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(The Atlantic)   In a masterpiece of goalpost-moving, columnist opines that the Gosnell case is the anti-abortion movement's fault because they didn't badger his clinic enough   (theatlantic.com) divider line 184
    More: Interesting, Kermit Gosnell, Dr. Kermit Gosnell, RH Reality Check, NARAL Pro-Choice America, Amanda Marcotte, Nexis, gag orders, intelligence  
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1535 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 Apr 2013 at 9:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-17 09:29:19 AM
The article does make an interesting point: how can there be people camped out there with the stated intent of shutting the place down not have noticed anything?

The most likely answer, to me, is that these protestors had no real interaction with the women going there other than screaming "MURDERER WHORE!" at them.  And the women who had been victimized by this true monster didn't feel like they could get any real help from them.
 
2013-04-17 09:34:55 AM
Another detail I find disturbing is that some of the workers at the clinic complained to the state board about it - and nothing was done.
 
2013-04-17 09:43:02 AM
And as far as [Edel Finnegan] is concerned, every abortion clinic is a house of horrors, full stop, meaning that Gosnell's was no different: "What's happening at this abortion facility, it's happening at every abortion facility."

Getting an abortion at eight weeks, when the fetus is just on the verge of detectability with an ultrasound, is exactly the same as giving birth to a live baby and snipping its spinal cord. Got it.
 
2013-04-17 09:45:08 AM

vernonFL: Another detail I find disturbing is that some of the workers at the clinic complained to the state board about it - and nothing was done.


That's the real story here - the stunning incompetence of the Pennsylvania government seems to be demonstrated several times a year.

If this is going on in Philadelphia, what the hell is happening in the rest of the state?
 
2013-04-17 09:48:14 AM
The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.
 
2013-04-17 09:49:21 AM
Is this related to the trial that the media is blacking out that I keep hearing about everywhere constantly?
 
2013-04-17 09:49:34 AM

YixilTesiphon: That's the real story here - the stunning incompetence of the Pennsylvania government seems to be demonstrated several times a year.


Supposedly abortion clinics don't have to meet standards that other medical offices do - for example I heard that Dentists are regulated more than abortion clinics as far as cleanliness standards and such.

I don't know if that last statement is even true. But that is what my anti-abortion friends have told me.
 
2013-04-17 09:50:37 AM

Serious Black: And as far as [Edel Finnegan] is concerned, every abortion clinic is a house of horrors, full stop, meaning that Gosnell's was no different: "What's happening at this abortion facility, it's happening at every abortion facility."

Getting an abortion at eight weeks, when the fetus is just on the verge of detectability with an ultrasound, is exactly the same as giving birth to a live baby and snipping its spinal cord. Got it.


If you're pro-life yeah, that's exactly it. Taking the morning after pill is no different than grabbing a toddler and bashing its head against the wall.

And because that's insane the moderates have generally won out on the abortion issue.
 
2013-04-17 09:50:50 AM

YixilTesiphon: vernonFL: Another detail I find disturbing is that some of the workers at the clinic complained to the state board about it - and nothing was done.

That's the real story here - the stunning incompetence of the Pennsylvania government seems to be demonstrated several times a year.

If this is going on in Philadelphia, what the hell is happening in the rest of the state?


I for one am shocked at this unprecedented example of Pennsylvania public employees deliberately turning a blind eye toward systematic violent crimes against children.
 
2013-04-17 09:53:14 AM
Well, one could certainly argue that the anti-abortion movement helped him out by over-regulating all the other clinics in the area into closure, forcing women to attend his horrific death shop instead. Of course, that doesn't make him any less guilty or disgusting, before any trolls jump on me for "Defending" his oxygen-thieving ass.
 
2013-04-17 09:54:39 AM

odinsposse: Serious Black: And as far as [Edel Finnegan] is concerned, every abortion clinic is a house of horrors, full stop, meaning that Gosnell's was no different: "What's happening at this abortion facility, it's happening at every abortion facility."

Getting an abortion at eight weeks, when the fetus is just on the verge of detectability with an ultrasound, is exactly the same as giving birth to a live baby and snipping its spinal cord. Got it.

If you're pro-life yeah, that's exactly it. Taking the morning after pill is no different than grabbing a toddler and bashing its head against the wall.

And because that's insane the moderates have generally won out on the abortion issue.


Yeah, conflating a premeditated murder with taking Plan B is pretty damn ludicrous.
 
2013-04-17 09:58:39 AM

vernonFL: Supposedly abortion clinics don't have to meet standards that other medical offices do - for example I heard that Dentists are regulated more than abortion clinics as far as cleanliness standards and such. I don't know if that last statement is even true. But that is what my anti-abortion friends have told me.


Your anti-choice friends lied to you. Pennsylvania has very strict laws.
 
2013-04-17 09:59:03 AM

Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.


This would make way more sense if this happened in an alleyway instead of a supposedly legitimate clinic.

This is nothing more or less than a murder case.
 
2013-04-17 10:00:58 AM
This is totally the fault of people who disagree with my politics and I desperately need to make that point clear so that I can feel validated.
 
2013-04-17 10:01:47 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: Well, one could certainly argue that the anti-abortion movement helped him out by over-regulating all the other clinics in the area into closure, forcing women to attend his horrific death shop instead. Of course, that doesn't make him any less guilty or disgusting, before any trolls jump on me for "Defending" his oxygen-thieving ass.


I think this, also.  When you badger all the conscientious doctors who would have performed abortions in a safe, sterile, professional manner but for being called murderers, getting death threats and having threats of their places of business bombed, you run the risk of being left with less caring, less careful, less professional doctors doing abortions instead.  Make abortions completely illegal, and this guys clinic is going to look like Sloan-Kettering.
 
2013-04-17 10:03:42 AM

YixilTesiphon: what the hell is happening in the rest of the state?


www.landbin.com

// pic is actually of MN/WI
// there is nothing in PA once you get outside the 4 "cities" (Phila/Pgh/HBurg/Scranton)
 
2013-04-17 10:09:32 AM

Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.


Not accurate.
The clinic model was once believed to be a win for women's rights as it kept abortion out of the control of the hospital industry. Didnt work out so well but facts are facts.

Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.
 
2013-04-17 10:10:46 AM

vernonFL: YixilTesiphon: That's the real story here - the stunning incompetence of the Pennsylvania government seems to be demonstrated several times a year.

Supposedly abortion clinics don't have to meet standards that other medical offices do - for example I heard that Dentists are regulated more than abortion clinics as far as cleanliness standards and such.

I don't know if that last statement is even true. But that is what my anti-abortion friends have told me.


Well, for one thing, I doubt there's all that many facilities that specialize in abortions. Most of these are general women's health clinics, that also perform abortions. Most of them aren't non-profit facilities, so they couldn't specialize in giving abortions even if they wanted to, unless every other place where a woman could get an abortion was somehow pushed into not doing those, leaving you the only game in town. It's a lot like with Planned Parenthood, where something like 3% of what they do involves abortions.
 
2013-04-17 10:11:36 AM

part of the problem: Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?


Every liberal I've seen cover this, including the pro-choice feminist blogosphere who have been covering this story from the very beginning, have said exactly that. Maybe lay off the blanket statements.
 
2013-04-17 10:12:15 AM

part of the problem: Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?


Which has been pointed out many times in this thread and others on the subject.

part of the problem: The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter.


Oh you're just a troll.  Nevermind.
 
2013-04-17 10:12:51 AM

Serious Black: And as far as [Edel Finnegan] is concerned, every abortion clinic is a house of horrors, full stop, meaning that Gosnell's was no different: "What's happening at this abortion facility, it's happening at every abortion facility."

Getting an abortion at eight weeks, when the fetus is just on the verge of detectability with an ultrasound, is exactly the same as giving birth to a live baby and snipping its spinal cord. Got it.


