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(North Jersey)   Pope redirects $2000 "new pope" bonuses for 4500+ Vatican workers to charitable organizations   (northjersey.com) divider line 188
    More: Spiffy, Vatican, Federico Lombardi, cost reduction, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Holy See  
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9401 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Apr 2013 at 5:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-18 04:16:34 PM
Not only that, he gave the money from his own personal charity fund. Good on ya, Pope. I like you better than the last one.
 
2013-04-18 04:17:28 PM
The Pope gets paid?
 
2013-04-18 04:19:28 PM
That's not going to be very popeular with the workers
 
2013-04-18 04:20:08 PM
How about you sell off some of the property the Church has instead of f*cking over the workers?
 
2013-04-18 04:20:19 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: The Pope gets paid?


Not that I'm aware of - they get buried with coins representing years of service or something. Maybe he looted the tombs.
 
2013-04-18 04:20:31 PM
In 2005, some 4,000 Vatican employees received a 1,000 euro bonus ($1,300) upon the death of Pope John Paul II, and another 500 euros ($650) upon the election of his successor, Benedict XVI.

If there was ever a good motivation to murder a Pope...
 
2013-04-18 04:21:23 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: The Pope gets paid?


I think he works for tips
 
2013-04-18 04:24:02 PM
So he did the christian thing?

Gotta every now and again....
 
2013-04-18 04:39:00 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: The Stealth Hippopotamus: The Pope gets paid?

I think he works for tips


Just the tip?
 
2013-04-18 04:43:36 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: MaudlinMutantMollusk: The Stealth Hippopotamus: The Pope gets paid?

I think he works for tips

Just the tip?


Well, it's all he'll confess to
 
2013-04-18 04:47:51 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-18 05:00:03 PM
Donations made to the Human Fund
 
2013-04-18 05:20:44 PM

sentex: Donations made to the Human Fund


"Money for People"
 
2013-04-18 05:30:13 PM
This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".
 
2013-04-18 05:37:36 PM
This guy?

www.wallz.eu
 
2013-04-18 05:46:33 PM
Pope Francis has been riding a streak of good deeds that make me hope for the best.  He's pissing off very powerful interests within the Church.

If he dies of a heart attack this year, I want a full autopsy by an independent medical examiner.
 
2013-04-18 05:56:26 PM

dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".


He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.
 
2013-04-18 05:58:02 PM

ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.


Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?
 
2013-04-18 05:58:04 PM

Dixon Cider: So he did the christian thing?

Gotta every now and again....


Giving other people's money away?  That's more of a Democrat thing...

/ducks
 
2013-04-18 05:58:26 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: The Stealth Hippopotamus: The Pope gets paid?

I think he works for tips


Naah, those are Rabbis.
 
2013-04-18 05:59:42 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: The Pope gets paid?


Yeah. Popeing ain't easy, yo!
 
2013-04-18 06:00:16 PM
Good start. Now sell of some of the billions you have tied up in art and real estate and actually make a difference.

/and stop covering up child rape of course
 
2013-04-18 06:00:35 PM

Aarontology: How about you sell off some of the property the Church has instead of f*cking over the workers?


That's what the workers do everyday. The place is rife with corruption...
 
2013-04-18 06:01:46 PM
<Dune> I have to admit it... I like this Pope...  </Dune>
 
2013-04-18 06:02:26 PM
Maybe this guy really is walking the walk
 
2013-04-18 06:04:01 PM
Very nice, but wake me up when he sells off one of his golden scepters or silk robes for charity.
 
2013-04-18 06:04:16 PM
The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.
 
2013-04-18 06:04:51 PM
or rather, the Lord redirecteth.
 
2013-04-18 06:05:53 PM
But did they get their one-year memberships to the Jelly-of-the-Month club?
 
2013-04-18 06:06:17 PM
So screwing over employees for the whims of the executive elite is a good thing farkers?
 
2013-04-18 06:06:53 PM

xxmedium: [i.imgur.com image 400x309]


Goddamnitsomuch.

((FIST))
 
2013-04-18 06:07:12 PM
Its not good to piss off the pope
 
2013-04-18 06:09:17 PM
I hear they got these instead:

ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2013-04-18 06:10:47 PM

xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?


It's not "their" money any more than Congress' salary is "their" money. All that give-your-wealth to the poor shait, you know?
 
2013-04-18 06:11:28 PM

Aarontology: How about you sell off some of the property the Church has instead of f*cking over the workers?


The problem is; almost all of the Church's property is tied up in buildings and art work. There are in the neighborhood of 300 churches, just in Rome. But, most of those churches have stood since at least the 14th century. They all have become, for lack of a better term, sacred cows. The art community would shiat a brick if the Church sold so much as one masterpiece.

/ Those workers are VERY well compensated; pensions, 401k's, and it's not like they get paid minimum wage.
 
2013-04-18 06:12:07 PM
Really?  You decided to screw over the janitor instead of selling off a millennia of loot that has accumulated in the Vatican?

That's just an asshole move.
 
2013-04-18 06:12:42 PM
I wonder how much of this is 'i'm not like the other popes! See!" and this trails off after a few months, and how much of this is genuine.

If it's genuine, I don't think they'll let him make it through the year.
 
2013-04-18 06:13:27 PM

GAT_00: Really?  You decided to screw over the janitor instead of selling off a millennia of loot that has accumulated in the Vatican?

That's just an asshole move.


3/10. 4/10 if you get any bites.
 
2013-04-18 06:14:26 PM
Let me know when that shiatstain gives up all the gold and the castle and the rest of the bullshiat the church has and donates that to the poor.
funny how the head of the jesus fan club lives a very un-jesus like life.
 
2013-04-18 06:14:48 PM

Farking Canuck: Good start. Now sell of some of the billions you have tied up in art and real estate and actually make a difference.

/and stop covering up child rape of course


Most of that "real estate" includes hospitals and schools, asshole.

It's like I said in the last Pope thread: for people who hate the Catholic Church, there is literally NOTHING it can do that will be good enough to appease them.
 
2013-04-18 06:15:23 PM
It wasn't their money. It was a bonus because the church elected a new pope. How many bonuses do you gt when they hire your new boss?!
 
2013-04-18 06:17:22 PM
"In 2005, some 4,000 Vatican employees received a 1,000 euro bonus ($1,300) upon the death of Pope John Paul II, and another 500 euros ($650) upon the election of his successor, Benedict XVI."

Why in the world would you have such a ridiculous thing like that?
It's like automatic pay raises for Congress kind of greed.
 
2013-04-18 06:17:25 PM
That's pretty awesome. Though I could see how it could hurt some people that were counting on that money. But hey. It's what God wanted so they should be okay with it, right?
 
2013-04-18 06:17:48 PM
How about redirecting it all to a charity that counsels victims of sexual abuse?
 
2013-04-18 06:21:14 PM

GAT_00: Really?  You decided to screw over the janitor instead of selling off a millennia of loot that has accumulated in the Vatican?

That's just an asshole move.


That's not at all what he did, and you damn well know it.

tylerdurden217: How about redirecting it all to a charity that counsels victims of sexual abuse?


That would be a fantastic move actually.
 
2013-04-18 06:23:58 PM

PepperFreak: Let me know when that shiatstain gives up all the gold and the castle and the rest of the bullshiat the church has and donates that to the poor.
funny how the head of the jesus fan club lives a very un-jesus like life.


I thought the Catholics were the Mother Mary Fan Club.

/Jesus was second-banana
 
2013-04-18 06:24:18 PM

iheartscotch: Aarontology: How about you sell off some of the property the Church has instead of f*cking over the workers?

The problem is; almost all of the Church's property is tied up in buildings and art work. There are in the neighborhood of 300 churches, just in Rome. But, most of those churches have stood since at least the 14th century. They all have become, for lack of a better term, sacred cows. The art community would shiat a brick if the Church sold so much as one masterpiece.

/ Those workers are VERY well compensated; pensions, 401k's, and it's not like they get paid minimum wage.


Who gives a shiat how many bricks the "art community" shiats?  They are privately held pieces of art, which I'm sure will garner quite the market and dollar figures if they are put up for sale, art community be damned.  If you want to be "equitable" about it you can sell it to a museum, and take those proceeds and hand that out to the poor, I'm sure those millions would go a lot further than whatever was donated from redirecting bonuses.
 
2013-04-18 06:24:31 PM
So, all that extra work for no extra pay. Just leave the chimney on the roof instead of making someone keep moving it around.
 
2013-04-18 06:25:33 PM
The budget of the Holy See, ...Total expenditures for the Holy See in 2011 were 263.7 million euros ($326.4 million) with 248.8 million euros ($308 million) in revenues.

Pope's "personal charity fund:" The Peter's Pence collection, used by the pope for charity and emergency assistance, brought in $69.7 million, up from $67.7 million in 2010, but down from $82.5 million in 2009.

