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(Bloomberg)   If the gun vote yesterday proved anything to America and the media, it should be this - the bully pulpit is worthless, and claims that legislative problems are due to lack of Presidential "leadership" ludicrous   (bloomberg.com) divider line 271
    More: Obvious, Barack Obama's, human beings, Tip O'Neill, divided government, Political campaign staff, Sandy Hook  
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2658 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Apr 2013 at 12:35 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-18 10:33:10 AM  
No one will interpret it that way though, since leadership is only ever analyzed post-hoc. If something is successful, then it was good leadership. If not, bad leadership. There's no other yardstick.
 
2013-04-18 10:56:09 AM  
A/B testing of messages to your supporters is not leadership it is pandering.
 
2013-04-18 10:56:57 AM  
The bully pulpit sets the National conversation.  To the extent that is worthless, well I guess we will find out in 2014.
 
2013-04-18 11:01:19 AM  

mrshowrules: The bully pulpit sets the National conversation.  To the extent that is worthless, well I guess we will find out in 2014.


Obama didn't create this conversation. A massacre did.
 
2013-04-18 11:01:29 AM  
Why won't Obama lead with his magic filibuster-buster wand??
 
2013-04-18 11:02:29 AM  
I know this sounds really petty, and it is, but what about little things like invites to special events, social engagements, things like that? Assuming that Republicans are invited in the first place, if I was Obama I could try to make them social pariahs around Washington DC. Not just the Members, but their families and staff.

Like I said, its petty.
 
2013-04-18 11:09:53 AM  
It means tyranny by the minority.
 
2013-04-18 11:16:13 AM  
"Growing up as the daughter of a small-town evangelical Christian preacher..."

Humm. I wonder is she is like every single other girl I knew who grew up in an ultra-conservative evangelical Christian family.  Based on the article, I'm leaning towards "yes".
 
2013-04-18 11:17:08 AM  

DamnYankees: mrshowrules: The bully pulpit sets the National conversation.  To the extent that is worthless, well I guess we will find out in 2014.

Obama didn't create this conversation. A massacre did.


Talking about a tragedy and a big story is not the same as a National conversation.  Look at Virginia Tech in comparison.

A National conversation isn't a month long news cycle, it is more profound.  People questioning why the Government is ignoring the will of the electorate is a deeper conversation which Obama is and will sustain with Americans.  The massacre provoked it, but Obama is going to sustain it and push it as the issue debated politically between now and 2014.  The bully pulpit will do that, how that will change anything, well, that part is debatable.
 
2013-04-18 11:19:28 AM  

mrshowrules: ully pulpit will do that, how that will change anything, well, that part is debatable.


And that's the key. I don't disagree that Obama has done a lot to talk about this and keep it in the news. The whole point is that its worthless.
 
2013-04-18 11:19:33 AM  
"Hurrrr, 0bama needs to show leadership, duurrr"

Lamest.  BS.  Ever.

How the f*ck are you going to blame "lack of leadership" when the opposition's one and only goal is to stop whatever the Prez tries to do?

Maybe after a couple dozen more votes on repealing Obamacare and a few hundred more on abortion, the GOP will return their laser-like focus on something like, I dunno, the JOBS! JOBS! JOBS!! they promised to work on.

I don't take campaign promises seriously, but, jeez, you think they'd at least try to appear like they gave a shiat.
 
2013-04-18 11:21:06 AM  

UberDave: "Growing up as the daughter of a small-town evangelical Christian preacher..."

Humm. I wonder is she is like every single other girl I knew who grew up in an ultra-conservative evangelical Christian family.  Based on the article, I'm leaning towards "yes".


Ignore...this is what happens when I open more than one tab and get distracted.  (sigh)
 
2013-04-18 11:24:32 AM  

DamnYankees: Obama didn't create this conversation. A massacre did.


He campaigned on gun control, didn't he?
 
2013-04-18 11:25:03 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: DamnYankees: Obama didn't create this conversation. A massacre did.

He campaigned on gun control, didn't he?


...no?
 
2013-04-18 11:32:59 AM  

DamnYankees: ...no?


Aurora was in July and Giffords was shot in 2011. Why the sudden urgency?
 
2013-04-18 11:32:59 AM  

DamnYankees: mrshowrules: ully pulpit will do that, how that will change anything, well, that part is debatable.

And that's the key. I don't disagree that Obama has done a lot to talk about this and keep it in the news. The whole point is that its worthless.


