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(Huffington Post)   Dayton Air Show wanted to "re-enact" Hiroshima, some people had a problem with that   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 149
    More: Dumbass, Dayton Air Show, Blast!, Hiroshima, air shows, film premiere  
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5305 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Apr 2013 at 12:23 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-18 12:53:34 PM  
We had a Japanese foreign exchange student during my hs years. One day, in our ethics class the WW2 subject came up and she was visibly very angry over it. She kept saying "YOU" guys didn't have to drop 2 bombs, and she kept say "YOU guys". Everyone in the class was very supportive that people in her family were effected by it, but no one in this class had anything to do with dropping those bombs. Hell, my uncle was at pearl harbor when the shiat went down. I guess I should have thrown that in her face.
 
2013-04-18 12:55:36 PM  

dv-ous:  What do you think of civil war reenactors?


Mostly, they are too fat and have all their teeth - two things not commonplace among Civil War regiments.

/27th NC
 
2013-04-18 12:56:04 PM  
FTFA: A University of Dayton associate professor who was born in a U.S. wartime detention camp for Japanese-Americans said besides the "re-enactment" being offensive, the show's contention that the bomb that killed so many Japanese ended up saving more lives is disputable - some historians say Japan would have surrendered without the atomic bomb attacks.

But would have been "total surrender"?  And compared to the firebombing of Tokyo, Nagasaki and Hiroshima had relatively few casualties.
 
2013-04-18 12:56:19 PM  

Ivo Shandor: [i.imgur.com image 340x502]
You can get some good cosplay ideas from this book.


Great book.  Also have his other one.  Dark sun?
 
2013-04-18 12:56:44 PM  

dv-ous: I_Am_Weasel: bopis: I_Am_Weasel: Damn the PC brigade.

I suppose they're going to protest re-enactments of shower time at Auschwitz too.

Because the US is just as bad as Nazi Germany.

The re-enactment of the killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians has no place any more so then re-enacting what happened to Jewish civilians in Germany.

What's the cutoff for civilian deaths? What do you think of civil war reenactors?

/Honestly curious.


Its not civilian deaths, its just a knee-jerk reaction due to the fact that it was a nuclear explosion. If one flew a few hundred b29's overheard - if that was even possible anymore (to recreate, say, the firebombing of Tokyo), there would be less gnashing of teeth, even though there were more civilian deaths.

Nukes were used for 50 years to keep the US and soviets afraid of each other - too afraid to attack. That fear is still with us and shows up like this.
 
2013-04-18 12:59:37 PM  

UNC_Samurai: scottydoesntknow: If anything that sounds really, really boring.

Wouldn't it just be a lone B-52 and two B-29s flying overhead?

Nope.

There's only one flying B-29 left (Fifi). If you've ever seen the Nova special there was an outside chance at salvaging and restoring Kee Bird, but the yokels that undertook the project really screwed the pooch. All that's left is a burned-out hulk at the bottom of a Greenland lake.


Whatever happened to the restoration of "Doc"?
 
2013-04-18 01:02:25 PM  

LeroyBourne: We had a Japanese foreign exchange student during my hs years. One day, in our ethics class the WW2 subject came up and she was visibly very angry over it. She kept saying "YOU" guys didn't have to drop 2 bombs, and she kept say "YOU guys". Everyone in the class was very supportive that people in her family were effected by it, but no one in this class had anything to do with dropping those bombs. Hell, my uncle was at pearl harbor when the shiat went down. I guess I should have thrown that in her face.


IIRC, they were given the chance to surrender after the first.
 
2013-04-18 01:02:41 PM  

OldManDownDRoad: dv-ous:  What do you think of civil war reenactors?

Mostly, they are too fat and have all their teeth - two things not commonplace among Civil War regiments.

/27th NC


The ones around here (mostly the ones I've met at Bentonville and Fort Branch) are all right, but there are a few that enjoy glorifying the war as some sort of adventure, at the expense of the important history lessons (namely the 700,000+ casualties, the severe impact of the war on communities where over half of the men between ages 12 and 50 were dead, etc.). You also run into some that are members of the SCV; those are the ones that scare me, as they're neo-Confederates that think honoring their heritage is the first step towards liberating their state from the Union.
 
