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(Christian Science Monitor)   Good news, Boston. Iran's Ayatollah Khamenei has condemned the Boston Marathon attack and then took a jab at American policies because he was falling short on his yearly quota   (csmonitor.com) divider line 63
    More: Interesting, Khamenei, Iran, United States, proxy wars, candlelight vigil, WMDs  
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3351 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Apr 2013 at 9:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-18 09:05:11 AM
So the Ayatollah works for fox?
 
2013-04-18 09:05:16 AM
I knew it was the jews.
 
2013-04-18 09:06:37 AM
Dood, you're not even using your sky that much anyway.
 
2013-04-18 09:07:15 AM
Good for him. Too bad more Americans aren't saying it.
 
2013-04-18 09:07:35 AM
First the Pakistan Taliban and the Ayatollah. I love them coming out of the woodwork to say "It wasn't me! It wasn't me!"
 
2013-04-18 09:09:13 AM
Man I hate to say it, but he does have a point.
 
2013-04-18 09:11:17 AM
FTFA: "Iran's supreme leader was emphatic in his condemnation of the Boston Marathon attacks, but criticized the US for decrying attacks on its own civilians while carrying out drone strikes elsewhere. "

uh...he kinda has a point there subby
 
2013-04-18 09:11:40 AM
The man does have a point.
 
2013-04-18 09:13:44 AM
Remember kids, the Taliban are Sunni, Khamenei is Shia. There is a difference. But don't worry, he and Iran's theocracy give you other reasons to be mad at them (Like having their kids be used as minefield detection the old fashioned way during the Iran-Iraq war, "If you blow up, we defused a mine!"), so the hate can still flow free.

/just don't blow up the world in the process with your hate
 
2013-04-18 09:14:24 AM
Hold on let me find a fark to give.
 
2013-04-18 09:14:32 AM
lewis.armscontrolwonk.com
 
2013-04-18 09:14:32 AM

lawboy87: Man I hate to say it, but he does have a point.


Yup, he's absolutely on the money. Double standards ftw, but you can bet there will be statements released from various sources talking about Iran's human rights record etc in order to try and discredit/belittle his (correct) statements.
 
2013-04-18 09:15:34 AM
Anyone else think that the bombing was just a random nutjob? Wouldn't a terrorist group have claimed this by now?
 
2013-04-18 09:16:22 AM

epyonyx: Anyone else think that the bombing was just a random nutjob? Wouldn't a terrorist group have claimed this by now?


Yes and yes.
 
2013-04-18 09:17:57 AM
But I've been led to believe that the world is a binary place and everything he does or says is automatically wrong.  You mean it's more complex than that?
 
2013-04-18 09:21:28 AM

epyonyx: Anyone else think that the bombing was just a random nutjob? Wouldn't a terrorist group have claimed this by now?


I've been saying that since the beginning. Terrorists normally take responsibility and make some statement. Frankly with all the nutjobs out there and how easy it is to make bombs, I'm surprised this doesn't happen a lot more often.
 
2013-04-18 09:23:42 AM

epyonyx: Anyone else think that the bombing was just a random nutjob? Wouldn't a terrorist group have claimed this by now?


My bet is it will be Frank Jerkowitz, 3rd generation American, ex-military with two tours of Afghanistan, and a grudge against Big Fitness, and/or the Vitamin Industry.
 
2013-04-18 09:27:08 AM

Archie Goodwin: epyonyx: Anyone else think that the bombing was just a random nutjob? Wouldn't a terrorist group have claimed this by now?

My bet is it will be Frank Jerkowitz, 3rd generation American, ex-military with two tours of Afghanistan, and a grudge against Big Fitness, and/or the Vitamin Industry.


That or some guy who refused treatment for the voices in his head because they call the shots.
 
2013-04-18 09:27:22 AM

Mugato: epyonyx: Anyone else think that the bombing was just a random nutjob? Wouldn't a terrorist group have claimed this by now?

I've been saying that since the beginning. Terrorists normally take responsibility and make some statement. Frankly with all the nutjobs out there and how easy it is to make bombs, I'm surprised this doesn't happen a lot more often.


O_o  Do you hear the knocking at your door yet? They'll probably just flash-bang ya first anyway...
 
2013-04-18 09:28:45 AM
Bombs designed specifically to inflict maximum carnage among innocent civilians gathered for a marathon are not the same as weapons designed specifically to limit the damage as much as possible to the target, which happens to be the type of terrorists that plan/facilitate/carry out the aformentioned style of attacks.

Not the same at all, he does not have a point, Assholla Dumbhiney needs to STFU.  Innocent civilians getting caught up in a military strike on a valid target are victims too, don't get me wrong.  But they weren't being targeted by us.  Drone jocks do not score points by body count.  It's binary.  Was the target destroyed?  Yes/no.

Terrorists score points by body count and media sensationalism.  Try to remember that farkers.
 
2013-04-18 09:29:30 AM
Drone strikes don't count because brown people.
 
2013-04-18 09:30:30 AM

FunkOut: Archie Goodwin: epyonyx: Anyone else think that the bombing was just a random nutjob? Wouldn't a terrorist group have claimed this by now?