This $9 million is a pretty good signal of where Francis wants the church to go.
 
2013-04-18 06:26:26 PM

xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?


He wrote an order to not pay out of possibly strained funds a bonus, then took from his offices funds and paid charities

though i guess if you look at it, the tithes that filled the funds were someone else's money, how dare he use that to do charitble work
 
2013-04-18 06:27:04 PM

Farking Canuck: Good start. Now sell of some of the billions you have tied up in art and real estate and actually make a difference.

/and stop covering up child rape of course


I wouldn't be surprised if he did that within the next 5 to 10 years
 
2013-04-18 06:28:15 PM

Guuberre: I thought the Catholics were the Mother Mary Fan Club.


*yoink!* Stolen for later abuse. :)
 
2013-04-18 06:28:40 PM

PepperFreak: Let me know when that shiatstain gives up all the gold and the castle and the rest of the bullshiat the church has and donates that to the poor.
funny how the head of the jesus fan club lives a very un-jesus like life.


Have you not heard of how he lived before he got poped?
 
2013-04-18 06:28:53 PM

Capo Del Bandito: I wonder how much of this is 'i'm not like the other popes! See!" and this trails off after a few months, and how much of this is genuine.

If it's genuine, I don't think they'll let him make it through the year.


It'll be interesting to see what happens after his new commission for reforming the Curia begins its work. From what I've heard, most of the guys on the commission are outsiders to Rome. There's going to be some major reform if they get their way.
 
2013-04-18 06:29:36 PM
Wow, a religious figure who's actually read and comprehends what the Bible says. Amazing.

Now, if he should start turning pedophiles over to the authorities I might actually start to respect religion again.
 
2013-04-18 06:31:23 PM
So wait a second.  Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus and your boss says "hey, I am going to do something really good and give away your bonus!"

I think everyone here would be pissed.
 
2013-04-18 06:33:10 PM

BiffDangler: So wait a second.  Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus and your boss says "hey, I am going to do something really good and give away your bonus!"

I think everyone here would be pissed.


It depends on who the employees are. One would argue that clergymen should never feel such entitlement.
 
2013-04-18 06:34:08 PM

Captain Dan: Pope Francis has been riding a streak of good deeds that make me hope for the best. He's pissing off very powerful interests within the Church.

If he dies of a heart attack this year, I want a full autopsy by an independent medical examiner.


Agreed.  I didn't know what to think of him at first, but I'm coming down more and more on the side of really liking this pope.
 
2013-04-18 06:34:16 PM
With the way the new pope is conducting business (you know, actually in line with the tenants of good ol' vow-of-poverty-level catholicism), he'll either be the greatest reformer the church has ever seen, or he'll be dead of a mysterious accident within 2 months..
 
2013-04-18 06:34:57 PM
Matt. 19:21 -  Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, goand sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and comeand follow me.


Takes time to sell what the Church doesn't need to carry out its mission.  Fortunately, Francis doesn't face an arbitrary term limit.  He's not going to reduce the Church's workers to Walmart levels of poverty; that would only increase the Church's workload.
 
2013-04-18 06:35:11 PM

BiffDangler: So wait a second.  Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus and your boss says "hey, I am going to do something really good and give away your bonus!"

I think everyone here would be pissed.


I'd be fine with it, the bonus is just that, same with, hey we can't do the annual company trip to an all inclusive resort in some sunny foriegn land
 
2013-04-18 06:37:28 PM

BiffDangler: Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus


... uh...
 
2013-04-18 06:37:41 PM

BiffDangler: So wait a second.  Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus and your boss says "hey, I am going to do something really good and give away your bonus!"

I think everyone here would be pissed.


First off, nobody is entitled to a bonus, that's why it's a bonus.

Second, THAT'S NOT WHAT HE F*CKING DID.
 
2013-04-18 06:37:43 PM

BiffDangler: So wait a second.  Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus and your boss says "hey, I am going to do something really good and give away your bonus!"

I think everyone here would be pissed.


This is the Church we're talking about. Most of these guys took a vow of poverty.
 
2013-04-18 06:38:11 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: The Stealth Hippopotamus: The Pope gets paid?

I think he works for tips


i thought that was the jewish pope
 
2013-04-18 06:38:18 PM
So if I rtfa correctly, instead of paying the extra special bonus a vatican employee would expect to receive a handful of times during their career, the pope took some money from his personal charity fund, and of all things spent it on charity. Meaning not only did the workers not get a bonus but the same amount got spent on charity as a pre-bonus budget would have allocated.
 
2013-04-18 06:39:11 PM

ArcadianRefugee: I hear they got these instead:

[ecx.images-amazon.com image 300x300]



annnnd we have a winner.

/Golf clap, sir.
//That is one of my all-time favorite threads
 
2013-04-18 06:39:32 PM

BiffDangler: So wait a second.  Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus and your boss says "hey, I am going to do something really good and give away your bonus!"

I think everyone here would be pissed.


Notsureifserious.jpeg
 
2013-04-18 06:41:26 PM

ArcadianRefugee: I hear they got these instead:

[ecx.images-amazon.com image 300x300]


Damn beat me to it.
 
2013-04-18 06:42:11 PM

xxmedium: [i.imgur.com image 400x309]


Book it. DONE.
 
2013-04-18 06:45:36 PM
Yup, glad to see the "Well why doesn't he sell all his stuff!" crap.

Because if he started selling off church property someone would kill him off, he knows this, what he is doing now is probably the best thing he can do.  Slowly changing the church in such a way as to make the change as lasting as possible, rather than something the church elite can bury as soon as he gets knocked off.
 
2013-04-18 06:46:08 PM

mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: Really?  You decided to screw over the janitor instead of selling off a millennia of loot that has accumulated in the Vatican?

That's just an asshole move.

That's not at all what he did, and you damn well know it.


Yes he did.  The Vatican's loot is estimated in the billions.  This is a million dollars and this is the donation he makes?
 
2013-04-18 06:46:19 PM

Theeng: Yup, glad to see the "Well why doesn't he sell all his stuff!" crap.

Because if he started selling off church property someone would kill him off, he knows this, what he is doing now is probably the best thing he can do.  Slowly changing the church in such a way as to make the change as lasting as possible, rather than something the church elite can bury as soon as he gets knocked off.


STOP BRINGING LOGIC INTO THIS!
 
2013-04-18 06:50:23 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-04-18 06:55:10 PM
So, the new Pope's a Thatcherite.  Who knew?
 
2013-04-18 06:55:16 PM

PepperFreak: Let me know when that shiatstain gives up all the gold and the castle and the rest of the bullshiat the church has and donates that to the poor.
funny how the head of the jesus fan club lives a very un-jesus like life.


That's Rome for you. First they crucify him, then they deify him! Now they use him to keep everyone in line.
 
2013-04-18 06:59:25 PM

GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: Really?  You decided to screw over the janitor instead of selling off a millennia of loot that has accumulated in the Vatican?

That's just an asshole move.

That's not at all what he did, and you damn well know it.

Yes he did.  The Vatican's loot is estimated in the billions.  This is a million dollars and this is the donation he makes?


So he shouldn't have made any donation? Who'd he screw over? And who's going to buy the billions of dollars worth of "loot" from the Vatican? You act like he could just put it on Craigslist.
 
2013-04-18 07:06:17 PM
That's a good move, as tiny tokens go.  Now maybe he can also start selling off some of the billions of treasure stored up in the citadel of Jesus, Protector of the Poor and Weak.  And dismantling the sprawling, corrupt Vatican "banking" system.

Then he can get to work on revoking the whole idea of a Vatican "state" that was created by a fascist dictator to buy the church's acquiescence.
 
2013-04-18 07:06:44 PM

Theeng: Yup, glad to see the "Well why doesn't he sell all his stuff!" crap.

Because if he started selling off church property someone would kill him off, he knows this, what he is doing now is probably the best thing he can do.  Slowly changing the church in such a way as to make the change as lasting as possible, rather than something the church elite can bury as soon as he gets knocked off.


I mean, Jesus Christ himself rejected the "sell crap off to help a few poor people now" idea as moronic. Remember that bit about, "the poor will always be with us" when the disciples attacked him for letting Mary rub expensive oils on his feet?

The art has a value beyond the monetary value, and the pope has a responsibility to tend to the church's future. Selling off the church's priceless artifacts for a quick buck now would be crass commercialism of a sort that would have pissed off Jesus to no end, regardless of where the monies would be going. So yeah, sell off treasures from 2000 years of history to make a small dent in poverty now, the effects of which will be gone in 10 years. Really great long term thinking there, not to mention you're depriving future generations the enjoyment of that art, which would wind up on a rich guy's wall somewhere. What was once free for anyone in the public to see would disappear to all but the fabulously wealthy. Yeah, that Jesus guy would have loved THAT.

