of the season, and even then didn't make much sense. There were only two episodes that didn't require every other episode in the series to make sense, and neither one was very good, as if Moffatt just didn't particularly give a damn about them. The whole thing screamed "vanity project."

It's not a bad thing to have a story arc, or even several story arcs running parallel, but if your viewers don't click with one of those arcs, you're stuck with it for the duration, and it'll just hurt you. (I shudder at the vast quantity of materials trying to force us to like the "gangers." They have action figures of those goddamn things. You know, because science fiction TV just doesn't have enough mistaken-identity duplicate stories.) What started out as the Secret Word ("Bad Wolf") that ran through the whole series, a mystery only discovered late in the game, and solved in the final episode, has become the central plot device upon which all other facets of the series lean, a cheap gimmick to keep idiots like me glued to the set for thirteen weeks.

Moffatt HAS walked this back a bit for Series Seven - maybe he got slapped by a critic or something, I don't know. But the series' dependence on internet buzz for ratings is biting its ass in a big way.


We'll have to disagree. I think the Moffatt years have overall been superior to the RTD period. Even the worst Moffatt episodes have simply been dull, and nothing has approached the deepest depths of suck that RTD did (Fear Her, the end of Love and Monsters, Yoda Doctor and Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor from Last of the Time Lords). The writing has been better overall, the show looks so much better from a production value, and I just like Matt Smith better as the Doctor. The show is even more popular than ever, too. I just don't see the same issues the Moffatt critics have with the show. I've been watching the show since the 80s and I personally think it has been the best it has since the Tom Baker years.

Also, some of the best parts of the classic series were when there was an overarching plot, like the Key to Time season, the Doctor/Master rivalry in Pertwee's second season, and the return of the Master story arc that ran from the end of the 4th Doctor to the beginning of the 5th, and the Cartmel Masterplan episodes towards the end of the show.
 
2013-04-20 03:56:29 PM
That said, I do think that two full Gangers episodes was not a great idea. It should have been a single episode. Again, not terrible, just dull.
 
2013-04-20 04:04:24 PM

soporific: Mugato: soporific: Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark

I only watched a handful of episodes but at least they did what 5 movies and two really good actors couldn't do, make Lex Luthor not look like an idiot. So it has that going for it.

If you want a good movie Luthor, watch the DC animated movies, particularly Superman:Doomsday and All Star Superman. If Superman Returns had those Luthors, it would have been so much better.


Screw that noise. You want Luthor, you watch Justice League Unlimited.
 
2013-04-20 04:18:21 PM

Carousel Beast: PacificaFitz , this is the single best troll job on fark I've seen.

And it's even better if you're being serious.

10/10

Hint: When 99% of everyone else think a show sucked and you didn't, it means to look at you, not try to correct them.


LOL, I wasn't trying to troll, Voyager was my favorite Star Trek.
 
2013-04-20 04:18:23 PM
Supernatural season 7 was a big Dick joke (literally) but season 8 has been very redeeming. It's one of my favorite shows on TV right now.
 
2013-04-20 04:26:42 PM
The X-Files: First Person Shooter.

Not just a bad X-Files episode, but bad TV in general. Usually when sci-fi sucks a character into the computer world, they use a mainframe... not a pre-power PC Mac with a whopping 64 MB RAM and around 150 MB hard drive. That computer was also used to drive a huge, completely realistic holodeck in that episode.

So goddamn bad. They just slowly slid downhill from then on.
 
2013-04-20 04:27:27 PM

Freschel: Let's address that elephant in the room. The real reason why "Enterprise" wasn't so popular is because "Star Trek" over saturation. With in a decade we had four "Star Trek" series and when "Enterprise" went into being, people said enough is enough and stopped watching anything "Star Trek". Oh yeah "Voyager" was a big giant suck fest. And it's not because it wasn't on the bridge on the Enterprise. Lost interest in that series half way into the first season. Thought having a Borg queen was bad but "Voyager" had to go full retard and introduce to us Borg children. I only saw one episode with them and I think that was on the last season.


I kind of agree (you forgot to factor in the movies as well), but I think the bigger factor for Enterprise failing was a subpar previous series (Voyager) and a string of subpar movies.
 
2013-04-20 04:36:52 PM

skinink: "If both Peter and Sylar had stayed dead after the end of season one, there could have been a clean slate and a chance to start over. "
I think both characters killed momentum once they became virtually indestructible/powerful in the first season. And yes Syler should have stayed dead, plus the battle between Peter and Syler was written poorly.

Plus the writers kept painting the storylines into a corner. I hated the multiple versions of a dead Ali Larter character. Just kill her off already.


The original intent was to start each season with a whole new cast (like they do now with Power Rangers), but then the usual Executive Meddling happened, and then we got:

1) Sylar shifting from good to bad every other episode.

