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(North Jersey)   Pope redirects $2000 "new pope" bonuses for 4500+ Vatican workers to charitable organizations   (northjersey.com) divider line 188
    More: Spiffy, Vatican, Federico Lombardi, cost reduction, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Holy See  
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9430 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Apr 2013 at 5:54 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-18 09:47:02 PM  
Tax the churches. If they want to play in the political arena, which they have been doing more and more each year, they need to buy a ticket like the rest of us.
 
2013-04-18 09:48:56 PM  

GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?

Read the f*cking article.

Which would return again to my point of selling off some of the millenia of loot.


It would make perfect sense to sell off the Smithsonian Institute's assets, too.  Much of them are never seen by the public, and the place does nothing to help the poor.  9/11 Memorial? Sell the exhibits and shelter the homeless in it.

My point is that the Church keeps all of this stuff because its constituents want it to.
 
2013-04-18 09:51:48 PM  
ReverendJynxed

Golf clap... very nicely played!

FarkingCanuck

So basically, until the church is perfect, you have no use for them.  Well I guess you are an environment destroying, slavery supporting, native population decimating child abuse supporter yourself because you support a government that has done all those things and more, and hasn't come even close to apologizing and making restitutions for all of it.  Heck, if you are going to judge the day to day actions of millions of people based on a small number of their leaders I guess we can hang the crimes of the British  and French empires on your head too right?  That makes as much sense as what you're saying.  Or how about your own family.  Statiscally odds are quite reasonable that someone in your extended family is a pedophile who has harmed a child (30 - 50% of adults in the states were likely sexually abused, 1/3 by family, almost 2/3 close aquaintance of the family.  I guess unless your family has hunted down, outed and helped prosecute that person, you are guilty of protecting a sexual predator by association (unless you've disowned your family over it).  Yes, this is ridiculous, and faulty logic... same stream of logic you are spewing.  At least I can see the depth of your hate and put you in the same category of derp as GAT_00.
 
2013-04-18 09:53:42 PM  

Solid Muldoon: Tax the churches. If they want to play in the political arena, which they have been doing more and more each year, they need to buy a ticket like the rest of us.


Yes.  But let them decide which way they want to go.  If they want to be legitimate social justice organizations, then they get to be exempt.  If they want to directly advocate political positions (for/against, contribute to PACs, etc) then they need to pay up just like anyone else.
 
2013-04-18 09:53:45 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: That's not going to be very popeular with the workers


You mean popeular with the masses.
 
2013-04-18 09:55:38 PM  

xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?


Since when is a bonus to employees "other people's money" to the employer?
 
2013-04-18 09:58:01 PM  

lamecomedian: Farking Canuck: Good start. Now sell of some of the billions you have tied up in art and real estate and actually make a difference.

/and stop covering up child rape of course

Most of that "real estate" includes hospitals and schools, asshole.

It's like I said in the last Pope thread: for people who hate the Catholic Church, there is literally NOTHING it can do that will be good enough to appease them.


^^^^THIS
 
2013-04-18 10:00:33 PM  

BiffDangler: So wait a second.  Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus and your boss says "hey, I am going to do something really good and give away your bonus!"

I think everyone here would be pissed.


If you're entitled to it =/= a bonus.
 
2013-04-18 10:02:43 PM  
So, Your Holiness, shall we prepare the "new Pope" bonus checks for the minions?

No.

But, YH, it's traditional. They will be upset.

No, times are hard.

Times are hard for the minions, too, YH.

No. We can't afford it. That's final.

OK, at least we will save a bundle. There's that.

No again, Father, we are going to give it away to charities of my choice.

That makes no sense, YH.

I'm infallible. Also, you're fired.
 
2013-04-18 10:04:09 PM  

Scaevola: lamecomedian: Farking Canuck: Good start. Now sell of some of the billions you have tied up in art and real estate and actually make a difference.

/and stop covering up child rape of course

Most of that "real estate" includes hospitals and schools, asshole.

