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(io9)   10 once-great TV shows (and the exact moments they started to suck) Missing from the list: The opening credits from the first episode of Star Trek Voyager & Enterprise   (io9.com ) divider line
    More: Amusing, television shows, love triangles, Laura Palmer, Mulder, BSG, Game of Thrones, galactic empire, Sylar  
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11457 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 20 Apr 2013 at 8:45 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-20 01:47:15 AM  
Enterprise was crappy for the first season (like every Star Trek series), but by the middle of the 2nd season, they were improving a lot. When they hit season 3 and they went into the overarching arch structure, they hit their stride.

Voyager's first episode was okay. It started to suck pretty quickly though and only improved enough to the point of watchability around maybe season 6.
 
2013-04-20 01:53:06 AM  
Enterprise sucked until it's final season, then it suddenly got pretty good.

Supernatural had a couple iffy seasons lately, but this season they seem to be righting the ship.

The Lost writers clearly wrote themselves into a corner, but they did a decent job getting themselves out of it.
 
2013-04-20 01:55:05 AM  
Star TrAk certainly did suck.
 
2013-04-20 02:06:28 AM  

Bucky Katt: Star TrAk certainly did suck.


It was especially bad when they started doing product placements for Starbox Coffee and McDolan's.
 
2013-04-20 03:16:22 AM  
Oh, i09, John Rhys-Davies didn't quit Sliders... he was fired by a Fox executive he once managed pissed off.

Also, they  forgot to mention why the show went off the rails and became Kromagg of the week... Fox brought in a hack producer to do their bidding, and Hack producer stayed with the show from seasons 3-5 making sure to kill all good ideas and replace them with movie of the week worlds and such.

/and replacing the Professor with Hootie McBoob, and choosing Hootie over Wade.
 
2013-04-20 07:45:38 AM  
I stopped watching Heroes and Supernatural after the first season so they both started their nose dive after that.

Fringe was a weird one. I loved and trusted every decision they made until their final season. I can't find the excitement to continue watching the remaining episode.
 
2013-04-20 08:16:20 AM  

RexTalionis: Voyager's first episode was okay. It started to suck pretty quickly though and only improved enough to the point of watchability around maybe season 6.


Voyager was Gilligan's Island in Space or a Remake of Lost in Space.
No matter what happened during the episode, at the end of the episode (or end of two parter, or episode after a season cliffhanger) they would still be stuck on the island, I mean decades away from ever getting home.

After the first couple episodes where they ALMOST had a miracle way to get home, which didnt work, what was the point again?
YAWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
 
2013-04-20 08:17:56 AM  

Bontesla: Fringe was a weird one. I loved and trusted every decision they made until their final season. I can't find the excitement to continue watching the remaining episode.


Holy Crap, I am so glad that I am not the only one.
I have two episodes left YAWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
who care
 
2013-04-20 08:20:49 AM  
Charmed, when they brought in the girl from The Big Bang Theory and her younger sister as replacement witches.

I don't know what season's what on Supernatural but I assume they mean it should have ended at the apocalypse.
 
2013-04-20 08:25:31 AM  
1) BSG - started sucking mid season two, most of 3, a lot of 4. Four, 10 episode season would have made for an AMAZING series. Four, 20 episode seasons = lots of filler episodes. ooooo black markets are bad, but we will always have them. lolol

2) heroes - came late to the party. Season 1, awesome. Season 2, ok at times. Couldnt finish the rest. WTF, happened with Sylar??? LOL

3) x-files - what are they talking about? there were more seasons after the movie came out? LIES

4) fringe - lol - I watched it. I still have no idea what they were doing.

5) blake's 7 - LOL - It was great/ok for a kids show. Would rather die than watch it again.

6) Lost - never watched it. people say I should ...

7) superman? ever? just say no. but the new movie looks good ...dammit

8) sliders

9) twin peaks - david lynch is a festering abortion

10) supernatural - crap, was this actually good? do I have to watch it now? dammit
 
2013-04-20 08:35:39 AM  

namatad: 10) supernatural - crap, was this actually good? do I have to watch it now? dammit


It's pretty good. It's like X-Files only a sausage fest. It can get gory though if you're turned off by that.

I'm afraid of Psych starting to suck now that Jules finally busted Shawn. Same with Dexter but this is the last season anyway.
 
2013-04-20 08:41:03 AM  

Mugato: namatad: 10) supernatural - crap, was this actually good? do I have to watch it now? dammit

It's pretty good. It's like X-Files only a sausage fest. It can get gory though if you're turned off by that.

I'm afraid of Psych starting to suck now that Jules finally busted Shawn. Same with Dexter but this is the last season anyway.


There are most likely only about a season's worth of Psych episodes left, anyway. So even if it does start to suck, they've had a good solid 100 episodes.
 
2013-04-20 08:50:26 AM  
I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now
 
2013-04-20 08:51:35 AM  

"If both Peter and Sylar had stayed dead after the end of season one, there could have been a clean slate and a chance to start over. "


I think both characters killed momentum once they became virtually indestructible/powerful in the first season. And yes Syler should have stayed dead, plus the battle between Peter and Syler was written poorly.

Plus the writers kept painting the storylines into a corner. I hated the multiple versions of a dead Ali Larter character. Just kill her off already.

 
2013-04-20 08:55:33 AM  
Sliders started to collapse the minute they got rid of uber-cutie Sabrina Lloyd left.  Karie Wuhrer was a hot piece, not doubt, but Sabrina Lloyd was just adorable.
 
2013-04-20 09:03:38 AM  

Mugato: Charmed, when they brought in the girl from The Big Bang Theory and her younger sister as replacement witches.

I don't know what season's what on Supernatural but I assume they mean it should have ended at the apocalypse.


The only reason Supernatural hasn't sucked complete and total ass after the Apocalypse is Castiel. I think I have a mancrush on the guy. This most recent season hasn't been too bad though.
 
2013-04-20 09:03:57 AM  
TFA: The show stumbled somewhat in its third season, with the boxing episode and a boring love triangle.

The boxing episode is widely regarded as one of the best episodes of the series, and probably TV in general.
 
2013-04-20 09:07:42 AM  
Voyager was for the non-nerd ST enthusiast of which I count myself. I enjoyed most of it, thought the writing and fx were above average. If you get stabby and butt-hurt because Janeway wasn't swashbuckling through space a la Kirk then yeah, I see why ST:Voyager would suck for you.

Janeway was like the Florida Evans of ST:Voyager.
 
2013-04-20 09:11:30 AM  

namatad: 4) fringe - lol - I watched it. I still have no idea what they were doing


I understand there was some sort of story arc in there. But the whole series felt like they put ideas, LSD and mescaline in the hat, shook it, and ate whatever they pulled out.
 
2013-04-20 09:13:24 AM  

boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average


The FX were pretty good, I'll grant that. The writing was godawful. The characters were bland and forgettable with the exception of the EMH and Seven. Nobody ever developed, every episode reset the state back to where it was at the start of the episode- which was extra offensive since Voyager was the first ST not developed for syndication-  it was the first ST that they controlled the airing of the episodes. They could have done all sorts of great story arcs, but didn't.

Also, the premise was just awful.
 
2013-04-20 09:18:13 AM  
About 8 of those were never great.
 
2013-04-20 09:19:13 AM  
Hey guys? What's going on? Aaaayy!

cdn-media.hollywood.com
 
2013-04-20 09:19:14 AM  

t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average

The FX were pretty good, I'll grant that. The writing was godawful. The characters were bland and forgettable with the exception of the EMH and Seven. Nobody ever developed, every episode reset the state back to where it was at the start of the episode- which was extra offensive since Voyager was the first ST not developed for syndication-  it was the first ST that they controlled the airing of the episodes. They could have done all sorts of great story arcs, but didn't.

Also, the premise was just awful.


Eh, I thought the premise was ok, but yeah, the writing was all over the place. The characters jumped around all over the place for a while, and like you said, most of the characters other than EMH and Seven were pretty bland. That said EMH and Seven centric episodes were done very well and were about the only characters that showed any kind of growth throughout the series.
 
2013-04-20 09:19:30 AM  

PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show


I'm gonna assume you watched it as a little kid and that's nostalgia talking. Go re-watch it - it's actually kinda amazing how terrible it is. Every character is paper-thin, scripts are terribly written, half of the actors clearly don't care and are totally phoning it in... It's just a bad, bad show.
 
2013-04-20 09:22:59 AM  
Dingleberry Dickwad:
Eh, I thought the premise was ok, but yeah, the writing was all over the place. The characters jumped around all over the place for a while, and like you said, most of the characters other than EMH and Seven were pretty bland. That said EMH and Seven centric episodes were done very well and were about the only characters that showed any kind of growth throughout the series.

The best episodes had the ECH.
 
2013-04-20 09:27:32 AM  

t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average

The FX were pretty good, I'll grant that. The writing was godawful. The characters were bland and forgettable with the exception of the EMH and Seven. Nobody ever developed, every episode reset the state back to where it was at the start of the episode- which was extra offensive since Voyager was the first ST not developed for syndication-  it was the first ST that they controlled the airing of the episodes. They could have done all sorts of great story arcs, but didn't.

Also, the premise was just awful.


Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?  How can you say they didn't have good charecters?  Janeway was brilliant.  Some of the best ST stories came out of this show!  The Borg might have started with TNG but it was perfected with Voyager.

The problem people have with Voyager is that it wasn't on the bridge of the Enterprise.  It was a different story all together.
 
2013-04-20 09:28:07 AM  

wildcardjack: namatad: 4) fringe - lol - I watched it. I still have no idea what they were doing

I understand there was some sort of story arc in there. But the whole series felt like they put ideas, LSD and mescaline in the hat, shook it, and ate whatever they pulled out.


I tried to watch Fringe when it first came on, and caught it here and there, and had much the same reaction.  I went back, though, and bought the first three seasons on DVD (you can get them very cheaply), and it is certainly a show where you have to watch every episode and pay attention to almost every nuance.  It's since become one of my fav sci-fi shows, with only a smattering of weak stories here and there (Anna Torv as Leonard Nimoy was probably the lowest moment of the show).  It did have excellent episodes and excellent acting--how John Noble didn't win awards, I'll never know.

I know a lot of people diss BSG, but it remains one of the greatest sci-fi shows ever.  Yes, there were weak episodes, but compare it, to say, Star Trek: TNG, where even the reviewers say stuff like, well, there were four of five really good episodes in this twenty-two episode season, so IT IS THE GREATEST SCIFI WE'VE EVER SEEN.  Ridiculous.  Even the worst episodes of BSG are better than most of the best episodes of TNG.

\all this Fringe talk and no Anna Torv pics?  Shame, shame
 
2013-04-20 09:29:20 AM  

WippitGuud: Dingleberry Dickwad:
Eh, I thought the premise was ok, but yeah, the writing was all over the place. The characters jumped around all over the place for a while, and like you said, most of the characters other than EMH and Seven were pretty bland. That said EMH and Seven centric episodes were done very well and were about the only characters that showed any kind of growth throughout the series.

The best episodes had the ECH.


And then there was that one episode where the Doctor was inside of Seven, and you have to wonder just what he put inside of Seven while he was inside of Seven.

media.tumblr.com
 
2013-04-20 09:29:42 AM  

Gunther: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show

I'm gonna assume you watched it as a little kid and that's nostalgia talking. Go re-watch it - it's actually kinda amazing how terrible it is. Every character is paper-thin, scripts are terribly written, half of the actors clearly don't care and are totally phoning it in... It's just a bad, bad show.


I actually watched it recently on Netflix, there were some great episodes of that show.  From Q to the Borg, it was a fun show
 
2013-04-20 09:31:57 AM  
A pretty sound list, I am only missing Eureka; they did the same stupid thing as Fringe, I couldn't get myself interested after they moved to an alternate future.

Don't agree with Supernatural though; it's still fun, although probably it would be a good idea to stop now.

And I am tired of Doctor Who as well; time to let him rest again for a decade or so.
 
2013-04-20 09:32:30 AM  

Gunther: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show

I'm gonna assume you watched it as a little kid and that's nostalgia talking. Go re-watch it - it's actually kinda amazing how terrible it is. Every character is paper-thin, scripts are terribly written, half of the actors clearly don't care and are totally phoning it in... It's just a bad, bad show.


That's how it was with me.  I watched Voyager when it was first one.  I was in my teens during its run.  At the time, I thought it was an alright show.  It wasn't as good as TNG, but it was worth watching.  A couple years ago I tried a rewatch and outside of a few episodes, I couldn't believe how incredibly bad it was.  The only parts of the show consistently worthwhile were The Doctor and Seven.

For Enterprise, it was the opposite.  I didn't really give it much of a chance when it was on thanks to the theme song and just the huge change in tone of the show.  What I really wanted was a post-Voyager series to show the Alpha Quadrant after the Dominion War.  However, since I've started watching the series to give it another shot, it's a lot better than I remembered.  I'm only in the first season, and while it's not great, it's probably better than the average first seasons of a Star Trek show.
 
2013-04-20 09:33:52 AM  

namatad: 3) x-files - what are they talking about? there were more seasons after the movie came out? LIES


pretty much this. The show did kind of become worthless after Duchovny left, but it was on its way out for at least 2 or 3 seasons prior.


Even though it was obvious that Laura Palmer's death was never meant to be (quickly) solved, I don't think Twin Peaks overstayed its welcome. I do think the following 3 or 4 episodes after Laura's killer was revealed were kind of crap, but it seems like it refound its footing for the last few episodes.

not mentioned in the article, but I really don't think the writers of Dexter have really been able to figure out what to do with the show once Rita was killed. I mean, I get where the plot's going (i.e. Dexter finding that he really does desire love and for that person to love him for who he is), but the plot doesn't quite work with a Villain of the Season format.
 