But yes, the Vatican should totally sell off schools, hospitals, and priceless art to pay for a year's supply of beans. I mean, they just print new Michelangelos every day, right?
 
2013-04-18 07:07:35 PM

mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: Really?  You decided to screw over the janitor instead of selling off a millennia of loot that has accumulated in the Vatican?

That's just an asshole move.

That's not at all what he did, and you damn well know it.

Yes he did.  The Vatican's loot is estimated in the billions.  This is a million dollars and this is the donation he makes?

So he shouldn't have made any donation? Who'd he screw over? And who's going to buy the billions of dollars worth of "loot" from the Vatican? You act like he could just put it on Craigslist.


How about he donates some of his own money instead of other people's?
 
2013-04-18 07:08:36 PM

xantos: So if I rtfa correctly, instead of paying the extra special bonus a vatican employee would expect to receive a handful of times during their career, the pope took some money from his personal charity fund, and of all things spent it on charity. Meaning not only did the workers not get a bonus but the same amount got spent on charity as a pre-bonus budget would have allocated.


Not only that, as well as the pope only spending the charity money he has from his annual charity budget, by paying those thousands of workers less it is reasonable to assume some part of those bonuses would be given away to charity, so if we assume they would have given away on average 2% of it we can account for this policy as:

Vatican workers: -$8.82m
Papal bank: +$9m
Charities: -$180k
 
2013-04-18 07:08:57 PM
It's not like the employees really had time to plan for this bonus.  There wasn't a lot of time between the Pope's decision to retire and the election of the new guy.  They expected the other guy to be Pope for at least another decade.  It was magic money that they weren't expecting that disappeared before they could receive it.  I don't feel at all sorry for the employees, especially if they've already got their "Pope dies and is replaced" bonus budgeted.
 
2013-04-18 07:10:04 PM

xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?


He gave away money that catholics themselves gave away to THEM as charity, and put it to work in an actual charity to help the poor, instead of lining the pockets of church employees. It was already donated money, given freely to use by the church. Man, I hope you were just trolling :)

/Not catholic, likes this pope though
// "lining the pockets" - what a weird phrase
 
2013-04-18 07:10:19 PM

imgod2u: xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?

It's not "their" money any more than Congress' salary is "their" money. All that give-your-wealth to the poor shait, you know?


I think it would be less good if the money was some kind of performance based bonus, but it's not. They didn't do any extra good work, the catholic church didn't do any extra good work, they just elected a new pope. So, all he's doing is taking the 'new pope' money, and giving it to the poor instead of people who don't really need it.
 
2013-04-18 07:12:02 PM

xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?


FTA:  The money will be drawn from the pontiff's personal charity budget "as a sign of the church's attention for the many people who are suffering" from the global economic slowdown, Lombardi said.
 
2013-04-18 07:17:09 PM

GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: Really?  You decided to screw over the janitor instead of selling off a millennia of loot that has accumulated in the Vatican?

That's just an asshole move.

That's not at all what he did, and you damn well know it.

Yes he did.  The Vatican's loot is estimated in the billions.  This is a million dollars and this is the donation he makes?

So he shouldn't have made any donation? Who'd he screw over? And who's going to buy the billions of dollars worth of "loot" from the Vatican? You act like he could just put it on Craigslist.

How about he donates some of his own money instead of other people's?


What do you consider to be "his own money," GAT?
 
2013-04-18 07:17:38 PM
Well, this seems like a step in the right direction, this guy seems a touch better than King Death

/I wonder if the donations goes to traumatized boys
//ohtheironknee.png
///meet the new boss, slightly the same as the old boss
 
2013-04-18 07:18:14 PM
What the hells wrong with this pope? He's all compassionate and shiat! OUTRAGE!
 
2013-04-18 07:18:24 PM
Well someone at the Vatican isn't getting that new pool...
 
2013-04-18 07:18:55 PM

iheartscotch: The art community would shiat a brick if the Church sold so much as one masterpiece.


I doubt it. They might care, a bit, if it went into a private collection, but if it went to a museum nobody would mind much. What's the Getty Museum acquisitions budget these days?
 
2013-04-18 07:22:29 PM
Wait. If the Pope is NOT living in the "luxurious Papal Apartments" ... opting for a guesthouse instead, who will get to live in those apartments?? They will fall into disrepair otherwise, no? Maybe theyʻll rent them out like Lincolnʻs Bedroom??

High end vacation rental??

hmm
 
2013-04-18 07:25:42 PM

ISO15693: xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?

He gave away money that catholics themselves gave away to THEM as charity, and put it to work in an actual charity to help the poor, instead of lining the pockets of church employees. It was already donated money, given freely to use by the church. Man, I hope you were just trolling :)

/Not catholic, likes this pope though
// "lining the pockets" - what a weird phrase


How can you be so sure that someone that sorts mail or cleans the floors at the Vatican is so flush with cash that a bonus like this would just "line their pockets"? And he hasn't given any new money away to charity at all, he has just canceled the traditional bonus to save the vatican money. The money he has given to charity is from his own charity budget - which he would have given away to charity anyway at some point this year, so charities are gaining nothing whatsoever from this move.

I have no problem with him cutting the bonuses, that is up to him and the vatican accounts and whether they feel they can pay it out. What I have issue with is trying to claim:

1) that the pope giving away money that would normally have been given to someone else is the pope being charitable - if I hacked your bank account and sent $2k of it to a charity (ignoring the legal issues) would you could me as being charitable when I am spending your money?
2) that this is good for charities - they are getting money the church already sets aside each year for the pope to give away to charities of his choice. Happening to give away an equal amount of this fixed budget at the same time as cutting the bonuses doesn't mean any more money will be given away to charities this year
 
2013-04-18 07:27:17 PM

Farking Canuck: Good start. Now sell of some of the billions you have tied up in art and real estate and actually make a difference.

/and stop covering up child rape of course


Hey, $9,000,000 is a decent start.  Be happy.
 
2013-04-18 07:28:06 PM
He's starting to step on toes.  My guess is he's gone soon, to be replaced with Pope Business As Usual.
 
2013-04-18 07:29:15 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: The Stealth Hippopotamus: The Pope gets paid?

I think he works for tips


I thought that was the altar boys.
 
2013-04-18 07:30:10 PM

BarkingUnicorn: GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: Really?  You decided to screw over the janitor instead of selling off a millennia of loot that has accumulated in the Vatican?

That's just an asshole move.

That's not at all what he did, and you damn well know it.

Yes he did.  The Vatican's loot is estimated in the billions.  This is a million dollars and this is the donation he makes?

So he shouldn't have made any donation? Who'd he screw over? And who's going to buy the billions of dollars worth of "loot" from the Vatican? You act like he could just put it on Craigslist.

How about he donates some of his own money instead of other people's?

What do you consider to be "his own money," GAT?


His own salary?  The Vatican's funds?  How exactly would you feel if your boss declared that you not only get a bonus, but you'll never see it because he's donating it for you!
 
2013-04-18 07:34:26 PM

scottydoesntknow: Well someone at the Vatican isn't getting that new pool...


First I was all
bubba.org

Then I was all
basementrejects.com

/hot
 
2013-04-18 07:37:18 PM

BarkingUnicorn: What do you consider to be "his own money," GAT?


Don't feed the well known troll.
 
2013-04-18 07:37:24 PM
Francis told journalists a few days after his election that he wanted a "poor church, for the poor," and he has brought a simpler and more sober style to the papacy.

/really? i couldn't tell due to your thousand dollar outfit, your churches worth millions by themselves, and your net worth of the catholic church, which has to be in the billions. But thanks for the 2k. I'm sure the poor will appreciate their cut of 1 dollar.
 
2013-04-18 07:38:16 PM

Bit'O'Gristle: /really? i couldn't tell due to your thousand dollar outfit, your churches worth millions by themselves, and your net worth of the catholic church, which has to be in the billions. But thanks for the 2k. I'm sure the poor will appreciate their cut of 1 dollar.


Not sure if trolling or just ignorant to how reality works.
 
2013-04-18 07:38:59 PM

chuggernaught: He's starting to step on toes.  My guess is he's gone soon, to be replaced with Pope Business As Usual.


John Paul the First who was young and healthy and jogged every day died of a heart attack in his sleep after he said he wanted to reform the Vatican Bank.

Nothing suspicious about that. It was God's will.
 
2013-04-18 07:39:39 PM

GAT_00: How about he donates some of his own money instead of other people's?


FTFA:

"The money will be drawn from the pontiff's personal charity budget "
 
2013-04-18 07:43:40 PM

mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: How about he donates some of his own money instead of other people's?

FTFA:

"The money will be drawn from the pontiff's personal charity budget "


GAT is a well known troll. Don't waste your time.
 
2013-04-18 07:44:04 PM

GAT_00: How about he donates some of his own money instead of other people's?


How much money does Pope Francis have?

GAT_00: The Vatican's funds?