You might be right but my point is that you can't really evaluate that completely until 2014.
 
2013-04-18 11:34:03 AM  

mrshowrules: DamnYankees: mrshowrules: ully pulpit will do that, how that will change anything, well, that part is debatable.

And that's the key. I don't disagree that Obama has done a lot to talk about this and keep it in the news. The whole point is that its worthless.

You might be right but my point is that you can't really evaluate that completely until 2014.


If the point of the bull pulpit is to win elections, then yes, we need to wait. But if the point is to enact actual policy, I think he's already lost.
 
2013-04-18 11:34:44 AM  

vernonFL: I know this sounds really petty, and it is, but what about little things like invites to special events, social engagements, things like that? Assuming that Republicans are invited in the first place, if I was Obama I could try to make them social pariahs around Washington DC. Not just the Members, but their families and staff.

Like I said, its petty.


Invite them and just let them know that certain families of the victims will also be present and you would understand if they did not have the courage to attend.
 
2013-04-18 11:38:41 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: DamnYankees: ...no?

Aurora was in July and Giffords was shot in 2011. Why the sudden urgency?


Giffords, Aurora and Newton.  Whatever.  Don't worry about those.  Republicans will however own the next massacre using a weapon purchased without a background check.  That shiat will all be on the GOP.  Any predictions on how long that will take?
 
2013-04-18 11:42:25 AM  
Every time the GOP pulls crap like using parliamentary procedure to block a vote on something like this where clearly the will of the people is behind it, a few thousand moderates/independents drop their support another notch for anything the GOP does. I say let them continue on the path to going full retard. 2014 is going to be hell for them.

i219.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-18 11:43:31 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Aurora was in July and Giffords was shot in 2011. Why the sudden urgency?


Children.

When the shooting happened in Newtown, I said "and this is going to send everyone into a total freak out mode and finally demonize guns in a way they never could have hoped for."  It was a gift to the anti-gun people, on a silver platter.

Now, I personally, have no real horse in this race. I am not particularly pro-gun (or anti-gun.) I don't care that much about guns, and have no desire to own one, though I do think if someone else wants to, they have that right and can only hope they use it responsibly.

I'm listening to all these people shriek about the "will of the people" and how these background checks will SAVE LIVES and I keep wondering what world they all live in.  They reference Newtown, as if background checks would have stopped that shooting from happening? They seem to miss the whole "Adam Lanza didn't actually own those guns" part, which is awfully important.  This background check stuff is nothing more than feel good legislation, that will make people think something was done. And if it passes, when the next massacre happens, people won't understand how it is these background checks didn't stop it. (Hint: criminals don't worry much about those add-on laws when they have already decided to go and commit mass homicide. They'll find a way around it. And underground gun dealers who are also breaking laws already? They're really not concerned about breaking one regarding background checks.)

But you know, children died. <em>Children</em>.  Therefore, stop the world, scream and yell, this is the most important thing ever.
 
2013-04-18 11:44:08 AM  

dogdaze: Every time the GOP pulls crap like using parliamentary procedure to block a vote on something like this where clearly the will of the people is behind it, a few thousand moderates/independents drop their support another notch for anything the GOP does. I say let them continue on the path to going full retard. 2014 is going to be hell for them.

[i219.photobucket.com image 391x344]


There's no evidence for this at all. I've seen no evidence - at all - that this is hurting the GOP electorally.
 
2013-04-18 11:44:45 AM  

mrshowrules: Giffords, Aurora and Newton. Whatever. Don't worry about those. Republicans will however own the next massacre using a weapon purchased without a background check. That shiat will all be on the GOP. Any predictions on how long that will take?


I am just curious why the sudden passion when there were two incidents prior to Sandy Hook and nary a peep from Obama on the campaign trail.
 
2013-04-18 11:47:19 AM  

serpent_sky: Therefore, stop the world, scream and yell, this is the most important thing ever.


I don't have kids, I don't even particularly like kids, but I can understand how 20 dead kids with baseball sized holes in them might accelerate the debate just a tad.
 
2013-04-18 11:48:39 AM  
To be honest Im far more concerned with the fact that congress repealed that insider trading ban Than am about the gun control legislation. But whatever man.
 
2013-04-18 11:53:40 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: serpent_sky: Therefore, stop the world, scream and yell, this is the most important thing ever.

I don't have kids, I don't even particularly like kids, but I can understand how 20 dead kids with baseball sized holes in them might accelerate the debate just a tad.