It's like I said in the last Pope thread: for people who hate the Catholic Church, there is literally NOTHING it can do that will be good enough to appease them.

^^^^THIS


These last couple weeks have been the first time in over a decade I haven't muttered "farking snake oil salesmen" when I hear something about the church... Grew up catholic and now and atheist but it's nice to see someone finally making some kind of attempt at aligning their actions with their morality over there.
 
2013-04-18 10:04:27 PM  

ReverendJynxed: BarkingUnicorn: foxy_canuck: Invisible Pedestrian
You missed the point of that story.  It's not that everyone should sell everything and give to the poor.  It's that the rich young man was arrogant enough to claim he followed all the laws all the time, and missed the point that he wasn't actually following God, or willing to sacrifice his life of comfort to do so.

The story has multiple points including, "Put your money  where your mouth is."  Jesus called upon some of the Apostles to abandon their livelihoods and become "fishers of men."

So he's trolling?


Jesus was one of the greatest trolls of all time.  Billions of bites, counting both believers and non-believers who were provoked to strong reactions by his words.

Like everything else, trolling is what you make of it.
 
2013-04-18 10:11:29 PM  

cptjeff: depriving future generations the enjoyment of that art


First, treasures in the Vatican -- even if open to the public -- are not readily accessible to most people in the world, so most people aren't losing anything even if those treasures are destroyed. There's a good argument to be made that distributing such treasures, even if done outside the church's supervision, would increase the number of people that get to enjoy them both now and in the future.

Second, I think you're confusing "sell" with "burn". No one is suggesting that the church should melt down all its precious metals and sell them on the commodities market. But the church could take their accumulated wealth and trade it to someone who does not have a stated mission of charity and service, so that the art would continue to exist -- they could even setup a deal that required public display from time to time -- and the church could use the related wealth for their primary mission rather than simply hoarding it.
 
2013-04-18 10:11:30 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?

Read the f*cking article.

Which would return again to my point of selling off some of the millenia of loot.

It would make perfect sense to sell off the Smithsonian Institute's assets, too.  Much of them are never seen by the public, and the place does nothing to help the poor.  9/11 Memorial? Sell the exhibits and shelter the homeless in it.

My point is that the Church keeps all of this stuff because its constituents want it to.


The constituents of the Catholic Church are arguably all the people on Earth, as they are representing God, so they are not because I'm saying they should.

And that would be a better use for the 9/11 memorial than the insulting tourist trap it is.

Also, I can brag about being to a Smithsonian asset that very few people have been to: an island in the Panama Canal.
 
2013-04-18 10:12:20 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: It would make perfect sense to sell off the Smithsonian Institute's assets, too.


It would if charity was one of the primary goals of the institute.
 
2013-04-18 10:14:22 PM  

Aarontology: How about you sell off some of the property the Church has instead of f*cking over the workers?


I wonder how many workers, counting on those bonuses, ended up in financial difficulties as a result of the new Pope's ersatz "charity?"
 
2013-04-18 10:20:12 PM  

Scaevola: MaudlinMutantMollusk: That's not going to be very popeular with the workers

You mean popeular with the masses.


Well, at least it wasn't a papal smear
 
2013-04-18 10:20:30 PM  

iheartscotch: Aarontology: How about you sell off some of the property the Church has instead of f*cking over the workers?

The problem is; almost all of the Church's property is tied up in buildings and art work. There are in the neighborhood of 300 churches, just in Rome. But, most of those churches have stood since at least the 14th century. They all have become, for lack of a better term, sacred cows. The art community would shiat a brick if the Church sold so much as one masterpiece.

/ Those workers are VERY well compensated; pensions, 401k's, and it's not like they get paid minimum wage.


As an American, visiting churches in Italy is a real eye opening experience.

One can easily walk down a rather modern street almost anywhere there, and the church on that block has been standing before any European step foot in the Americas.
 
2013-04-18 10:20:53 PM  

lamecomedian: It's like I said in the last Pope thread: for people who hate the Catholic Church, there is literally NOTHING it can do that will be good enough to appease them.