I bet you don't claim your workplace's revenue as your own personal income.
 
2013-04-18 07:51:26 PM

cptjeff: I mean, Jesus Christ himself rejected the "sell crap off to help a few poor people now" idea as moronic. Remember that bit about, "the poor will always be with us" when the disciples attacked him for letting Mary rub expensive oils on his feet?


ALL PRAISE SUPPLY-SIDE JESUS!
s8.postimg.org
 
2013-04-18 07:54:42 PM

xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?


For the record, I misread the headline and didn't realize til now. My bad.
 
2013-04-18 07:55:43 PM
Come on, now. They still get the hot cocoa sampler.
Look at all the brown stuff of their fingers.
 
2013-04-18 08:02:00 PM

Marine1: BiffDangler: So wait a second.  Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus and your boss says "hey, I am going to do something really good and give away your bonus!"

I think everyone here would be pissed.

This is the Church we're talking about. Most of these guys took a vow of poverty.


They all took vows of celibacy as well ... we all know how that worked out.
 
2013-04-18 08:02:41 PM

cptjeff: I mean, Jesus Christ himself rejected the "sell crap off to help a few poor people now" idea as moronic. Remember that bit about, "the poor will always be with us" when the disciples attacked him for letting Mary rub expensive oils on his feet?


KJV Mark 10:21 - Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
 
2013-04-18 08:02:48 PM
Wow...  GAT is really turning up the anti-Catholic rhetoric today.  Did you even read the farking article?  He didn't give away other people's bonuses, he cut the bonuses due to economic strain in Europe, and donated a sizable chunk from the papal charity account.  More than is typically donated in one go, which is why its noticeable or significant.

Second, what the hell 'loot' do you think they have.  Of course it's worth billions... have you been in the Sistine Chapel?  The artwork and artifacts in the chapel and surrounding museum are EASILY worth billions.  Of course, you CAN'T sell that because its more or less ALL priceless artifacts.  Do you think they just have a big storehouse of gold coins they melt down to make new chalices and crosiers all the time?  They USE the farking old, historic stuff that was made in the political heyday of the church.  And real estate?  do you think there are vast tracts of land sitting empty and unused?  If he sells that off to 'help the poor' he'd also be firing the Vatican staff because that's where they live and work!  And the churches?  The diocese (not the vatican) owns those (a diocese has separate finances and no financial connection to the Vatican).  The building on the land is almost always owned by the parish itself and paid by parishioners.  Even if the Pope wanted to, he doesn't have ANY authority to sell those lands OR buildings.  And the stuff in them (the gold and artwork) is almost always gold plating or gold leaf, not solid gold, and is almost always either an artifact, or donated directly by a wealthy parishioner (kind of like when Joseph of Arimathea donated a rather expensive tomb (hewn out of solid rock and never used) and burial supplies, or when one of the servants anointed Jesus' feet with crazy expensive oil (regardless of whether you believe in the stories, those are Gospel stories that are part of the background of the Church).

Also Vatican accounts typically DON'T come from individuals donating to the church.  If I donate to the church it goes to my Parish for upkeep and running the joint, as well as an amount to charity as decided by the parish finance committee, and transparently communicated on a regular basis.  A small amount goes to the diocese for running of diocesan offices, and a special collection goes to the Bishop's charity campaign or other special campaigns.  Vatican funds come mainly from investments, and are handled primarily through the Kingdom of the Vatican,  not the Holy See.  Again, a legacy of the political glory days of the church when the Vatican was a large and wealthy Kingdom.  You could make the argument that  those assets are liquidated and donated, but what does liquidating many millions of investment holdings do to the local, European, and world economies besides drive the markets down?  Also, it would severely restrict the Church's ability to function in terms of communication, living, and charity.  If you drain a 62 million euro charity account in one go it's gone.  If you manage it generously it provides charity for years to come.

Oh, and the vow of poverty... the ONLY ones in the church who take those are religious.  That means people who belong to a specific religious order, such as the Jesuits, Franciscans, Capuchins, Redemptorists, Oblates, Sisters of Mercy, etc. etc. etc., who require one.  A priest, bishop, cardinal, and the Pope do not have one (except Francis because he is Jesuit, he is the exception not the rule).

But don't let facts get in the way of your hate.  We couldn't have that on Fark.
 
2013-04-18 08:04:30 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: cptjeff: I mean, Jesus Christ himself rejected the "sell crap off to help a few poor people now" idea as moronic. Remember that bit about, "the poor will always be with us" when the disciples attacked him for letting Mary rub expensive oils on his feet?

ALL PRAISE SUPPLY-SIDE JESUS!
[s8.postimg.org image 526x426]


Swing! and a miss.

Seriously, Jesus tells his disciples to shut it when they suggest that they should have sold the oil for funds to give to the poor, in no uncertain terms, the message being that the lady (I got mixed up, it's just some random person, not Mary Magdalene) was doing a kindness, and that that shouldn't be criticized because of the opportunity cost. There will always be poor people, and eschewing other good things is moronic and unproductive.

Keeping priceless art freely accessible to the public, and from the Church's POV, spiritually inspire people, is a good, worthy of protecting in its own right. You don't rob Peter to pay Paul, to use the cliche.
 
2013-04-18 08:06:25 PM

foxy_canuck: But don't let facts get in the way of your hate. We couldn't have that on Fark.


You're right. We shouldn't ask them to liquidate some of their staggering wealth to help the poor. It is better to ask people who can barely make ends meet to make donations!

History has shown they don't practice what they preach ... they also preach that molesting children is wrong.
 
2013-04-18 08:07:01 PM

mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: How about he donates some of his own money instead of other people's?

FTFA:

"The money will be drawn from the pontiff's personal charity budget "


And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?
 
2013-04-18 08:08:09 PM

Invisible Pedestrian: cptjeff: I mean, Jesus Christ himself rejected the "sell crap off to help a few poor people now" idea as moronic. Remember that bit about, "the poor will always be with us" when the disciples attacked him for letting Mary rub expensive oils on his feet?

KJV Mark 10:21 - Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.


Matthew 26:6-13

6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,
7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.
8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?
9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.
10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.
11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.
13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Jesus is more explicit about telling the disciples to shut it in some other versions, but KJV to match against KJV.
 
2013-04-18 08:09:19 PM
So we're going for 2013 as another "Year of Three Popes?" I'll take "mysterious poison," the "other" papal "throne," and one of the preferitti.

Here's an idea: When a Pope dies, why do they insist on beating him with a silver hammer? "Hey, Pope! You alive int here?!" [Bangs hammer on Pope's forehead] "You alive?!" [Bang] "He not there. Get his ring."
 
2013-04-18 08:12:47 PM
Ddi they change the article or something? Because all I'm reading on that link is that the pope has cancelled 'new pope' bonuses to vatican workers because the vatican posted a deficit and they can't afford it.
 
2013-04-18 08:13:22 PM

GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?


Read the f*cking article.
 
2013-04-18 08:14:33 PM

mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?

Read the f*cking article.


You done got trolled son.

I'll educate every threat this guy posts in, even if takes me years and years...
 
2013-04-18 08:15:35 PM

cptjeff: Matthew 26:6-13


So you've successfully demonstrated how self-contradictory the bible is*. Was there some other point you were trying to get to?

*already obvious to anyone who's actually read the bible
 
2013-04-18 08:15:47 PM

GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?


In some threads you make a lucid, reasonable point.

This is not one of those threads.
 
2013-04-18 08:16:41 PM

Comic Book Guy: iheartscotch: Aarontology: How about you sell off some of the property the Church has instead of f*cking over the workers?

The problem is; almost all of the Church's property is tied up in buildings and art work. There are in the neighborhood of 300 churches, just in Rome. But, most of those churches have stood since at least the 14th century. They all have become, for lack of a better term, sacred cows. The art community would shiat a brick if the Church sold so much as one masterpiece.

/ Those workers are VERY well compensated; pensions, 401k's, and it's not like they get paid minimum wage.

Who gives a shiat how many bricks the "art community" shiats?  They are privately held pieces of art, which I'm sure will garner quite the market and dollar figures if they are put up for sale, art community be damned.  If you want to be "equitable" about it you can sell it to a museum, and take those proceeds and hand that out to the poor, I'm sure those millions would go a lot further than whatever was donated from redirecting bonuses.


The church's art was created to inspire awe and contemplation of God, not to generate wealth. It would be going against the purpose of the artists and those who commissioned the art or donated it to the church to sell it into someone's private collection, someone who might not even be a Christian and who might not display it. If someone has the money to buy that art, they should instead donate that money to charity. If the would-be buyer isn't someone who would do that, well that's the problem with selling it and reducing it to a unit of commerce.
 
2013-04-18 08:17:11 PM

Capo Del Bandito: You done got trolled son.

I'll educate every threat this guy posts in, even if takes me years and years...