My bet is it will be Frank Jerkowitz, 3rd generation American, ex-military with two tours of Afghanistan, and a grudge against Big Fitness, and/or the Vitamin Industry.

That or some guy who refused treatment for the voices in his head because they call the shots.


Hehe. Frank Jerkowitz
 
2013-04-18 09:34:40 AM

Mugato: epyonyx: Anyone else think that the bombing was just a random nutjob? Wouldn't a terrorist group have claimed this by now?

I've been saying that since the beginning. Terrorists normally take responsibility and make some statement. Frankly with all the nutjobs out there and how easy it is to make bombs, I'm surprised this doesn't happen a lot more often.


well have you read how blindingly stupid but violent the people on uncle sam's misguided children are? true story, i trolled it (i don't hide behind a fake profile) and got a serious death threat. not saying they're the one's behind it but i bet whoever did it liked their page. we, as a people, aren't known for being rational.
 
2013-04-18 09:42:15 AM
If it is in America, shouldn't the proper term be the "Boston Snickers attack"?

/still bitter 23 years later
//not really
 
2013-04-18 09:43:53 AM

lawboy87: Man I hate to say it, but he does have a point.


Well, not really.  While occasionally there is collateral damage, the drone strikes are against those who are part of an organization that is in a state of war with the U.S.   Now, if the U.S. were to intentionally drop a bomb on a few Afghani families out on a picnic, then you would have a point.
 
2013-04-18 09:47:02 AM
NumberFiveIsAlive:

You are of course welcome to your incorrect opinion. To the farmers and villagers whose families are being targeted, the drone strikes serve no purpose other than to terrorize civilian populations. They do generate media attention, but we Americans won't see it unless we go looking for it.
 
2013-04-18 09:53:50 AM

macadamnut: NumberFiveIsAlive:

You are of course welcome to your incorrect opinion. To the farmers and villagers whose families are being targeted, the drone strikes serve no purpose other than to terrorize civilian populations. They do generate media attention, but we Americans won't see it unless we go looking for it.


The US has killed civilians with its drones, but is not seeking to maximize civilian causalties. It's not in our interest to do so - killing innocents only creates more terrorists in the long run.

This bomber sought to maximize civilian damage. Equating him with US military actions is dishonest.
 
2013-04-18 09:57:11 AM

Guns n' Farkin Roses: [lewis.armscontrolwonk.com image 200x150]


I don't care who is consolidating their power.
 
2013-04-18 10:06:38 AM
<b>Pumpernickel bread</b>: <i>Well, not really.  While occasionally there is collateral damage, the drone strikes are against those who are part of an organization that is in a state of war with the U.S.   Now, if the U.S. were to intentionally drop a bomb on a few Afghani families out on a picnic, then you would have a point.</i>

The only problem with that is that you're basing this on info you receive from the US government.

There were drone attacks going on in Yemen for many, many months before they were reported in the USA. And the US military has a strict policy of not commenting on ANY casualties that result from drone strikes.

Now I'm 100% sure that the US military doesn't intentionally target innocent civilians like the farker in Boston, but that being said, we have no idea how much actual collateral damage does occur, because the US does not report it (the military doesn't report it, and most American media don't actually send any reporters to the SITE of the drone strike attack).

Mostly what you get is the major netwroks parroting whatever they get, verbatim, from White House press releases.  So we really have no clue how many actual civilians have died.

And again, if a foreign drone strike that killed 2 "suspected militants" also happened to kill your entire family (by accident), would you honestly say, "Well, hey, my family died in order to protect (insert foreign country name here) and her citizens, I guess I should just get over it."

Doubtful.
 
2013-04-18 10:07:51 AM
Frelling HTML fail
 
2013-04-18 10:10:02 AM
I'm pretty sure they did it not to be the next The Iraq.  People were warning Saddam to condemn 9/11.  They said if he didn't the US would target him.  He didn't.
 
2013-04-18 10:12:09 AM

Shrinkwrap: macadamnut: NumberFiveIsAlive:

You are of course welcome to your incorrect opinion. To the farmers and villagers whose families are being targeted, the drone strikes serve no purpose other than to terrorize civilian populations. They do generate media attention, but we Americans won't see it unless we go looking for it.

The US has killed civilians with its drones, but is not seeking to maximize civilian causalties. It's not in our interest to do so - killing innocents only creates more terrorists in the long run.

This bomber sought to maximize civilian damage. Equating him with US military actions is dishonest.


assuming that the bomber was smart enough to realize he was attacking civilians is dishonest, he probably thought he was making some noble ass statement and that these "sheeple" were destroying the foundation of rights that 'murica was built upon. but I'm just speculating. we always should be the bigger person if we are to be the largest and most powerful military and now that we have to instill our policies while (mostly) hiding in bunkers hundreds of miles away makes us look super bad. tactically you're probably right but in everyone else's eyes we're the one's who are wrong.
 
2013-04-18 10:12:25 AM

Shrinkwrap: macadamnut: NumberFiveIsAlive:

You are of course welcome to your incorrect opinion. To the farmers and villagers whose families are being targeted, the drone strikes serve no purpose other than to terrorize civilian populations. They do generate media attention, but we Americans won't see it unless we go looking for it.