Why?  I'm not being a biatch, I honestly don't see why children's lives are somehow more valuable than anyone else's. The people who died in Aurora were less valuable? The people who died in Arizona were less valuable?  That makes no sense to me.  All death is tragic, but people go into some kind of goddamned frenzy if it involves children.   Even in Boston, it's "an 8-year-old child and two other people died."  Well, just screw those two other people, a <em>child</em> died.

I realize that I am not wired in a way where children elicit any emotional response from me.  Like my friend was looking at a photo of a kid in Boston and saying "how scared he must have been' and I said, "yeah, him and everyone else there."  Our society by and large worships children, in a way to absolutely confuses me.  But I saw this all coming within a couple of hours of the news about Newtown.

And everyone still ignore that all the background checks in the world wouldn't have stopped that nut from taking someone else's guns and killing as many people as he wanted.
 
2013-04-18 11:53:45 AM  

serpent_sky: They reference Newtown, as if background checks would have stopped that shooting from happening? They seem to miss the whole "Adam Lanza didn't actually own those guns" part, which is awfully important.


I've never heard anyone claim this.  The ideas is that it could save lives going forward.  For someone who claims to not have a horse in the race, you sure seem to know the speaking points really well.
 
2013-04-18 11:54:40 AM  

serpent_sky: They seem to miss the whole "Adam Lanza didn't actually own those guns" part, which is awfully important.


Right.  He tried to buy one of his own, but stopped when he learned he would undergo a background check.
 
2013-04-18 11:58:04 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: mrshowrules: Giffords, Aurora and Newton. Whatever. Don't worry about those. Republicans will however own the next massacre using a weapon purchased without a background check. That shiat will all be on the GOP. Any predictions on how long that will take?

I am just curious why the sudden passion when there were two incidents prior to Sandy Hook and nary a peep from Obama on the campaign trail.


He wouldn't be President today if he had.  Is that what your are getting at.  Romney had to make the same type of reversals on gun control to get elected.  No one is questioning that the NRA has all the politics locked up on this issue.  That is obvious.  The fact that gun control is relegated to second term politics (even for St. Reagan) is just the political reality.  Not to be confused with the will of the people.
 
2013-04-18 11:59:13 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: mrshowrules: Giffords, Aurora and Newton. Whatever. Don't worry about those. Republicans will however own the next massacre using a weapon purchased without a background check. That shiat will all be on the GOP. Any predictions on how long that will take?

I am just curious why the sudden passion when there were two incidents prior to Sandy Hook and nary a peep from Obama on the campaign trail.


Larger majority in the Senate and smaller gap in the House made him think it was finally politically possible, whereas it was much farther from a possibility prior to Election Day 2012.

That, and as someone mentioned before, Newtown captured the public unlike the previous tragedies. He took advantage of increased public interest.
 
2013-04-18 12:00:26 PM  

Weaver95: To be honest Im far more concerned with the fact that congress repealed that insider trading ban Than am about the gun control legislation. But whatever man.


You're not alone. Very few people really give a shiat about the new gun laws or lack there of.

I know it's a big deal on Fark, but remember "it's not news, it's Fark"
 
2013-04-18 12:03:04 PM  
Republicans want to be "led" to legislation they already support.
 
2013-04-18 12:04:51 PM  

DamnYankees: Dancin_In_Anson: DamnYankees: Obama didn't create this conversation. A massacre did.

He campaigned on gun control, didn't he?

...no?


He didn't campaign on gun control.

In fact, he avoided it like the farkin' plague during his entire first term.

Why?

Because he knew it was a loser issue for him.  If he went with a full court press on gun control like he did after Sandy Hook, but instead after the Aurora shooting, Mitt Romney would probably be sitting the White House right now.  He would have certainly lost Florida and the Upper Midwest, and possibly Ohio and Pennsylvania also.

He doesn't care now, though:  He can't be re-elected, so it doesn't matter to him from a political standpoint.

And I hate to toot my own horn*, but I called it back here on Fark in 2011:

"Here is a good summary of just *WHY* Obama is pretty much silent on the issue. Short version: He doesn't want to get his ass kicked in the 2012 election. "

Once freed from the constraints of having to worry about another election, all it took was a high profile shooting for him to push for it.  It came just weeks after the election, in this case, but it doesn't matter if it came weeks, months, or even a couple years after the election, given his history and his promises to people like Feinstein and Brady, it was almost inevitable.