I thought that too for a while, but 'm pretty sure he's a True Believer.
 
2013-04-18 08:19:31 PM

GoldSpider: I thought that too for a while, but 'm pretty sure he's a True Believer.


In what exactly?

/I'm curious if the strawman you're about to build will pass code
 
2013-04-18 08:19:57 PM

GoldSpider: I thought that too for a while, but 'm pretty sure he's a True Believer.


In a world of information and cynicism, I doubt that true believers exist unless they're truly bugfark crazy like the Westboro folks.

And I don't think those types know how to work a keyboard.
 
2013-04-18 08:20:48 PM
I'm a lapsed Catholic but I've always wondered about the logic of "sell the Vatican, feed the poor." Who has the money to buy the Vatican? And if they do, then why aren't they feeding the poor instead of buying art?
 
2013-04-18 08:23:59 PM

Farking Canuck: In what exactly?


In reflexively hating everything remotely connected to conservative ideology.
 
2013-04-18 08:25:55 PM

GAT_00: BarkingUnicorn: GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: Really?  You decided to screw over the janitor instead of selling off a millennia of loot that has accumulated in the Vatican?

That's just an asshole move.

That's not at all what he did, and you damn well know it.

Yes he did.  The Vatican's loot is estimated in the billions.  This is a million dollars and this is the donation he makes?

So he shouldn't have made any donation? Who'd he screw over? And who's going to buy the billions of dollars worth of "loot" from the Vatican? You act like he could just put it on Craigslist.

How about he donates some of his own money instead of other people's?

What do you consider to be "his own money," GAT?

His own salary?  The Vatican's funds?  How exactly would you feel if your boss declared that you not only get a bonus, but you'll never see it because he's donating it for you!


The Pope gets no salary.  He is spending the Vatican's funds.

I would feel conflicted if my life's purpose and job were to help the poor and my boss said he was helping the poor instead of helping me with a bit of money I really didn't need.  "To stop suffering, stop greediness," as the Buddha said.
 
2013-04-18 08:26:35 PM

GoldSpider: Farking Canuck: In what exactly?

In reflexively hating everything remotely connected to conservative ideology.


I'm cynical, i need proof those types of humans exist.
 
2013-04-18 08:30:10 PM

Capo Del Bandito: BarkingUnicorn: What do you consider to be "his own money," GAT?

Don't feed the well known troll.


GAT does not troll me.

"If your happiness depends on what somebody else does, I guess you do have a problem." Richard Bach.

Yes, I do have that problem occasionally.  But not with GAT.
 
2013-04-18 08:38:58 PM

GoldSpider: Farking Canuck: In what exactly?

In reflexively hating everything remotely connected to conservative ideology.


I'll allow it.

Lucky there are no conservatives that do that the other way.
 
2013-04-18 08:39:10 PM

foxy_canuck: Wow...  GAT is really turning up the anti-Catholic rhetoric today.  Did you even read the farking article?  He didn't give away other people's bonuses, he cut the bonuses due to economic strain in Europe, and donated a sizable chunk from the papal charity account.  More than is typically donated in one go, which is why its noticeable or significant.

Second, what the hell 'loot' do you think they have.  Of course it's worth billions... have you been in the Sistine Chapel?  The artwork and artifacts in the chapel and surrounding museum are EASILY worth billions.  Of course, you CAN'T sell that because its more or less ALL priceless artifacts.  Do you think they just have a big storehouse of gold coins they melt down to make new chalices and crosiers all the time?  They USE the farking old, historic stuff that was made in the political heyday of the church.  And real estate?  do you think there are vast tracts of land sitting empty and unused?  If he sells that off to 'help the poor' he'd also be firing the Vatican staff because that's where they live and work!  And the churches?  The diocese (not the vatican) owns those (a diocese has separate finances and no financial connection to the Vatican).  The building on the land is almost always owned by the parish itself and paid by parishioners.  Even if the Pope wanted to, he doesn't have ANY authority to sell those lands OR buildings.  And the stuff in them (the gold and artwork) is almost always gold plating or gold leaf, not solid gold, and is almost always either an artifact, or donated directly by a wealthy parishioner (kind of like when Joseph of Arimathea donated a rather expensive tomb (hewn out of solid rock and never used) and burial supplies, or when one of the servants anointed Jesus' feet with crazy expensive oil (regardless of whether you believe in the stories, those are Gospel stories that are part of the background of the Church).

Also Vatican accounts typically DON'T come from individuals donating to t ...


This article explains where the Vatican's money comes from and where it goes.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202831.htm

Its revenues included 49 million euros ($60.6 million) from the Vatican bank -- which donates to the pope profits from its investments -- as well as contributions from dioceses and religious orders, and returns from the Holy See's financial investments.

Contributions from dioceses (from parishioner collections) amounted to just $32 million in 2011, up from $27 million in 2010 and $31.5 million in 2009.

The Peter's Pence collection, used by the pope for charity and emergency assistance, brought in $69.7 million, up from $67.7 million in 2010, but down from $82.5 million in 2009.

The Peter's Pence collection is an annual fundraiser from parishioners, much like the March of Dimes telethon.

Looks like the majority of the Vatican's money comes from parishioners.
 
2013-04-18 08:44:07 PM

foxy_canuck: Wow...  GAT is really turning up the anti-Catholic rhetoric today.  Did you even read the farking article?  He didn't give away other people's bonuses, he cut the bonuses due to economic strain in Europe, and donated a sizable chunk from the papal charity account.  More than is typically donated in one go, which is why its noticeable or significant.

Second, what the hell 'loot' do you think they have.  Of course it's worth billions... have you been in the Sistine Chapel?  The artwork and artifacts in the chapel and surrounding museum are EASILY worth billions.  Of course, you CAN'T sell that because its more or less ALL priceless artifacts.  Do you think they just have a big storehouse of gold coins they melt down to make new chalices and crosiers all the time?  They USE the farking old, historic stuff that was made in the political heyday of the church.  And real estate?  do you think there are vast tracts of land sitting empty and unused?  If he sells that off to 'help the poor' he'd also be firing the Vatican staff because that's where they live and work!  And the churches?  The diocese (not the vatican) owns those (a diocese has separate finances and no financial connection to the Vatican).  The building on the land is almost always owned by the parish itself and paid by parishioners.  Even if the Pope wanted to, he doesn't have ANY authority to sell those lands OR buildings.  And the stuff in them (the gold and artwork) is almost always gold plating or gold leaf, not solid gold, and is almost always either an artifact, or donated directly by a wealthy parishioner (kind of like when Joseph of Arimathea donated a rather expensive tomb (hewn out of solid rock and never used) and burial supplies, or when one of the servants anointed Jesus' feet with crazy expensive oil (regardless of whether you believe in the stories, those are Gospel stories that are part of the background of the Church).

Also Vatican accounts typically DON'T come from individuals donating to t ...


I think they are referring to the wealth confiscated during the inquisition. Perhaps the Jew gold the Nazi's stole during WW2.
 
2013-04-18 08:46:07 PM
He broke a tradition, not a guarantee.  And it's a tradition that the employees there have likely experienced a whopping 3-5 times in their lifetimes.  As long as it's charities where the money helps the needy (i.e. not the United Way) I like this move.
 
2013-04-18 08:48:29 PM
Invisible Pedestrian
You missed the point of that story.  It's not that everyone should sell everything and give to the poor.  It's that the rich young man was arrogant enough to claim he followed all the laws all the time, and missed the point that he wasn't actually following God, or willing to sacrifice his life of comfort to do so.

Farking Canuck
Who the fark are you talking about?  What 'they'?  There are over a billion Catholics, forming hundreds of thousands of Parishes, under the guidance of thousands of dioceses, who report to hundreds of Cardinals, theologically overseen by the Holy See.  There are many millions of Catholics around the world who work very hard and sacrifice very much to practice what they preach.  The VAST majority of priests are good people who have had no part in the molestation scandals and condemn the actions of those involved.  Some of the bishops and cardinals involved in coverups  haveface the rule of local law, and others are under canonical trial to be defrocked, same goes for many of the priests.  You would be hard pressed to find a Catholic diocese in the western world now that doesn't take child protection VERY seriously.  The diocese is the local unit that makes those sorts of policies for their priests, and the Vatican has directed ALL of the bishops to put policies in place.  Many of our diocese in Canada have been at the leading edge in terms of protecting the vulnerable, having strict policies and oversight in place for over a decade, well before many other organizations and before it was culturally required.  Your own diocese (diocese of Toronto) has a  very comprehensive screening program.  Is it perfect?  No.  There have been a few priests in Ontario charged.  Two were convicted by the civil authorities, one was investigated by the police and charges dropped, and is under investigation again many years later, and another has been stripped of duties and is undergoing investigation.  All of those occurred before child protection was recognized as a necessity.  Does that mean 'Catholics don't practice what they preach'?  Also no... it means power draws good and bad, and that evil people are in the Church too.  Some of them rise to power.  We expect it.  It doesn't make the Church as a whole evil (unless I get to say you are a megalomaniac concentrating power and wealth and raping the environment just like Harper because you are Canadian... if you accept being painted with that brush them I guess at least you're consistent.).
 