That's a valid point. And I'm sure there are plenty of haters here.

But it's not unreasonable to point out that accumulation of wealth is in conflict with the stated goals of the organization. It's not a conflict that necessarily can or even need be fully resolved, but it's a conflict that should be regularly and transparently addressed by those running the organization.
 
2013-04-18 10:27:08 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Jesus was one of the greatest trolls of all time.  Billions of bites, counting both believers and non-believers who were provoked to strong reactions by his words.


2.bp.blogspot.com
Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are.Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"


biblicalstudent.files.wordpress.com
"Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar's," they replied.


www.secretsofthefed.com
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
 
2013-04-18 10:30:54 PM  
This is impossible! No religious person has ever done anything good eve. EVER!
 
2013-04-18 10:33:02 PM  

profplump: BarkingUnicorn: It would make perfect sense to sell off the Smithsonian Institute's assets, too.

It would if charity was one of the primary goals of the institute.


I guess it depends on your definition of "charity." The SI supports scientists in return for their work, just as the Church supports its workers. The SI also gives away knowledge without getting something in return (30 million visitors per year pay no admission fee). So does the Church.
 
2013-04-18 10:34:55 PM  

Capo Del Bandito: GAT is a well known troll. Don't waste your time.


Unfortunately, I'm afraid he's more like one of the politicians who starts drinking his own Flavor Aid; he appears to actually have deluded himself into believing the tripe he spouts.
 
2013-04-18 10:37:01 PM  

GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?


Because, unlike the Federal Reserve, the Vatican doesn't get to fire up the presses when it wants things it can't afford.
 
2013-04-18 10:42:56 PM  

impaler: BarkingUnicorn: Jesus was one of the greatest trolls of all time.  Billions of bites, counting both believers and non-believers who were provoked to strong reactions by his words.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 300x266]
Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are.Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"


[biblicalstudent.files.wordpress.com image 400x300]
"Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar's," they replied.


[www.secretsofthefed.com image 235x214]
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."


He was good at the pown, too. But powning is not trolling.   The Sermon on the Mount is my favorite example.
 
2013-04-18 10:43:55 PM  

Solid Muldoon: Tax the churches. If they want to play in the political arena, which they have been doing more and more each year, they need to buy a ticket like the rest of us.


lolwut.jpg

The church has been getting continuously less involved in the political arena for the past 1000 years.
 
2013-04-18 10:46:47 PM  
Did everyone else read the same article I did? I didn't see where any money was redirected to charity, is there more to the story than I'm reading.
 
2013-04-18 11:03:44 PM  
(I'mokwiththis.jpg)


And good on him for doing it.
 
2013-04-18 11:24:26 PM  

great_tigers: This is impossible! No religious person has ever done anything good eve. EVER!


Some of the ones in the last two thousand years have been copying the work of earlier students, and passing it off as their own.
 
2013-04-19 12:13:52 AM  

foxy_canuck: Wow...  GAT is really turning up the anti-Catholic rhetoric today.  Did you even read the farking article?  He didn't give away other people's bonuses, he cut the bonuses due to economic strain in Europe, and donated a sizable chunk from the papal charity account.  More than is typically donated in one go, which is why its noticeable or significant.

Second, what the hell 'loot' do you think they have.  Of course it's worth billions... have you been in the Sistine Chapel?  The artwork and artifacts in the chapel and surrounding museum are EASILY worth billions.  Of course, you CAN'T sell that because its more or less ALL priceless artifacts.  Do you think they just have a big storehouse of gold coins they melt down to make new chalices and crosiers all the time?  They USE the farking old, historic stuff that was made in the political heyday of the church.  And real estate?  do you think there are vast tracts of land sitting empty and unused?  If he sells that off to 'help the poor' he'd also be firing the Vatican staff because that's where they live and work!  And the churches?  The diocese (not the vatican) owns those (a diocese has separate finances and no financial connection to the Vatican).  The building on the land is almost always owned by the parish itself and paid by parishioners.  Even if the Pope wanted to, he doesn't have ANY authority to sell those lands OR buildings.  And the stuff in them (the gold and artwork) is almost always gold plating or gold leaf, not solid gold, and is almost always either an artifact, or donated directly by a wealthy parishioner (kind of like when Joseph of Arimathea donated a rather expensive tomb (hewn out of solid rock and never used) and burial supplies, or when one of the servants anointed Jesus' feet with crazy expensive oil (regardless of whether you believe in the stories, those are Gospel stories that are part of the background of the Church).