*Actually, if I could do that, I wouldn't waste my time on Fark ;-)
 
2013-04-18 12:05:02 PM  

serpent_sky: I honestly don't see why children's lives are somehow more valuable than anyone else's.


I don't think it's about 'value'. All life is valuable, but cutting down a child is, to a lot of people, more tragic because children are young and innocent, and their death removes all the potential and possibilities their future life had in store. Also I can't believe I have to type this out.

serpent_sky: And everyone still ignore that all the background checks in the world wouldn't have stopped that nut from taking someone else's guns and killing as many people as he wanted.


But it may stop someone in the future. As David Roberts put it:

For the record, I would gladly accept some inconveniences around a hobby I enjoyed if it would help prevent the massacre of children.

- David Roberts (@drgrist) April 17, 2013
 
2013-04-18 12:06:02 PM  

DamnYankees: There's no evidence for this at all. I've seen no evidence - at all - that this is hurting the GOP electorally.


Maybe you missed what happened to the GOP in 2012.
 
2013-04-18 12:06:21 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: serpent_sky: They seem to miss the whole "Adam Lanza didn't actually own those guns" part, which is awfully important.

Right.  He tried to buy one of his own, but stopped when he learned he would undergo a background check.


And that clearly stopped him from obtaining guns and killing people, right?

My Facebook was loaded with people howling and decrying the vote this morning and I just had to walk away.  I am one of the few people who is generally liberal but not rabidly for gun control.  I don't care that much, and I honestly don't think most people do in any genuine way. It's just something to talk about.

I wish people would be this worked up about CISPA and what it could mean if that garbage passes.
 
2013-04-18 12:07:23 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: serpent_sky: They seem to miss the whole "Adam Lanza didn't actually own those guns" part, which is awfully important.

Right.  He tried to buy one of his own, but stopped when he learned he would undergo a background check.


He then exploited the "Shoot your mom in the face and steal her guns" loophole.
 
2013-04-18 12:11:14 PM  

dogdaze: DamnYankees: There's no evidence for this at all. I've seen no evidence - at all - that this is hurting the GOP electorally.

Maybe you missed what happened to the GOP in 2012.


They won the House and lost the Presidency by 3 points? This is not the sign of a party that is getting creamed due to extremism.
 
2013-04-18 12:13:23 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: But it may stop someone in the future. As David Roberts put it:

For the record, I would gladly accept some inconveniences around a hobby I enjoyed if it would help prevent the massacre of children.

- David Roberts (@drgrist) April 17, 2013


School massacres happen in countries with even the very strictest gun laws.  In some cases, they don't use guns at all, because they are unavailable.

It's a fool's game to think that further restrictions on ownership of firearms will stop the (very infrequent) massacres of young school children.  The sort of person who would commit such acts will merely switch to a different method, and engineer the circumstances to account for that.
 
2013-04-18 12:14:32 PM  
Here is a really great statement on the subject...reprinted with permission:


I'ma say this.


Jeepers Creepers, I sure am sorry that so many people didn't get their way today with the whole change the gun law thing. Really, though? The changes being requested were token at best. Very minor, in the big scheme of things. I am basing this on the speech I just listened to on NBC where Obama was all mad and talking about it.

Can we be realistic for a second though? Gun violence is not a political issue. It is a social issue. It is also not a religious issue. It is a social issue. Sending people to Washington to fix it is, basically, stupid. They can't. You can't legislate violence, try tho you will. You can't pass a law that says "no more children will be killed". You CAN pass a law that enables consequences to that act, and it may or may not act as a deterrent to the act, but it won't stop someone who wants to do it from doing it.

It's a social issue - perhaps a medical issue, but nobody went to the medical/psychologists community asking for help. They went to Washington. Disappointment in the outcome was guaranteed.

So, no. Sorry. I don't really think I am gonna post pictures on facebook about being betrayed by my party or that the government let us down. We let ourselves down. I saw earlier tonight that those in charge of things at the San Antonio Fiesta event NIOSA has banned backpacks. This is beyond stupid. This is infantile and ignorant fear mongering. More fear is the complete opposite of what we need to do. We need to start dialing DOWN the fear. It is fear and anger that CREATE the violence. I am not gonna say any more about that.

OK there. I said my peace. I don't give 2 flying monkey butts about your gun laws. I am more afraid of the rage level of the guy down the road with a gun than I am about whether he filed the right paperwork.
 
2013-04-18 12:15:18 PM  

UberDave: UberDave: "Growing up as the daughter of a small-town evangelical Christian preacher..."