The US has killed civilians with its drones, but is not seeking to maximize civilian causalties. It's not in our interest to do so - killing innocents only creates more terrorists in the long run.

This bomber sought to maximize civilian damage. Equating him with US military actions is dishonest.


Right.  I'll believe that we intentionally target farmers and their families they day you show me drone strike footage on a guy on a tractor, or tending goats with his kids, along with the associated chatter between the pilot, operator, CAOC, and strike controller.  Difficulty: You can't link clearly edited footage.  Anti-war shills have already tried to push crap like that, and failed to convince anyone except other anti-war shills.

An opinion is a statement made based on a personal interpretation of facts.  A fact is something that is (true or false).  I don't need to interpret facts here.  We do not strike farmers.  All drone strikes are targeted at terrorists that carry out attacks primarily against civilian, though sometimes also attack military personnel.  There hasn't been one single strike of any kind carried out by a drone or manned aircraft specifically at farmers and their families.

Terrorize civilian populations?  The US may be the worlds best at killing people and breaking their shiat, but every single airstrike carried out is outnumbered by the countless humanitarian missions we perform.  Airlifting food, medical supplies, clothes, and blankets to Iran, A COUNTRY WE DON'T LIKE ONE DAMN BIT, when they suffer from a major earthquake for just one example of thousands in just the last ten years.

I'm welcome to my own opinions of course, even my incorrect ones.  But this isn't one of those.  Learn the facts from the people that actually do the damn jobs, not from the shills that lie worse than truthers and birthers.
 
2013-04-18 10:12:25 AM

Pumpernickel bread: lawboy87: Man I hate to say it, but he does have a point.

Well, not really.  While occasionally there is collateral damage, the drone strikes are against those who are part of an organization that is in a state of war with the U.S.   Now, if the U.S. were to intentionally drop a bomb on a few Afghani families out on a picnic, then you would have a point.


so accidentally murdering innocent people is OK because...."oops"?
 
2013-04-18 10:12:42 AM

ex0h: lawboy87: Man I hate to say it, but he does have a point.

Yup, he's absolutely on the money. Double standards ftw, but you can bet there will be statements released from various sources talking about Iran's human rights record etc in order to try and discredit/belittle his (correct) statements.


And those statements will be correct too.

World sure is full of assholes, innit?
 
2013-04-18 10:16:17 AM

WTFDYW: The man does have a point.


I disagree with you on a lot of points, but I will agree with you on this.
 
2013-04-18 10:17:37 AM
Let's see. Mourning the victims of an attack then blaming innocents for the attack. Where have I heard that bigoted, barbaric spew before? Oh, I remember!

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.


Who knew we had backward, intolerant, jack-asses that spread hate in order to bring people to them? You know, Secret MuslinsTM.
 
2013-04-18 10:19:02 AM

NumberFiveIsAlive: Shrinkwrap: macadamnut: NumberFiveIsAlive:

You are of course welcome to your incorrect opinion. To the farmers and villagers whose families are being targeted, the drone strikes serve no purpose other than to terrorize civilian populations. They do generate media attention, but we Americans won't see it unless we go looking for it.

The US has killed civilians with its drones, but is not seeking to maximize civilian causalties. It's not in our interest to do so - killing innocents only creates more terrorists in the long run.

This bomber sought to maximize civilian damage. Equating him with US military actions is dishonest.

Right.  I'll believe that we intentionally target farmers and their families they day you show me drone strike footage on a guy on a tractor, or tending goats with his kids, along with the associated chatter between the pilot, operator, CAOC, and strike controller.  Difficulty: You can't link clearly edited footage.  Anti-war shills have already tried to push crap like that, and failed to convince anyone except other anti-war shills.

An opinion is a statement made based on a personal interpretation of facts.  A fact is something that is (true or false).  I don't need to interpret facts here.  We do not strike farmers.  All drone strikes are targeted at terrorists that carry out attacks primarily against civilian, though sometimes also attack military personnel.  There hasn't been one single strike of any kind carried out by a drone or manned aircraft specifically at farmers and their families.

Terrorize civilian populations?  The US may be the worlds best at killing people and breaking their shiat, but every single airstrike carried out is outnumbered by the countless humanitarian missions we perform.  Airlifting food, medical supplies, clothes, and blankets to Iran, A COUNTRY WE DON'T LIKE ONE DAMN BIT, when they suffer from a major earthquake for just one example of thousands in just the last ten years.

I'm welcome to my own opinions of course, even my incorrect ones.  But this isn't one of those.  Learn the facts from the people that actually do the damn jobs, not from the shills that lie worse than truthers and birthers.


opinions like that are why we shouldn't be using drones in my opinion. and yes we terrorize a shiatload of innocent civilians and its human nature for not remembering and our dumbass media's fault for not reporting our good deeds and only reporting "we killed two 'turists today whoopdee doo"
 
2013-04-18 10:20:48 AM

NumberFiveIsAlive: Shrinkwrap: macadamnut: NumberFiveIsAlive:

You are of course welcome to your incorrect opinion. To the farmers and villagers whose families are being targeted, the drone strikes serve no purpose other than to terrorize civilian populations. They do generate media attention, but we Americans won't see it unless we go looking for it.