Also Vatican accounts typically DON'T come from individuals donating to t ...


VERY well said.

/good on ya, Pope Francis
//I'm probably not coming back, but so far I'm liking what you're doing to the place
 
2013-04-19 01:22:56 AM  

ISO15693: Well, the LDS Church avoids this sort of problem, because the tithing/donation slips have categories you can have donations directed to, otherwise it's just "to be used at the discretion of the church" - I assume that Catholics have the same sort of thing, and therefore it would be the pope's responsibility to decide wher ...


Actually the latest reprint makes it always used at the discretion of the church, even if you designate it to specific categories.
 
2013-04-19 01:24:58 AM  

Captain Dan: Solid Muldoon: Tax the churches. If they want to play in the political arena, which they have been doing more and more each year, they need to buy a ticket like the rest of us.

lolwut.jpg

The church has been getting continuously less involved in the political arena for the past 1000 years.


You are correct, sir.  I should have been more specific. I know the churches used to buy and sell Kings and countries. It went out of fashion. But it is coming back.

In my life time, I have seen the churches in America go from talking about morals and sin to talking about "If you vote for this man you will burn in hell." And spending the tax exempt money they get to buy political ads on TV.

Tax them.
 
2013-04-19 02:05:14 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: ReverendJynxed: BarkingUnicorn: foxy_canuck: Invisible Pedestrian
You missed the point of that story.  It's not that everyone should sell everything and give to the poor.  It's that the rich young man was arrogant enough to claim he followed all the laws all the time, and missed the point that he wasn't actually following God, or willing to sacrifice his life of comfort to do so.

The story has multiple points including, "Put your money  where your mouth is."  Jesus called upon some of the Apostles to abandon their livelihoods and become "fishers of men."

So he's trolling?

Jesus was one of the greatest trolls of all time.  Billions of bites, counting both believers and non-believers who were provoked to strong reactions by his words.

Like everything else, trolling is what you make of it.


www.cartoonstock.com

/hot like hellfire
 
2013-04-19 08:47:30 AM  

foxy_canuck: So basically, until the church is perfect, you have no use for them. Well I guess you are an environment destroying, slavery supporting, native population decimating child abuse supporter yourself because you support a government that has done all those things and more, and hasn't come even close to apologizing and making restitutions for all of it.


Asking a group to cooperate with the police to expose and prosecute the criminals they are actively hiding within their ranks is not asking them to be perfect. It is asking them to admit to their sins and accept the consequences. Nice strawman.

Re governments: I do not have a choice with the financial support ... not paying taxes gets me put in jail. I do vote to do my part to affect change within the government and criminal activity definitely loses my vote. In the last Canadian federal election the incumbent party was decimated because of criminal financial kickbacks in Quebec (known as the 'adscam' sponsorship scandal) ... kickbacks are not nearly as serious as hiding child rapists but we acted and removed the criminals from power. Too bad catholics refuse to do this.
 
2013-04-19 10:07:51 AM  

PepperFreak: Let me know when that shiatstain gives up all the gold and the castle and the rest of the bullshiat the church has and donates that to the poor.
funny how the head of the jesus fan club lives a very un-jesus like life.


I hate the caltholic church as much as the next guy (was raised in it and my mom was Head of Indoctrination at our church for 35 years) but this guy may be a little different. Let's give him a chance and see where he goes. He has a history of living if not an uncomfortably impoverished life at least very frugally. Let's see if he puts the whole church on that path. I don't have much hope on some other issues, women in the church, gays and how they're treated by the church, but he seems good on some others and doesn't seem like he's gonna take any shiat from the hierarchy. We'll see.
 