2013-04-20 09:35:45 AM  

PacificaFitz: Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?


Paris: Rent-a-center Kirk
Kim: Human wallpaper
Janeway: No consistent character, she just behaved however the plot called for- from one episode to the next she'd swing from being a conciliatory pushover to a guns-blazing renegade.
Tuvok: The worlds' least interesting Vulcan
Chakotay: The rare times when his character was ever explored, we learned he was a stereotype
Belana: Apparently being half-Klingon simply makes you biatchy.
 
2013-04-20 09:38:40 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: I know a lot of people diss BSG, but it remains one of the greatest sci-fi shows ever.  Yes, there were weak episodes, but compare it, to say, Star Trek: TNG, where even the reviewers say stuff like, well, there were four of five really good episodes in this twenty-two episode season, so IT IS THE GREATEST SCIFI WE'VE EVER SEEN.  Ridiculous.  Even the worst episodes of BSG are better than most of the best episodes of TNG.


The difference between the two was that BSG was trying to be a highly-serialized show, but made no effort at all to plan ahead.  Like the article said, the writers killed and resurrected Starbuck simply because the thought it would be cool.  They had no idea at the time how they were going to explain it.  The Opera House is another example of them coming up with a cool scene with no expected payoff for it.
 
2013-04-20 09:40:54 AM  

t3knomanser: PacificaFitz: Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?

Paris: Rent-a-center Kirk
Kim: Human wallpaper
Janeway: No consistent character, she just behaved however the plot called for- from one episode to the next she'd swing from being a conciliatory pushover to a guns-blazing renegade.
Tuvok: The worlds' least interesting Vulcan
Chakotay: The rare times when his character was ever explored, we learned he was a stereotype
Belana: Apparently being half-Klingon simply makes you biatchy.


And don't forget the always-engaging Paris-Kes-Neelix love triangle.  Any episode that featured that as a B-plot was painful to sit through.
 
2013-04-20 09:40:59 AM  

NeoCortex42: The Opera House is another example of them coming up with a cool scene with no expected payoff for it.


That's unfortunately too damn common in serial programming. The interesting thing about "Arrow" (which hasn't actually finished its first season, so they have plenty of chance to fark this up), is that they do a good job building up an event and then paying it off. Even with many stand-alone plot threads, it's obviously well planned.
 
2013-04-20 09:41:53 AM  

NeoCortex42: And don't forget the always-engaging Paris-Kes-Neelix love triangle.


Well, I  had until you brought it up, so thanks for that.

**shudder**
 
2013-04-20 09:42:27 AM  
Following a decent if uneven and abbreviated first season that only survived cancellation due to a massive outcry from fans, season two of "Firefly" rapidly became the stuff of sci-fi legend. Thanks to excellent writing, a creative story arc and a unique method of incorporating suggestions from die-hard "Browncoat" fans, it appeared that "Firefly" was destined for unlimited greatness.

Unfortunately, the incorporation in season three of "PatRebs," a far-right Alliance faction, led to boycotts due to the striking resemblances between PatRebs and today's Tea Party movement. Although the death of series creator Joss Whedon remains unsolved, suspicions about involvement by certain Tea Party members nevertheless remain.

Inevitably, season three was probably cursed from its outset. Although the first four episodes written by Whedon's brother Jed received wide acclaim, Fox abruptly fired him only to be replaced by Michael "I love high explosives" Bay...
 
2013-04-20 09:44:19 AM  

PacificaFitz: t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average

The FX were pretty good, I'll grant that. The writing was godawful. The characters were bland and forgettable with the exception of the EMH and Seven. Nobody ever developed, every episode reset the state back to where it was at the start of the episode- which was extra offensive since Voyager was the first ST not developed for syndication-  it was the first ST that they controlled the airing of the episodes. They could have done all sorts of great story arcs, but didn't.

Also, the premise was just awful.

Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?  How can you say they didn't have good charecters?  Janeway was brilliant.  Some of the best ST stories came out of this show!  The Borg might have started with TNG but it was perfected with Voyager.

The problem people have with Voyager is that it wasn't on the bridge of the Enterprise.  It was a different story all together.


Several problems with that post. How can you say Harry Kim had a good character? Dude was Voyager's O'Brien, as in he was the punching bag that the bad shiat happened to but none of the character development. And most of what he did the entire series was whine and when Seven came on board he just pined for her all the time. Chakotay as a good character? He had moments, but you could tell Beltran was phoning in his performance half the time, and the silly magic space Native American episodes were a bit of a joke. Torres couldn't decide if she was angry all the time or not or whether she hated being half Klingon or not. Janeway wasn't that bad IMO. The actress that played her did the best she could given the material she was given. Tuvok was written as a pretty one dimensional character. The worst offense though was the Borg. They went from the galaxy's biggest badasses where a couple cubes could take out half the damn fleet to where a single ship that's been through hell and back with limited resources was able to take them out regularly.  Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy Voyager to a degree, but the quality of writing for that show was the least consistent of any Trek show I can think of.
 
2013-04-20 09:48:03 AM  
Lost would have been an awesome 10 episode mini series.   With the way that they stretched that 10 episode writing into as many seasons as they did, it ended up like most beer made in the us, watered down without a lot of taste.
 
2013-04-20 09:50:13 AM  

t3knomanser: NeoCortex42: And don't forget the always-engaging Paris-Kes-Neelix love triangle.

Well, I  had until you brought it up, so thanks for that.

**shudder**


One word...Tuvix.
 
2013-04-20 09:51:17 AM  

wildcardjack: namatad: 4) fringe - lol - I watched it. I still have no idea what they were doing

I understand there was some sort of story arc in there. But the whole series felt like they put ideas, LSD and mescaline in the hat, shook it, and ate whatever they pulled out.


Maybe that's why I've never had a problem understanding it.
 
2013-04-20 09:51:32 AM  

docmattic: Following a decent if uneven and abbreviated first season that only survived cancellation due to a massive outcry from fans, season two of "Firefly" rapidly became the stuff of sci-fi legend. Thanks to excellent writing, a creative story arc and a unique method of incorporating suggestions from die-hard "Browncoat" fans, it appeared that "Firefly" was destined for unlimited greatness.

Unfortunately, the incorporation in season three of "PatRebs," a far-right Alliance faction, led to boycotts due to the striking resemblances between PatRebs and today's Tea Party movement. Although the death of series creator Joss Whedon remains unsolved, suspicions about involvement by certain Tea Party members nevertheless remain.

Inevitably, season three was probably cursed from its outset. Although the first four episodes written by Whedon's brother Jed received wide acclaim, Fox abruptly fired him only to be replaced by Michael "I love high explosives" Bay...


I think I love you.
 
2013-04-20 09:53:04 AM  

NeoCortex42: And don't forget the always-engaging Paris-Kes-Neelix love triangle.


Wait, Paris had a thing for Neelix? I never caught that.

And yes, they totally cocked up the Borg, Actually the Borg had been going downhill since The Best of Both Worlds. And that includes the movie.
 
2013-04-20 09:53:32 AM  

NeoCortex42: t3knomanser: PacificaFitz: Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?

Paris: Rent-a-center Kirk
Kim: Human wallpaper
Janeway: No consistent character, she just behaved however the plot called for- from one episode to the next she'd swing from being a conciliatory pushover to a guns-blazing renegade.
Tuvok: The worlds' least interesting Vulcan
Chakotay: The rare times when his character was ever explored, we learned he was a stereotype
Belana: Apparently being half-Klingon simply makes you biatchy.

And don't forget the always-engaging Paris-Kes-Neelix love triangle.  Any episode that featured that as a B-plot was painful to sit through.


I purposely avoided the Kes/Neelix thing.  Worst characters in Star Trek history.  I disagree with the character assessments above, Janeway was a crafty Captain forced to think on her feet at all times, everyone else had steady build up throughout the series.  I'm obviously on my own in this
 
2013-04-20 09:54:55 AM  
media.sacbee.com
Shazzbat!
 
2013-04-20 09:56:52 AM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: t3knomanser: NeoCortex42: And don't forget the always-engaging Paris-Kes-Neelix love triangle.

Well, I  had until you brought it up, so thanks for that.

**shudder**

One word...Tuvix.


I had forgotten about that one.  I'm slowly losing this argument....
 
2013-04-20 09:59:03 AM  
voteordieblog.com
Sgt York?
 
2013-04-20 09:59:19 AM  
Wow, they consider 'Lois and Clark' a great tv series? I thought I was the only person on planet Earth that thought that!

Pity they removed it from netflix 18 months ago or so, I loved rewatching the episodes. It's kinda cheesier than I remember, but it was still a great show.
 
2013-04-20 09:59:32 AM  
How about Defiance after the first 15 minute preview...
 
2013-04-20 10:00:47 AM  

PacificaFitz: Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?  How can you say they didn't have good charecters?


Very, very easily.

Their characters changed episode-to-episode depending on what the plot required of them. One episode Janeway would rather blow up her own ship and let a planet's worth of innocents die than violate the Prime Directive, the next week she'd be doing it for kicks.

That said, at least Kate Mulgrew was a decent actress. The semi-animated mannequin they got to play Chakotay was usually out-acted by the set dressing.
 
2013-04-20 10:03:41 AM  

bikkurikun: A pretty sound list, I am only missing Eureka; they did the same stupid thing as Fringe, I couldn't get myself interested after they moved to an alternate future.

Don't agree with Supernatural though; it's still fun, although probably it would be a good idea to stop now.

And I am tired of Doctor Who as well; time to let him rest again for a decade or so.


No, you're tired of the Russel T. Davies/Steven Moffat Mostest Specialest Girl in All the Universe Show (and maybe Matt Smith, depending on your preference in Doctors). That's the wonderful thing about Doctor Who... every 4 years or so, the cast and crew changes and it's a brand new show.

And, hey, it's been 3 years with Moffat and Smith...
 
2013-04-20 10:03:47 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: all this Fringe talk and no Anna Torv pics? Shame, shame


i151.photobucket.comi151.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-20 10:03:56 AM  

NeoCortex42: whizbangthedirtfarmer: I know a lot of people diss BSG, but it remains one of the greatest sci-fi shows ever.  Yes, there were weak episodes, but compare it, to say, Star Trek: TNG, where even the reviewers say stuff like, well, there were four of five really good episodes in this twenty-two episode season, so IT IS THE GREATEST SCIFI WE'VE EVER SEEN.  Ridiculous.  Even the worst episodes of BSG are better than most of the best episodes of TNG.

The difference between the two was that BSG was trying to be a highly-serialized show, but made no effort at all to plan ahead.  Like the article said, the writers killed and resurrected Starbuck simply because the thought it would be cool.  They had no idea at the time how they were going to explain it.  The Opera House is another example of them coming up with a cool scene with no expected payoff for it.


This is a problem that plagues a lot of shows, mostly because of the "will we cancel it or won't we" thing that the networks do.  Farscape should have been (and was, for the most part) a spectacular show, but they had to rush at the end of season three to figure out what the hell to do with season four.  And then see it cancelled anyway after that.  Remember that the writers had a good plan for a five-year run to begin with, almost completely mapped out.  Ditto with Fringe, which started off very strong for three seasons, then kinda got boxed in for the final two.  Still a lot of good episodes there, but you could tell the writers were struggling to figure out what to do next.

With BSG, I think some of the same thing occured: they had an uber-successful miniseries, and then, as the network started to do its song and dance routine, found that they had to stretch out more than what they felt.  Someone else mentioned this, but BSG would have been better served by a British-style 10 or 12 episode run.  Even so, and I've said this before, sci-fi fans are so used to the concept of shiatty sci-fi that we often take a heaping helping of shiat in order to find that ONE REALLY GOOD EPISODE.  Hence, my Star Trek: TNG analogy, where even the reviewers said things like, hey, season two was awesome, even though 3/4 of it was total shiat.
 
2013-04-20 10:09:14 AM  
Anyone who didn't like the new Battlestar Galactica is a Chechen terrorist.

Lost was one season of show stretched into six seasons....

Sliders was painfully bad after the second season.
 
2013-04-20 10:11:32 AM  

Neeek: TFA: The show stumbled somewhat in its third season, with the boxing episode and a boring love triangle.

The boxing episode is widely regarded as one of the best episodes of the series, and probably TV in general.


Article goes on to say :" justice league: star crossed is where the series jumped the shark pitiably and never looked back in a long downhill slide."
 
2013-04-20 10:21:07 AM  

jake3988: Wow, they consider 'Lois and Clark' a great tv series? I thought I was the only person on planet Earth that thought that!

Pity they removed it from netflix 18 months ago or so, I loved rewatching the episodes. It's kinda cheesier than I remember, but it was still a great show.


What was the name of the time traveling guy?  He did one episode every year and was always the best episode of the seasons.
 
2013-04-20 10:21:18 AM  
24.media.tumblr.com

I wouldn't say it sucked at Sci-Fi, but I missed Forrester and Frank. The segue pieces became tiresome.
 
2013-04-20 10:28:31 AM  

T-Servo: [24.media.tumblr.com image 425x288]

I wouldn't say it sucked at Sci-Fi, but I missed Forrester and Frank. The segue pieces became tiresome.


eh, those segments were always kind of hit or miss. The movie portions were just as good as anything from the Comedy Central-era, though.
 
2013-04-20 10:29:23 AM  

PacificaFitz: Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?  How can you say they didn't have good charecters?