The US has killed civilians with its drones, but is not seeking to maximize civilian causalties. It's not in our interest to do so - killing innocents only creates more terrorists in the long run.

This bomber sought to maximize civilian damage. Equating him with US military actions is dishonest.

Right.  I'll believe that we intentionally target farmers and their families they day you show me drone strike footage on a guy on a tractor, or tending goats with his kids, along with the associated chatter between the pilot, operator, CAOC, and strike controller.  Difficulty: You can't link clearly edited footage.  Anti-war shills have already tried to push crap like that, and failed to convince anyone except other anti-war shills.

An opinion is a statement made based on a personal interpretation of facts.  A fact is something that is (true or false).  I don't need to interpret facts here.  We do not strike farmers.  All drone strikes are targeted at terrorists that carry out attacks primarily against civilian, though sometimes also attack military personnel.  There hasn't been one single strike of any kind carried out by a drone or manned aircraft specifically at farmers and their families.

Terrorize civilian populations?  The US may be the worlds best at killing people and breaking their shiat, but every single airstrike carried out is outnumbered by the countless humanitarian missions we perform.  Airlifting food, medical supplies, clothes, and blankets to Iran, A COUNTRY WE DON'T LIKE ONE DAMN BIT, when they suffer from a major earthquake for just one example of thousands in just the last ten years.

I'm welcome to my own opinions of c ...


You seem to have a very specific definition of terrorizing civilian populations.  How about you ask the civilians of these countries what they think about what we are doing?
 
2013-04-18 10:21:24 AM

Voiceofreason01: Pumpernickel bread: lawboy87: Man I hate to say it, but he does have a point.

Well, not really.  While occasionally there is collateral damage, the drone strikes are against those who are part of an organization that is in a state of war with the U.S.   Now, if the U.S. were to intentionally drop a bomb on a few Afghani families out on a picnic, then you would have a point.

so accidentally murdering innocent people is OK because...."oops"?


Murder implies intent.  I guarantee you the trigger pullers do NOT intend to kill innocents.  Now, if some of those "civilians" also happen to be actively supporting terrorists by voluntarily providing food and shelter, excuses and cover stories, even arms and equipment and information?  Yeah, that wraps them into the "valid target list".  However this is very difficult to prove, and the media can only label the civilians because locals at the site say they are.

Innocents dying at all pisses us off.  A HUGE portion of PTSD cases of vets stems from accidental killings of innocents, or from having to take down women and children who are being used as shields or even fighters.  It is NOT ok for innocent people to be caught up in a strike.  Blame the assholes to decided to become terrorists in the first place and hole up in homes to begin with, not the folks who go after them.
 
2013-04-18 10:21:31 AM

Shrinkwrap: The US has killed civilians with its drones, but is not seeking to maximize civilian causalties. It's not in our interest to do so - killing innocents only creates more terrorists in the long run.



You and I may not be in the business of selling terrorism to the public, but that doesn't mean it's a bad business to be in.
 
2013-04-18 10:24:28 AM

NumberFiveIsAlive: Terrorize civilian populations?  The US may be the worlds best at killing people and breaking their shiat, but every single airstrike carried out is outnumbered by the countless humanitarian missions we perform.


Well you can't really have it both ways.

Look at Iraq II.  When the US initiates massive country-wide bombing that decimates infrastructure (power plants, sewage treatment facilites, bridges, etc), they can't turn around and expect pats on the back for then FIXING what they broke.

"Shock and Awe" was pretty much the definition of state-sponsored terrorism.  Bomb the crap out of Baghdad with such ferocity that the civilians cower and refuse to fight.

/maybe you even helped pave a few roads in Fallujah
//only after the original roads were destroyed though
 
2013-04-18 10:33:36 AM

Thebloodpotato:
opinions like that are why we shouldn't be using drones in my opinion. and yes we terrorize a shiatload of innocent civilians and its human nature for not remembering and our dumbass media's fault for not reporting our good deeds and only reporting "we killed two 'turists today whoopdee doo"

I agree to an extent.  We use drones because we can't easily get into the area to capture the bastards.  Even our elite DEVGRU had to take an ENORMOUS risk in order to go in there after OBL.  It's just not an option in most cases.  But that doesn't mean we should let the guys go.

However, humans are fallable, and many bad calls get made during operations, especially when you don't have boots on the ground nearby to verify a target.  Personally I blame the bastards that said "We don't need boots on the ground, we can just use drones everywhere for this".

That said, the only BETTER alternatives would be that we find a way to force those nations where drones operate to do the arrestin' themselves, or allow us to go in there and do it.  Since that isn't happening, we're left with plan B.

Source4leko: NumberFiveIsAlive: Shrinkwrap: macadamnut: NumberFiveIsAlive:


Being a smartass doesn't change the fact that some of these civilians are voluntarily helping the terrorists, and therefore will lie and say anything about it.  See funerals for gang bangers here in the US.  The families always say "The po-po was wrong about him.  He was a good kid.  He was just a boy doing boy stuff".