2) The limits of Peter's powers changing from every hour - "I can use everyone's powers....no wait, I can only use them one at a time...nope, I can only use my powers after eating a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos in under 5 minutes while doing the Macarena"

3) Characters disappearing and never being mentioned again, like the Irish chick Peter left in another timeline, or the girl that could imitate any skill see watched

4) Everyone else making some of the stupidest decisions ever, especially Hiro. The guy had the power to rewind time, and instead of using it go back and warm everyone about Sylar, or the virus, or anything else bad, he wastes his time trying to bang some waitress with perfect eidectic memory. WTF? You can go bang her AFTER you've stopped Sylar from eating her brains, you dumbass!
 
2013-04-20 04:42:16 PM

PacificaFitz: t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average

The FX were pretty good, I'll grant that. The writing was godawful. The characters were bland and forgettable with the exception of the EMH and Seven. Nobody ever developed, every episode reset the state back to where it was at the start of the episode- which was extra offensive since Voyager was the first ST not developed for syndication-  it was the first ST that they controlled the airing of the episodes. They could have done all sorts of great story arcs, but didn't.

Also, the premise was just awful.

Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?  How can you say they didn't have good charecters?  Janeway was brilliant.  Some of the best ST stories came out of this show!  The Borg might have started with TNG but it was perfected with Voyager.

The problem people have with Voyager is that it wasn't on the bridge of the Enterprise.  It was a different story all together.


9/10. You threw subtlety out the window and went full on Troll. The misspellings and the "VOY Borgs > TNG Borgs" statement were genius. You would have earned you a 10/10 is if you said that Chakotay was the best character in the ST series.
 
2013-04-20 04:42:31 PM

Freschel: Let's address that elephant in the room. The real reason why "Enterprise" wasn't so popular is because "Star Trek" over saturation. With in a decade we had four "Star Trek" series and when "Enterprise" went into being, people said enough is enough and stopped watching anything "Star Trek". Oh yeah "Voyager" was a big giant suck fest. And it's not because it wasn't on the bridge on the Enterprise. Lost interest in that series half way into the first season. Thought having a Borg queen was bad but "Voyager" had to go full retard and introduce to us Borg children. I only saw one episode with them and I think that was on the last season.


I kind of agree, but there's a few other reasons why Enterprise wasn't so popular. The biggie in my mind being the stupid Temporal Cold War bullshiat. I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it. After that there's several things that stick out. Shiatty theme song, trying to explain Klingons without the head ridges when the DS9 episode where Worf says "We don't like to talk about it" was fine, having to forget Star Trek canon in order to enjoy an episode.

Mind you I enjoyed several aspects of the show like Vulcans as conniving assholes, learning more about the Andorians, a somewhat deeper exploration of Vulcans in general, and of course the one thing just about every Trek that's done it has done well, the Mirror Universe episodes. I would love to see a Trek series based entirely in the Mirror universe.
 
2013-04-20 04:44:06 PM

PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now


fark you.
 
2013-04-20 04:44:18 PM

FuryOfFirestorm: skinink: "If both Peter and Sylar had stayed dead after the end of season one, there could have been a clean slate and a chance to start over. "
I think both characters killed momentum once they became virtually indestructible/powerful in the first season. And yes Syler should have stayed dead, plus the battle between Peter and Syler was written poorly.

Plus the writers kept painting the storylines into a corner. I hated the multiple versions of a dead Ali Larter character. Just kill her off already.

The original intent was to start each season with a whole new cast (like they do now with Power Rangers), but then the usual Executive Meddling happened, and then we got:

1) Sylar shifting from good to bad every other episode.

2) The limits of Peter's powers changing from every hour - "I can use everyone's powers....no wait, I can only use them one at a time...nope, I can only use my powers after eating a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos in under 5 minutes while doing the Macarena"

3) Characters disappearing and never being mentioned again, like the Irish chick Peter left in another timeline, or the girl that could imitate any skill see watched

4) Everyone else making some of the stupidest decisions ever, especially Hiro. The guy had the power to rewind time, and instead of using it go back and warm everyone about Sylar, or the virus, or anything else bad, he wastes his time trying to bang some waitress with perfect eidectic memory. WTF? You can go bang her AFTER you've stopped Sylar from eating her brains, you dumbass!


I also think the character of Adam was completely wasted. They could have come up with something to more fully tie him into the modern day heroes. Maybe he ends up being an ancestor to all of them or something. In the end, he went out like a punk.
 
2013-04-20 04:47:27 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: Freschel: Let's address that elephant in the room. The real reason why "Enterprise" wasn't so popular is because "Star Trek" over saturation. With in a decade we had four "Star Trek" series and when "Enterprise" went into being, people said enough is enough and stopped watching anything "Star Trek". Oh yeah "Voyager" was a big giant suck fest. And it's not because it wasn't on the bridge on the Enterprise. Lost interest in that series half way into the first season. Thought having a Borg queen was bad but "Voyager" had to go full retard and introduce to us Borg children. I only saw one episode with them and I think that was on the last season.