Tuvak? Tuvak was just black spock. "That is not logical" etc, plus a Pon Farr episode.
 
2013-04-20 10:30:42 AM  
Sigh, Lois & Clark.  It was awesome while it lasted.
 
2013-04-20 10:32:07 AM  

FeedTheCollapse: T-Servo: [24.media.tumblr.com image 425x288]

I wouldn't say it sucked at Sci-Fi, but I missed Forrester and Frank. The segue pieces became tiresome.

eh, those segments were always kind of hit or miss. The movie portions were just as good as anything from the Comedy Central-era, though.


I always FFW'd the host segments no matter what season but I liked the movies during the Sci-Fi years best.


farkeruk: Tuvak? Tuvak was just black spock.


Only less interesting because he was a pure Vulcan, which is boring.
 
2013-04-20 10:32:27 AM  

jake3988: Wow, they consider 'Lois and Clark' a great tv series? I thought I was the only person on planet Earth that thought that!

Pity they removed it from netflix 18 months ago or so, I loved rewatching the episodes. It's kinda cheesier than I remember, but it was still a great show.


This.
 
2013-04-20 10:33:17 AM  

Neeek: TFA: The show stumbled somewhat in its third season, with the boxing episode and a boring love triangle.

The boxing episode is widely regarded as one of the best episodes of the series, and probably TV in general.


so, just trolling?
meh
1/100
 
2013-04-20 10:40:15 AM  

T-Servo: [24.media.tumblr.com image 425x288]

I wouldn't say it sucked at Sci-Fi, but I missed Forrester and Frank. The segue pieces became tiresome.


I loved Forrester and Frank, but I still liked the Sci-Fi-era host segments better. The invention exchanges always felt like recycled gags from a failed prop comic (because they were), and the Joel-era segments always felt like they were there to fill time, not because somebody thought they were truly funny.
 
2013-04-20 10:41:43 AM  

T-Servo: [24.media.tumblr.com image 425x288]

I wouldn't say it sucked at Sci-Fi, but I missed Forrester and Frank. The segue pieces became tiresome.


I think the Sci-Fi years were the high point of the show as far as movie selection and riffing goes.  The riff writing was as tight as ever and the movies gave us the likes of Puma Man, Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, and Space Mutiny.  The host segments were generally terrible, but they're a very small part of the show.

What really hurt the segments was Sci-Fi Channel's insistence that the host segments be serialized.  So we ended up with Planet of the Apes, The Observers, Lost in Space, and Ancient Rome.  Once they got to the last season, Sci-Fi stopped ordering them around and allowed them to just hang out in the castle and have non-science fiction films and shorts again.
 
2013-04-20 10:48:51 AM  

FeedTheCollapse: T-Servo: [24.media.tumblr.com image 425x288]

I wouldn't say it sucked at Sci-Fi, but I missed Forrester and Frank. The segue pieces became tiresome.

eh, those segments were always kind of hit or miss. The movie portions were just as good as anything from the Comedy Central-era, though.


Agreed on both points. The earlier ones had stinkers ("Side hackin' is the thing to do") and Pearl & Co had some good ones (Bobo making a sandwich out of Observer's brain). But I'd say the good/bad ratios were better when it was Forrester & Frank. And the best of Pearl & Co never reached the heights of the best of Forrester & Frank.
 
2013-04-20 11:01:15 AM  
FTA: 6) Lost
This show was always about the relationships, more than about the plot mechanics or big mysteries. My theory is always that when people say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost," they really mean, "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters, where all of this wound up meaning something to them."


Yeah, this is where I went from "I can see that." to "This is utter bullshiate." When I say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost." I mean "I DIDN'T GET ENOUGH ANSWERS FROM LOST." I didn't tune in to see who Kate was farking this week, or whether Sawyer and Juliette were going to make it as a couple, or if Hurley was going to find love. I tuned into find out more about the Dharma project. I wanted to know why there was time travel. I wanted more information about the Others. I wanted more Richard. Why was Walt important? Etc. The relationships were nice, but I didn't care about them. Heck, I didn't even like half the characters. If there hadn't been the mysteries of the show I would have dropped it halfway through the first season.

So the idea that "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters" is insulting.
 
2013-04-20 11:05:16 AM  

RexTalionis: Enterprise was crappy for the first season (like every Star Trek series), but by the middle of the 2nd season, they were improving a lot. When they hit season 3 and they went into the overarching arch structure, they hit their stride.

Voyager's first episode was okay. It started to suck pretty quickly though and only improved enough to the point of watchability around maybe season 6.


Completely agree on Enterprise.

My main problem with Voyager was that each season had a handful of good episodes scattered among a lot of crap. I didn't feel like I could even rate one season as significantly better than another.
 
2013-04-20 11:06:58 AM  

Techhell: FTA: 6) Lost
This show was always about the relationships, more than about the plot mechanics or big mysteries. My theory is always that when people say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost," they really mean, "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters, where all of this wound up meaning something to them."

Yeah, this is where I went from "I can see that." to "This is utter bullshiate." When I say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost." I mean "I DIDN'T GET ENOUGH ANSWERS FROM LOST." I didn't tune in to see who Kate was farking this week, or whether Sawyer and Juliette were going to make it as a couple, or if Hurley was going to find love. I tuned into find out more about the Dharma project. I wanted to know why there was time travel. I wanted more information about the Others. I wanted more Richard. Why was Walt important? Etc. The relationships were nice, but I didn't care about them. Heck, I didn't even like half the characters. If there hadn't been the mysteries of the show I would have dropped it halfway through the first season.

So the idea that "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters" is insulting.


Almost all of the mysteries on the show were explained.  However, some of them were explained outside the show (mini-sodes, ARG, the epilogue on the DVD sets, etc).  Also, some of the answers simply sucked.  How did the island time travel?  By mixing the light and water.  Yes, that's a farking terrible answer, but it is an answer.
 
2013-04-20 11:07:51 AM  
Would also include Red Dwarf on this list.  Started going off the rails when they lost the ship and the show was entirely set on the Starbug, and then completely derailed when Rimmer left and we got (fake) Kochanski as a replacement.  I stopped watching about 4 episodes into the season where they find the Dwarf with all crew (including Rimmer) reconstructed via nanobots.
 
2013-04-20 11:07:57 AM  

Gunther: PacificaFitz: Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?  How can you say they didn't have good charecters?

Very, very easily.

Their characters changed episode-to-episode depending on what the plot required of them. One episode Janeway would rather blow up her own ship and let a planet's worth of innocents die than violate the Prime Directive, the next week she'd be doing it for kicks.

That said, at least Kate Mulgrew was a decent actress. The semi-animated mannequin they got to play Chakotay was usually out-acted by the set dressing.


The woman had the voice of a muppet. I couldn't listen to her without laughing.
 
2013-04-20 11:08:13 AM  

Richard Sauce: RexTalionis: Enterprise was crappy for the first season (like every Star Trek series), but by the middle of the 2nd season, they were improving a lot. When they hit season 3 and they went into the overarching arch structure, they hit their stride.

Voyager's first episode was okay. It started to suck pretty quickly though and only improved enough to the point of watchability around maybe season 6.

Completely agree on Enterprise.

My main problem with Voyager was that each season had a handful of good episodes scattered among a lot of crap. I didn't feel like I could even rate one season as significantly better than another.


I think there's probably one solid season worth of episodes in Voyager, maybe even two.  They wouldn't all be great episodes, but it wouldn't be the crapfest of the show taken as a whole.
 
2013-04-20 11:15:52 AM  
PacificaFitz , this is the single best troll job on fark I've seen.

And it's even better if you're being serious.

10/10

Hint: When 99% of everyone else think a show sucked and you didn't, it means to look at you, not try to correct them.
 
2013-04-20 11:18:49 AM  

I. M. Foreman: Would also include Red Dwarf on this list.  Started going off the rails when they lost the ship and the show was entirely set on the Starbug, and then completely derailed when Rimmer left and we got (fake) Kochanski as a replacement.  I stopped watching about 4 episodes into the season where they find the Dwarf with all crew (including Rimmer) reconstructed via nanobots.


"Back to Earth" was tolerable.  It wasn't great, but it's worth a watch.  Series X was decent.  It wasn't as good as the early seasons of the show, but it was a hell of a lot better than the later seasons.

RockofAges: Just watched all of VOY, DS9, TNG, TOS, and ENT over the past year.

All good shows. I'm sure Neo here will obviously say DS9 was the best (the favourite for smart marks, to borrow a wrestling phrase). Personally, I thought DS9 was pretty damn good but that Sisko sadly had a tendency to overact FAR worse than Janeway could "underact".

I would personally say they are all very enjoyable shows with their own pros and cons. DS9 could be a bit too cerebral / political / mystical. I mean really, who cares about in-canon politics? The thematic and philosophical points raised by TNG were much more timeless. In-canon politics don't really provide any exterior satisfaction.

Voyager stands on its own quite well. Paris and Tuvok were actually quite good characters. Tuvok, in particular, is a very nuanced character when you actually sit down and watch it.


I agree with all of this.  I consider DS9 to be the strongest show as a whole.  TNG had much better and more memorable "great" episodes, but DS9 was overall more consistent than the other series.  Seasons 1 and 2 of TNG (aside from a few exceptions) are terrible.  The last season or two weren't great, either.  Voyager has it's moments, but it's bad episodes are on par with the worst of TOS.
 
2013-04-20 11:24:02 AM  

taxandspend: I was kind of expecting more current shows to be on there, like:

The Office after Michael Scott left.
Community starting with episode "History 101"
Glee after "Sectionals"
SVU after hottie Christopher Meloni left.

But then I read the list and realized it was nothing but Sci-Fi/Fantasy shows.


Dude...it's io9.
 
2013-04-20 11:34:12 AM  

taxandspend: The Office after Michael Scott left.


a lot of people like to cite Michael's departure from the show as when they show started to suck, but I thought the show, and michael especially, had been pretty terrible since Greg Daniels left after season 4. The last season wasn't that bad, though I think it's failure was mostly just due to bad writing. I would say the first half of the most recent season was much better than the past few seasons.

... though the latter half of the current season is rather crap.


taxandspend: Community starting with episode "History 101"


eh, I'll agree that this season has been pretty weak, but I don't think that was a particularly bad episode. I think the Inspector Spacetime episode was much more disappointing.
 
2013-04-20 11:35:23 AM  

Neeek: TFA: The show stumbled somewhat in its third season, with the boxing episode and a boring love triangle.

The boxing episode is widely regarded as one of the best episodes of the series, and probably TV in general.


Unfinished Business was one of my favorite episodes. I will agree though with how nonsensical it was to kill off/resurrect Starbuck...but the real turning point for me was the great "Final Five" reveal. The writers proved they had no plan with that clusterfrak of a storyline. :(

Still, BSG was a fantastic series overall.

/just pretend season 4.5 never happened
 
2013-04-20 11:44:08 AM  

namatad: 1) BSG - started sucking mid season two, most of 3, a lot of 4. Four, 10 episode season would have made for an AMAZING series. Four, 20 episode seasons = lots of filler episodes. ooooo black markets are bad, but we will always have them. lolol

2) heroes - came late to the party. Season 1, awesome. Season 2, ok at times. Couldnt finish the rest. WTF, happened with Sylar??? LOL

3) x-files - what are they talking about? there were more seasons after the movie came out? LIES

4) fringe - lol - I watched it. I still have no idea what they were doing.

5) blake's 7 - LOL - It was great/ok for a kids show. Would rather die than watch it again.

6) Lost - never watched it. people say I should ...

7) superman? ever? just say no. but the new movie looks good ...dammit

8) sliders

9) twin peaks - david lynch is a festering abortion

10) supernatural - crap, was this actually good? do I have to watch it now? dammit


I was just introduced to Supernatural a few months ago. Through Netflix Im totally caught up. I'm at a loss as for why a show thats so good is on the CW, and that I'd never really heard of it before. The Winchesters are baddass. The show doesn't really suck now, but man, seasons 2 through 5 were really good. But, as long as its on, I'll gladly hop in the Impala and see what kind of shait needs to be hunted every week.
 
2013-04-20 12:01:55 PM  
I love Supernatural. I think the show has Sagged in the last few years, but mainly because the new writers can't end a season well. Season Six's ending irkid the ever loving hell out of me. The metaplot of Six and Seven were great, until they crapped the bed. This season's metaplot is just boring to me, aside from the Naomi business.

I have other issues with Supernatural too, but overall I <3 the show.

Surprised Six Feet Under didnt' make the list.
 
2013-04-20 12:08:53 PM  

Lackofname: I love Supernatural. I think the show has Sagged in the last few years, but mainly because the new writers can't end a season well.


That and they're running out of creatures to fight. They went through pretty much everything in the Monster Manual, plus Lucifer. But it's the CW (is that what UPN is called this week?) so it'll be on another 10 years. Fine by me.

/met Bella (Maggie from The Walking Dead) at comicon a couple weeks back
//her natural British accent...rrrawrr
 
2013-04-20 12:12:16 PM  
As others have noted, BSG started to go bad before the end of season 2. It took some time building up to the boring mess it became, which makes me wonder if some people ever noticed. I just don't get how people defend that show's latter half unless they just let themselves be led into crap and couldn't tell the difference.

One thing BSG did was make me wary of TV series. I've never been one to watch much of them, but after that experience I vowed never to start another that wasn't completely wrapped up. I'm not going to get invested in another series only to have it turn stupid, leaving me with a sense of duty to finish it and see where it ends up. As good as that first season of BSG was, it wasn't worth sitting through most of the rest of it.
 