According to extreme "pro-life" advocates, an unintentional spontaneous expulsion of an unknowingly recently fertilized egg triggered by use of aspirin taken to relieve the discomfort of a minor headache is logically equivalent to giving birth to a live baby and snipping its spinal cord. Extreme "pro-life" advocates lack any reason or rationality.
 
2013-04-17 10:12:54 AM

part of the problem: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Not accurate.
The clinic model was once believed to be a win for women's rights as it kept abortion out of the control of the hospital industry. Didnt work out so well but facts are facts.

Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.


When liberals start bombing evangelical's churches, harassing preachers' families, standing in front of churches preaching about the evils of their faith, and shooting preachers, then you might have room to talk. Until then, shut the fark up.
 
2013-04-17 10:13:20 AM

Fart_Machine: Oh you're just a troll.  Nevermind.


Doesn't his username make that obvious?
 
2013-04-17 10:16:08 AM
The people who have politicized this make me sick. Besides, it's their side's fault this happened.
 
2013-04-17 10:19:01 AM

part of the problem: Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts.



I'm a liberal, and like practically all of us dirty libs I will say that this was a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur.

Have you been around here long? Straw man arguments like that thing you pulled out of your ass about impure thoughts won't get you very far.
 
2013-04-17 10:21:47 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: Well, one could certainly argue that the anti-abortion movement helped him out by over-regulating all the other clinics in the area into closure, forcing women to attend his horrific death shop instead. Of course, that doesn't make him any less guilty or disgusting, before any trolls jump on me for "Defending" his oxygen-thieving ass.


one could not argue that because it isn't true.
 
2013-04-17 10:22:35 AM
Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.
 
2013-04-17 10:23:26 AM

Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.


This is apparently what happens when you don't too ;)
 
2013-04-17 10:30:03 AM

YixilTesiphon: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

This would make way more sense if this happened in an alleyway instead of a supposedly legitimate clinic.

This is nothing more or less than a murder case.


"Legitimate"?

Have you SEEN the dump he was working in?
 
2013-04-17 10:32:06 AM

Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.


Exactly right. Bloody coat-hangers and dead women are what they apparently wanted, and I suppose it's what they're gonna get.
 
2013-04-17 10:32:51 AM

Nabb1: The people who have politicized this make me sick. Besides, it's their side's fault this happened.


Politicizing events like this and Sandy Hooks is what makes America great.
 
2013-04-17 10:34:37 AM

QuesoDelicioso: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Exactly right. Bloody coat-hangers and dead women are what they apparently wanted, and I suppose it's what they're gonna get.


no, quite false. This is Philly. There are a number of Planned Parenthood locations and other safe and clean women's health clinics a short distance away from Kermit the Monster's clinic.
 
2013-04-17 10:36:54 AM

Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.


Agreed. Unlike what the mouthbreather brigade might say, Liberals, Moderates, and genuine Conservatives (Such as myself) all want Abortion to be legal and SAFE. Making abortion illegal would mean an exponential increase in this very situation.

This is and remains a healthcare issue. It is a genuine barometer of just how bad Healthcare in this country really is. The fact that it's an abortion clinic is why you are hearing about it, but I am sure if you peruse your local paper the last three years, you can find a story of an unsanitary healthcare provider shut down. Heck, not so long ago when I was in Nashville, there was this story about this place improperly disposing of dead bodies. To me, that's far worse, and I wonder just how many places slip through the cracks...
 
2013-04-17 10:37:20 AM

skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.

This is apparently what happens when you don't too ;)



Are you saying oversight and safety were being administered over there?
 
2013-04-17 10:39:01 AM

Lord_Baull: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.

This is apparently what happens when you don't too ;)


Are you saying oversight and safety were being administered over there?


clearly not. Are you saying we don't currently have oversight over the abortion business?
 
2013-04-17 10:39:51 AM
While it may be worth the local and national news organizations asking themselves why they didn't cover it, that is itself not news.  They absolutely shouldn't be putting this discussion about their own journalism standards out there as news to the public.  They SHOULD be covering why the state and federal regulatory bodies didn't take care of it.

"NEWS" is about news, not about news organizations.
 
2013-04-17 10:40:07 AM

Lord_Baull: Nabb1: The people who have politicized this make me sick. Besides, it's their side's fault this happened.

Politicizing events like this and Sandy Hooks is what makes America great.


Aaaand there is so much wrong with that attempt at snark I don't know where to begin.
 
2013-04-17 10:43:13 AM

skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.

This is apparently what happens when you don't too ;)


Are you saying oversight and safety were being administered over there?

clearly not. Are you saying we don't currently have oversight over the abortion business?


Lord Baull is right. We simply do not have genuinely good oversight over a lot of things. Medical facilities are one. And if you want to keep yourself up at night, look at the USDA. Now excuse me, citizen, my tax dollars will be used to buy more F-22's and tax cuts for wealthy idiots.
 
2013-04-17 10:43:31 AM

skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.

This is apparently what happens when you don't too ;)


Are you saying oversight and safety were being administered over there?

clearly not. Are you saying we don't currently have oversight over the abortion business?



Um, no?
 
2013-04-17 10:44:28 AM

Lord_Baull: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.

This is apparently what happens when you don't too ;)


Are you saying oversight and safety were being administered over there?

clearly not. Are you saying we don't currently have oversight over the abortion business?


Um, no?


that was the snark.
Nevermind
 
2013-04-17 10:44:48 AM

part of the problem: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Not accurate.
The clinic model was once believed to be a win for women's rights as it kept abortion out of the control of the hospital industry. Didnt work out so well but facts are facts.

Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.


Ok! This is completely farked up. This monster sould have his legs cut off with a dull hatchet and left in a locked basement. Or tossed to an angry mob to be beaten to death. Or crushed slowly feet first under a steamroller. Or have all his limbs ripped off with a blender and left to bleed out. Or be tied to a stake in the middle of a basin of sulfuric acid. Acually, all of these are to good for him.
 
2013-04-17 10:46:25 AM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.

This is apparently what happens when you don't too ;)


Are you saying oversight and safety were being administered over there?

clearly not. Are you saying we don't currently have oversight over the abortion business?

Lord Baull is right. We simply do not have genuinely good oversight over a lot of things. Medical facilities are one. And if you want to keep yourself up at night, look at the USDA. Now excuse me, citizen, my tax dollars will be used to buy more F-22's and tax cuts for wealthy idiots.


Dunno, my experiences with doctor's offices and hospitals have been good ones. I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is. Someone should start a medical office inspection business and give out grades to pick up the slack where it exists. Maybe the AMA can do it
 
2013-04-17 10:48:09 AM

cefm: While it may be worth the local and national news organizations asking themselves why they didn't cover it, that is itself not news.


Au contraire. It may not be LATE-BREAKING EYEWITNESS NEWS NOW TAKES YOU TO THE SCENE, but it is newsworthy - it's informational, and far more so than "was Kim Kardashian paid to get fat?"

My own theory is that it somehow "flew under the radar", or people were so disgusted by it when it was first reported that they stopped reporting on it. I heard this story break (or maybe it was even old then?) about a month ago on the radio, then nothing for 3 weeks, and now it's back because "it wasn't covered"? The details of this case being so obviously gruesome and the fail being spread to so many people - both medicos and government, public and private - I'm not surprised the story didn't look like it had legs* until the pro-lifers started humping it.

*pun not intended, but I won't be upset if you chuckle.
 
2013-04-17 10:49:30 AM

Richard C Stanford: part of the problem: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Not accurate.
The clinic model was once believed to be a win for women's rights as it kept abortion out of the control of the hospital industry. Didnt work out so well but facts are facts.

Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.

Ok! This is completely farked up. This monster sould have his legs cut off with a dull hatchet and left in a locked basement. Or tossed to an angry mob to be beaten to death. Or crushed slowly feet first under a steamroller. Or have all his limbs ripped off with a blender and left to bleed out. Or be tied to a stake in the middle of a basin of sulfuric acid. Acually, all of these are to good for him.