In other cases they are forced to support the terrorists, and they will be killed for saying "Oh thank allah you killed him.  He was eating all of our dates and ruined our outhouse!".

Asking locals as to how they feel when a bad guy goes all explodey on them doesn't change the fact that he was a bad guy.  Now, do I feel bad when a strike goes wrong and there are good people killed?  Again, yes.  However remember those Shia funerals in Sadr city.  Every single American op seemed to be followed up with crowds carrying kids caskets.  How many of you remember that they refused to bury kids bodies, as required by Islam to take place before sunset, in order to trot them out again and again to inflame public opinion?

I didn't think so.
 
2013-04-18 10:40:29 AM

jakomo002: NumberFiveIsAlive: Terrorize civilian populations?  The US may be the worlds best at killing people and breaking their shiat, but every single airstrike carried out is outnumbered by the countless humanitarian missions we perform.

Well you can't really have it both ways.

Look at Iraq II.  When the US initiates massive country-wide bombing that decimates infrastructure (power plants, sewage treatment facilites, bridges, etc), they can't turn around and expect pats on the back for then FIXING what they broke.

"Shock and Awe" was pretty much the definition of state-sponsored terrorism.  Bomb the crap out of Baghdad with such ferocity that the civilians cower and refuse to fight.

/maybe you even helped pave a few roads in Fallujah
//only after the original roads were destroyed though


Shock and Awe was a stupid "Hey look at what we can do" public relations idiocy.  Though it wasn't to keep the civilians from fighting, it was to get the guys with guns to put them down.  This means the military.  Soldiers tend to surrender in droves when they hate being drafted to fight an army that clearly outclasses them 1000 to 1.  Also when they're hungry, and they know the "enemy" will feed them and eventually let them go home.

The only ones looking for those "pats on the back" for fixing what we broke were the suits up top and the contractors benefiting from it.  The boots hated that.  Blow up a road, and we have to fix it to use it later.  Blow up a power plant, we have to fix it to keep the civies from rioting.  Granted, we did it to keep the enemy from being able to communicate and fight back also, but we knew we would have to fix those, and we didn't expect to be thanked for it. Except by, you know, not planting bombs on us.
 
2013-04-18 10:41:01 AM

NumberFiveIsAlive: Thebloodpotato:
opinions like that are why we shouldn't be using drones in my opinion. and yes we terrorize a shiatload of innocent civilians and its human nature for not remembering and our dumbass media's fault for not reporting our good deeds and only reporting "we killed two 'turists today whoopdee doo"

I agree to an extent.  We use drones because we can't easily get into the area to capture the bastards.  Even our elite DEVGRU had to take an ENORMOUS risk in order to go in there after OBL.  It's just not an option in most cases.  But that doesn't mean we should let the guys go.

However, humans are fallable, and many bad calls get made during operations, especially when you don't have boots on the ground nearby to verify a target.  Personally I blame the bastards that said "We don't need boots on the ground, we can just use drones everywhere for this".

That said, the only BETTER alternatives would be that we find a way to force those nations where drones operate to do the arrestin' themselves, or allow us to go in there and do it.  Since that isn't happening, we're left with plan B.

Source4leko: NumberFiveIsAlive: Shrinkwrap: macadamnut: NumberFiveIsAlive:

Being a smartass doesn't change the fact that some of these civilians are voluntarily helping the terrorists, and therefore will lie and say anything about it.  See funerals for gang bangers here in the US.  The families always say "The po-po was wrong about him.  He was a good kid.  He was just a boy doing boy stuff".

In other cases they are forced to support the terrorists, and they will be killed for saying "Oh thank allah you killed him.  He was eating all of our dates and ruined our outhouse!".

Asking locals as to how they feel when a bad guy goes all explodey on them doesn't change the fact that he was a bad guy.  Now, do I feel bad when a strike goes wrong and there are good people killed?  Again, yes.  However remember those Shia funerals in Sadr city.  Every single American op seemed to be followed up with crowds carrying kids caskets.  How many of you remember that they refused to bury kids bodies, as required by Islam to take place before sunset, in order to trot them out again and again to inflame public opinion?

I didn't think so.


wouldn't it be more productive to, instead of force, allow them to learn that they need us?
 
2013-04-18 10:53:39 AM

Thebloodpotato: NumberFiveIsAlive: Thebloodpotato:


wouldn't it be more productive to, instead of force, allow them to learn that they need us?

Allow who?  To learn that they need us?  Need us to do what exactly?
If you're talking about the local population, they're not going to listen well to a country half a world away when radicals they live with daily tell them something different.  They don't NEED us to do anything, except maybe help them with their local terrorist population that terrorize them as well into getting help and shelter.  But again, many do so voluntarily.  We want to get at the bad guys.  They need us only if they're being terrorized themselves, and many of them are convinced that we started the violence.  See "Patriot act".  Terrorists attack us, but we allow a law to pass that restricts and oppresses our own rights.

Any chance peace activists could be convinced that we don't need some small village 13,000 miles away to believe us.  We just need them to recognize that Mr. Explodey was a bad guy trying to kill us, and/or other innocents.  If they don't like us, that's fine.  But if they pick up where Mr. Explodey left off, they might learn the physics behind rapid expansion forces just like he did.
 