2013-04-20 12:14:27 PM  
Supernatural doesn't hit it out of the park every episode, but comparing the hits to the misses, hits win out big time.

The only complaint I have about it is how dark it is.  Not the writing or plot lines, but how it seems like 90% of the time the show is shot in almost pitch black.  It's extremely hard to figure out what is going on when it's differentiating between different shades of grey.
 
2013-04-20 12:18:16 PM  

NeoCortex42: The difference between the two was that BSG was trying to be a highly-serialized show, but made no effort at all to plan ahead.  Like the article said, the writers killed and resurrected Starbuck simply because the thought it would be cool.  They had no idea at the time how they were going to explain it.  The Opera House is another example of them coming up with a cool scene with no expected payoff for it.


And that lack of planning led to one of the worst finales of all time.  They had to go with the super lazy "God did it" ending because there was nothing interesting that could be assembled out of the pieces they had haphazardly thrown together.
 
2013-04-20 12:21:20 PM  

I. M. Foreman: Would also include Red Dwarf on this list.  Started going off the rails when they lost the ship and the show was entirely set on the Starbug, and then completely derailed when Rimmer left and we got (fake) Kochanski as a replacement.  I stopped watching about 4 episodes into the season where they find the Dwarf with all crew (including Rimmer) reconstructed via nanobots.


Cat going around spraying things. "mine. that's mine. mine. mine."

The skutters begging to not be left alone with Rimmer.
 
2013-04-20 12:21:39 PM  
BSG sucked from conception when they made the idea that Gregor Mendel was an idiot the foundation of it all. Most well-acted, best-written completely stupid bullshiat to have ever soiled the airwaves.
 
2013-04-20 12:23:50 PM  
This smells like  The English Major's work. Voyager and Enterprise were both excellent* shows.

*eventually sometimes
 
2013-04-20 12:24:07 PM  

swahnhennessy: As others have noted, BSG started to go bad before the end of season 2. It took some time building up to the boring mess it became, which makes me wonder if some people ever noticed. I just don't get how people defend that show's latter half unless they just let themselves be led into crap and couldn't tell the difference.

One thing BSG did was make me wary of TV series. I've never been one to watch much of them, but after that experience I vowed never to start another that wasn't completely wrapped up. I'm not going to get invested in another series only to have it turn stupid, leaving me with a sense of duty to finish it and see where it ends up. As good as that first season of BSG was, it wasn't worth sitting through most of the rest of it.


dont get me started on the number of good SF series which were canceled once they got going. (looking at you fox)
 
2013-04-20 12:30:03 PM  

Fish in a Barrel: NeoCortex42: The difference between the two was that BSG was trying to be a highly-serialized show, but made no effort at all to plan ahead.  Like the article said, the writers killed and resurrected Starbuck simply because the thought it would be cool.  They had no idea at the time how they were going to explain it.  The Opera House is another example of them coming up with a cool scene with no expected payoff for it.

And that lack of planning led to one of the worst finales of all time.  They had to go with the super lazy "God did it" ending because there was nothing interesting coherent that could be assembled out of the pieces they had haphazardly thrown together.


By that time there wasn't anything they could do but go "God did it!" at that point. Granted they had somewhat been leading up to "God did it." by having Head Six try to say she was actually an angel of sorts, and resurrecting Starbuck with the miracle Viper containing special data. After some thought on the subject I always thought it would have been a better idea for the writers to have the final five leave clues to the new Earth the same way they did with the old Earth. Have it be a planet they went in search of and discovered before heading to the 12 colonies. Have it be a planet they originally wanted the Cylons to move to in peace so they could advance the Cylon race. Have Head Six and Head Baltar really be delusions of a slowly fracturing mind.
 
2013-04-20 12:32:53 PM  

angrymacface: This smells like  The English Major's work. Voyager and Enterprise were both excellent* shows.

*eventually sometimes




Enterprise sucked when they decided to incorporate 9/11 into the story line and re-write Federation history.
 
2013-04-20 12:39:30 PM  

PacificaFitz: Tom Paris? Harry Kim? Captain Janeway? Tuvak? Chikote? Belana? How can you say they didn't have good charecters? Janeway was brilliant. Some of the best ST stories came out of this show! The Borg might have started with TNG but it was perfected with Voyager.

The problem people have with Voyager is that it wasn't on the bridge of the Enterprise. It was a different story all together.


www.gunnuts.net
 
2013-04-20 12:46:59 PM  

LDM90: Gunther: PacificaFitz: Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?  How can you say they didn't have good charecters?

Very, very easily.

Their characters changed episode-to-episode depending on what the plot required of them. One episode Janeway would rather blow up her own ship and let a planet's worth of innocents die than violate the Prime Directive, the next week she'd be doing it for kicks.

That said, at least Kate Mulgrew was a decent actress. The semi-animated mannequin they got to play Chakotay was usually out-acted by the set dressing.

The woman had the voice of a muppet. I couldn't listen to her without laughing.


Her voice was nails on a chalkboard. It reminded me of the voice Catherine Anne O'Hara did on SCTV when she was pretending to be an old woman... or an older Fran Drescher.

Enterprise essentially killed Star Trek on television... but Voyager was awful as well.
 
2013-04-20 12:51:56 PM  

HempHead: angrymacface: This smells like  The English Major's work. Voyager and Enterprise were both excellent* shows.

*eventually sometimes

Enterprise sucked when they decided to incorporate 9/11 into the story line and re-write Federation history.


I always hoped that Enterprise would do something truly radical, and actually turn into the evil Mirror Mirror universe. It would have made the countless "Will the Federation survive this latest threat?" episodes much more exciting when suddenly, no, it doesn't survive! All hell breaks loose, and we are left with something never before expected in a Trek show.
 
2013-04-20 01:00:19 PM  

I. M. Foreman: Would also include Red Dwarf on this list.  Started going off the rails when they lost the ship and the show was entirely set on the Starbug, and then completely derailed when Rimmer left and we got (fake) Kochanski as a replacement.  I stopped watching about 4 episodes into the season where they find the Dwarf with all crew (including Rimmer) reconstructed via nanobots.


Kochanski was painful. The actress they got for her had no comic abilities whatsoever. The Rimmer/Lister dynamic was what drove the show. They should probably have just ended it after Season 5.
 
2013-04-20 01:09:20 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Oh, i09, John Rhys-Davies didn't quit Sliders... he was fired by a Fox executive he once managed pissed off.

Also, they  forgot to mention why the show went off the rails and became Kromagg of the week... Fox brought in a hack producer to do their bidding, and Hack producer stayed with the show from seasons 3-5 making sure to kill all good ideas and replace them with movie of the week worlds and such.

/and replacing the Professor with Hootie McBoob, and choosing Hootie over Wade.


and retconning Quinn's backstory to being from another Earth and having a brother (which was apparently originally supposed to be an elaborate Kromagg deception, but got nixed by said Hack producer) and then merging Quinn with a fraternal double and making previously mentioned brother (that was originally supposed to be some sort of Kromagg clone of Quinn with some alterations, but as I mentioned before that idea got nixed by the Hack producer) unstuck in space-time, and seriously being able to change the universe you happen to be in during the second episode of Season 5?  That's just bullshiat.

Seasons 1 and 2 are good.  "Double Cross" and "The Guardian" in Season 3 are good as well as"Season's Greedings" (with the exception of Rembrandt getting brainwashed to buy stuff through sublminal advertising) as we get some character development of Wade.  There were a few good or good in concept episodes of Season 4.  I think Just Say Yes would have worked better with Quinn and Wade getting drugged up and the Professor and Rembrandt trying to save them, and the Professor should have been the anti-drug hippie and Pavel the cab driver.

/ Forcing my way through Season 5 on Amazon Instant Video so I can be disappointed in the "ending."
 
2013-04-20 01:11:32 PM  

Dumb-Ass-Monkey: I always hoped that Enterprise would do something truly radical, and actually turn into the evil Mirror Mirror universe. It would have made the countless "Will the Federation survive this latest threat?" episodes much more exciting when suddenly, no, it doesn't survive! All hell breaks loose, and we are left with something never before expected in a Trek show.


They were too worried about canon and rabid fans.
Breaking everything would have created possibilities, rather than locking in obvious conclusions.
Kind of like star wars 1-3. We already KNEW everything that would happen. We just didnt know that it was all JARJAR's fault.
 
2013-04-20 01:13:54 PM  
Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.
 
2013-04-20 01:17:33 PM  

PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now


THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.
 
2013-04-20 01:19:47 PM  

NeoCortex42: Techhell: FTA: 6) Lost
This show was always about the relationships, more than about the plot mechanics or big mysteries. My theory is always that when people say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost," they really mean, "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters, where all of this wound up meaning something to them."

Yeah, this is where I went from "I can see that." to "This is utter bullshiate." When I say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost." I mean "I DIDN'T GET ENOUGH ANSWERS FROM LOST." I didn't tune in to see who Kate was farking this week, or whether Sawyer and Juliette were going to make it as a couple, or if Hurley was going to find love. I tuned into find out more about the Dharma project. I wanted to know why there was time travel. I wanted more information about the Others. I wanted more Richard. Why was Walt important? Etc. The relationships were nice, but I didn't care about them. Heck, I didn't even like half the characters. If there hadn't been the mysteries of the show I would have dropped it halfway through the first season.

So the idea that "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters" is insulting.

Almost all of the mysteries on the show were explained.  However, some of them were explained outside the show (mini-sodes, ARG, the epilogue on the DVD sets, etc).  Also, some of the answers simply sucked.  How did the island time travel?  By mixing the light and water.  Yes, that's a farking terrible answer, but it is an answer.


These should have been answered ON THE SHOW. When you introduce major plot points which literally drive the show for seasons at a time - Walt, Dharma, Time Travel, the Others - the main explanation needs to be in the same medium as the introduction. Do I want to know why there are polar bears on the island? Mini-sodes, ARG, DVD extras, a Wiki, etc., are fine. Do I want to know why the Others were so interested in Walt? That was a main thrust of the end of Season 1 and much of Season 2, so it should have been answered on the show itself. Do I want to know why all those reports were simply put into the tube and sent off to pile up in an abandoned part of the Island? Off-show sources are fine. Why was Dharma on the island, how were they able to come and go, why are there still food drops from Dharma years after the Purge? These needed to be answered on the show itself. Why was it so important that Aaron was raised by Claire and no one else? Show; it was probably the only mystery that involved Claire.

There's so much more I could go on about, but I'll just sum up with restating how insulting it is when people claim that the only thing that people cared about was the relationships, like this author did. It wasn't the character relationships that hard core fans spent years of their lives (I think almost literally in some cases; there were some seriously messed up hard core fans of Lost when it was on.) analyzing. It was the mysteries that were introduced, and the mysteries that WEREN'T introduced. "Why did Locke read that book?" "Why was that song playing?" "Why did Desmond pause like that?" "How come Jack didn't remember that incident?" were analyzed and over analyzed to the point of insanity. But it was almost never asked "Why did Kate smile at Jack like she did, with Sawyer right there next to him?"

/"It was always about the relationships." was just Darltons way of passing the buck of poor planning back onto the fans; it wasn't their fault they wrote themselves into a corner, it was the audiences fault for not realizing that the important part of the show was how much the characters needed each other, and how much everyone needed Jack!
 
2013-04-20 01:19:57 PM  

Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.


It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.
 
2013-04-20 01:24:16 PM  

47 is the new 42: Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.

It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.


Like everything on the show, that conflict was shelved in favor of bland, easy to resolve single episode pablum. Characters vehemently disagree with one another, only to have forgotten it completely by the next episode. Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.
 
2013-04-20 01:31:05 PM  

47 is the new 42: t also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early


I was just about to say that. There was the occasional traitor and Belanna was a biatch but for the most part by the second episode they were one happy family. And no, there were no consequences. Half the ship could be blown apart and by the next episode everything was back to normal. I realize with replicators or whatever that repair procedures might be easier but still.

And the finale sucked. "Hey, there's Earth!" Credits.
 
2013-04-20 01:33:02 PM  

Techhell: These should have been answered ON THE SHOW. When you introduce major plot points which literally drive the show for seasons at a time - Walt, Dharma, Time Travel, the Others - the main explanation needs to be in the same medium as the introduction. Do I want to know why there are polar bears on the island? Mini-sodes, ARG, DVD extras, a Wiki, etc., are fine. Do I want to know why the Others were so interested in Walt? That was a main thrust of the end of Season 1 and much of Season 2, so it should have been answered on the show itself. Do I want to know why all those reports were simply put into the tube and sent off to pile up in an abandoned part of the Island? Off-show sources are fine. Why was Dharma on the island, how were they able to come and go, why are there still food drops from Dharma years after the Purge? These needed to be answered on the show itself. Why was it so important that Aaron was raised by Claire and no one else? Show; it was probably the only mystery that involved Claire.


The Others were interested in Walt because he was "special".  While they were examining him, they found he was more than they could handle and let him go with Michael.  That was answered in the show.

Dharma was on the Island in order to investigate a bunch of weird shiat.  Some of it dealing directly with the Island, like magnetism, and also just generic renegade science group experiments.  They were able to come and go by using the Lighthouse Station on the mainland to pinpoint where the Island would be, as well as knowing the proper heading to approach and leave the Island successfully.  These were answered on the show.

Why did Aaron have to be raised by Claire?  He didn't.  The "psychic" admitted he was a fraud.  This was answered on the show.
 
2013-04-20 01:36:37 PM  

RockofAges: Just watched all of VOY, DS9, TNG, TOS, and ENT over the past year.