2013-04-18 01:04:32 PM  

fat boy: UNC_Samurai: scottydoesntknow: If anything that sounds really, really boring.

Wouldn't it just be a lone B-52 and two B-29s flying overhead?

Nope.

There's only one flying B-29 left (Fifi). If you've ever seen the Nova special there was an outside chance at salvaging and restoring Kee Bird, but the yokels that undertook the project really screwed the pooch. All that's left is a burned-out hulk at the bottom of a Greenland lake.

Whatever happened to the restoration of "Doc"?


Last I heard, they were on hiatus because of the lack of money. Wikipedia says they've started work again, but I haven't heard anything else about it.
 
2013-04-18 01:04:33 PM  
"Air show officials said the re-enactment was meant to highlight a historic event that helped end the war and save lives that would have been lost if the war had been prolonged."

Oh, I see.  Killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was helpful.  Well that makes it okay then.
 
2013-04-18 01:04:40 PM  

fat boy: LeroyBourne: We had a Japanese foreign exchange student during my hs years. One day, in our ethics class the WW2 subject came up and she was visibly very angry over it. She kept saying "YOU" guys didn't have to drop 2 bombs, and she kept say "YOU guys". Everyone in the class was very supportive that people in her family were effected by it, but no one in this class had anything to do with dropping those bombs. Hell, my uncle was at pearl harbor when the shiat went down. I guess I should have thrown that in her face.

IIRC, they were given the chance to surrender after the first.


They were given many opportunities, even before Hiroshima - when loss was already inevitable.
 
2013-04-18 01:05:06 PM  
Love going to airshows, especially to see the vintage stuff but this is pretty stupid. Pyro displays at airshows don't serve any purpose other than entertaining the mouthbreather crowd, "Guh-hyuck hyuck, fire made it good...", wish they'd stop doing them. To the airshow organizers, spend the money on bringing in more awesome aircraft!
 
2013-04-18 01:05:39 PM  
CSB: I went to an air show in Ida Grove, Iowa in 1991; they re-enacted the taking of Iwo Jima and the raising of the flag on Mt. Suribachi. Lots of Zeroes and Betties and Corsairs flying overhead, small arms fire, squibs going off. At the end of the show they detonated something that made a big bang and a credible-looking mushroom cloud, and the MC gave a short speech about how nuclear bombs ended the war but at a grave human cost. I'd say it was a pretty classy way to deal with a multifaceted issue.
 
2013-04-18 01:06:13 PM  
Also on hold are the planned Salute to the Bombing of Dresden, and Pearl Harbor 2.0...
 
2013-04-18 01:06:42 PM  

darth_badger: [images.defensetech.org image 329x344]

RIP FIFI


'dafuq did I just read?
 
2013-04-18 01:08:14 PM  
Stomped all over Enola Gay Pride Day! Bastards!
 
2013-04-18 01:11:16 PM  

jshine: They were given many opportunities, even before Hiroshima - when loss was already inevitable.


Unfortunately, that was the Asian Face-culture at work.
 
2013-04-18 01:11:47 PM  

fat boy: LeroyBourne: We had a Japanese foreign exchange student during my hs years. One day, in our ethics class the WW2 subject came up and she was visibly very angry over it. She kept saying "YOU" guys didn't have to drop 2 bombs, and she kept say "YOU guys". Everyone in the class was very supportive that people in her family were effected by it, but no one in this class had anything to do with dropping those bombs. Hell, my uncle was at pearl harbor when the shiat went down. I guess I should have thrown that in her face.

IIRC, they were given the chance to surrender after the first.


Yes, we gave them many chances to surrender, but Nagasaki would've also been hit pretty much no matter what. Hiroshima was to show the unbelievable superweapon we created that could literally destroy an entire city with one drop. Nagasaki was to show that it wasn't just a one-time weapon and that we did have more and were not willing to accept anything but unconditional surrender.
 