Hey man, calm down. His fark name is "Part of the problem", so he's at least honest about his intentions. Besides, it was a brilliant troll. 9/10. Good job. Come in, threadshiat, cause a mess, lol at comments like yours.
 
2013-04-17 10:49:59 AM
skullkrusher:  I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is.


If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem.
That's kinda like saying, "The meat I get at my grocery store is okay, so I'm not sure there are any stores selling rancid meat."
 
2013-04-17 10:52:46 AM

skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.

This is apparently what happens when you don't too ;)


Are you saying oversight and safety were being administered over there?

clearly not. Are you saying we don't currently have oversight over the abortion business?

Lord Baull is right. We simply do not have genuinely good oversight over a lot of things. Medical facilities are one. And if you want to keep yourself up at night, look at the USDA. Now excuse me, citizen, my tax dollars will be used to buy more F-22's and tax cuts for wealthy idiots.

Dunno, my experiences with doctor's offices and hospitals have been good ones. I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is. Someone should start a medical office inspection business and give out grades to pick up the slack where it exists. Maybe the AMA can do it


Better yet, maybe the AMA could actually get some funding. You make a better argument for larger government oversight, which we do need in this situation. Kudos for coming around.
 
2013-04-17 10:53:49 AM

Lord_Baull: skullkrusher:  I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is.


If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem.
That's kinda like saying, "The meat I get at my grocery store is okay, so I'm not sure there are any stores selling rancid meat."


I don't know that it occurs anywhere. I suppose it is likely as no oversight is perfect, I've never seen it and I've never heard anyone I know say they had a disgusting experience at the dentist or gyno outside of the necessary disgustingness of those 2 sorts of visits.

We could have a government overseer in every doctor's office in the country and have an overseer of the overseer to make sure the first isn't on the take and still not eliminate the possibility of it happening.
 
2013-04-17 10:54:37 AM
Is it communism?
 
2013-04-17 10:54:40 AM

Lord_Baull: skullkrusher:  I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is.


If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem.
That's kinda like saying, "The meat I get at my grocery store is okay, so I'm not sure there are any stores selling rancid meat."


Don't make him try and think outside his bubble.
 
2013-04-17 10:55:05 AM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: Take a good look pro-lifers. This is what happens when you remove the oversight and safety from the procedure.

Abortion won't magically disappear if it's outlawed anymore than marijuana has.

This is apparently what happens when you don't too ;)


Are you saying oversight and safety were being administered over there?

clearly not. Are you saying we don't currently have oversight over the abortion business?

Lord Baull is right. We simply do not have genuinely good oversight over a lot of things. Medical facilities are one. And if you want to keep yourself up at night, look at the USDA. Now excuse me, citizen, my tax dollars will be used to buy more F-22's and tax cuts for wealthy idiots.

Dunno, my experiences with doctor's offices and hospitals have been good ones. I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is. Someone should start a medical office inspection business and give out grades to pick up the slack where it exists. Maybe the AMA can do it

Better yet, maybe the AMA could actually get some funding. You make a better argument for larger government oversight, which we do need in this situation. Kudos for coming around.


coming around to what?
The AMA has over 200,000 members. I think they'd have the funding if they wanted it.
 
2013-04-17 10:55:41 AM

Wessoman: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher:  I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is.


If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem.
That's kinda like saying, "The meat I get at my grocery store is okay, so I'm not sure there are any stores selling rancid meat."

Don't make him try and think outside his bubble.


hehe what the fark are you talking about, Mr Genuine Conservative?
 
2013-04-17 10:56:37 AM

skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher:  I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is.


If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem.
That's kinda like saying, "The meat I get at my grocery store is okay, so I'm not sure there are any stores selling rancid meat."

I don't know that it occurs anywhere. I suppose it is likely as no oversight is perfect, I've never seen it and I've never heard anyone I know say they had a disgusting experience at the dentist or gyno outside of the necessary disgustingness of those 2 sorts of visits.

We could have a government overseer in every doctor's office in the country and have an overseer of the overseer to make sure the first isn't on the take and still not eliminate the possibility of it happening.


Or, we could, I dunno, just have regular inspections that are random. You can lay off the hyperbole button for a bit, chuckles. More oversight here is a good thing.
 
2013-04-17 10:58:50 AM

Dr Dreidel: My own theory is that it somehow "flew under the radar", or people were so disgusted by it when it was first reported that they stopped reporting on it. I heard this story break (or maybe it was even old then?) about a month ago on the radio, then nothing for 3 weeks, and now it's back because "it wasn't covered"? The details of this case being so obviously gruesome and the fail being spread to so many people - both medicos and government, public and private - I'm not surprised the story didn't look like it had legs* until the pro-lifers started humping it.


I think part of the problem really is how gross this is.  Obviously there's a lot of terrible crime out there - to pick another one from PA Sandusky was big news and that was horrible - but Gosnell is only a step or two removed from Josef Mengele.  I couldn't finish the one longer, more detailed piece about Gosnell because it's just so gruesome.  Also, there's not much controversy because everyone agrees this guy is a monster.
 
2013-04-17 11:00:17 AM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher:  I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is.


If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem.
That's kinda like saying, "The meat I get at my grocery store is okay, so I'm not sure there are any stores selling rancid meat."

I don't know that it occurs anywhere. I suppose it is likely as no oversight is perfect, I've never seen it and I've never heard anyone I know say they had a disgusting experience at the dentist or gyno outside of the necessary disgustingness of those 2 sorts of visits.

We could have a government overseer in every doctor's office in the country and have an overseer of the overseer to make sure the first isn't on the take and still not eliminate the possibility of it happening.

Or, we could, I dunno, just have regular inspections that are random. You can lay off the hyperbole button for a bit, chuckles. More oversight here is a good thing.


It's hyperbole to make a point. Nothing we can do would insure that there are no issues like this anywhere, even "random inspections". it was in response to his post in which he said "If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem. "
Yes, this is a bad thing if it happens anywhere. However, I don't know how epidemic it is - you'd think this sort of thing would be in the news more often if it were widespread and no matter WHAT we do, there is no guarantee that it isn't going to happen so perhaps we ARE doing enough and stories like Kermit here are the examples of the inevitable instances where some places fall through the cracks.
 
2013-04-17 11:00:39 AM

skullkrusher: Wessoman: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher:  I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is.


If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem.
That's kinda like saying, "The meat I get at my grocery store is okay, so I'm not sure there are any stores selling rancid meat."

Don't make him try and think outside his bubble.

hehe what the fark are you talking about, Mr Genuine Conservative?


Government is designed for the safety and welfare of the people. HERE is where I want more government oversight. To make sure the doctor you go to doesn't kill you. To make sure the car I drive won't fall apart. To make sure the food you eat won't poison you. To make sure the company I work for isn't polluting our natural resources. Its not to tell me how to think, or who I can and can't vote for, or what should be illegal because of some magical sky god and his followers.

So if this clinic was bad, let's take steps to keep this from happening again. End of.
 
2013-04-17 11:01:40 AM

Wessoman: Government is designed for the safety and welfare of the people. HERE is where I want more government oversight. To make sure the doctor you go to doesn't kill you. To make sure the car I drive won't fall apart. To make sure the food you eat won't poison you. To make sure the company I work for isn't polluting our natural resources. Its not to tell me how to think, or who I can and can't vote for, or what should be illegal because of some magical sky god and his followers.


all sounds reasonable to me. However, you do enjoy assumptions, dontcha?
 
2013-04-17 11:01:56 AM

Dr Dreidel: cefm: While it may be worth the local and national news organizations asking themselves why they didn't cover it, that is itself not news.

Au contraire. It may not be LATE-BREAKING EYEWITNESS NEWS NOW TAKES YOU TO THE SCENE, but it is newsworthy - it's informational, and far more so than "was Kim Kardashian paid to get fat?"