All good shows. I'm sure Neo here will obviously say DS9 was the best (the favourite for smart marks, to borrow a wrestling phrase). Personally, I thought DS9 was pretty damn good but that Sisko sadly had a tendency to overact FAR worse than Janeway could "underact".

I would personally say they are all very enjoyable shows with their own pros and cons. DS9 could be a bit too cerebral / political / mystical. I mean really, who cares about in-canon politics? The thematic and philosophical points raised by TNG were much more timeless. In-canon politics don't really provide any exterior satisfaction.

Voyager stands on its own quite well. Paris and Tuvok were actually quite good characters. Tuvok, in particular, is a very nuanced character when you actually sit down and watch it.


I'd go the opposite direction with DS9. The "politics" we're a big part of what made it good. You can't just phaser the alien supercomputer, pontificate a bit on humanistic values, and fly off to a new planet; when something happens on DS9, there are consequences. It's fine to use the Prophets to question the nature of faith and the relationship between religion and reason (for comparison, I'm thinking about the stupid TNG episode in which Picard lectures "god" on morality, then flies away to a new planet), but you have to deal with the day after that, when Bajoran clergy start arguing over what all that means and how it impacts everyday life. TOS dealt with genetic engineering by dumping Khan on Ceti Alpha V and flying away. DS9 asked what we should do when people get back-alley upgrades anyway.
 
2013-04-20 01:41:30 PM  

chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.


LOL
watched the first couple, three season.
gave up when YET again their miracle plans to get home were thwarted YET AGAIN.
YAWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

There is no surprise or interest if you always know how an episode will end.
 
2013-04-20 01:42:43 PM  

Son of Thunder: I'd go the opposite direction with DS9. The "politics" we're a big part of what made it good. You can't just phaser the alien supercomputer, pontificate a bit on humanistic values, and fly off to a new planet


Yeah and "commenting on the human condition through sci-fi" has been done to death. It's all pretty much been covered. And it's usually pretty ham-fisted. "So this guy who is black on one side and white on the other hates the guy who is white on one side and black on the other. It's about racism! Get it?".

And I like that DS9 was one big story. The suits probably didn't like that because it makes it harder for new viewers to come in at the middle but with shows like Breaking Bad and The Walking Dead that's starting to become a trend, maybe.
 
2013-04-20 01:46:05 PM  

namatad: swahnhennessy: As others have noted, BSG started to go bad before the end of season 2. It took some time building up to the boring mess it became, which makes me wonder if some people ever noticed. I just don't get how people defend that show's latter half unless they just let themselves be led into crap and couldn't tell the difference. One thing BSG did was make me wary of TV series. I've never been one to watch much of them, but after that experience I vowed never to start another that wasn't completely wrapped up. I'm not going to get invested in another series only to have it turn stupid, leaving me with a sense of duty to finish it and see where it ends up. As good as that first season of BSG was, it wasn't worth sitting through most of the rest of it. dont get me started on the number of good SF series which were canceled once they got going. (looking at you fox)


I know exactly what you're talking about.

www.nerdcenaries.com
 
2013-04-20 01:50:05 PM  
io9: Telling you what to hate since 2007.
 
2013-04-20 01:50:36 PM  

HempHead: namatad: swahnhennessy: As others have noted, BSG started to go bad before the end of season 2. It took some time building up to the boring mess it became, which makes me wonder if some people ever noticed. I just don't get how people defend that show's latter half unless they just let themselves be led into crap and couldn't tell the difference. One thing BSG did was make me wary of TV series. I've never been one to watch much of them, but after that experience I vowed never to start another that wasn't completely wrapped up. I'm not going to get invested in another series only to have it turn stupid, leaving me with a sense of duty to finish it and see where it ends up. As good as that first season of BSG was, it wasn't worth sitting through most of the rest of it. dont get me started on the number of good SF series which were canceled once they got going. (looking at you fox)

I know exactly what you're talking about.

[www.nerdcenaries.com image 400x565]


I did appreciate Fringe with the Mantis shout-out.  Apparently, in the alternate universe, Mantis replaced Batman in popular lore.
 
2013-04-20 01:56:16 PM  

Techhell: NeoCortex42: Techhell: FTA: 6) Lost
This show was always about the relationships, more than about the plot mechanics or big mysteries. My theory is always that when people say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost," they really mean, "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters, where all of this wound up meaning something to them."

Yeah, this is where I went from "I can see that." to "This is utter bullshiate." When I say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost." I mean "I DIDN'T GET ENOUGH ANSWERS FROM LOST." I didn't tune in to see who Kate was farking this week, or whether Sawyer and Juliette were going to make it as a couple, or if Hurley was going to find love. I tuned into find out more about the Dharma project. I wanted to know why there was time travel. I wanted more information about the Others. I wanted more Richard. Why was Walt important? Etc. The relationships were nice, but I didn't care about them. Heck, I didn't even like half the characters. If there hadn't been the mysteries of the show I would have dropped it halfway through the first season.

So the idea that "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters" is insulting.

Almost all of the mysteries on the show were explained.  However, some of them were explained outside the show (mini-sodes, ARG, the epilogue on the DVD sets, etc).  Also, some of the answers simply sucked.  How did the island time travel?  By mixing the light and water.  Yes, that's a farking terrible answer, but it is an answer.

These should have been answered ON THE SHOW. When you introduce major plot points which literally drive the show for seasons at a time - Walt, Dharma, Time Travel, the Others - the main explanation needs to be in the same medium as the introduction. Do I want to know why there are polar bears on the island? Mini-sodes, ARG, DVD extras, a Wiki, etc., are fine. Do I want to know why the Others were so interested in Walt? That was a main thrust of the end of Season 1 and much of Season 2, so ...




It made a lot more sense to me when I read about the guy suing because he claimed JJ Abrams had stolen his treatise for the carry on series of Kroft childrens series "Land of the Lost".
 
2013-04-20 01:58:31 PM  

Hebalo: Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.


Watching Vir, Londo and J'Kar develop over time.
J'Kar's epiphany, that his race might have to perish by doing what is right and that being the only rational choice.

damn
might be time to rewatch the first 4 seasons
 
2013-04-20 01:59:08 PM  

HempHead: namatad: swahnhennessy: As others have noted, BSG started to go bad before the end of season 2. It took some time building up to the boring mess it became, which makes me wonder if some people ever noticed. I just don't get how people defend that show's latter half unless they just let themselves be led into crap and couldn't tell the difference. One thing BSG did was make me wary of TV series. I've never been one to watch much of them, but after that experience I vowed never to start another that wasn't completely wrapped up. I'm not going to get invested in another series only to have it turn stupid, leaving me with a sense of duty to finish it and see where it ends up. As good as that first season of BSG was, it wasn't worth sitting through most of the rest of it. dont get me started on the number of good SF series which were canceled once they got going. (looking at you fox)

I know exactly what you're talking about.

[www.nerdcenaries.com image 400x565]




See also: Space Above and Beyond
 
2013-04-20 02:05:23 PM  

Hebalo: 47 is the new 42: Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.

It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.

Like everything on the show, that conflict was shelved in favor of bland, easy to resolve single episode pablum. Characters vehemently disagree with one another, only to have forgotten it completely by the next episode. Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.


Babylon 5 was good overall show with a few bad things:  The fourth season wrapped stuff up too quickly, and the fifth season just sucked.  However, I do understand that a good portion of why was they weren't sure if there was going to be a fifth season, so they needed to wrap up the major stuff (Shadow War, Earth Civil War) in Season 4, and then they end up getting a Season 5.  They probably could have done a lot better with Season 5 even considering this.

Mugato: 47 is the new 42: t also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early

I was just about to say that. There was the occasional traitor and Belanna was a biatch but for the most part by the second episode they were one happy family. And no, there were no consequences. Half the ship could be blown apart and by the next episode everything was back to normal. I realize with replicators or whatever that repair procedures might be easier but still.

And the finale sucked. "Hey, there's Earth!" Credits.


Yes, it did.  I forgot to mention that.
 
2013-04-20 02:11:10 PM  
How about "Mork and Mindy", when the producers made the disastrous mistake of removing the character of Mindy's dad, resulting in a ratings slide that led to its demise?
 
2013-04-20 02:27:06 PM  

47 is the new 42: Babylon 5 was good overall show with a few bad things:  The fourth season wrapped stuff up too quickly, and the fifth season just sucked.  However, I do understand that a good portion of why was they weren't sure if there was going to be a fifth season, so they needed to wrap up the major stuff (Shadow War, Earth Civil War) in Season 4, and then they end up getting a Season 5.  They probably could have done a lot better with Season 5 even considering this.


"This plan was nearly shelved when it appeared Babylon 5 was going to be canceled after the fourth season. J Michael Straczynski pushed forward much of the material he had planned for the fifth season into the fourth, and even filmed the planned series finale for that year. When word came that the fifth season had been granted after all, the series finale was held back and used in its proper place. "

"(The fourth and fifth seasons had to be telescoped into one when the show was going to be prematurely ended. Then it was Un-Cancelled and picked up by TNT, and they had to scramble to create a fifth season, which was not as well-liked by most fans.) "

From a production point of view, they moved ahead with season 4, assuming that there would be no season 5. Period.
In the end, we were EXCITED to see that they were able to wrap everything up in Season 4. 
And then we got the abortion which was Season 5.

I have only rewatched season 5 once since it originally aired. Really not worth the time.
 
2013-04-20 02:35:28 PM  

buckler: How about "Mork and Mindy", when the producers made the disastrous mistake of removing the character of Mindy's dad, resulting in a ratings slide that led to its demise?




Moving the show from Thursday nights to Sunday nights killed the show.
 
2013-04-20 02:40:02 PM  

namatad: 47 is the new 42: Babylon 5 was good overall show with a few bad things:  The fourth season wrapped stuff up too quickly, and the fifth season just sucked.  However, I do understand that a good portion of why was they weren't sure if there was going to be a fifth season, so they needed to wrap up the major stuff (Shadow War, Earth Civil War) in Season 4, and then they end up getting a Season 5.  They probably could have done a lot better with Season 5 even considering this.

"This plan was nearly shelved when it appeared Babylon 5 was going to be canceled after the fourth season. J Michael Straczynski pushed forward much of the material he had planned for the fifth season into the fourth, and even filmed the planned series finale for that year. When word came that the fifth season had been granted after all, the series finale was held back and used in its proper place. "

"(The fourth and fifth seasons had to be telescoped into one when the show was going to be prematurely ended. Then it was Un-Cancelled and picked up by TNT, and they had to scramble to create a fifth season, which was not as well-liked by most fans.) "

From a production point of view, they moved ahead with season 4, assuming that there would be no season 5. Period.
In the end, we were EXCITED to see that they were able to wrap everything up in Season 4. 
And then we got the abortion which was Season 5.

I have only rewatched season 5 once since it originally aired. Really not worth the time.


Seems like all you did was expand on why, which I actually already knew a lot about.  Is it sad that I think the best Season 5 episode is the one with the two maintence guys?
 
2013-04-20 02:48:27 PM  

SpdrJay: Anyone who didn't like the new Battlestar Galactica is a Chechen terrorist.


For a while, I was afraid that the only thing I liked about BSG was Tricia Helfer running around nekkid, so I finished season 1 and went back to rewatch it, skipping over her scenes.

It was still a damn good show.
 
2013-04-20 02:50:45 PM  
If only Voyager and BSG could've mind-melded or something, more story arcs and less planet of the week for Voyager, more direct conflict/interaction with the Cylons for BSG.

I'm not religious so much of that aspect was lost on me for BSG, but the political aspects were pretty intriguing and well done.  As others have said, the series felt like it had a specific, few seasons direction at one point, then lost it, then picked it up again and had to hurry to finish it.  But what some would call the B.S. episodes are indeed some of the better ones, the story is about the Galactica, not the fleet, but the Galactica's purpose IS the fleet, so there had to be some episodes about that.

Voyager suffered the opposite fate, they left everything open ended with minor arcs and B.S. episodes rather than evolving or ending as much as they could have.  The ship always getting so heavily damaged should have been the major arc itself, ending up with the nacelles and bridge section being the last remnants of a ship that had to cobble together formerly unknown alien tech to keep going on.  Rather than Neelix, the patron native should've been an engineer that was an amateur jack-of-all-trades in alien tech, not food.  Also, to cement it was Star Trek: Voyager, Janeway should've died, and Chakotay should've remained as 2nd in command.  For me, debate is up for who would have been best to take command, but it is not Chakotay.

/Lost had different problems
 
2013-04-20 02:53:19 PM  

bikkurikun: A pretty sound list, I am only missing Eureka; they did the same stupid thing as Fringe, I couldn't get myself interested after they moved to an alternate future.

Don't agree with Supernatural though; it's still fun, although probably it would be a good idea to stop now.

And I am tired of Doctor Who as well; time to let him rest again for a decade or so.


If Doctor Who fails again, it'll probably be because of Stephen Moffatt. These huge, twisted plot tumors he injected into the sixth season had me just kind of hanging on and hoping for the best; every episode introduced some overweening new concept that would have a huge impact on everything for the rest of the season, and even then didn't make much sense. There were only two episodes that didn't require every other episode in the series to make sense, and neither one was very good, as if Moffatt just didn't particularly give a damn about them. The whole thing screamed "vanity project."