2013-04-18 10:54:58 AM
I hate agreeing with this guy.
 
2013-04-18 11:06:17 AM

NumberFiveIsAlive: Shock and Awe was a stupid "Hey look at what we can do" public relations idiocy.  Though it wasn't to keep the civilians from fighting, it was to get the guys with guns to put them down.  This means the military.  Soldiers tend to surrender in droves when they hate being drafted to fight an army that clearly outclasses them 1000 to 1.  Also when they're hungry, and they know the "enemy" will feed them and eventually let them go home.

The only ones looking for those "pats on the back" for fixing what we broke were the suits up top and the contractors benefiting from it.  The boots hated that.  Blow up a road, and we have to fix it to use it later.  Blow up a power plant, we have to fix it to keep the civies from rioting.  Granted, we did it to keep the enemy from being able to communicate and fight back also, but we knew we would have to fix those, and we didn't expect to be thanked for it. Except by, you know, not planting bombs on us.


I agree with almost all of what you say.  The only thing I would point out is that "Shock and Awe" was probably perceived far differently by the people cowering in their bathtubs, holding their crying kids while bombs explode all over their neighbourhoods.

With Iraq, I find it hard to believe that the US military could go SO WRONG when it came to "winning hearts and minds".  Pretty much along every step of the way, they turned hearts and minds against them, radicalizing far more people than they "won over", because they were heavy-handed and looked at things from a military point of view.

They could have won over far more people with compassion and a modiucm of understanding than busting down doors in the night and whisking away "suspected militants" to be tortured in the very same prisons Saddam used.
 
2013-04-18 11:07:21 AM

NumberFiveIsAlive: Bombs designed specifically to inflict maximum carnage among innocent civilians gathered for a marathon are not the same as weapons designed specifically to limit the damage as much as possible to the target, which happens to be the type of terrorists that plan/facilitate/carry out the aformentioned style of attacks.

Not the same at all, he does not have a point, Assholla Dumbhiney needs to STFU.  Innocent civilians getting caught up in a military strike on a valid target are victims too, don't get me wrong.  But they weren't being targeted by us.  Drone jocks do not score points by body count.  It's binary.  Was the target destroyed?  Yes/no.

Terrorists score points by body count and media sensationalism.  Try to remember that farkers.


^What this guy said.
 
2013-04-18 11:13:57 AM

jakomo002: NumberFiveIsAlive: Shock and Awe was a stupid "Hey look at what we can do" public relations idiocy.  Though it wasn't to keep the civilians from fighting, it was to get the guys with guns to put them down.  This means the military.  Soldiers tend to surrender in droves when they hate being drafted to fight an army that clearly outclasses them 1000 to 1.  Also when they're hungry, and they know the "enemy" will feed them and eventually let them go home.

The only ones looking for those "pats on the back" for fixing what we broke were the suits up top and the contractors benefiting from it.  The boots hated that.  Blow up a road, and we have to fix it to use it later.  Blow up a power plant, we have to fix it to keep the civies from rioting.  Granted, we did it to keep the enemy from being able to communicate and fight back also, but we knew we would have to fix those, and we didn't expect to be thanked for it. Except by, you know, not planting bombs on us.

I agree with almost all of what you say.  The only thing I would point out is that "Shock and Awe" was probably perceived far differently by the people cowering in their bathtubs, holding their crying kids while bombs explode all over their neighbourhoods.

With Iraq, I find it hard to believe that the US military could go SO WRONG when it came to "winning hearts and minds".  Pretty much along every step of the way, they turned hearts and minds against them, radicalizing far more people than they "won over", because they were heavy-handed and looked at things from a military point of view.

They could have won over far more people with compassion and a modiucm of understanding than busting down doors in the night and whisking away "suspected militants" to be tortured in the very same prisons Saddam used.


The US military is just that.  Military.  Occupations have never been a solid part of military training.  Kill bad guys, break their shiat, bring in food and other stuff for the civies that suffered from the op.  You want a solid occupation?  Bring back law enforcement.  Let them do their jobs.  The problem is Iraqi cops were corrupt shiatheads that helped to terrorize the people.  Except Senior shiathead decided that means we should completely disband them and re-invent the wheel.

HOLY CRAP did anyone NOT see that decision ending badly?  Boots often facepalm or even facedesk over the decisions made by the brass and the suits.
 
2013-04-18 11:25:14 AM
So, basically this was a "We condemn the bombings done to the infidels in the nation of the Great Satan, for the innocent bloodthirsty Americans do not deserve such death, they instead must be stoned" type of apology.
 
2013-04-18 11:37:16 AM

NumberFiveIsAlive: The US military is just that.  Military.  Occupations have never been a solid part of military training.  Kill bad guys, break their shiat, bring in food and other stuff for the civies that suffered from the op.  You want a solid occupation?  Bring back law enforcement.  Let them do their jobs.  The problem is Iraqi cops were corrupt shiatheads that helped to terrorize the people.  Except Senior shiathead decided that means we should completely disband them and re-invent the wheel.

HOLY CRAP did anyone NOT see that decision ending badly?  Boots often facepalm or even facedesk over the decisions made by the brass and the suits.