2013-04-19 10:23:19 AM  

LovingTeacher: PepperFreak: Let me know when that shiatstain gives up all the gold and the castle and the rest of the bullshiat the church has and donates that to the poor.
funny how the head of the jesus fan club lives a very un-jesus like life.

I hate the caltholic church as much as the next guy (was raised in it and my mom was Head of Indoctrination at our church for 35 years) but this guy may be a little different. Let's give him a chance and see where he goes. He has a history of living if not an uncomfortably impoverished life at least very frugally. Let's see if he puts the whole church on that path. I don't have much hope on some other issues, women in the church, gays and how they're treated by the church, but he seems good on some others and doesn't seem like he's gonna take any shiat from the hierarchy. We'll see.


I think that most people agree that this guy is certainly better than Palpatine ... and this is a good thing.

Let's just not suddenly forget about all the criminals hiding in the church, both the prosecuted pedos and those shielding them from justice now or in the past, just because there has been a management change.
 
2013-04-19 01:58:02 PM  
Farking Canuck
You keep talking about the criminals hiding in the church... who specifically are you talking about?

All the Canadian guys had evidence turned over to the police, same in Ireland (a friend of mine is dealing with that part of it right now).  Are you thinking specifically of Cardinal Law?  You do realize that's a conspiracy theory, that he did testify before a grand jury a couple of times, and provide evidence on the priests who were accused right?  You know that he was acquitted of any civil guilt in the matter because what he did (not reporting the molestations and moving the priests)  wasn't illegal in the US at the time.  It only became a legal requirement for disclosure on that stuff in 2002, AFTER the scandals in the US.  Are you talking about Benedict?  Because it was the US government who excused him initially on diplomatic immunity, and in the most recent case naming him, there has been no request from the US courts for any evidence, and he is no longer immune as he is not the head of state... AFAIK there is no subpoena for him or anyone else living in the Vatican that is being refused.

The actual reality is that the incidents of abuse in the church have dropped dramatically since the mid 80's because of an ever increasing attention to the issue.  In the 50's and 60's the prevailing wisdom was to try and fix the problem internally (in virtually every organization).  Since then the church has made sexual abuse of a child specifically a canonical crime that can get a priest defrocked and even excommunicated.  Many priests and bishops have been.   JPII and Benedict both explicitly stated that Bishops are to cooperate with civil authorities.  There is now a global written policy for all bishops and dioceses to have strong child protection policies, and to report any disclosures to civil authorities, as well as to cooperate with civil authorities.  The Church in Canada, the US, Australia, Europe, the Philippines etc. have cooperated almost universally with law enforcement.  The Church in North America has become one of the leading organizations teaching children how to recognize and disclose sexual contact or suggestion.  You and everyone else is right to be angry at what happened.  And there should be anger wherever it is still happening.  The reality is though that the church is aggressively putting a stop to it where coverups are happening.  With hundreds of Bishops the world, it is a challenge to ensure the policies are being followed everywhere, but special commissions have been set up to do just that.  The progress has been very rapid and very effective, especially for the Church.  So what is it you are asking for if that is not it?  Who/what are they hiding?  Difficulty, you need actual evidence to make that kind of accusation.  I've provided lots that the church is tackling the problem head on, all you've done is fire off conjectures.
 
2013-04-19 02:22:17 PM  

foxy_canuck: You keep talking about the criminals hiding in the church... who specifically are you talking about?


Nobody is suggesting that catholic church has not changed its policies. The previous scandals were very bad for their reputations and quite expensive. Changing policies is just a sound business decision.

Can you honestly say that you believe that the catholic church has owned up to every incident that was reported to them? That they have stepped up to each and every victim, taken responsibility for their actions (and inactions) and done everything they can to make reparations to their victims?

You believe that no victims were hushed up with threats of excommunication, etc?

Take a quick Google ... stories like this are easy to find.
 
2013-04-19 06:38:19 PM  
Shouldn't the plural of "bonus" be "boni"?
 
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