My own theory is that it somehow "flew under the radar", or people were so disgusted by it when it was first reported that they stopped reporting on it. I heard this story break (or maybe it was even old then?) about a month ago on the radio, then nothing for 3 weeks, and now it's back because "it wasn't covered"? The details of this case being so obviously gruesome and the fail being spread to so many people - both medicos and government, public and private - I'm not surprised the story didn't look like it had legs* until the pro-lifers started humping it.

*pun not intended, but I won't be upset if you chuckle.


It was covered by some news outlets though. Local Philadelphia outlets covered it a decent amount. NPR put out an article. A number of news outlets that cover issues related to abortion and contraception wrote about it. The problem is that to many "conservatives," there's only two settings in the news: complete blackout and carpet bombing. If something wasn't carpet bombed (like Benghazi), then it was a complete blackout in the news.
 
2013-04-17 11:03:37 AM

skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Lord_Baull: skullkrusher:  I'd imagine somewhere there are problems but I don't no how epidemic it is.


If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem.
That's kinda like saying, "The meat I get at my grocery store is okay, so I'm not sure there are any stores selling rancid meat."

I don't know that it occurs anywhere. I suppose it is likely as no oversight is perfect, I've never seen it and I've never heard anyone I know say they had a disgusting experience at the dentist or gyno outside of the necessary disgustingness of those 2 sorts of visits.

We could have a government overseer in every doctor's office in the country and have an overseer of the overseer to make sure the first isn't on the take and still not eliminate the possibility of it happening.

Or, we could, I dunno, just have regular inspections that are random. You can lay off the hyperbole button for a bit, chuckles. More oversight here is a good thing.

It's hyperbole to make a point. Nothing we can do would insure that there are no issues like this anywhere, even "random inspections". it was in response to his post in which he said "If it occurs anywhere, it is a problem. "
Yes, this is a bad thing if it happens anywhere. However, I don't know how epidemic it is - you'd think this sort of thing would be in the news more often if it were widespread and no matter WHAT we do, there is no guarantee that it isn't going to happen so perhaps we ARE doing enough and stories like Kermit here are the examples of the inevitable instances where some places fall through the cracks.


Your hyperbole makes a point but it doesn't make sense. Then we need an army to guard against our army to make sure it doesn't do anything illegal, and we need another army to guard against that army. Or maybe we need another President in case the current president is bad, and we have another president oversee the President overseer. NO. Remember, I am a true conservative, so I do not like redundancies in government. Just make government work efficiently in the first place.

Of course, never mind the modern GOP has the DHS, FBI and CIA all doing the same thing...
 
2013-04-17 11:03:38 AM

Wessoman: Government is designed for the safety and welfare of the people. HERE is where I want more government oversight. To make sure the doctor you go to doesn't kill you. To make sure the car I drive won't fall apart. To make sure the food you eat won't poison you. To make sure the company I work for isn't polluting our natural resources.


The free market can do that better than any government!
 
2013-04-17 11:03:39 AM
the troll is strong in this one.

i see the lesser trolls have come to feed on the leavings.
 
2013-04-17 11:06:53 AM

Bloody William: Wessoman: Government is designed for the safety and welfare of the people. HERE is where I want more government oversight. To make sure the doctor you go to doesn't kill you. To make sure the car I drive won't fall apart. To make sure the food you eat won't poison you. To make sure the company I work for isn't polluting our natural resources.

The free market can do that better than any government!


Aaaand the Free Market has given us a serious global warming problem, and GMOs in our food. It actually does hold back technology at times. But it's dumb to say that the Free Market has the answers to all problems. It's like saying God is the answer to everything. It sounds good on paper, but it's laughably impractical in practice.
 
2013-04-17 11:07:45 AM

skullkrusher: Wessoman: Government is designed for the safety and welfare of the people. HERE is where I want more government oversight. To make sure the doctor you go to doesn't kill you. To make sure the car I drive won't fall apart. To make sure the food you eat won't poison you. To make sure the company I work for isn't polluting our natural resources. Its not to tell me how to think, or who I can and can't vote for, or what should be illegal because of some magical sky god and his followers.

all sounds reasonable to me. However, you do enjoy assumptions, dontcha?


As do you, mister Slippery Slope hyperbole.
 
2013-04-17 11:08:10 AM

Serious Black: It was covered by some news outlets though.


I heard it on my local (DC) CBS affiliate. WTOP runs the "CBS World News Roundup" every half-hour (which I believe is syndicated to all CBS affiliates) and I was hearing it as part of that, not "local" coverage. That's millions of people right there, and in a very influential market (the 7th biggest media market in the country, over 4.5 million people).

Anyone who didn't hear this a month ago is, as you and others have said, either willfully ignorant of media sources that aren't their preferred outlets (in which case, blame the specific sources you consume rather than "the media") or dishonest.
 
2013-04-17 11:11:36 AM
Wow, normally when you hear "Abortion House of Horror", you just move to another seat on the bus to get away from the raving lunatic, but I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. This guy is the walking definition of sleazebag douche asshole..
 
2013-04-17 11:12:45 AM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: Wessoman: Government is designed for the safety and welfare of the people. HERE is where I want more government oversight. To make sure the doctor you go to doesn't kill you. To make sure the car I drive won't fall apart. To make sure the food you eat won't poison you. To make sure the company I work for isn't polluting our natural resources. Its not to tell me how to think, or who I can and can't vote for, or what should be illegal because of some magical sky god and his followers.

all sounds reasonable to me. However, you do enjoy assumptions, dontcha?

As do you, mister Slippery Slope hyperbole.


What slippery slope?
 
2013-04-17 11:18:30 AM

skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Wessoman: Government is designed for the safety and welfare of the people. HERE is where I want more government oversight. To make sure the doctor you go to doesn't kill you. To make sure the car I drive won't fall apart. To make sure the food you eat won't poison you. To make sure the company I work for isn't polluting our natural resources. Its not to tell me how to think, or who I can and can't vote for, or what should be illegal because of some magical sky god and his followers.

all sounds reasonable to me. However, you do enjoy assumptions, dontcha?

As do you, mister Slippery Slope hyperbole.

What slippery slope?


DERP. Whenever I mention government oversight, you launched straight into hyperbole about needing overseers for overseers. Please, at least attempt to post properly and DO keep up.

And with that, I am out. Girlfriends coming over so I need to get ready. And that's why I am pro-choice. Because I like getting naked with ladies, but I don't like making babies with them. Keep Abortion safe and legal, and I'm out.
 
2013-04-17 11:18:43 AM

Wessoman: Your hyperbole makes a point but it doesn't make sense. Then we need an army to guard against our army to make sure it doesn't do anything illegal, and we need another army to guard against that army. Or maybe we need another President in case the current president is bad, and we have another president oversee the President overseer. NO. Remember, I am a true conservative, so I do not like redundancies in government. Just make government work efficiently in the first place.

Of course, never mind the modern GOP has the DHS, FBI and CIA all doing the same thing...


FFS... how can you miss the point after it has been explained to you?
I am not saying we NEED those things. I am not saying you're saying we NEED those things. I'm saying even if we HAD those things, there would still be substandard conditions in some places.
 
2013-04-17 11:19:01 AM
*clicks on thread

Expects numerous "have to pass it before know what's in it" jokes. Prepares rage.

Reads thread. Everything went better than expected.
 
2013-04-17 11:19:37 AM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Wessoman: Government is designed for the safety and welfare of the people. HERE is where I want more government oversight. To make sure the doctor you go to doesn't kill you. To make sure the car I drive won't fall apart. To make sure the food you eat won't poison you. To make sure the company I work for isn't polluting our natural resources. Its not to tell me how to think, or who I can and can't vote for, or what should be illegal because of some magical sky god and his followers.

all sounds reasonable to me. However, you do enjoy assumptions, dontcha?

As do you, mister Slippery Slope hyperbole.

What slippery slope?

DERP. Whenever I mention government oversight, you launched straight into hyperbole about needing overseers for overseers. Please, at least attempt to post properly and DO keep up.