Humm. I wonder is she is like every single other girl I knew who grew up in an ultra-conservative evangelical Christian family.  Based on the article, I'm leaning towards "yes".

Ignore...this is what happens when I open more than one tab and get distracted.  (sigh)


It's ok. Reminded me of midwestern preachers daughters in my youth. There was more than one so I consider them all tramps. Is that wrong?
 
2013-04-18 12:15:38 PM  

dittybopper: In some cases, they don't use guns at all


Imagine Newtown without a gun. That would be something.

dittybopper: It's a fool's game to think that further restrictions on ownership of firearms will stop the (very infrequent) massacres of young school children.


Who is limiting the conversation to just school massacres? That's rather short sighted.
 
2013-04-18 12:16:16 PM  

serpent_sky: And that clearly stopped him from obtaining guns and killing people, right?

My Facebook was loaded with people howling and decrying the vote this morning and I just had to walk away.  I am one of the few people who is generally liberal but not rabidly for gun control.  I don't care that much, and I honestly don't think most people do in any genuine way. It's just something to talk about.

I wish people would be this worked up about CISPA and what it could mean if that garbage passes.


Perhaps you are the one lacking perspective.  The fact that even something as weak as the Bill couldn't pass is incomprehensible to most people outside the US.  I mean, why even bother doing background checks at all even in the stores?  What's the point?

It is like having two lines at the airport, one with screening and the other one for those who know they won't pass a screening.  farking stupidest thing, I ever heard of.
 
2013-04-18 12:18:17 PM  
As a follow-up to my last point, let those gutless NRA fellators propose cancelling the requirement for any type of background checks anywhere.  You might as well.  Why should responsible gun owners be submitted to this when felons and insane people have a mechanism to bypass it.
 
2013-04-18 12:19:36 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: I sure am sorry that so many people didn't get their way today with the whole change the gun law thing. Really, though? The changes being requested were token at best. Very minor, in the big scheme of things. I am basing this on the speech I just listened to on NBC where Obama was all mad and talking about it.


I thin that many people don't understand - including you - is not that the policies here failed, but that Washington is an incredibly broken place. I don't even care about gun control, but this vote infuriates me because of what it means for our larger political culture and how our government has simply stopped working. It's going to collapse sooner rather than later.
 
2013-04-18 12:20:34 PM  
You know what? I can't even bring myself to care anymore. Ask me again when these shiatstains in DC are offering their thoughts and prayers to the victims of the next massacre as if they care.
 
2013-04-18 12:21:49 PM  

DamnYankees: I thin that many people don't understand - including you - is not that the policies here failed, but that Washington is an incredibly broken place.


That was the point of the article and thread. Unfortunately we've veered away. The filibuster is a procedural rule that isn't in the Constitution. It's preventing the country from even debating solutions to the very urgent problems we as a country face.
 
2013-04-18 12:23:44 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: DamnYankees: I thin that many people don't understand - including you - is not that the policies here failed, but that Washington is an incredibly broken place.

That was the point of the article and thread. Unfortunately we've veered away. The filibuster is a procedural rule that isn't in the Constitution. It's preventing the country from even debating solutions to the very urgent problems we as a country face.


It's not just the filibuster, which is bad, but it's the entire Senate. Someone did the math on this, but they basically calculated that if you attribute actual voters to Senators (i.e. every Senator is allotted half their states population), then about 2/3 of Americans were represented by Senators who votes for this bill. But we've designed our institutions in a way now where that's not enough support. It's a massive problem.
 
2013-04-18 12:25:51 PM  

DamnYankees: Someone did the math on this


Ezra Klein via New Republic. Link

The Senate is indeed effed.
 
2013-04-18 12:29:32 PM  

DamnYankees: I thin that many people don't understand - including you - is not that the policies here failed, but that Washington is an incredibly broken place. I don't even care about gun control, but this vote infuriates me because of what it means for our larger political culture and how our government has simply stopped working. It's going to collapse sooner rather than later.


Good point.  When the GOP obstructed the debt ceiling increase that cost the US its credit rating, there were many people who couldn't care if taxes were increased and/or spending was cut, the just farking them to do what they were elected to do.

This bill represented what most people wanted and was already a compromise to the compromise to the compromise (literally) and in fact was nothing more than making the existing laws more consistent, and yet it failed with a majority of the votes.  I honestly can't see how it can be more broken that regardless of your position on gun control.
 
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