Well I figured with all the trillions of dollars, they could have hired some civilian consultants on how not to fark up an occupation.  Like having someone to say, "Wait, you want to disband the entire Iraqi Army, and send them all home WITH THEIR GUNS?!  Seriously?!".

And you can hardly blame the Iraqi police for the shiatstorm that erupted.  They were far lower down on the totem pole than the Occupiers (US Army).

There's no way in hell that the USA said "Okay, let's keep regional policemen in every area, and just go about your business as before."  Because before they were operating under a dictatorship.  Cops under a dictatorship aren't there to "serve and protect" the people, they're there to clamp down on dissent and the law that they serve comes from the one guy at the top (Saddam).  The only justice they dispensed was jackbooted.
 
2013-04-18 11:38:36 AM

jakomo002: NumberFiveIsAlive: Shock and Awe was a stupid "Hey look at what we can do" public relations idiocy.  Though it wasn't to keep the civilians from fighting, it was to get the guys with guns to put them down.  This means the military.  Soldiers tend to surrender in droves when they hate being drafted to fight an army that clearly outclasses them 1000 to 1.  Also when they're hungry, and they know the "enemy" will feed them and eventually let them go home.

The only ones looking for those "pats on the back" for fixing what we broke were the suits up top and the contractors benefiting from it.  The boots hated that.  Blow up a road, and we have to fix it to use it later.  Blow up a power plant, we have to fix it to keep the civies from rioting.  Granted, we did it to keep the enemy from being able to communicate and fight back also, but we knew we would have to fix those, and we didn't expect to be thanked for it. Except by, you know, not planting bombs on us.

I agree with almost all of what you say.  The only thing I would point out is that "Shock and Awe" was probably perceived far differently by the people cowering in their bathtubs, holding their crying kids while bombs explode all over their neighbourhoods.

With Iraq, I find it hard to believe that the US military could go SO WRONG when it came to "winning hearts and minds".  Pretty much along every step of the way, they turned hearts and minds against them, radicalizing far more people than they "won over", because they were heavy-handed and looked at things from a military point of view.

They could have won over far more people with compassion and a modiucm of understanding than busting down doors in the night and whisking away "suspected militants" to be tortured in the very same prisons Saddam used.


Read the Sheriff of Ramadi, about the development of the tactics that agreed with what you just said, which our forces adopted finally, and which led to the "Anbar Awakening."  Much of it was recognizing basic human behavior in an unstable population and turning that to work in our favor, along with the brutality of the insurgents against the common Iraqis finally coming back on them.

That being said, when our extensive (eventually) biometrics systems (PDF) & spec ops intel networks reached a conclusion on a "real-bad-guy" target, I have very little problem with him being taken in or just taken out... many/most captures however were based on pretty hard evidence from about 2006 on (prior to that, yeah, everyone was just scrambling though).

/Sheriff of Ramadi is the 4th in a series of very up-close-&-accurate books on SEALs, written by a former SEAL and BUD/S Honor Man himself Dick Couch, so he had incredible access and literary permissions
 
2013-04-18 11:44:06 AM
Great, now even Khamenei sounds sane.
 
2013-04-18 11:47:11 AM
i'm pulling troops out of this debate
 
2013-04-18 11:49:29 AM

mat catastrophe: epyonyx: Anyone else think that the bombing was just a random nutjob? Wouldn't a terrorist group have claimed this by now?

Yes and yes.


This may be a non-AWing nutjob/s.If he/she/they are content with staying under the radar, this may lead to... interesting times.
 
2013-04-18 11:49:37 AM
THX 1138:

But I've been led to believe that the world is a binary place and everything he does or says is automatically wrong.  You mean it's more complex than that?

Huh, who took responsibility for "9/11"? Years later some agency eventually produced a clip  of Bin Laden purporting to gloat, but IIRC it was the Bush administration that said Al Qaeda did it.

I still suspect it was some shadowy something that would benefit from increased FUD.

In the old days we'd blame the CIA or some other part of of the "security" apparatus, or maybe some demented far-left group hoping to provoke a revolutionary situation by increasing repression (till it became obvious that that won't work because most Americans LIKE being repressed), or maybe a demented far-left group created or taken over by FBI agents or snitch-provocateurs (such as the SLA) to give hoi polloi an excuse to beg for more "protection." Then it became Lone (White Male) Nuts like Tin McVeigh (who didn't act alone) or the Unabomber (who does seem to fit the profile); then of course since the unfortinate events in Manhattan we've been conditioned to look for "Islamic extremists," usually but not always of foreign origin.

SO. Remember those "terrorist plots" the FBI "exposed" that turned out to be demented domestic Muslims the FBI heard about and then hooked up with agents who'd convince them to conspire to commit a terrorist act and even provide them with bombs (that would turn out to be duds) so the FBI could arrest them and brag about how well they "protected" us?

We'll probably never know if I'm correct, such things tend to be hushed up for decades, but my suspicion falls on an FBI-inspired fake bomb plot that somehow used real bombs, either by accident or design: maybe the bombers figured out how to dupe the FBI, or maybe the FBI was supposed to switch the bombs with duds at the last minute, or swoop down just before the real bombs were set to go off and save the day and missed a couple (perhaps because the bomber could get the bombs where they were supposed to go).