And with that, I am out. Girlfriends coming over so I need to get ready. And that's why I am pro-choice. Because I like getting naked with ladies, but I don't like making babies with them. Keep Abortion safe and legal, and I'm out.


I don't think you're a "genuine conservative". I think you're right in the wheelhouse of the modern definition of modern conservatism. Dishonest and stupid.
 
2013-04-17 11:20:12 AM

nocturnal001: *clicks on thread

Expects numerous "have to pass it before know what's in it" jokes. Prepares rage.

Reads thread. Everything went better than expected.


wrong thread methinks ;)
 
2013-04-17 11:27:21 AM
This is just another fine example of what happens when society becomes polarized over an issue. Both sides only see what they want to see and disregard the rest. This scumbag succeeded in hiding fairly well from the Right (possibly because it was a black doctor, serving a black population, in a black neighborhood - suburban housewives aren't quite so butthurt when the babies being aborted aren't white) - and the Left didn't go looking for bad clinics for fear of finding something which would erode support for their cause.
 
2013-04-17 11:30:59 AM

Dr Dreidel: Serious Black: It was covered by some news outlets though.

I heard it on my local (DC) CBS affiliate. WTOP runs the "CBS World News Roundup" every half-hour (which I believe is syndicated to all CBS affiliates) and I was hearing it as part of that, not "local" coverage. That's millions of people right there, and in a very influential market (the 7th biggest media market in the country, over 4.5 million people).

Anyone who didn't hear this a month ago is, as you and others have said, either willfully ignorant of media sources that aren't their preferred outlets (in which case, blame the specific sources you consume rather than "the media") or dishonest.


A couple of months ago, one of my Facebook friends who is the personification of the Tea Party caricature started biatching that the "lamestream media" had blacked out coverage of the temporary FICA tax cut expiring. I flooded his post with six or seven articles, each from a different media outlet, talking about how Congress was likely to let the FICA tax cut expire and what the consequences of that expiration would be. He then insulted my taste in news coverage and insinuated that those outlets were the problem.
 
2013-04-17 11:32:02 AM

part of the problem: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Not accurate.
The clinic model was once believed to be a win for women's rights as it kept abortion out of the control of the hospital industry. Didnt work out so well but facts are facts.

Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.


EVERY liberal ALREADY thinks this, you dumb fark.
 
2013-04-17 11:32:19 AM

madgonad: This is just another fine example of what happens when society becomes polarized over an issue. Both sides only see what they want to see and disregard the rest. This scumbag succeeded in hiding fairly well from the Right (possibly because it was a black doctor, serving a black population, in a black neighborhood - suburban housewives aren't quite so butthurt when the babies being aborted aren't white) - and the Left didn't go looking for bad clinics for fear of finding something which would erode support for their cause.


or, more likely, because the anti-abortionists are more content with praying outside of clinics than actually taking practical steps to close them.
 
2013-04-17 11:34:47 AM

skullkrusher: nocturnal001: *clicks on thread

Expects numerous "have to pass it before know what's in it" jokes. Prepares rage.

Reads thread. Everything went better than expected.

wrong thread methinks ;)


Damnit, how did I fark that up...

No wonder things went better than expected.
 
2013-04-17 11:35:32 AM

madgonad: This is just another fine example of what happens when society becomes polarized over an issue. Both sides only see what they want to see and disregard the rest. This scumbag succeeded in hiding fairly well from the Right (possibly because it was a black doctor, serving a black population, in a black neighborhood - suburban housewives aren't quite so butthurt when the babies being aborted aren't white) - and the Left didn't go looking for bad clinics for fear of finding something which would erode support for their cause.


Pro-life folk don't ferret out safety violations in clinics. There is no conspiracy to "hide" clinics by Pro-choice folks. That's nonsense.

This really doesn't have anything to do with the abortion issue. That's just why it's getting attention. This is entirely the failure of local medical oversight. There were several complaints and they went unanswered. That's it. There are lots of people trying to spin it into a point about abortion but they're generally failing because it's so clearly a medical oversight issue.
 
2013-04-17 11:40:09 AM

skullkrusher: QuesoDelicioso: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Exactly right. Bloody coat-hangers and dead women are what they apparently wanted, and I suppose it's what they're gonna get.

no, quite false. This is Philly. There are a number of Planned Parenthood locations and other safe and clean women's health clinics a short distance away from Kermit the Monster's clinic.


You realize that only 3 of the 20 Planned Parenthood clinics in PA offer abortion services, and that the closest one to Philly is still about 10-15 miles away, right? (Which, for somebody relying on public transportation, is quite far away, and potentially impossible...)
 
2013-04-17 11:41:38 AM

skullkrusher: madgonad: This is just another fine example of what happens when society becomes polarized over an issue. Both sides only see what they want to see and disregard the rest. This scumbag succeeded in hiding fairly well from the Right (possibly because it was a black doctor, serving a black population, in a black neighborhood - suburban housewives aren't quite so butthurt when the babies being aborted aren't white) - and the Left didn't go looking for bad clinics for fear of finding something which would erode support for their cause.

or, more likely, because the anti-abortionists are more content with praying outside of clinics than actually taking practical steps to close them.


We both know that it is a far more complicated issue than that.

Some pro-life people are just focused on babies. They just love babies so much that they can't see how anyone could not want one.
Others are derived from the overall Conservative orthodoxy of pussy control. Women have too many freedoms which have allowed them to do anything they want, gasp, even live their lives outside of the control of a man. Society must shame and punish this behavior at all times.
A fair number are just doing their duty with their church.

On the flip side are too many people that assign no value whatsoever to the genetically unique blastocyst, zygote, or fetus that is living inside the 'mother'. An accidental pregnancy becomes 'a little problem' to solve.

Both sides are wrong - but Roe v Wade is still ahead of us here. The rules in Roe give the woman complete autonomy in deciding in the first trimester, require a doctors concurrence in the second, and requires TWO doctors to agree on medical necessity in the third. Those are really good rules. Not sure why the nation can't just agree that this was a good compromise and move on, but we can't.
 
2013-04-17 11:44:54 AM

odinsposse: Pro-life folk don't ferret out safety violations in clinics. There is no conspiracy to "hide" clinics by Pro-choice folks. That's nonsense.


Actually, Pro-Life people DO use the safety and inspection angle to close clinics. That is how most of the clinics in Kansas were closed.

And the Pro-Choice side isn't 'hiding' bad clinics. They just aren't looking for them and exposing them for what they are.
 
2013-04-17 11:46:49 AM

madgonad: skullkrusher: madgonad: This is just another fine example of what happens when society becomes polarized over an issue. Both sides only see what they want to see and disregard the rest. This scumbag succeeded in hiding fairly well from the Right (possibly because it was a black doctor, serving a black population, in a black neighborhood - suburban housewives aren't quite so butthurt when the babies being aborted aren't white) - and the Left didn't go looking for bad clinics for fear of finding something which would erode support for their cause.

or, more likely, because the anti-abortionists are more content with praying outside of clinics than actually taking practical steps to close them.

We both know that it is a far more complicated issue than that.

Some pro-life people are just focused on babies. They just love babies so much that they can't see how anyone could not want one.
Others are derived from the overall Conservative orthodoxy of pussy control. Women have too many freedoms which have allowed them to do anything they want, gasp, even live their lives outside of the control of a man. Society must shame and punish this behavior at all times.
A fair number are just doing their duty with their church.

On the flip side are too many people that assign no value whatsoever to the genetically unique blastocyst, zygote, or fetus that is living inside the 'mother'. An accidental pregnancy becomes 'a little problem' to solve.

Both sides are wrong - but Roe v Wade is still ahead of us here. The rules in Roe give the woman complete autonomy in deciding in the first trimester, require a doctors concurrence in the second, and requires TWO doctors to agree on medical necessity in the third. Those are really good rules. Not sure why the nation can't just agree that this was a good compromise and move on, but we can't.


There's your problem. The Republican Party is primarily controlled today by staunch conservatives who view compromise as tantamount to backstabbing God and having gay sex with Satan.
 