2013-04-18 08:55:56 PM

foxy_canuck: Invisible Pedestrian
You missed the point of that story.  It's not that everyone should sell everything and give to the poor.  It's that the rich young man was arrogant enough to claim he followed all the laws all the time, and missed the point that he wasn't actually following God, or willing to sacrifice his life of comfort to do so.


The story has multiple points including, "Put your money  where your mouth is."  Jesus called upon some of the Apostles to abandon their livelihoods and become "fishers of men."
 
2013-04-18 08:57:23 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Jesus called upon some of the Apostles to abandon their livelihoods and become "fishers of men."


Looked at from a skewed perspective, that could have... interesting... meanings.
 
2013-04-18 08:59:18 PM

ladyfortuna: BarkingUnicorn: Jesus called upon some of the Apostles to abandon their livelihoods and become "fishers of men."

Looked at from a skewed perspective, that could have... interesting... meanings.


"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd." Tom Lehrer.
 
2013-04-18 09:01:33 PM

Feral_and_Preposterous: xxmedium: [i.imgur.com image 400x309]

Goddamnitsomuch.

((FIST))


What can I say? I'm a fan of low hanging fruit.

/they make such delicious jams and jellies
//you'll get the next one
 
2013-04-18 09:04:59 PM

foxy_canuck: Farking Canuck
Who the fark are you talking about? What 'they'? There are over a billion Cath

olics, [blah blah blah ...]

I am talking about an organization that still does not cooperate with the police in tracking down all the pedophiles that they have intentionally hidden within their ranks.

I am talking about the millions of people who still financially support this pedophile protection society. Implicitly giving approval to the systematic protection of those that victimize children.

When the catholic church opens all their records to the police of every jurisdiction, cooperate fully with the police (like every legitimate organization must), cleans house of every corrupt member, acknowledges and pays restitution to every victim (not just the ones they couldn't sweep under the rug) then you can start to consider them something other than a criminal organization.

Until this day (which will never come) they are an organization that got away with victimizing the most vulnerable members of our society.

The test of the morality of a society is what it does for its children.
~Dietrich Bonhoeffer

"...the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life; the sick, the needy and the handicapped. " ~ Last Speech of Hubert H. Humphrey

"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members."
~ Mahatma Ghandi

"Any society, any nation, is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members -- the last, the least, the littlest."
~Cardinal Roger Mahony, In a 1998 letter, Creating a Culture of Life


The catholic church fails these tests miserably.
 
2013-04-18 09:05:31 PM

BarkingUnicorn: foxy_canuck: Invisible Pedestrian
You missed the point of that story.  It's not that everyone should sell everything and give to the poor.  It's that the rich young man was arrogant enough to claim he followed all the laws all the time, and missed the point that he wasn't actually following God, or willing to sacrifice his life of comfort to do so.

The story has multiple points including, "Put your money  where your mouth is."  Jesus called upon some of the Apostles to abandon their livelihoods and become "fishers of men."


So he's trolling?
 
2013-04-18 09:06:30 PM
The money was just resting in my account
 
2013-04-18 09:08:11 PM

Captain Dan: Pope Francis has been riding a streak of good deeds that make me hope for the best.  He's pissing off very powerful interests within the Church.

If he dies of a heart attack this year, I want a full autopsy by an independent medical examiner.


The next Dan Brown novel plot right there

//Along with Robert Langdon banging the Pope's hot niece
 
2013-04-18 09:08:39 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-04-18 09:09:55 PM

xria: ISO15693: xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?

He gave away money that catholics themselves gave away to THEM as charity, and put it to work in an actual charity to help the poor, instead of lining the pockets of church employees. It was already donated money, given freely to use by the church. Man, I hope you were just trolling :)

/Not catholic, likes this pope though
// "lining the pockets" - what a weird phrase

How can you be so sure that someone that sorts mail or cleans the floors at the Vatican is so flush with cash that a bonus like this would just "line their pockets"? And he hasn't given any new money away to charity at all, he has just canceled the traditional bonus to save the vatican money. The money he has given to charity is from his own charity budget - which he would have given away to charity anyway at some point this year, so charities are gaining nothing whatsoever from this move.

I have no problem with him cutting the bonuses, that is up to him and the vatican accounts and whether they feel they can pay it out. What I have issue with is trying to claim:

1) that the pope giving away money that would normally have been given to someone else is the pope being charitable - if I hacked your bank account and sent $2k of it to a charity (ignoring the legal issues) would you could me as being charitable when I am spending your money?


Well, the LDS Church avoids this sort of problem, because the tithing/donation slips have categories you can have donations directed to, otherwise it's just "to be used at the discretion of the church" - I assume that Catholics have the same sort of thing, and therefore it would be the pope's responsibility to decide where the money goes, and he would have just been doing his job, so the "normally have been given to someone else " thing wouldn't mean much. And I am 100% certain that he didn't direct payroll from service providers/workers.
 
2013-04-18 09:17:52 PM
The clergy aren't the employees here, are they?  I figured the article was talking about the Vatican employees, who are actually employed by the Vatican (e.g. city workers. security, postal services, janitors, kitchen staffs, IT support, etc.)
 
2013-04-18 09:22:02 PM

mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?

Read the f*cking article.


Which would return again to my point of selling off some of the millenia of loot.
 
2013-04-18 09:22:32 PM
So wait, why would they receive the bonus for when the Pope dies? The Pope didn't die. He resigned.

And why would you get a bonus when any pope dies? Like in general? That just seems really morbid.
 
2013-04-18 09:34:04 PM

GAT_00: Which would return again to my point of selling off some of the millenia of loot.


Which didn't many any sense the first time you stated it.
 
2013-04-18 09:34:08 PM

BravadoGT: The clergy aren't the employees here, are they?  I figured the article was talking about the Vatican employees, who are actually employed by the Vatican (e.g. city workers. security, postal services, janitors, kitchen staffs, IT support, etc.)


TFA says it includes religious and lay employees of "the Vatican," which properly refers to the Vatican City State.  But the term is often misapplied to the Holy See, the governing organization of the Church.  It's like confusing Washington, DC, with the U. S. government organizations based there.
 
2013-04-18 09:46:38 PM

ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.


This.

He reverses diplomatic immunity for the pedophiles, and they're back to neutral in my book.

Which is a big step up from Lawful Evil.
 
2013-04-18 09:47:02 PM
Tax the churches. If they want to play in the political arena, which they have been doing more and more each year, they need to buy a ticket like the rest of us.
 
2013-04-18 09:48:56 PM

GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?

Read the f*cking article.

Which would return again to my point of selling off some of the millenia of loot.


It would make perfect sense to sell off the Smithsonian Institute's assets, too.  Much of them are never seen by the public, and the place does nothing to help the poor.  9/11 Memorial? Sell the exhibits and shelter the homeless in it.

My point is that the Church keeps all of this stuff because its constituents want it to.
 
2013-04-18 09:51:48 PM
ReverendJynxed

Golf clap... very nicely played!

FarkingCanuck

So basically, until the church is perfect, you have no use for them.  Well I guess you are an environment destroying, slavery supporting, native population decimating child abuse supporter yourself because you support a government that has done all those things and more, and hasn't come even close to apologizing and making restitutions for all of it.  Heck, if you are going to judge the day to day actions of millions of people based on a small number of their leaders I guess we can hang the crimes of the British  and French empires on your head too right?  That makes as much sense as what you're saying.  Or how about your own family.  Statiscally odds are quite reasonable that someone in your extended family is a pedophile who has harmed a child (30 - 50% of adults in the states were likely sexually abused, 1/3 by family, almost 2/3 close aquaintance of the family.  I guess unless your family has hunted down, outed and helped prosecute that person, you are guilty of protecting a sexual predator by association (unless you've disowned your family over it).  Yes, this is ridiculous, and faulty logic... same stream of logic you are spewing.  At least I can see the depth of your hate and put you in the same category of derp as GAT_00.
 
2013-04-18 09:53:42 PM

Solid Muldoon: Tax the churches. If they want to play in the political arena, which they have been doing more and more each year, they need to buy a ticket like the rest of us.


Yes.  But let them decide which way they want to go.  If they want to be legitimate social justice organizations, then they get to be exempt.  If they want to directly advocate political positions (for/against, contribute to PACs, etc) then they need to pay up just like anyone else.
 
2013-04-18 09:53:45 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: That's not going to be very popeular with the workers


You mean popeular with the masses.
 
2013-04-18 09:55:38 PM

xria: ladyfortuna: dugitman: This guy seems determined to work himself into having a "heart attack".