2013-04-18 01:12:19 PM  
The war would have been over by October at the latest. Between the blockade of Japan by the US Navy and the Bombings, they really didn't have much time. Besides, various factions wanted to surrender and not surrender at various times.

The bombs were meant to show the world America's new power.
 
2013-04-18 01:13:38 PM  

HortusMatris: "Air show officials said the re-enactment was meant to highlight a historic event that helped end the war and save lives that would have been lost if the war had been prolonged."

Oh, I see.  Killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was helpful.  Well that makes it okay then.


Large numbers of deaths were inevitable, whether by nuke or regular bombs or an invasion. Just look at the battles fought up to that point as examples and extrapolate what would have been required to pacify the home islands. Hell, Japanese casualties on iwo jima were something like 99% because they preferred suicide to surrender. On Okinawa (iirc), the soldiers marched their civilians off cliffs first.

Extrapolate that behavior to the whole country; its chilling.
 
2013-04-18 01:14:48 PM  
A University of Dayton associate professor who was born in a U.S. wartime detention camp for Japanese-Americans said besides the "re-enactment" being offensive, the show's contention that the bomb that killed so many Japanese ended up saving more lives is disputable - some historians say Japan would have surrendered without the atomic bomb attacks.

Japanese historians, no doubt. After all, in their own eyes, the Japanese were an advanced, peace-loving nation who brought, technology, peace, and civilization to the poor backwards countries they occupied. Korean comfort women were all volunteer prostitutes, the rape on Nanking is a lie, they had the upmost respect for and took very good care of Allied POWs. The attacks on Honk Kong, Singapore, and Pearl Harbor were justified responses to Western aggression. They just can't understand why the ignorant, ungrateful Chinese and Koreans loathe them to this day.

As for Japan surrendering without the A-bomb being dropped, I'm not an historian, but I do have an opinion: considering the very large death toll in taking Okinawa where civilians committed suicide en masse and soldiers fought until they died, rather than surrender. Considering also that the Japanese refused to surrender even after Hiroshima received the first Atomic bomb, but that it, in fact, two A-bombs before they did, I very much doubt any revisionist historian's claims that lives were not saved by the A-bombs because Japan would have surrendered even without them.

I would very much like to know who these historians are and what they base their revisionist point of view on.

//we can never know what historical events would have happened had the past unfolded differently.
 
2013-04-18 01:18:10 PM  

HortusMatris: "Air show officials said the re-enactment was meant to highlight a historic event that helped end the war and save lives that would have been lost if the war had been prolonged."

Oh, I see.  Killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was helpful.  Well that makes it okay then.


It was more like tens of thousands (unless you add both attacks). But the government experts estimated that an invasion of Japan would cost 200,000 to 500,000 more American lives and 3 to 5 million more Japanese lives, including civilians. So in the long run, and in a really sad way, yes, it was helpful. For both sides.
 
2013-04-18 01:19:19 PM  

namegoeshere: Unfortunately, that was the Asian Face-culture at work.


Bukakke?
 
2013-04-18 01:22:23 PM  

capt.hollister: A University of Dayton associate professor who was born in a U.S. wartime detention camp for Japanese-Americans said besides the "re-enactment" being offensive, the show's contention that the bomb that killed so many Japanese ended up saving more lives is disputable - some historians say Japan would have surrendered without the atomic bomb attacks.

Japanese historians, no doubt. After all, in their own eyes, the Japanese were an advanced, peace-loving nation who brought, technology, peace, and civilization to the poor backwards countries they occupied. Korean comfort women were all volunteer prostitutes, the rape on Nanking is a lie, they had the upmost respect for and took very good care of Allied POWs. The attacks on Honk Kong, Singapore, and Pearl Harbor were justified responses to Western aggression. They just can't understand why the ignorant, ungrateful Chinese and Koreans loathe them to this day.