2013-04-17 11:50:09 AM

YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: QuesoDelicioso: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Exactly right. Bloody coat-hangers and dead women are what they apparently wanted, and I suppose it's what they're gonna get.

no, quite false. This is Philly. There are a number of Planned Parenthood locations and other safe and clean women's health clinics a short distance away from Kermit the Monster's clinic.

You realize that only 3 of the 20 Planned Parenthood clinics in PA offer abortion services, and that the closest one to Philly is still about 10-15 miles away, right? (Which, for somebody relying on public transportation, is quite far away, and potentially impossible...)


that means nothing to the point. According to the Yellow Pages, there are 3 abortion providers within the city itself and 4 more within 10 miles. 7 places to receive an abortion is hardly supportive of the notion that anti-abortion activism has driven abortion to the "back alleys". They'd like to but that is not the case here.
 
2013-04-17 11:50:26 AM

Serious Black: The Republican Party is primarily controlled today by staunch conservatives who view compromise as tantamount to backstabbing God and having gay sex with Satan.


That sounds more like backstabbing Satan, NTTAWWT.
 
2013-04-17 11:53:01 AM

skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: QuesoDelicioso: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Exactly right. Bloody coat-hangers and dead women are what they apparently wanted, and I suppose it's what they're gonna get.

no, quite false. This is Philly. There are a number of Planned Parenthood locations and other safe and clean women's health clinics a short distance away from Kermit the Monster's clinic.

You realize that only 3 of the 20 Planned Parenthood clinics in PA offer abortion services, and that the closest one to Philly is still about 10-15 miles away, right? (Which, for somebody relying on public transportation, is quite far away, and potentially impossible...)

that means nothing to the point. According to the Yellow Pages, there are 3 abortion providers within the city itself and 4 more within 10 miles. 7 places to receive an abortion is hardly supportive of the notion that anti-abortion activism has driven abortion to the "back alleys". They'd like to but that is not the case here.


I wonder if my cousin's basement is still one of those 7
 
2013-04-17 11:53:43 AM

madgonad: We both know that it is a far more complicated issue than that.

Some pro-life people are just focused on babies. They just love babies so much that they can't see how anyone could not want one.
Others are derived from the overall Conservative orthodoxy of pussy control. Women have too many freedoms which have allowed them to do anything they want, gasp, even live their lives outside of the control of a man. Society must shame and punish this behavior at all times.
A fair number are just doing their duty with their church.

On the flip side are too many people that assign no value whatsoever to the genetically unique blastocyst, zygote, or fetus that is living inside the 'mother'. An accidental pregnancy becomes 'a little problem' to solve.


you made a blanket statement about suburban housewives. I don't think this dick operated under the radar because of bias against black kids as these anti-abortion activists like to stand in front of clinics with signs and rosaries rather than actually taking steps to close clinics like Kermit the Butcher's.

It's a strategy failure on their part, I don't believe it is a conscious effort to not care about minority abortions.

Of course both sides have their issues and bad actors. The pro-choicers are right, imo, but they are still lousy with jokers. It's just the way shiat is.
 
2013-04-17 11:54:28 AM

CPennypacker: skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: QuesoDelicioso: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Exactly right. Bloody coat-hangers and dead women are what they apparently wanted, and I suppose it's what they're gonna get.

no, quite false. This is Philly. There are a number of Planned Parenthood locations and other safe and clean women's health clinics a short distance away from Kermit the Monster's clinic.

You realize that only 3 of the 20 Planned Parenthood clinics in PA offer abortion services, and that the closest one to Philly is still about 10-15 miles away, right? (Which, for somebody relying on public transportation, is quite far away, and potentially impossible...)

that means nothing to the point. According to the Yellow Pages, there are 3 abortion providers within the city itself and 4 more within 10 miles. 7 places to receive an abortion is hardly supportive of the notion that anti-abortion activism has driven abortion to the "back alleys". They'd like to but that is not the case here.

I wonder if my cousin's basement is still one of those 7


ummm eww
 
2013-04-17 11:54:47 AM

Dr Dreidel: Serious Black: The Republican Party is primarily controlled today by staunch conservatives who view compromise as tantamount to backstabbing God and having gay sex with Satan.

That sounds more like backstabbing Satan, NTTAWWT.


Hypothetical question: is it worse if you are the one backstabbing Satan or Satan is backstabbing you?
 
2013-04-17 12:01:13 PM

Wessoman: Richard C Stanford: part of the problem: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Not accurate.
The clinic model was once believed to be a win for women's rights as it kept abortion out of the control of the hospital industry. Didnt work out so well but facts are facts.

Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.

Ok! This is completely farked up. This monster sould have his legs cut off with a dull hatchet and left in a locked basement. Or tossed to an angry mob to be beaten to death. Or crushed slowly feet first under a steamroller. Or have all his limbs ripped off with a blender and left to bleed out. Or be tied to a stake in the middle of a basin of sulfuric acid. Acually, all of these are to good for him.

Hey man, calm down. His fark name is "Part of the problem", so he's at least honest about his intentions. Besides, it was a brilliant troll. 9/10. Good job. Come in, threadshiat, cause a mess, lol at comments like yours.

 
2013-04-17 12:03:58 PM
Should have been on the last post, but effing thing kicked back my image...
i467.photobucket.com
 
2013-04-17 12:04:14 PM

skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: QuesoDelicioso: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Exactly right. Bloody coat-hangers and dead women are what they apparently wanted, and I suppose it's what they're gonna get.

no, quite false. This is Philly. There are a number of Planned Parenthood locations and other safe and clean women's health clinics a short distance away from Kermit the Monster's clinic.

You realize that only 3 of the 20 Planned Parenthood clinics in PA offer abortion services, and that the closest one to Philly is still about 10-15 miles away, right? (Which, for somebody relying on public transportation, is quite far away, and potentially impossible...)

that means nothing to the point. According to the Yellow Pages, there are 3 abortion providers within the city itself and 4 more within 10 miles. 7 places to receive an abortion is hardly supportive of the notion that anti-abortion activism has driven abortion to the "back alleys". They'd like to but that is not the case here.


My Yellow Pages search turned up two in Philly, two more in Cherry Hill, nothing else within ten miles.

There's also the issue of funding - public funding (either through insurance for public employees or state aid) is only available in cases of endangerment, rape, or incest. That's also going to be a big deterrent.
 
2013-04-17 12:11:00 PM

vernonFL: Another detail I find disturbing is that some of the workers at the clinic complained to the state board about it - and nothing was done.


The clinic hadn't been inspected in something like six years.

This is another case of Conservatives breaking government (in this case, allowing medical clinics to self-police) and then declaring that government doesn't work.

/His clinic was three blocks from my parents house
 
2013-04-17 12:14:23 PM

Serious Black: Dr Dreidel: Serious Black: The Republican Party is primarily controlled today by staunch conservatives who view compromise as tantamount to backstabbing God and having gay sex with Satan.

That sounds more like backstabbing Satan, NTTAWWT.

Hypothetical question: is it worse if you are the one backstabbing Satan or Satan is backstabbing you?


From a Levitical perspective, they're equally wrong - they both get stoned.
From a biological or psychological perspective, I suppose it depends how you're wired.
 
2013-04-17 12:16:30 PM

YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: QuesoDelicioso: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Exactly right. Bloody coat-hangers and dead women are what they apparently wanted, and I suppose it's what they're gonna get.

no, quite false. This is Philly. There are a number of Planned Parenthood locations and other safe and clean women's health clinics a short distance away from Kermit the Monster's clinic.

You realize that only 3 of the 20 Planned Parenthood clinics in PA offer abortion services, and that the closest one to Philly is still about 10-15 miles away, right? (Which, for somebody relying on public transportation, is quite far away, and potentially impossible...)

that means nothing to the point. According to the Yellow Pages, there are 3 abortion providers within the city itself and 4 more within 10 miles. 7 places to receive an abortion is hardly supportive of the notion that anti-abortion activism has driven abortion to the "back alleys". They'd like to but that is not the case here.