He's actually making me start to semi-kinda-maybe-sorta respect the church, or at least part of it. We'll see where he goes I guess.

Really? He writes an order to give away other peoples money to charity and that gets him respect?


Since when is a bonus to employees "other people's money" to the employer?
 
2013-04-18 09:58:01 PM

lamecomedian: Farking Canuck: Good start. Now sell of some of the billions you have tied up in art and real estate and actually make a difference.

/and stop covering up child rape of course

Most of that "real estate" includes hospitals and schools, asshole.

It's like I said in the last Pope thread: for people who hate the Catholic Church, there is literally NOTHING it can do that will be good enough to appease them.


^^^^THIS
 
2013-04-18 10:00:33 PM

BiffDangler: So wait a second.  Imagine if you are entitled to a bonus and your boss says "hey, I am going to do something really good and give away your bonus!"

I think everyone here would be pissed.


If you're entitled to it =/= a bonus.
 
2013-04-18 10:02:43 PM
So, Your Holiness, shall we prepare the "new Pope" bonus checks for the minions?

No.

But, YH, it's traditional. They will be upset.

No, times are hard.

Times are hard for the minions, too, YH.

No. We can't afford it. That's final.

OK, at least we will save a bundle. There's that.

No again, Father, we are going to give it away to charities of my choice.

That makes no sense, YH.

I'm infallible. Also, you're fired.
 
2013-04-18 10:04:09 PM

Scaevola: lamecomedian: Farking Canuck: Good start. Now sell of some of the billions you have tied up in art and real estate and actually make a difference.

/and stop covering up child rape of course

Most of that "real estate" includes hospitals and schools, asshole.

It's like I said in the last Pope thread: for people who hate the Catholic Church, there is literally NOTHING it can do that will be good enough to appease them.

^^^^THIS


These last couple weeks have been the first time in over a decade I haven't muttered "farking snake oil salesmen" when I hear something about the church... Grew up catholic and now and atheist but it's nice to see someone finally making some kind of attempt at aligning their actions with their morality over there.
 
2013-04-18 10:04:27 PM

ReverendJynxed: BarkingUnicorn: foxy_canuck: Invisible Pedestrian
You missed the point of that story.  It's not that everyone should sell everything and give to the poor.  It's that the rich young man was arrogant enough to claim he followed all the laws all the time, and missed the point that he wasn't actually following God, or willing to sacrifice his life of comfort to do so.

The story has multiple points including, "Put your money  where your mouth is."  Jesus called upon some of the Apostles to abandon their livelihoods and become "fishers of men."

So he's trolling?


Jesus was one of the greatest trolls of all time.  Billions of bites, counting both believers and non-believers who were provoked to strong reactions by his words.

Like everything else, trolling is what you make of it.
 
2013-04-18 10:11:29 PM

cptjeff: depriving future generations the enjoyment of that art


First, treasures in the Vatican -- even if open to the public -- are not readily accessible to most people in the world, so most people aren't losing anything even if those treasures are destroyed. There's a good argument to be made that distributing such treasures, even if done outside the church's supervision, would increase the number of people that get to enjoy them both now and in the future.

Second, I think you're confusing "sell" with "burn". No one is suggesting that the church should melt down all its precious metals and sell them on the commodities market. But the church could take their accumulated wealth and trade it to someone who does not have a stated mission of charity and service, so that the art would continue to exist -- they could even setup a deal that required public display from time to time -- and the church could use the related wealth for their primary mission rather than simply hoarding it.
 
2013-04-18 10:11:30 PM

BarkingUnicorn: GAT_00: mitchcumstein1: GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?

Read the f*cking article.

Which would return again to my point of selling off some of the millenia of loot.

It would make perfect sense to sell off the Smithsonian Institute's assets, too.  Much of them are never seen by the public, and the place does nothing to help the poor.  9/11 Memorial? Sell the exhibits and shelter the homeless in it.

My point is that the Church keeps all of this stuff because its constituents want it to.


The constituents of the Catholic Church are arguably all the people on Earth, as they are representing God, so they are not because I'm saying they should.

And that would be a better use for the 9/11 memorial than the insulting tourist trap it is.

Also, I can brag about being to a Smithsonian asset that very few people have been to: an island in the Panama Canal.
 
2013-04-18 10:12:20 PM

BarkingUnicorn: It would make perfect sense to sell off the Smithsonian Institute's assets, too.


It would if charity was one of the primary goals of the institute.
 
2013-04-18 10:14:22 PM

Aarontology: How about you sell off some of the property the Church has instead of f*cking over the workers?


I wonder how many workers, counting on those bonuses, ended up in financial difficulties as a result of the new Pope's ersatz "charity?"
 
2013-04-18 10:20:12 PM

Scaevola: MaudlinMutantMollusk: That's not going to be very popeular with the workers

You mean popeular with the masses.


Well, at least it wasn't a papal smear
 
2013-04-18 10:20:30 PM

iheartscotch: Aarontology: How about you sell off some of the property the Church has instead of f*cking over the workers?

The problem is; almost all of the Church's property is tied up in buildings and art work. There are in the neighborhood of 300 churches, just in Rome. But, most of those churches have stood since at least the 14th century. They all have become, for lack of a better term, sacred cows. The art community would shiat a brick if the Church sold so much as one masterpiece.

/ Those workers are VERY well compensated; pensions, 401k's, and it's not like they get paid minimum wage.


As an American, visiting churches in Italy is a real eye opening experience.

One can easily walk down a rather modern street almost anywhere there, and the church on that block has been standing before any European step foot in the Americas.
 
2013-04-18 10:20:53 PM

lamecomedian: It's like I said in the last Pope thread: for people who hate the Catholic Church, there is literally NOTHING it can do that will be good enough to appease them.


That's a valid point. And I'm sure there are plenty of haters here.

But it's not unreasonable to point out that accumulation of wealth is in conflict with the stated goals of the organization. It's not a conflict that necessarily can or even need be fully resolved, but it's a conflict that should be regularly and transparently addressed by those running the organization.
 
2013-04-18 10:27:08 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Jesus was one of the greatest trolls of all time.  Billions of bites, counting both believers and non-believers who were provoked to strong reactions by his words.


2.bp.blogspot.com
Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are.Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"


biblicalstudent.files.wordpress.com
"Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar's," they replied.


www.secretsofthefed.com
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
 
2013-04-18 10:30:54 PM
This is impossible! No religious person has ever done anything good eve. EVER!
 
2013-04-18 10:33:02 PM

profplump: BarkingUnicorn: It would make perfect sense to sell off the Smithsonian Institute's assets, too.

It would if charity was one of the primary goals of the institute.


I guess it depends on your definition of "charity." The SI supports scientists in return for their work, just as the Church supports its workers. The SI also gives away knowledge without getting something in return (30 million visitors per year pay no admission fee). So does the Church.
 
2013-04-18 10:34:55 PM

Capo Del Bandito: GAT is a well known troll. Don't waste your time.


Unfortunately, I'm afraid he's more like one of the politicians who starts drinking his own Flavor Aid; he appears to actually have deluded himself into believing the tripe he spouts.
 
2013-04-18 10:37:01 PM

GAT_00: And so why exactly could the bonuses not be paid and that money be donated anyway?


Because, unlike the Federal Reserve, the Vatican doesn't get to fire up the presses when it wants things it can't afford.
 
2013-04-18 10:42:56 PM

impaler: BarkingUnicorn: Jesus was one of the greatest trolls of all time.  Billions of bites, counting both believers and non-believers who were provoked to strong reactions by his words.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 300x266]
Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are.Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"


[biblicalstudent.files.wordpress.com image 400x300]
"Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar's," they replied.


[www.secretsofthefed.com image 235x214]
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."


He was good at the pown, too. But powning is not trolling.   The Sermon on the Mount is my favorite example.
 
2013-04-18 10:43:55 PM

Solid Muldoon: Tax the churches. If they want to play in the political arena, which they have been doing more and more each year, they need to buy a ticket like the rest of us.


lolwut.jpg

The church has been getting continuously less involved in the political arena for the past 1000 years.
 
2013-04-18 10:46:47 PM
Did everyone else read the same article I did? I didn't see where any money was redirected to charity, is there more to the story than I'm reading.
 
2013-04-18 11:03:44 PM
(I'mokwiththis.jpg)


And good on him for doing it.
 
2013-04-18 11:24:26 PM

great_tigers: This is impossible! No religious person has ever done anything good eve. EVER!


Some of the ones in the last two thousand years have been copying the work of earlier students, and passing it off as their own.
 
2013-04-19 12:13:52 AM

foxy_canuck: Wow...  GAT is really turning up the anti-Catholic rhetoric today.  Did you even read the farking article?  He didn't give away other people's bonuses, he cut the bonuses due to economic strain in Europe, and donated a sizable chunk from the papal charity account.  More than is typically donated in one go, which is why its noticeable or significant.