As for Japan surrendering without the A-bomb being dropped, I'm not an historian, but I do have an opinion: considering the very large death toll in taking Okinawa where civilians committed suicide en masse and soldiers fought until they died, rather than surrender. Considering also that the Japanese refused to surrender even after Hiroshima received the first Atomic bomb, but that it, in fact, two A-bombs before they did, I very much doubt any revisionist historian's claims that lives were not saved by the A-bombs because Japan would have surrendered even without them.

I would very much like to know who these historians are and what they base their revisionist point of view on.

//we can never know what historical events would have happened had the past unfolded differently.


I spend some time in the Philippines, had some long conversations with those who were around during the Japanese occupation, they still have nothing positive to say about the Japanese. farking barbarians
 
2013-04-18 01:23:49 PM  

JonnyBGoode: HortusMatris: "Air show officials said the re-enactment was meant to highlight a historic event that helped end the war and save lives that would have been lost if the war had been prolonged."

Oh, I see.  Killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was helpful.  Well that makes it okay then.

It was more like tens of thousands (unless you add both attacks). But the government experts estimated that an invasion of Japan would cost 200,000 to 500,000 more American lives and 3 to 5 million more Japanese lives, including civilians. So in the long run, and in a really sad way, yes, it was helpful. For both sides.


Also more people died from bombing of Tokyo than died from explosion of the Atomic Bomb at Hiroshima. (Of course radiation sickness eventually killed many more)  One night of bombing raids killed 100,000 in Tokyo yet that did not trouble the powers in charge in Japan.
 
2013-04-18 01:26:03 PM  
media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com

Boston shame.
 
2013-04-18 01:27:58 PM  

darth_badger: [media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com image 550x821]

Boston shame.


Wrong thread ... whoops.
 
2013-04-18 01:29:51 PM  

darth_badger: darth_badger: [media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com image 550x821]

Boston shame.

Wrong thread ... whoops.


I guess you could say he nuked her carpet
 
2013-04-18 01:30:33 PM  

darth_badger: darth_badger: [media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com image 550x821]

Boston shame.

Wrong thread ... whoops.


Meh, that sign is a good metaphor for most fark threads.
 
2013-04-18 01:31:48 PM  

trotsky: The war would have been over by October at the latest. Between the blockade of Japan by the US Navy and the Bombings, they really didn't have much time. Besides, various factions wanted to surrender and not surrender at various times.

The bombs were meant to show the world America's new power.


That's a very Western point of view. It is what we would expect a Western country with Western values on the worth of individual lives to do. In what could be glimpsed of the Japanese psyche before and during WWII, there is no reason to believe that the government and people of Japan would have surrendered before hundreds of thousands, if not millions, had either committed suicide or starved to death.  In that respect, it is probably true that the A-bombs and hastened the end of the war and saved many more lives than they took.

Of course, all of this is speculation. We have no accurate way of knowing what would have happened until a real Pr. Farnsworth invents an actual "what if" machine.
 
2013-04-18 01:32:24 PM  
Will they have someone speaking the last words of the Mayor of Hiroshima?
"What the fark was that?!``
 
2013-04-18 01:32:38 PM  

Tsar_Bomba1: He looked down and could see his bones glowing through his boot.


WTF??????????????????????????????????????????
 
2013-04-18 01:37:11 PM  

jshine: fat boy: LeroyBourne: We had a Japanese foreign exchange student during my hs years. One day, in our ethics class the WW2 subject came up and she was visibly very angry over it. She kept saying "YOU" guys didn't have to drop 2 bombs, and she kept say "YOU guys". Everyone in the class was very supportive that people in her family were effected by it, but no one in this class had anything to do with dropping those bombs. Hell, my uncle was at pearl harbor when the shiat went down. I guess I should have thrown that in her face.

IIRC, they were given the chance to surrender after the first.

They were given many opportunities, even before Hiroshima - when loss was already inevitable.


I also believe notes were dropped over their city days before the bomb dropped warning them to leave.
 
2013-04-18 01:38:59 PM  

scottydoesntknow: darth_badger: darth_badger: [media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com image 550x821]

Boston shame.