It's not a bad thing to have a story arc, or even several story arcs running parallel, but if your viewers don't click with one of those arcs, you're stuck with it for the duration, and it'll just hurt you. (I shudder at the vast quantity of materials trying to force us to like the "gangers." They have action figures of those goddamn things. You know, because science fiction TV just doesn't have enough mistaken-identity duplicate stories.) What started out as the Secret Word ("Bad Wolf") that ran through the whole series, a mystery only discovered late in the game, and solved in the final episode, has become the central plot device upon which all other facets of the series lean, a cheap gimmick to keep idiots like me glued to the set for thirteen weeks.

Moffatt HAS walked this back a bit for Series Seven - maybe he got slapped by a critic or something, I don't know. But the series' dependence on internet buzz for ratings is biting its ass in a big way.
 
2013-04-20 03:14:19 PM  

chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.


I watched Voyager from the first episode to the last. Voyager is the Episode 1 of all the Star Trek series. It had so much potential to be great, but instead it became an embarassment. Especially when you compared it to Babylon 5, a series that managed to do a lot more with a lot less.

The reason I did watch the show is that I was a huge Star Trek fan, and every once in a while they would make a great episode, and I would hold out hope that this was a sign of Voyager turning a corner and becoming a quality program. And then it would go back to business as usual, and right when I was about to write it off, they gave us another good episode.

Another reason I watched was so I could have informed complaints about the show. It's no fun bashing a show sight unseen. I need to know what I'm bashing and I need to know how specificaly the show is disappointing me. Then I need to take to the internet and share my complaints with other like-minded complainers. Sometimes the best part about watching Voyager was going online and reading online critics completely savage that particular episode. (If i ever want to time warp back to the 90's, I simply go here.)

After Voyager ended, I then spent 10 years watching Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark, often so hilariously that it was worth watching. (And why I loved the website Television Without Pity.) It again became a guilty pleasure, especially in the last few seasons, and I never missed an episode because it would occasionally be great, and I had high hopes that it would at least end well. It didn't. (If you want to know a show that had a worse final episode than Lost and BSG, it's Smallville.)

Of course, I began watching Arrow for the same reasons, hoping it would be a guilty pleasure like Smallville and Voyager, and wouldn't you know it that show is actually good.
 
2013-04-20 03:20:28 PM  
Let's address that elephant in the room. The real reason why "Enterprise" wasn't so popular is because "Star Trek" over saturation. With in a decade we had four "Star Trek" series and when "Enterprise" went into being, people said enough is enough and stopped watching anything "Star Trek". Oh yeah "Voyager" was a big giant suck fest. And it's not because it wasn't on the bridge on the Enterprise. Lost interest in that series half way into the first season. Thought having a Borg queen was bad but "Voyager" had to go full retard and introduce to us Borg children. I only saw one episode with them and I think that was on the last season.

1) Battlestar Galactia: Only saw a few episodes. Too depressing IMHO

2) Heroes: Agree second season was a big disappointment.

3) X-Files: Wasn't all that interested but loved the alien conspiracy part.

4) Fringe: Couldn't get past the first half of the season.

5) Blake's 7: Never saw it.

6) Lost: Never got into it after the first season.

7) Lois and Clark: Loved it wish that they made more

8) Sliders: Started to suck when they introduced the Kromaggs and went full retard on season five.

9) Twin peaks: Never saw it

10) Supernatural: Never saw it
 
2013-04-20 03:20:55 PM  

soporific: Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark


I only watched a handful of episodes but at least they did what 5 movies and two really good actors couldn't do, make Lex Luthor not look like an idiot. So it has that going for it.
 
2013-04-20 03:25:31 PM  

47 is the new 42: Seems like all you did was expand on why, which I actually already knew a lot about. Is it sad that I think the best Season 5 episode is the one with the two maintence guys?


Due to the cancellation fears, the best final episode of any series I can think of, was in Babylon 5 season 4, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars."  If they could've just ended the series with that episode, (and had it not already been seen), season 5 would be remembered much better.  Should anyone ever recommend the series to a friend (it holds up well) tell them to watch that episode last or second to last.
 
2013-04-20 03:25:48 PM  

Mugato: soporific: Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark

I only watched a handful of episodes but at least they did what 5 movies and two really good actors couldn't do, make Lex Luthor not look like an idiot. So it has that going for it.


If you want a good movie Luthor, watch the DC animated movies, particularly Superman:Doomsday and All Star Superman. If Superman Returns had those Luthors, it would have been so much better.
 
2013-04-20 03:32:45 PM  

angrymacface: This smells like  The English Major's work. Voyager and Enterprise were both excellent* shows.

*eventually sometimes


No, it wasn't.
And no, they weren't.
 
2013-04-20 03:35:17 PM  
I have never watched five seconds of any of those shows.   * walks away all cool and hip like *
 
2013-04-20 03:42:10 PM  

The English Major: angrymacface: This smells like  The English Major's work. Voyager and Enterprise were both excellent* shows.

*eventually sometimes

No, it wasn't.
And no, they weren't.


YOU TAKE THAT BACK!
 
2013-04-20 03:48:24 PM  
And someone should say something for Lois and Clark so here goes:  I watched it during bored hours three years ago when it was free on wb.com.  I didn't watch it when I was a teenager and it was new, but I remembered it being popular so I gave it a chance.  It's definitely geared towards a couple's audience, something like: "Enough romance for her but enough Superman for a man,"  context being within the mid 1990's.  I didn't see it when it was debuting and season 4 wasn't available, but I could see why it was appealing and was doomed once they got married.
 
2013-04-20 03:53:46 PM  

peasandcarrots: bikkurikun: A pretty sound list, I am only missing Eureka; they did the same stupid thing as Fringe, I couldn't get myself interested after they moved to an alternate future.

Don't agree with Supernatural though; it's still fun, although probably it would be a good idea to stop now.

And I am tired of Doctor Who as well; time to let him rest again for a decade or so.

If Doctor Who fails again, it'll probably be because of Stephen Moffatt. These huge, twisted plot tumors he injected into the sixth season had me just kind of hanging on and hoping for the best; every episode introduced some overweening new concept that would have a huge impact on everything for the rest of the season, and even then didn't make much sense. There were only two episodes that didn't require every other episode in the series to make sense, and neither one was very good, as if Moffatt just didn't particularly give a damn about them. The whole thing screamed "vanity project."

It's not a bad thing to have a story arc, or even several story arcs running parallel, but if your viewers don't click with one of those arcs, you're stuck with it for the duration, and it'll just hurt you. (I shudder at the vast quantity of materials trying to force us to like the "gangers." They have action figures of those goddamn things. You know, because science fiction TV just doesn't have enough mistaken-identity duplicate stories.) What started out as the Secret Word ("Bad Wolf") that ran through the whole series, a mystery only discovered late in the game, and solved in the final episode, has become the central plot device upon which all other facets of the series lean, a cheap gimmick to keep idiots like me glued to the set for thirteen weeks.

Moffatt HAS walked this back a bit for Series Seven - maybe he got slapped by a critic or something, I don't know. But the series' dependence on internet buzz for ratings is biting its ass in a big way.


We'll have to disagree. I think the Moffatt years have overall been superior to the RTD period. Even the worst Moffatt episodes have simply been dull, and nothing has approached the deepest depths of suck that RTD did (Fear Her, the end of Love and Monsters, Yoda Doctor and Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor from Last of the Time Lords). The writing has been better overall, the show looks so much better from a production value, and I just like Matt Smith better as the Doctor. The show is even more popular than ever, too. I just don't see the same issues the Moffatt critics have with the show. I've been watching the show since the 80s and I personally think it has been the best it has since the Tom Baker years.

Also, some of the best parts of the classic series were when there was an overarching plot, like the Key to Time season, the Doctor/Master rivalry in Pertwee's second season, and the return of the Master story arc that ran from the end of the 4th Doctor to the beginning of the 5th, and the Cartmel Masterplan episodes towards the end of the show.
 
2013-04-20 03:56:29 PM  
That said, I do think that two full Gangers episodes was not a great idea. It should have been a single episode. Again, not terrible, just dull.
 
2013-04-20 04:04:24 PM  

soporific: Mugato: soporific: Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark

I only watched a handful of episodes but at least they did what 5 movies and two really good actors couldn't do, make Lex Luthor not look like an idiot. So it has that going for it.

If you want a good movie Luthor, watch the DC animated movies, particularly Superman:Doomsday and All Star Superman. If Superman Returns had those Luthors, it would have been so much better.


Screw that noise. You want Luthor, you watch Justice League Unlimited.
 
2013-04-20 04:18:21 PM  

Carousel Beast: PacificaFitz , this is the single best troll job on fark I've seen.

And it's even better if you're being serious.

10/10

Hint: When 99% of everyone else think a show sucked and you didn't, it means to look at you, not try to correct them.


LOL, I wasn't trying to troll, Voyager was my favorite Star Trek.
 
2013-04-20 04:18:23 PM  
Supernatural season 7 was a big Dick joke (literally) but season 8 has been very redeeming. It's one of my favorite shows on TV right now.
 
2013-04-20 04:26:42 PM  
The X-Files: First Person Shooter.

Not just a bad X-Files episode, but bad TV in general. Usually when sci-fi sucks a character into the computer world, they use a mainframe... not a pre-power PC Mac with a whopping 64 MB RAM and around 150 MB hard drive. That computer was also used to drive a huge, completely realistic holodeck in that episode.

So goddamn bad. They just slowly slid downhill from then on.
 
2013-04-20 04:27:27 PM  

Freschel: Let's address that elephant in the room. The real reason why "Enterprise" wasn't so popular is because "Star Trek" over saturation. With in a decade we had four "Star Trek" series and when "Enterprise" went into being, people said enough is enough and stopped watching anything "Star Trek". Oh yeah "Voyager" was a big giant suck fest. And it's not because it wasn't on the bridge on the Enterprise. Lost interest in that series half way into the first season. Thought having a Borg queen was bad but "Voyager" had to go full retard and introduce to us Borg children. I only saw one episode with them and I think that was on the last season.


I kind of agree (you forgot to factor in the movies as well), but I think the bigger factor for Enterprise failing was a subpar previous series (Voyager) and a string of subpar movies.
 
2013-04-20 04:36:52 PM  

skinink: "If both Peter and Sylar had stayed dead after the end of season one, there could have been a clean slate and a chance to start over. "
I think both characters killed momentum once they became virtually indestructible/powerful in the first season. And yes Syler should have stayed dead, plus the battle between Peter and Syler was written poorly.

Plus the writers kept painting the storylines into a corner. I hated the multiple versions of a dead Ali Larter character. Just kill her off already.


The original intent was to start each season with a whole new cast (like they do now with Power Rangers), but then the usual Executive Meddling happened, and then we got:

1) Sylar shifting from good to bad every other episode.

2) The limits of Peter's powers changing from every hour - "I can use everyone's powers....no wait, I can only use them one at a time...nope, I can only use my powers after eating a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos in under 5 minutes while doing the Macarena"

3) Characters disappearing and never being mentioned again, like the Irish chick Peter left in another timeline, or the girl that could imitate any skill see watched

4) Everyone else making some of the stupidest decisions ever, especially Hiro. The guy had the power to rewind time, and instead of using it go back and warm everyone about Sylar, or the virus, or anything else bad, he wastes his time trying to bang some waitress with perfect eidectic memory. WTF? You can go bang her AFTER you've stopped Sylar from eating her brains, you dumbass!
 
2013-04-20 04:42:16 PM  

PacificaFitz: t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average

The FX were pretty good, I'll grant that. The writing was godawful. The characters were bland and forgettable with the exception of the EMH and Seven. Nobody ever developed, every episode reset the state back to where it was at the start of the episode- which was extra offensive since Voyager was the first ST not developed for syndication-  it was the first ST that they controlled the airing of the episodes. They could have done all sorts of great story arcs, but didn't.

Also, the premise was just awful.

Tom Paris?  Harry Kim?  Captain Janeway?  Tuvak?  Chikote?  Belana?  How can you say they didn't have good charecters?  Janeway was brilliant.  Some of the best ST stories came out of this show!  The Borg might have started with TNG but it was perfected with Voyager.

The problem people have with Voyager is that it wasn't on the bridge of the Enterprise.  It was a different story all together.


9/10. You threw subtlety out the window and went full on Troll. The misspellings and the "VOY Borgs > TNG Borgs" statement were genius. You would have earned you a 10/10 is if you said that Chakotay was the best character in the ST series.
 
2013-04-20 04:42:31 PM  

Freschel: Let's address that elephant in the room. The real reason why "Enterprise" wasn't so popular is because "Star Trek" over saturation. With in a decade we had four "Star Trek" series and when "Enterprise" went into being, people said enough is enough and stopped watching anything "Star Trek". Oh yeah "Voyager" was a big giant suck fest. And it's not because it wasn't on the bridge on the Enterprise. Lost interest in that series half way into the first season. Thought having a Borg queen was bad but "Voyager" had to go full retard and introduce to us Borg children. I only saw one episode with them and I think that was on the last season.


I kind of agree, but there's a few other reasons why Enterprise wasn't so popular. The biggie in my mind being the stupid Temporal Cold War bullshiat. I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it. After that there's several things that stick out. Shiatty theme song, trying to explain Klingons without the head ridges when the DS9 episode where Worf says "We don't like to talk about it" was fine, having to forget Star Trek canon in order to enjoy an episode.

Mind you I enjoyed several aspects of the show like Vulcans as conniving assholes, learning more about the Andorians, a somewhat deeper exploration of Vulcans in general, and of course the one thing just about every Trek that's done it has done well, the Mirror Universe episodes. I would love to see a Trek series based entirely in the Mirror universe.
 
2013-04-20 04:44:06 PM  

PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now


fark you.
 