Second, what the hell 'loot' do you think they have.  Of course it's worth billions... have you been in the Sistine Chapel?  The artwork and artifacts in the chapel and surrounding museum are EASILY worth billions.  Of course, you CAN'T sell that because its more or less ALL priceless artifacts.  Do you think they just have a big storehouse of gold coins they melt down to make new chalices and crosiers all the time?  They USE the farking old, historic stuff that was made in the political heyday of the church.  And real estate?  do you think there are vast tracts of land sitting empty and unused?  If he sells that off to 'help the poor' he'd also be firing the Vatican staff because that's where they live and work!  And the churches?  The diocese (not the vatican) owns those (a diocese has separate finances and no financial connection to the Vatican).  The building on the land is almost always owned by the parish itself and paid by parishioners.  Even if the Pope wanted to, he doesn't have ANY authority to sell those lands OR buildings.  And the stuff in them (the gold and artwork) is almost always gold plating or gold leaf, not solid gold, and is almost always either an artifact, or donated directly by a wealthy parishioner (kind of like when Joseph of Arimathea donated a rather expensive tomb (hewn out of solid rock and never used) and burial supplies, or when one of the servants anointed Jesus' feet with crazy expensive oil (regardless of whether you believe in the stories, those are Gospel stories that are part of the background of the Church).

Also Vatican accounts typically DON'T come from individuals donating to t ...


VERY well said.

/good on ya, Pope Francis
//I'm probably not coming back, but so far I'm liking what you're doing to the place
 
2013-04-19 01:22:56 AM

ISO15693: Well, the LDS Church avoids this sort of problem, because the tithing/donation slips have categories you can have donations directed to, otherwise it's just "to be used at the discretion of the church" - I assume that Catholics have the same sort of thing, and therefore it would be the pope's responsibility to decide wher ...


Actually the latest reprint makes it always used at the discretion of the church, even if you designate it to specific categories.
 
2013-04-19 01:24:58 AM

Captain Dan: Solid Muldoon: Tax the churches. If they want to play in the political arena, which they have been doing more and more each year, they need to buy a ticket like the rest of us.

lolwut.jpg

The church has been getting continuously less involved in the political arena for the past 1000 years.


You are correct, sir.  I should have been more specific. I know the churches used to buy and sell Kings and countries. It went out of fashion. But it is coming back.

In my life time, I have seen the churches in America go from talking about morals and sin to talking about "If you vote for this man you will burn in hell." And spending the tax exempt money they get to buy political ads on TV.

Tax them.
 
2013-04-19 02:05:14 AM

BarkingUnicorn: ReverendJynxed: BarkingUnicorn: foxy_canuck: Invisible Pedestrian
You missed the point of that story.  It's not that everyone should sell everything and give to the poor.  It's that the rich young man was arrogant enough to claim he followed all the laws all the time, and missed the point that he wasn't actually following God, or willing to sacrifice his life of comfort to do so.

The story has multiple points including, "Put your money  where your mouth is."  Jesus called upon some of the Apostles to abandon their livelihoods and become "fishers of men."

So he's trolling?

Jesus was one of the greatest trolls of all time.  Billions of bites, counting both believers and non-believers who were provoked to strong reactions by his words.

Like everything else, trolling is what you make of it.


www.cartoonstock.com

/hot like hellfire
 
2013-04-19 08:47:30 AM

foxy_canuck: So basically, until the church is perfect, you have no use for them. Well I guess you are an environment destroying, slavery supporting, native population decimating child abuse supporter yourself because you support a government that has done all those things and more, and hasn't come even close to apologizing and making restitutions for all of it.


Asking a group to cooperate with the police to expose and prosecute the criminals they are actively hiding within their ranks is not asking them to be perfect. It is asking them to admit to their sins and accept the consequences. Nice strawman.

Re governments: I do not have a choice with the financial support ... not paying taxes gets me put in jail. I do vote to do my part to affect change within the government and criminal activity definitely loses my vote. In the last Canadian federal election the incumbent party was decimated because of criminal financial kickbacks in Quebec (known as the 'adscam' sponsorship scandal) ... kickbacks are not nearly as serious as hiding child rapists but we acted and removed the criminals from power. Too bad catholics refuse to do this.
 
2013-04-19 10:07:51 AM

PepperFreak: Let me know when that shiatstain gives up all the gold and the castle and the rest of the bullshiat the church has and donates that to the poor.
funny how the head of the jesus fan club lives a very un-jesus like life.


I hate the caltholic church as much as the next guy (was raised in it and my mom was Head of Indoctrination at our church for 35 years) but this guy may be a little different. Let's give him a chance and see where he goes. He has a history of living if not an uncomfortably impoverished life at least very frugally. Let's see if he puts the whole church on that path. I don't have much hope on some other issues, women in the church, gays and how they're treated by the church, but he seems good on some others and doesn't seem like he's gonna take any shiat from the hierarchy. We'll see.
 
2013-04-19 10:23:19 AM

LovingTeacher: PepperFreak: Let me know when that shiatstain gives up all the gold and the castle and the rest of the bullshiat the church has and donates that to the poor.
funny how the head of the jesus fan club lives a very un-jesus like life.

I hate the caltholic church as much as the next guy (was raised in it and my mom was Head of Indoctrination at our church for 35 years) but this guy may be a little different. Let's give him a chance and see where he goes. He has a history of living if not an uncomfortably impoverished life at least very frugally. Let's see if he puts the whole church on that path. I don't have much hope on some other issues, women in the church, gays and how they're treated by the church, but he seems good on some others and doesn't seem like he's gonna take any shiat from the hierarchy. We'll see.


I think that most people agree that this guy is certainly better than Palpatine ... and this is a good thing.

Let's just not suddenly forget about all the criminals hiding in the church, both the prosecuted pedos and those shielding them from justice now or in the past, just because there has been a management change.
 
2013-04-19 01:58:02 PM
Farking Canuck
You keep talking about the criminals hiding in the church... who specifically are you talking about?

All the Canadian guys had evidence turned over to the police, same in Ireland (a friend of mine is dealing with that part of it right now).  Are you thinking specifically of Cardinal Law?  You do realize that's a conspiracy theory, that he did testify before a grand jury a couple of times, and provide evidence on the priests who were accused right?  You know that he was acquitted of any civil guilt in the matter because what he did (not reporting the molestations and moving the priests)  wasn't illegal in the US at the time.  It only became a legal requirement for disclosure on that stuff in 2002, AFTER the scandals in the US.  Are you talking about Benedict?  Because it was the US government who excused him initially on diplomatic immunity, and in the most recent case naming him, there has been no request from the US courts for any evidence, and he is no longer immune as he is not the head of state... AFAIK there is no subpoena for him or anyone else living in the Vatican that is being refused.

The actual reality is that the incidents of abuse in the church have dropped dramatically since the mid 80's because of an ever increasing attention to the issue.  In the 50's and 60's the prevailing wisdom was to try and fix the problem internally (in virtually every organization).  Since then the church has made sexual abuse of a child specifically a canonical crime that can get a priest defrocked and even excommunicated.  Many priests and bishops have been.   JPII and Benedict both explicitly stated that Bishops are to cooperate with civil authorities.  There is now a global written policy for all bishops and dioceses to have strong child protection policies, and to report any disclosures to civil authorities, as well as to cooperate with civil authorities.  The Church in Canada, the US, Australia, Europe, the Philippines etc. have cooperated almost universally with law enforcement.  The Church in North America has become one of the leading organizations teaching children how to recognize and disclose sexual contact or suggestion.  You and everyone else is right to be angry at what happened.  And there should be anger wherever it is still happening.  The reality is though that the church is aggressively putting a stop to it where coverups are happening.  With hundreds of Bishops the world, it is a challenge to ensure the policies are being followed everywhere, but special commissions have been set up to do just that.  The progress has been very rapid and very effective, especially for the Church.  So what is it you are asking for if that is not it?  Who/what are they hiding?  Difficulty, you need actual evidence to make that kind of accusation.  I've provided lots that the church is tackling the problem head on, all you've done is fire off conjectures.
 
2013-04-19 02:22:17 PM

foxy_canuck: You keep talking about the criminals hiding in the church... who specifically are you talking about?


Nobody is suggesting that catholic church has not changed its policies. The previous scandals were very bad for their reputations and quite expensive. Changing policies is just a sound business decision.

Can you honestly say that you believe that the catholic church has owned up to every incident that was reported to them? That they have stepped up to each and every victim, taken responsibility for their actions (and inactions) and done everything they can to make reparations to their victims?

You believe that no victims were hushed up with threats of excommunication, etc?

Take a quick Google ... stories like this are easy to find.
 
2013-04-19 06:38:19 PM
Shouldn't the plural of "bonus" be "boni"?
 
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