My Yellow Pages search turned up two in Philly, two more in Cherry Hill, nothing else within ten miles.

There's also the issue of funding - public funding (either through insurance for public employees or state aid) is only available in cases of endangerment, rape, or incest. That's also going to be a big deterrent.


http://www.yellowpages.com/philadelphia-pa/abortion-clinics

funding is irrelevant to the immediate question but I am cool with no public funding for abortion except in those cases you mentioned
 
2013-04-17 12:16:46 PM
Gosnell is like the Free Staters/Open Carry/Ahurrr-15 mental midgets that insist on waving their gundicks in everyone's face after some reject carries out another senseless massacre.

He is going to get your rights taken away by shocking and scaring the populace. Step on these people yourself or suffer the consequences.
 
2013-04-17 12:17:46 PM

part of the problem: The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.


They feel as if they give even and inch or close down one clinic... that anything that the anti-abortion side will be happy about... it's a loss for their side.

They often say "safe, legal, and rare" but "safe" has no concern really. They use "safe" as a modifier for legal. Regulations designed to keep this from happening are called "hyper regulations" designed to shut down clinics. Inspections are treated as an attack.

When Louisiana closed down the New Orleans East clinic there was outrage by abortion rights activists even though there was the same health issues as what Gosnell's clinic was being accused of. Thankfully, IIRC, no woman died there before they shut it down.
 
2013-04-17 12:17:55 PM

Wessoman: Richard C Stanford: part of the problem: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Not accurate.
The clinic model was once believed to be a win for women's rights as it kept abortion out of the control of the hospital industry. Didnt work out so well but facts are facts.

Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.

Ok! This is completely farked up. This monster sould have his legs cut off with a dull hatchet and left in a locked basement. Or tossed to an angry mob to be beaten to death. Or crushed slowly feet first under a steamroller. Or have all his limbs ripped off with a blender and left to bleed out. Or be tied to a stake in the middle of a basin of sulfuric acid. Acually, all of these are to good for him.

Hey man, calm down. His fark name is "Part of the problem", so he's at least honest about his intentions. Besides, it was a brilliant troll. 9/10. Good job. Come in, threadshiat, cause a mess, lol at comments like yours.


I was referring to doctor sickfark.
 
2013-04-17 12:20:43 PM

Mrbogey: part of the problem: The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.

They feel as if they give even and inch or close down one clinic... that anything that the anti-abortion side will be happy about... it's a loss for their side.

They often say "safe, legal, and rare" but "safe" has no concern really. They use "safe" as a modifier for legal. Regulations designed to keep this from happening are called "hyper regulations" designed to shut down clinics. Inspections are treated as an attack.

When Louisiana closed down the New Orleans East clinic there was outrage by abortion rights activists even though there was the same health issues as what Gosnell's clinic was being accused of. Thankfully, IIRC, no woman died there before they shut it down.


Trolls responding to trolls responding to trolls...
 
2013-04-17 12:23:47 PM

willfullyobscure: Gosnell is like the Free Staters/Open Carry/Ahurrr-15 mental midgets that insist on waving their gundicks in everyone's face after some reject carries out another senseless massacre.

He is going to get your rights taken away by shocking and scaring the populace. Step on these people yourself or suffer the consequences.


that is the holocaust of analogies
 
2013-04-17 12:35:01 PM

madgonad: Both sides are wrong -


oh boy tell me more
 
2013-04-17 12:35:53 PM
Nice to see that skullcrusher is still the thick-headed asshole he's always been.
 
2013-04-17 12:37:48 PM
All of my pro-life friends are surprised that I think this guy is a monster because I'm pro-choice. That will tell you how one dimensional their grasp of this issue is. You either murder babies or you don't.
 
2013-04-17 12:40:55 PM

kronicfeld: YixilTesiphon: vernonFL: Another detail I find disturbing is that some of the workers at the clinic complained to the state board about it - and nothing was done.

That's the real story here - the stunning incompetence of the Pennsylvania government seems to be demonstrated several times a year.

If this is going on in Philadelphia, what the hell is happening in the rest of the state?

I for one am shocked at this unprecedented example of Pennsylvania public employees deliberately turning a blind eye toward systematic violent crimes against children.


Win
 
2013-04-17 12:42:15 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Nice to see that skullcrusher is still the thick-headed asshole he's always been.


care to elaborate or are you content with the cowardice you usually display?
 
2013-04-17 12:44:16 PM

CPennypacker: All of my pro-life friends are surprised that I think this guy is a monster because I'm pro-choice. That will tell you how one dimensional their grasp of this issue is. You either murder babies or you don't.


Extrapolate that. You've hit upon exactly the problem: many of them truly do not see a difference. Once you understand that fundamental core belief, you can understand why they're uncompromising about it. You must change that core belief if you want to change their minds. "Keep your laws off my body" doesn't resonate.
 
2013-04-17 12:45:46 PM

Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.


This needs to be repeated often and loudly.  As the anti-abortion mob is more and more successful oppressing women's rights, more and more of these houses of horrors will spring up.

Religion is nothing more than a good intention to evil transducer.
 
2013-04-17 12:49:03 PM

skullkrusher: you made a blanket statement about suburban housewives. I don't think this dick operated under the radar because of bias against black kids as these anti-abortion activists like to stand in front of clinics with signs and rosaries rather than actually taking steps to close clinics like Kermit the Butcher's.


No, suburban housewives are willing to stand in front of clinics in reasonably safe neighborhoods. They will leave their cloistered suburbs for mixed neighborhoods or clinics near a university where there are still plenty of white folks walking around. But this clinic was in a very poor neighborhood and all the people around it were minorities. That is WAY outside of their comfort zone.

This asshole operated under the radar because operated in an area and on a population that our society just ignores. It takes a travesty like this to drag it out into the sunlight.

Oh, and I don't think the doctor is really a monster. He runs a bad business, doesn't pay for maintenance, and doesn't follow the damn rules. He is the medical equivalent of a factory owner that allows terrible conditions that result in contamination, injury, and death. Hardly anything new, but still morally offensive.
 
2013-04-17 12:50:29 PM

vygramul: CPennypacker: All of my pro-life friends are surprised that I think this guy is a monster because I'm pro-choice. That will tell you how one dimensional their grasp of this issue is. You either murder babies or you don't.

Extrapolate that. You've hit upon exactly the problem: many of them truly do not see a difference. Once you understand that fundamental core belief, you can understand why they're uncompromising about it. You must change that core belief if you want to change their minds. "Keep your laws off my body" doesn't resonate.


It also helps if that same core belief system has no regard for the rights of women
 
2013-04-17 12:52:16 PM

Bloody William: Wessoman: Government is designed for the safety and welfare of the people. HERE is where I want more government oversight. To make sure the doctor you go to doesn't kill you. To make sure the car I drive won't fall apart. To make sure the food you eat won't poison you. To make sure the company I work for isn't polluting our natural resources.

The free market can do that better than any government!


Poe's law?
 
2013-04-17 12:55:23 PM

CPennypacker: vygramul: CPennypacker: All of my pro-life friends are surprised that I think this guy is a monster because I'm pro-choice. That will tell you how one dimensional their grasp of this issue is. You either murder babies or you don't.

Extrapolate that. You've hit upon exactly the problem: many of them truly do not see a difference. Once you understand that fundamental core belief, you can understand why they're uncompromising about it. You must change that core belief if you want to change their minds. "Keep your laws off my body" doesn't resonate.

It also helps if that same core belief system has no regard for the rights of women


That's not central to that belief system, although it certainly helps if that is a belief one holds concurrently, which I would admit has a high incidence.

It's interesting - Evangelicals and other protestants really didn't care all that much about abortion until Phyllis Schlafly convinced them they would lose control of their women. Catholics, like Schlafly, were anti-abortion entirely because they see no difference between the baby and the fetus - certainly once the fetus was recognizable as a human.
 