Wrong thread ... whoops.

I guess you could say he nuked her carpet


He ate the bomb.
 
2013-04-18 01:40:06 PM  

namegoeshere: Tsar_Bomba1: scottydoesntknow: If anything that sounds really, really boring.

Wouldn't it just be a lone B-52 and two B-29s flying overhead?

Nope.  Just the Enola Gay.  Other 2 camera planes got separated/lost... that's why the only footage we have is a quick clip that they shot out of the EG shaky-cam style.

One of my former bosses had a brother who flew on the Nagasaki bombing.  Said when it came time they were told to put on their goggles and cover their eyes and look away.  Right after detonation they all took off their goggles.  He looked down and could see his bones glowing through his boot.

I always thought he was pulling my leg on that, but I ran into an identical account from one of the camera men who worked on the Nevada tests.

Did he die of cancer?


No.  Some kids drove up along side him and fired a shotgun into his face.  He lived for quite a few years afterwards, but I believe complications from that caught up with him.

From what little research I've done as to whether or not we should have dropped the bombs...

The topography of Japan made it that there was only one area where we could do a ground invasion.  We knew it and the Japanese knew it. One way in and one way out.  Predictions were over a million US casualties in just the first year of the land invasion.  The Emperor had already instructed the populace to fight to the last man, woman, and child.  And they were training for it. If memory served the original first target was Tokyo... but due to an American ambassador who had spent some time there he got them to change it due to the cultural significance of the city.

If you're interested in more try Googling "Operation Downfall".
 
2013-04-18 01:40:11 PM  

JonnyBGoode: HortusMatris: "Air show officials said the re-enactment was meant to highlight a historic event that helped end the war and save lives that would have been lost if the war had been prolonged."

Oh, I see.  Killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was helpful.  Well that makes it okay then.

It was more like tens of thousands (unless you add both attacks). But the government experts estimated that an invasion of Japan would cost 200,000 to 500,000 more American lives and 3 to 5 million more Japanese lives, including civilians. So in the long run, and in a really sad way, yes, it was helpful. For both sides.


Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
 
2013-04-18 01:43:16 PM  

HortusMatris: JonnyBGoode: HortusMatris: "Air show officials said the re-enactment was meant to highlight a historic event that helped end the war and save lives that would have been lost if the war had been prolonged."

Oh, I see.  Killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was helpful.  Well that makes it okay then.

It was more like tens of thousands (unless you add both attacks). But the government experts estimated that an invasion of Japan would cost 200,000 to 500,000 more American lives and 3 to 5 million more Japanese lives, including civilians. So in the long run, and in a really sad way, yes, it was helpful. For both sides.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.


Indeed, which is probably why we didn't enter WWII voluntarily. Google 'Pearl Harbor'.
 
2013-04-18 01:47:52 PM  

HortusMatris: JonnyBGoode: HortusMatris: "Air show officials said the re-enactment was meant to highlight a historic event that helped end the war and save lives that would have been lost if the war had been prolonged."

Oh, I see.  Killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was helpful.  Well that makes it okay then.

It was more like tens of thousands (unless you add both attacks). But the government experts estimated that an invasion of Japan would cost 200,000 to 500,000 more American lives and 3 to 5 million more Japanese lives, including civilians. So in the long run, and in a really sad way, yes, it was helpful. For both sides.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.


"No sensible decision can be made any longer without taking into account not only the world as it is, but the world as it will be"

I can quote Isaac Asimov too!
 
2013-04-18 01:48:18 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Doc


They just back into a hanger and have restarted the restoration http://www.b-29doc.com/about.php


Kermit Weeks also has one project with minor wing corrosion and several more "complete" airframes that have been in crates for decades.
 
2013-04-18 01:48:29 PM  
"We are a city of peace," she said.

I've been to Dayton. Don't lie.
 