I kind of agree, but there's a few other reasons why Enterprise wasn't so popular. The biggie in my mind being the stupid Temporal Cold War bullshiat. I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it. After that there's several things that stick out. Shiatty theme song, trying to explain Klingons without the head ridges when the DS9 episode where Worf says "We don't like to talk about it" was fine, having to forget Star Trek canon in order to enjoy an episode.

Mind you I enjoyed several aspects of the show like Vulcans as conniving assholes, learning more about the Andorians, a somewhat deeper exploration of Vulcans in general, and of course the one thing just about every Trek that's done it has done well, the Mirror Universe episodes. I would love to see a Trek series based entirely in the Mirror universe.


I think there's been some good time travel episodes. The DS9 tribble episode was fun. The Voyager episode where Kes lives her life backward was pretty good. And I also like the TNG episode with Max Headroom. Cause and Effect worked pretty well, too.
 
2013-04-20 04:53:32 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it.


you're on crack.

There was Star Trek IV, then:

Star Trek: First Contact
TNG - Yesterday's Enterprise
TNG - All Good Things...
DS9 - Trials and Tribble-ations
DS9 - The Visitor

And I'm sure others.  That's off the top of my head.
 
2013-04-20 04:55:35 PM

Techhell: FTA: 6) Lost
This show was always about the relationships, more than about the plot mechanics or big mysteries. My theory is always that when people say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost," they really mean, "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters, where all of this wound up meaning something to them."

Yeah, this is where I went from "I can see that." to "This is utter bullshiate." When I say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost." I mean "I DIDN'T GET ENOUGH ANSWERS FROM LOST." I didn't tune in to see who Kate was farking this week, or whether Sawyer and Juliette were going to make it as a couple, or if Hurley was going to find love. I tuned into find out more about the Dharma project. I wanted to know why there was time travel. I wanted more information about the Others. I wanted more Richard. Why was Walt important? Etc. The relationships were nice, but I didn't care about them. Heck, I didn't even like half the characters. If there hadn't been the mysteries of the show I would have dropped it halfway through the first season.

So the idea that "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters" is insulting.


That was one of the worst things about Lost: the writers promised from day one that all questions would be answered (they also "promised" they weren't dead or in purgatory, but we saw how that went...).

Walt gets kidnapped...then nothing. Just a brief appearance here and there, and no explanation why the Others wanted him except that "they wanted him".

Polar bears pop up and attack the castaways. No explanation other than some 2 second remark in the Dharma video, and then it's never mentioned again.

We see a giant statue leg with 6 toes....which is promptly forgotten by the next episode.

It's like they were just pulling sh*t out their asses and throwing it on the wall until it stuck.

You don't show stuff like a giant statue leg with extra digits and just shrug it off like it was nothing. That's just lazy hack writing.
 
2013-04-20 04:57:17 PM
Dafuq did I just read? No good time travel Trek eps? City on Edge of Forever? Yesterday's Enterprise? Sisko as the 50s SciFi writer?

Take that trollin' noise elsewhere.
 
2013-04-20 05:03:00 PM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Dingleberry Dickwad: I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it.

you're on crack.

There was Star Trek IV, then:

Star Trek: First Contact
TNG - Yesterday's Enterprise
TNG - All Good Things...
DS9 - Trials and Tribble-ations
DS9 - The Visitor

And I'm sure others.  That's off the top of my head.


I don't know why, but I had completely forgotten about most of those, even Trials and Tribble-ations and I referenced that one... May be time to stop drinking for today.
 
2013-04-20 05:06:28 PM

47 is the new 42: and retconning Quinn's backstory to being from another Earth and having a brother (which was apparently originally supposed to be an elaborate Kromagg deception, but got nixed by said Hack producer) and then merging Quinn with a fraternal double and making previously mentioned brother (that was originally supposed to be some sort of Kromagg clone of Quinn with some alterations, but as I mentioned before that idea got nixed by the Hack producer) unstuck in space-time, and seriously being able to change the universe you happen to be in during the second episode of Season 5?  That's just bullshiat.

Seasons 1 and 2 are good.  "Double Cross" and "The Guardian" in Season 3 are good as well as"Season's Greedings" (with the exception of Rembrandt getting brainwashed to buy stuff through sublminal advertising) as we get some character development of Wade.  There were a few good or good in concept episodes of Season 4.  I think Just Say Yes would have worked better with Quinn and Wade getting drugged up and the Professor and Rembrandt trying to save them, and the Professor should have been the anti-drug hippie and Pavel the cab driver.

/ Forcing my way through Season 5 on Amazon Instant Video so I can be disappointed in the "ending."


The show jumped the shark once it drifted from the great "what if?" concept and became centered around plots ripped off from other sci-fi media. Then the show f*cked the shark in the ass without lube when they killed off Prof. Arturo and replaced Wade with the human personification of Grumpy Cat.

The show did have a few good concepts along the way, but they never really developed them, like Logan St. Claire. Having an evil female alternate Quinn as an adversary would have been awesome, but she was never heard from again.

If I ever win the lottery, I will pay Tracy Torme and the original cast lots of money to come back and continue the show as if everything after Season 2 never existed.
 
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