2013-04-20 04:44:18 PM  

FuryOfFirestorm: skinink: "If both Peter and Sylar had stayed dead after the end of season one, there could have been a clean slate and a chance to start over. "
I think both characters killed momentum once they became virtually indestructible/powerful in the first season. And yes Syler should have stayed dead, plus the battle between Peter and Syler was written poorly.

Plus the writers kept painting the storylines into a corner. I hated the multiple versions of a dead Ali Larter character. Just kill her off already.

The original intent was to start each season with a whole new cast (like they do now with Power Rangers), but then the usual Executive Meddling happened, and then we got:

1) Sylar shifting from good to bad every other episode.

2) The limits of Peter's powers changing from every hour - "I can use everyone's powers....no wait, I can only use them one at a time...nope, I can only use my powers after eating a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos in under 5 minutes while doing the Macarena"

3) Characters disappearing and never being mentioned again, like the Irish chick Peter left in another timeline, or the girl that could imitate any skill see watched

4) Everyone else making some of the stupidest decisions ever, especially Hiro. The guy had the power to rewind time, and instead of using it go back and warm everyone about Sylar, or the virus, or anything else bad, he wastes his time trying to bang some waitress with perfect eidectic memory. WTF? You can go bang her AFTER you've stopped Sylar from eating her brains, you dumbass!


I also think the character of Adam was completely wasted. They could have come up with something to more fully tie him into the modern day heroes. Maybe he ends up being an ancestor to all of them or something. In the end, he went out like a punk.
 
2013-04-20 04:47:27 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: Freschel: Let's address that elephant in the room. The real reason why "Enterprise" wasn't so popular is because "Star Trek" over saturation. With in a decade we had four "Star Trek" series and when "Enterprise" went into being, people said enough is enough and stopped watching anything "Star Trek". Oh yeah "Voyager" was a big giant suck fest. And it's not because it wasn't on the bridge on the Enterprise. Lost interest in that series half way into the first season. Thought having a Borg queen was bad but "Voyager" had to go full retard and introduce to us Borg children. I only saw one episode with them and I think that was on the last season.

I kind of agree, but there's a few other reasons why Enterprise wasn't so popular. The biggie in my mind being the stupid Temporal Cold War bullshiat. I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it. After that there's several things that stick out. Shiatty theme song, trying to explain Klingons without the head ridges when the DS9 episode where Worf says "We don't like to talk about it" was fine, having to forget Star Trek canon in order to enjoy an episode.

Mind you I enjoyed several aspects of the show like Vulcans as conniving assholes, learning more about the Andorians, a somewhat deeper exploration of Vulcans in general, and of course the one thing just about every Trek that's done it has done well, the Mirror Universe episodes. I would love to see a Trek series based entirely in the Mirror universe.


I think there's been some good time travel episodes. The DS9 tribble episode was fun. The Voyager episode where Kes lives her life backward was pretty good. And I also like the TNG episode with Max Headroom. Cause and Effect worked pretty well, too.
 
2013-04-20 04:53:32 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it.


you're on crack.

There was Star Trek IV, then:

Star Trek: First Contact
TNG - Yesterday's Enterprise
TNG - All Good Things...
DS9 - Trials and Tribble-ations
DS9 - The Visitor

And I'm sure others.  That's off the top of my head.
 
2013-04-20 04:55:35 PM  

Techhell: FTA: 6) Lost
This show was always about the relationships, more than about the plot mechanics or big mysteries. My theory is always that when people say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost," they really mean, "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters, where all of this wound up meaning something to them."

Yeah, this is where I went from "I can see that." to "This is utter bullshiate." When I say "I didn't get enough answers from Lost." I mean "I DIDN'T GET ENOUGH ANSWERS FROM LOST." I didn't tune in to see who Kate was farking this week, or whether Sawyer and Juliette were going to make it as a couple, or if Hurley was going to find love. I tuned into find out more about the Dharma project. I wanted to know why there was time travel. I wanted more information about the Others. I wanted more Richard. Why was Walt important? Etc. The relationships were nice, but I didn't care about them. Heck, I didn't even like half the characters. If there hadn't been the mysteries of the show I would have dropped it halfway through the first season.

So the idea that "I didn't get enough resolution with the characters" is insulting.


That was one of the worst things about Lost: the writers promised from day one that all questions would be answered (they also "promised" they weren't dead or in purgatory, but we saw how that went...).

Walt gets kidnapped...then nothing. Just a brief appearance here and there, and no explanation why the Others wanted him except that "they wanted him".

Polar bears pop up and attack the castaways. No explanation other than some 2 second remark in the Dharma video, and then it's never mentioned again.

We see a giant statue leg with 6 toes....which is promptly forgotten by the next episode.

It's like they were just pulling sh*t out their asses and throwing it on the wall until it stuck.

You don't show stuff like a giant statue leg with extra digits and just shrug it off like it was nothing. That's just lazy hack writing.
 
2013-04-20 04:57:17 PM  
Dafuq did I just read? No good time travel Trek eps? City on Edge of Forever? Yesterday's Enterprise? Sisko as the 50s SciFi writer?

Take that trollin' noise elsewhere.
 
2013-04-20 05:03:00 PM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Dingleberry Dickwad: I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it.

you're on crack.

There was Star Trek IV, then:

Star Trek: First Contact
TNG - Yesterday's Enterprise
TNG - All Good Things...
DS9 - Trials and Tribble-ations
DS9 - The Visitor

And I'm sure others.  That's off the top of my head.


I don't know why, but I had completely forgotten about most of those, even Trials and Tribble-ations and I referenced that one... May be time to stop drinking for today.
 
2013-04-20 05:06:28 PM  

47 is the new 42: and retconning Quinn's backstory to being from another Earth and having a brother (which was apparently originally supposed to be an elaborate Kromagg deception, but got nixed by said Hack producer) and then merging Quinn with a fraternal double and making previously mentioned brother (that was originally supposed to be some sort of Kromagg clone of Quinn with some alterations, but as I mentioned before that idea got nixed by the Hack producer) unstuck in space-time, and seriously being able to change the universe you happen to be in during the second episode of Season 5?  That's just bullshiat.

Seasons 1 and 2 are good.  "Double Cross" and "The Guardian" in Season 3 are good as well as"Season's Greedings" (with the exception of Rembrandt getting brainwashed to buy stuff through sublminal advertising) as we get some character development of Wade.  There were a few good or good in concept episodes of Season 4.  I think Just Say Yes would have worked better with Quinn and Wade getting drugged up and the Professor and Rembrandt trying to save them, and the Professor should have been the anti-drug hippie and Pavel the cab driver.

/ Forcing my way through Season 5 on Amazon Instant Video so I can be disappointed in the "ending."


The show jumped the shark once it drifted from the great "what if?" concept and became centered around plots ripped off from other sci-fi media. Then the show f*cked the shark in the ass without lube when they killed off Prof. Arturo and replaced Wade with the human personification of Grumpy Cat.

The show did have a few good concepts along the way, but they never really developed them, like Logan St. Claire. Having an evil female alternate Quinn as an adversary would have been awesome, but she was never heard from again.

If I ever win the lottery, I will pay Tracy Torme and the original cast lots of money to come back and continue the show as if everything after Season 2 never existed.
 
2013-04-20 05:51:33 PM  

FuryOfFirestorm: That was one of the worst things about Lost: the writers promised from day one that all questions would be answered (they also "promised" they weren't dead or in purgatory, but we saw how that went...).


The weren't dead or in purgatory.  The only part of the show that the characters were dead during was the "sideways" timeline of the final season.  The rest of the show was taking place with living people.

FuryOfFirestorm: Polar bears pop up and attack the castaways. No explanation other than some 2 second remark in the Dharma video, and then it's never mentioned again.


The first half of Season 3 had a ton of mentions on how Dharma did animal testing as part of their experiments (hence the cages).  Those animals included polar bears.

FuryOfFirestorm: We see a giant statue leg with 6 toes....which is promptly forgotten by the next episode.


Until it showed up again as the residence of Jacob, and also tied into the ancient parts of the island like the temple.  Beyond that, I don't have a problem with the characters not bothering to talk about it.  They had more important things to worry about (like survival against a hostile native group).
 
2013-04-20 06:07:46 PM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Dingleberry Dickwad: I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it.

you're on crack.

There was Star Trek IV, then:

Star Trek: First Contact
TNG - Yesterday's Enterprise
TNG - All Good Things...
DS9 - Trials and Tribble-ations
DS9 - The Visitor

And I'm sure others.  That's off the top of my head.


City on the Edge of Forever
the one with Sarah Silverman
the one where Sisko has to take on the identity of a 21st century revolutionary guy
 
2013-04-20 06:20:06 PM  

Gunther: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show

I'm gonna assume you watched it as a little kid and that's nostalgia talking. Go re-watch it - it's actually kinda amazing how terrible it is. Every character is paper-thin, scripts are terribly written, half of the actors clearly don't care and are totally phoning it in... It's just a bad, bad show.


I actually had the opposite reaction. I didn't really like it all that much when it first ran, but watched the series recently on Netflix. I thought it was better than I remembered. Probably still the weakest of all the series, but it wasn't compleatly terrible.
The one actor, though, I did think didn't exactly give it all was Robert Beltrain, Chakotay. Especially down the stretch toward the end of the show.
 
2013-04-20 06:33:07 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Dingleberry Dickwad: I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it.

you're on crack.


There was Star Trek IV, then:


Star Trek: First Contact

TNG - Yesterday's Enterprise

TNG - All Good Things...

DS9 - Trials and Tribble-ations

DS9 - The Visitor


And I'm sure others.  That's off the top of my head.


I don't know why, but I had completely forgotten about most of those, even Trials and Tribble-ations and I referenced that one... May be time to stop drinking for today.


Sorry "First Contact" wasn't that good. It ruin the Borg and many other things. Yes I'm butt hurt about that.
 
2013-04-20 06:54:31 PM  

peasandcarrots: bikkurikun: A pretty sound list, I am only missing Eureka; they did the same stupid thing as Fringe, I couldn't get myself interested after they moved to an alternate future.

Don't agree with Supernatural though; it's still fun, although probably it would be a good idea to stop now.

And I am tired of Doctor Who as well; time to let him rest again for a decade or so.

If Doctor Who fails again, it'll probably be because of Stephen Moffatt. These huge, twisted plot tumors he injected into the sixth season had me just kind of hanging on and hoping for the best; every episode introduced some overweening new concept that would have a huge impact on everything for the rest of the season, and even then didn't make much sense. There were only two episodes that didn't require every other episode in the series to make sense, and neither one was very good, as if Moffatt just didn't particularly give a damn about them. The whole thing screamed "vanity project."

It's not a bad thing to have a story arc, or even several story arcs running parallel, but if your viewers don't click with one of those arcs, you're stuck with it for the duration, and it'll just hurt you. (I shudder at the vast quantity of materials trying to force us to like the "gangers." They have action figures of those goddamn things. You know, because science fiction TV just doesn't have enough mistaken-identity duplicate stories.) What started out as the Secret Word ("Bad Wolf") that ran through the whole series, a mystery only discovered late in the game, and solved in the final episode, has become the central plot device upon which all other facets of the series lean, a cheap gimmick to keep idiots like me glued to the set for thirteen weeks.

Moffatt HAS walked this back a bit for Series Seven - maybe he got slapped by a critic or something, I don't know. But the series' dependence on internet buzz for ratings is biting its ass in a big way.


Which must be working, because it usually wins the night on the BBC, and is getting record ratings for BBC America.

Who ratings are in the same range the new series have always been in.
 
2013-04-20 06:55:42 PM  

soporific: chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.

I watched Voyager from the first episode to the last. Voyager is the Episode 1 of all the Star Trek series. It had so much potential to be great, but instead it became an embarassment. Especially when you compared it to Babylon 5, a series that managed to do a lot more with a lot less.

The reason I did watch the show is that I was a huge Star Trek fan, and every once in a while they would make a great episode, and I would hold out hope that this was a sign of Voyager turning a corner and becoming a quality program. And then it would go back to business as usual, and right when I was about to write it off, they gave us another good episode.

Another reason I watched was so I could have informed complaints about the show. It's no fun bashing a show sight unseen. I need to know what I'm bashing and I need to know how specificaly the show is disappointing me. Then I need to take to the internet and share my complaints with other like-minded complainers. Sometimes the best part about watching Voyager was going online and reading online critics completely savage that particular episode. (If i ever want to time warp back to the 90's, I simply go here.)

After Voyager ended, I then spent 10 years watching Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark, often so hilariously that it was worth watching. (And why I loved the website Television Without Pity.) It again became a guilty pleasure, especially in the last few seasons, and I never missed an episode because it would occasionally be great, and I had high h ...


http://www.jammersreviews.com/st-voy/s2/tattoo.php

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/voy-tattoo-review-64508 93

Compare these reviews

One clearly watched the episode, the other didn't
 
2013-04-20 07:03:29 PM  

FuryOfFirestorm: PacificaFitz: t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average


9/10. You threw subtlety out the window and went full on Troll. The misspellings and the "VOY Borgs > TNG Borgs" statement were genius. You would have earned you a 10/10 is if you said that Chakotay was the best character in the ST series.


I swear I'm not trolling, Voyager was and still is my favorite series in the Star Trek universe.  I am NOT TROLLING.

Second time in as many days I was accused of trolling when it was the furthest thing from my mind....
 
2013-04-20 07:06:03 PM  

karasoth: soporific: chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.