Or perhaps it could be an old-fashioned double or even triple agent situation. Maybe some right-wing extremists join the FBI to combat Muslim extremists and finagles a way to get involved in a switcheroo that doesn't work so the FBI will get hoodwinked into cracking down on Muslims and "saving America from sharia law." Or maybe some FBI task force or lone wolf deliberately set up a real bombing for a change. Real bombs do create panic better than fake ones.

Or maybe this was due to a rivalry inside the FBI or maybe between the FBI and Boston police: e.g., maybe some Boston cops cooked up this high-pressure plot to discredit or get rid of an FBI agent or two who got too close to exposing police corruption.

Or maybe it could be a real bomb plot masterminded by some Syrian goverment agency, meant to put the blame on an alleged Al Qaeda affiliate that has something to do a group involved in the uprising, like Al Nusra. Syria's goal would be change US policy by going "See? These are the people the US government supports against us!"

In any case, regardless of who the patsy will be, the Lone Nut theory seems a bit too far-fetched. How can the FBI protect us from those without putting implants in everybody?

OOPS.
 
2013-04-18 11:58:12 AM

Seraphym: Read the Sheriff of Ramadi, about the development of the tactics that agreed with what you just said, which our forces adopted finally, and which led to the "Anbar Awakening."  Much of it was recognizing basic human behavior in an unstable population and turning that to work in our favor, along with the brutality of the insurgents against the common Iraqis finally coming back on them.


I'll check it out.

My point is that they should have been on it right away, not after 2006.  You can't unkill people, and you can't win people's hearts and minds after, through incompetence, you've made them fear and distrust you.

No mulligans
 
2013-04-18 12:29:13 PM
NumberFiveIsAlive:

The US military is just that.  Military.  Occupations have never been a solid part of military training.

So unless the US is going to stop "liberating" foreign countries that'll have to change: maybe a vastly increased MP presence directed at the civilian population with its leadership augmented by FBI teams on special duty and backed by specially trained regular troops when necessary. And don't forget surveillance drones, wiretabs, local snitches, etc. etc.

It'll also help to have local puppet government agencies, political parties, educational organizations and social service agencies set up, as well as US Peace Corps or tame Red Cross. Use East Germany as a model. The idea would be that the USA is a good buddy come to protect the local population from extremists, dictators, drug cartels or whatever, and to help them learn to protect themselves (though of course we'll never abandon them). "Help the cause of Freedom and Democracy! Join the US-Syrian Friendship Society!"

But, as the Soviets did in East Germany, don't trust the local cops, troops or government with any real power until you bring in a generation that you yourself has trained and indoctrinated, and always make sure that every domestic anything has US "advisors" and "reinforcements" and uses US-made equipment.

The alternative is to let foreign countries run their own shows in their own ways, which of course simply can't be allowed.

A good thing will be that vastly increased and deepened "liberations" will help solve the US unemployment problem. Would you rather be homeless under a bridge or helping to kick the Syrians around? You'll get paid, room & board, medical care, special training, and even lots of gyms and plasma TVs.

The USSR provided us with a model that worked until years of CIA hassling eventually weakened it. And with the CIA on our side how can we ever lose?

It's time patriotic Americans did their duty to Humanity by helping the Forces of Freedom liberate every country we possibly can. Only if the USA rules the world can we keep everybody safe from oppression and exploitation. (Or will we let the UN do it? Hmmm?)
 
2013-04-18 12:43:26 PM
jakomo002:

There's no way in hell that the USA said "Okay, let's keep regional policemen in every area, and just go about your business as before."  Because before they were operating under a dictatorship.  Cops under a dictatorship aren't there to "serve and protect" the people, they're there to clamp down on dissent and the law that they serve comes from the one guy at the top (Saddam).  The only justice they dispensed was jackbooted.

History shows that jackbooted thugs usually enjoy being jackbooted thugs more than they care about any particular ideology, and they usually stay loyal to those who pay them well. And if the locals are used to that type of policing it'll be a while before they learn how "real" police in a "free" society like say Boston are supposed to act, so it'll be a while before they learn how to be "free" citizens instead of oppressed masses. In the meantime they'll hate the foreign devils.

So why bother replacing the local cops etc., at least for 15-20 years? Pay them better than they're used to, give them plasma screens, lots of porn, nifty gadgets of destruction and of course hookers & blow, and let 'em serve their new masters: US. At least till we've raised and trained a new generation that can keep their sheeple down in our enlightened & civilized manner.

It worked for the Soviets for decades. Learn from that example. Spread Freedom World-Wide!
 
2013-04-18 12:46:39 PM
"The Islamic Republic of Iran, which follows the logic Islam, is opposed to any bombings and killings of innocent people..."

I think this is something we can all get behind.
 
2013-04-18 02:49:19 PM
wise words from a wise man.
 
2013-04-18 08:34:00 PM

OtherLittleGuy: First the Pakistan Taliban and the Ayatollah. I love them coming out of the woodwork to say "It wasn't me! It wasn't me!"


And why are they doing this in that dreamworld of yours?
 
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