2013-04-18 01:50:28 PM  

LeroyBourne: jshine: fat boy: LeroyBourne: We had a Japanese foreign exchange student during my hs years. One day, in our ethics class the WW2 subject came up and she was visibly very angry over it. She kept saying "YOU" guys didn't have to drop 2 bombs, and she kept say "YOU guys". Everyone in the class was very supportive that people in her family were effected by it, but no one in this class had anything to do with dropping those bombs. Hell, my uncle was at pearl harbor when the shiat went down. I guess I should have thrown that in her face.

IIRC, they were given the chance to surrender after the first.

They were given many opportunities, even before Hiroshima - when loss was already inevitable.

I also believe notes were dropped over their city days before the bomb dropped warning them to leave.


I got outbid on one of these several years ago on eBay...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasa ki #Leaflets
 
2013-04-18 01:52:00 PM  
farm8.staticflickr.com


/Why couldn't it have been the Hindenburg? There's a shirt for that.
 
2013-04-18 01:59:29 PM  

scottydoesntknow: HortusMatris: JonnyBGoode: HortusMatris: "Air show officials said the re-enactment was meant to highlight a historic event that helped end the war and save lives that would have been lost if the war had been prolonged."

Oh, I see.  Killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was helpful.  Well that makes it okay then.

It was more like tens of thousands (unless you add both attacks). But the government experts estimated that an invasion of Japan would cost 200,000 to 500,000 more American lives and 3 to 5 million more Japanese lives, including civilians. So in the long run, and in a really sad way, yes, it was helpful. For both sides.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

"No sensible decision can be made any longer without taking into account not only the world as it is, but the world as it will be"

I can quote Isaac Asimov too!


"It is change, continuing change, inevitable change, that is the dominant factor in society today. No sensible decision can be made any longer without taking into account not only the world as it is, but the world as it will be.... This, in turn, means that our statesmen, our businessmen, our everyman must take on a science fictional way of thinking. "

Good for you, but I don't think Asimov was excusing the use of violence with that statement.
 
2013-04-18 02:07:00 PM  
I always found it somewhat ironic that there is a huge peace movement here in Dayton.

I mean, Wright Patterson is next door. That place is no joke. One of the more important Air Force Bases in the country.
 
2013-04-18 02:07:13 PM  

Thudfark: /Why couldn't it have been the Hindenburg? There's a shirt for that.


Damn, that chick on the left is pug-f'ugly.
 
2013-04-18 02:11:12 PM  
I love John Hersey's book. I Just happen to be reading it again.
 
2013-04-18 02:12:41 PM  

scottydoesntknow: HortusMatris: JonnyBGoode: HortusMatris: "Air show officials said the re-enactment was meant to highlight a historic event that helped end the war and save lives that would have been lost if the war had been prolonged."

Oh, I see.  Killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was helpful.  Well that makes it okay then.

It was more like tens of thousands (unless you add both attacks). But the government experts estimated that an invasion of Japan would cost 200,000 to 500,000 more American lives and 3 to 5 million more Japanese lives, including civilians. So in the long run, and in a really sad way, yes, it was helpful. For both sides.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

"No sensible decision can be made any longer without taking into account not only the world as it is, but the world as it will be"

I can quote Isaac Asimov too!


And let's not presume to know what psychohistory (were it a real science) would have predicted to be the ripple effects of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 
2013-04-18 02:18:21 PM  

Dynascape: I always found it somewhat ironic that there is a huge peace movement here in Dayton.

I mean, Wright Patterson is next door. That place is no joke. One of the more important Air Force Bases in the country.


===========

Wright Patterson is the biggest airbase the US maintains in the lower 48.  Without Wright-Patterson, Dayton would dry up and blow away.
 
2013-04-18 02:18:25 PM  
Yes Sir, drop that F*****, twice.


Movie line and all.
 
2013-04-18 02:20:17 PM  
Choosing to use atomic weapons against Japan was the best course of action.  Yes, dropping Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed a lot of civilians but they were both valuable militarily and destroying them was militarily justifiable.  Even after Nagasaki, Japanese military leaders didn't want to surrender and tried to stage a coup against the emperor.
 
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