I watched Voyager from the first episode to the last. Voyager is the Episode 1 of all the Star Trek series. It had so much potential to be great, but instead it became an embarassment. Especially when you compared it to Babylon 5, a series that managed to do a lot more with a lot less.

The reason I did watch the show is that I was a huge Star Trek fan, and every once in a while they would make a great episode, and I would hold out hope that this was a sign of Voyager turning a corner and becoming a quality program. And then it would go back to business as usual, and right when I was about to write it off, they gave us another good episode.

Another reason I watched was so I could have informed complaints about the show. It's no fun bashing a show sight unseen. I need to know what I'm bashing and I need to know how specificaly the show is disappointing me. Then I need to take to the internet and share my complaints with other like-minded complainers. Sometimes the best part about watching Voyager was going online and reading online critics completely savage that particular episode. (If i ever want to time warp back to the 90's, I simply go here.)

After Voyager ended, I then spent 10 years watching Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark, often so hilariously that it was worth watching. (And why I loved the website Television Without Pity.) It again became a guilty pleasure, especially in the last few seasons, and I never missed an episode because it would occasionally be great, and I ...


Wow, that Blip review is pretty bad. Sounds like dude is trying to be edgy but comes off as a complete dumbass.
 
2013-04-20 07:09:34 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: soporific: chewielouie: PacificaFitz: I am so tired of the disrespect Voyager gets, it was a damn good show.....I'll read the article now

THIS. I'm convinced that people that hated Voyager, actually didn't watch it. And if they thought it sucked, why DID they watch it.

WIth that said, know this: episode for episode, Voyager was much, much better than TNG. Take away the episodes with Q and the Borg and TNG is barely watchable today.

I watched Voyager from the first episode to the last. Voyager is the Episode 1 of all the Star Trek series. It had so much potential to be great, but instead it became an embarassment. Especially when you compared it to Babylon 5, a series that managed to do a lot more with a lot less.

The reason I did watch the show is that I was a huge Star Trek fan, and every once in a while they would make a great episode, and I would hold out hope that this was a sign of Voyager turning a corner and becoming a quality program. And then it would go back to business as usual, and right when I was about to write it off, they gave us another good episode.

Another reason I watched was so I could have informed complaints about the show. It's no fun bashing a show sight unseen. I need to know what I'm bashing and I need to know how specificaly the show is disappointing me. Then I need to take to the internet and share my complaints with other like-minded complainers. Sometimes the best part about watching Voyager was going online and reading online critics completely savage that particular episode. (If i ever want to time warp back to the 90's, I simply go here.)

After Voyager ended, I then spent 10 years watching Smallville. Again, it was a show that was so close to being good and yet it missed the mark, often so hilariously that it was worth watching. (And why I loved the website Television Without Pity.) It again became a guilty pleasure, especially in the last few seasons, and I never missed an episode because it would occasionally be gr ...


Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't
 
2013-04-20 07:10:55 PM  

PacificaFitz: FuryOfFirestorm: PacificaFitz: t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average


9/10. You threw subtlety out the window and went full on Troll. The misspellings and the "VOY Borgs > TNG Borgs" statement were genius. You would have earned you a 10/10 is if you said that Chakotay was the best character in the ST series.

I swear I'm not trolling, Voyager was and still is my favorite series in the Star Trek universe.  I am NOT TROLLING.

Second time in as many days I was accused of trolling when it was the furthest thing from my mind....


The characters COULD have been good but they had some of the worst trek writing, and some of the worst production choices on a trek series
 
2013-04-20 07:13:17 PM  
Avon was the best character on the show, a sardonic, misanthropic computer nerd who was always ready to double-cross Blake but also kind of loved him. (He should be played by Mark Sheppard in the new version, if Syfy is smart.)

I've never watched Blake's 7 but Mark Sheppard makes everything better. Get him into the new Star Wars movies and he'll have played a part in just about every major sci-fi franchise there is.
 
2013-04-20 07:14:18 PM  

Mugato: 47 is the new 42: t also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early

I was just about to say that. There was the occasional traitor and Belanna was a biatch but for the most part by the second episode they were one happy family. And no, there were no consequences. Half the ship could be blown apart and by the next episode everything was back to normal. I realize with replicators or whatever that repair procedures might be easier but still.

And the finale sucked. "Hey, there's Earth!" Credits.


That was pretty crappy, obviously Enterprise had a worse one. The Original Series didn't even have a true finale so really only DS9 and TNG had good endings. Yet they were different, TNG didn't end anything, story wise. It was like a big episode, the ship and crew were still on their merry way at the conclusion of the show. Deep Space Nine was a more traditional finale, they actually wrapped things up in it. They both worked for different reasons, TNG helped set up for the movies and since there really wasn't any plans for a DS9 movie, wrap that sucker up. Everyone happy, except Avery Brooks, who didn't like Sisko becoming a god with a baby on the way and is a little crazy.
 
2013-04-20 07:14:27 PM  

karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't


That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.
 
2013-04-20 07:18:07 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.


His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism
 
2013-04-20 07:24:37 PM  

karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.

His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism


So wait, his racist remarks on a totally unrelated DS9 episode, are cool because his review of the Voyager episode points out racism?
 
2013-04-20 07:27:49 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.

His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism

So wait, his racist remarks on a totally unrelated DS9 episode, are cool because his review of the Voyager episode points out racism?


Are you talking about his Pimp King of the Universe Ben Sisqo gimmick?
 
2013-04-20 07:31:18 PM  

karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.

His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism

So wait, his racist remarks on a totally unrelated DS9 episode, are cool because his review of the Voyager episode points out racism?

Are you talking about his Pimp King of the Universe Ben Sisqo gimmick?


Don't know anything about that, I just remember the whole "Big Black Penis" remarks in the early part of the review. Dude seems to have an agenda specifically looking for racism where none is or none is intended.
 
2013-04-20 08:25:16 PM  
The Andy Griffith Show B/W - Color
 
2013-04-20 08:36:36 PM  

PacificaFitz: FuryOfFirestorm: PacificaFitz: t3knomanser: boogerwolf: thought the writing and fx were above average


9/10. You threw subtlety out the window and went full on Troll. The misspellings and the "VOY Borgs > TNG Borgs" statement were genius. You would have earned you a 10/10 is if you said that Chakotay was the best character in the ST series.

I swear I'm not trolling, Voyager was and still is my favorite series in the Star Trek universe.  I am NOT TROLLING.

Second time in as many days I was accused of trolling when it was the furthest thing from my mind....


You may not be trolling us, but your taste in SciFi is certainly trolling you, man.
 
2013-04-20 08:45:03 PM  
Wife and I are watching Supernatural right now.  (Near end of season 4.)  I remember a comic (Subnormality) that pointed out that almost every show starts to suck after season 5, although 6 and 7 are somewhat watchable - so I asked a friend whether it was worth watching Supernatural after 5.  He said probably not.  So now that's two votes.
 
2013-04-20 09:06:56 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Dingleberry Dickwad: karasoth: Well I am sorry: Its a blatantly racist and moronic episode made by a man claiming to be native american who wasn't

That isn't an excuse for the reviewer who did the Blip review video to be a racist asshole as well.

His comments that you interpreted as racist were based on the show's racism

So wait, his racist remarks on a totally unrelated DS9 episode, are cool because his review of the Voyager episode points out racism?

Are you talking about his Pimp King of the Universe Ben Sisqo gimmick?

Don't know anything about that, I just remember the whole "Big Black Penis" remarks in the early part of the review. Dude seems to have an agenda specifically looking for racism where none is or none is intended.


Its a running gag

Ben Sisqo is every Sam Jackson character amped up to 1000
Janeway is a deranged psychopath who rules over her crew with an iron fist and torture
Captain Archer is a moron
Picard is a patrician with a pathological feat of children
Captain Kirk is Zapp brannigan
 
2013-04-21 12:22:46 AM  

Hebalo: 47 is the new 42: Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.

It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.

Like everything on the show, that conflict was shelved in favor of bland, easy to resolve single episode pablum. Characters vehemently disagree with one another, only to have forgotten it completely by the next episode. Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.


Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home.

What the hell did TNG give us. Picard was either "make it so" "engage" or "suggestions?" Wesley was phasing with the Traveler or shutting up. What a load of shiat episode those were. Riker was getting giggity with some androgynous alien. Worf didn't really get interesting until DS9. Basically, it was pretty much Data saves everyone's asses again. Week in and week out.
 
2013-04-21 12:30:05 AM  
chewielouie:

Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home.

What the hell did TNG give us. Picard was either "make it so" "engage" or "suggestions?" Wesley was phasing with the Traveler or shutting up. What a load of shiat episode those were. Riker was getting giggity with some androgynous alien. Worf didn't really get interesting until DS9. Basically, it was pretty much Data saves everyone's asses again. Week in and week out.


This
 
2013-04-21 12:32:22 AM  

Mugato: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Dingleberry Dickwad: I can't think of a single episode of Star Trek involving time travel that was any good. Sure the movie with the whales wasn't too horrible and was at least entertaining, but that's it.

you're on crack.

There was Star Trek IV, then:

Star Trek: First Contact
TNG - Yesterday's Enterprise
TNG - All Good Things...
DS9 - Trials and Tribble-ations
DS9 - The Visitor

And I'm sure others.  That's off the top of my head.

City on the Edge of Forever
the one with Sarah Silverman
the one where Sisko has to take on the identity of a 21st century revolutionary guy


Time's Arrow was great too.
 
2013-04-21 12:38:55 AM  

chewielouie: Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home


I'm not a huge fan of Voyager, but you're right about this. Of all the characters I thought Janeway changed the most. She was the most annoying, worthless character of all of them at the start of the show, but she eventually became tolerable, and then pretty great. She was practically ruthless by the end.
 
2013-04-21 01:10:48 AM  
All I know is in season 3 Adams JUMPS THE FRACKING Galactic a into the atmo and launches his fighters while dropping lock a stone and then jumps out to engage two Basestars. Brass balls that man has. Nothing after that point in season three needs to be remembered.
 
2013-04-21 01:55:32 AM  

chewielouie: Hebalo: 47 is the new 42: Hebalo: Voyager blew. Straight up. Because it has NO consequences. The characters never really struggled with being years from home. The Ship was always repaired, the rest button always pushed. The only time it got anywhere near interesting was the "Year in Hell", which is what the whole series should been. When you have a limitless galaxy, every possibility imaginable, and your characters potentially in dramatic circumstances due to their situation, and you have a NUMBER of episodes in the Holodeck, you're clearly bankrupt in the imagination column.

It also seemed to me that they prematurely took out the Starfleet vs. Maquis conflict too early.  Sure, both the Starfleet officers and the Maquis wanted to get back to the Alpha Quadrant, but there should have been more conflict between Starfleet principles and regulations and the way Maquis do things.  Sure there was some, but it seemed to be resolved way too soon.

Like everything on the show, that conflict was shelved in favor of bland, easy to resolve single episode pablum. Characters vehemently disagree with one another, only to have forgotten it completely by the next episode. Compare that to Babylon 5, where characters have actual arcs and development, and it's not hard to see why people scoff at Voyager.

Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home.

What the hell did TNG give us. Picard was either "make it so" "engage" or "suggestions?" Wesley was phasing with the Traveler or shutting up. What a load of shiat episode those were. Riker was getting giggity with some androgynous alien. Worf didn't really get interesting until DS9. Basically, it was pretty much Data saves everyone's asses again. Week in and week out.


And they pass up several good story arcs. Like the alien conspiracy to take over the Federation. Or that alien race that kidnapped some of the crew for study. What would have made an excellent story arc is when they discovered the Dyson Sphere. Hell they could make the Dysonian Empire the greatest threat the Federation will ever have met. Hell they could be the ones that created the Borgs. Any race is willing to blow up thousands of worlds and murdering trillions of beings to make their vanity project. Will have no problems turning species into the Borg. They might also the ones are responsible of making the doomsday device. (You'll need something to break planets apart) Unfortunately they drop the ball on that one and the Dyson Sphere only got a crappy novel follow up. =(
 
2013-04-21 02:04:00 AM  

PacificaFitz: The problem people have with Voyager is that it wasn't on the bridge of the Enterprise.  It was a different story all together.


"It was a different story."
 
2013-04-21 09:47:30 AM  

chewielouie: Holy farking shiat, the exact same thing could be said about TNG, even more so. At least on Voyager, the Doctor evolved. Seven of Nine evolved. The relationship between Torres and Paris, evolved.  Janeway relationship with her crew evolved. The whole farking series was an arc . . . getting the fark back home.

What the hell did TNG give us. Picard was either "make it so" "engage" or "suggestions?" Wesley was phasing with the Traveler or shutting up. What a load of shiat episode those were. Riker was getting giggity with some androgynous alien. Worf didn't really get interesting until DS9. Basically, it was pretty much Data saves everyone's asses again. Week in and week out.


forums.pelicanparts.com
And we liked it!  We loved it!

TNG was great for the time it came out.  One of the reasons Voyager gets looked down on for having a lot of the same shortcomings (as far as serialization of characters/plots) is that prior to Voyager coming on, we had already had DS9 and Babylon 5.  Both those shows had well-developed characters and long serialized plots.  Voyager was a huge step backward.  It could have been an amazing show if they tweaked the characters slightly and simply allowed the episodes to have consequences.
 
2013-04-21 11:33:37 AM  

NeoCortex42: One of the reasons Voyager gets looked down on for having a lot of the same shortcomings (as far as serialization of characters/plots) is that prior to Voyager coming on, we had already had DS9 and Babylon 5.  ...  Voyager was a huge step backward.


Spot on.
 
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