2013-04-17 12:56:19 PM

madgonad: No, suburban housewives are willing to stand in front of clinics in reasonably safe neighborhoods. They will leave their cloistered suburbs for mixed neighborhoods or clinics near a university where there are still plenty of white folks walking around. But this clinic was in a very poor neighborhood and all the people around it were minorities. That is WAY outside of their comfort zone.


"Every Saturday morning," clinic neighbor Bill Baumann said in the Gosnell documentary 3801 Lancaster, "the priests and the antiabortionists were out front praying the rosary.""

madgonad: This asshole operated under the radar because operated in an area and on a population that our society just ignores. It takes a travesty like this to drag it out into the sunlight.


I can't respond to this because I have no idea why he was allowed to go on for as long as he did

madgonad: Oh, and I don't think the doctor is really a monster. He runs a bad business, doesn't pay for maintenance, and doesn't follow the damn rules. He is the medical equivalent of a factory owner that allows terrible conditions that result in contamination, injury, and death. Hardly anything new, but still morally offensive.


are you joking? This motherfarker (allegedly) killed babies. He (allegedly) killed a women. He ran a "medical" practice under the most abhorrent conditions. What else does he have to do to be called a "monster"?
 
2013-04-17 12:58:39 PM

skullkrusher: madgonad: Oh, and I don't think the doctor is really a monster. He runs a bad business, doesn't pay for maintenance, and doesn't follow the damn rules. He is the medical equivalent of a factory owner that allows terrible conditions that result in contamination, injury, and death. Hardly anything new, but still morally offensive.

are you joking? This motherfarker (allegedly) killed babies. He (allegedly) killed a women. He ran a "medical" practice under the most abhorrent conditions. What else does he have to do to be called a "monster"?


Vote for Fartbongo.
 
2013-04-17 01:00:18 PM

vygramul: CPennypacker: All of my pro-life friends are surprised that I think this guy is a monster because I'm pro-choice. That will tell you how one dimensional their grasp of this issue is. You either murder babies or you don't.

Extrapolate that. You've hit upon exactly the problem: many of them truly do not see a difference. Once you understand that fundamental core belief, you can understand why they're uncompromising about it. You must change that core belief if you want to change their minds. "Keep your laws off my body" doesn't resonate.


The hypocrisy of blaming a lack of regulatory oversight while wanting laws kept off their bodies doesn't help either.
 
2013-04-17 01:00:27 PM

Wessoman: Aaaand the Free Market has given us a serious global warming problem, and GMOs in our food. It actually does hold back technology at times. But it's dumb to say that the Free Market has the answers to all problems. It's like saying God is the answer to everything. It sounds good on paper, but it's laughably impractical in practice.


William was being sarcastic.
 
2013-04-17 01:05:31 PM

skullkrusher: are you joking? This motherfarker (allegedly) killed babies. He (allegedly) killed a women. He ran a "medical" practice under the most abhorrent conditions. What else does he have to do to be called a "monster"?


Actually, he performed a D&X.... poorly. Because he was a lousy doctor. A D&X is a procedure done in some third trimester abortions (which he shouldn't even be doing). It involves damaging the brain/severing the spinal column during extraction (while still in the mother). The reason for this is while a 24-28 week fetus will die very shortly after being removed, it doesn't happen immediately and the procedure was designed to guarantee that fetus would not be alive outside of the mother at all. This farkstick apparently did an intact extraction and didn't terminate the fetus until the end. It is a vague area of law, but technically abortions are allowed when fetal life signs are terminated in utero while terminating them outside of the mother can be considered infanticide.
 
2013-04-17 01:08:41 PM

madgonad: skullkrusher: are you joking? This motherfarker (allegedly) killed babies. He (allegedly) killed a women. He ran a "medical" practice under the most abhorrent conditions. What else does he have to do to be called a "monster"?

Actually, he performed a D&X.... poorly. Because he was a lousy doctor. A D&X is a procedure done in some third trimester abortions (which he shouldn't even be doing). It involves damaging the brain/severing the spinal column during extraction (while still in the mother). The reason for this is while a 24-28 week fetus will die very shortly after being removed, it doesn't happen immediately and the procedure was designed to guarantee that fetus would not be alive outside of the mother at all. This farkstick apparently did an intact extraction and didn't terminate the fetus until the end. It is a vague area of law, but technically abortions are allowed when fetal life signs are terminated in utero while terminating them outside of the mother can be considered infanticide.


arbitrariness of the law notwithstanding, that is what he's accused of. He performed illegal 3rd trimester abortions. He had stacks of aborted fetuses in farking cat food containers. I think you have the bar for monstrosity set a bit high
 
2013-04-17 01:18:08 PM

pagstuff: vygramul: CPennypacker: All of my pro-life friends are surprised that I think this guy is a monster because I'm pro-choice. That will tell you how one dimensional their grasp of this issue is. You either murder babies or you don't.

Extrapolate that. You've hit upon exactly the problem: many of them truly do not see a difference. Once you understand that fundamental core belief, you can understand why they're uncompromising about it. You must change that core belief if you want to change their minds. "Keep your laws off my body" doesn't resonate.

The hypocrisy of blaming a lack of regulatory oversight while wanting laws kept off their bodies doesn't help either.



Regulatory oversight of a clinic /= laws restricting a woman's right to do what she wants with her body. But you knew that, didn't you?
 
2013-04-17 01:49:11 PM

Lord_Baull: pagstuff: vygramul: CPennypacker: All of my pro-life friends are surprised that I think this guy is a monster because I'm pro-choice. That will tell you how one dimensional their grasp of this issue is. You either murder babies or you don't.

Extrapolate that. You've hit upon exactly the problem: many of them truly do not see a difference. Once you understand that fundamental core belief, you can understand why they're uncompromising about it. You must change that core belief if you want to change their minds. "Keep your laws off my body" doesn't resonate.

The hypocrisy of blaming a lack of regulatory oversight while wanting laws kept off their bodies doesn't help either.


Regulatory oversight of a clinic /= laws restricting a woman's right to do what she wants with her body. But you knew that, didn't you?


Actually, I had no idea abortions were self-performed
 
2013-04-17 01:50:55 PM

pagstuff: Lord_Baull: pagstuff: vygramul: CPennypacker: All of my pro-life friends are surprised that I think this guy is a monster because I'm pro-choice. That will tell you how one dimensional their grasp of this issue is. You either murder babies or you don't.

Extrapolate that. You've hit upon exactly the problem: many of them truly do not see a difference. Once you understand that fundamental core belief, you can understand why they're uncompromising about it. You must change that core belief if you want to change their minds. "Keep your laws off my body" doesn't resonate.

The hypocrisy of blaming a lack of regulatory oversight while wanting laws kept off their bodies doesn't help either.


Regulatory oversight of a clinic /= laws restricting a woman's right to do what she wants with her body. But you knew that, didn't you?

Actually, I had no idea abortions were self-performed


wtf are you talking about?
 
2013-04-17 01:52:26 PM

skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: QuesoDelicioso: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways.  This is the result of all their hard work.

Exactly right. Bloody coat-hangers and dead women are what they apparently wanted, and I suppose it's what they're gonna get.

no, quite false. This is Philly. There are a number of Planned Parenthood locations and other safe and clean women's health clinics a short distance away from Kermit the Monster's clinic.

You realize that only 3 of the 20 Planned Parenthood clinics in PA offer abortion services, and that the closest one to Philly is still about 10-15 miles away, right? (Which, for somebody relying on public transportation, is quite far away, and potentially impossible...)

that means nothing to the point. According to the Yellow Pages, there are 3 abortion providers within the city itself and 4 more within 10 miles. 7 places to receive an abortion is hardly supportive of the notion that anti-abortion activism has driven abortion to the "back alleys". They'd like to but that is not the case here.

My Yellow Pages search turned up two in Philly, two more in Cherry Hill, nothing else within ten miles.

There's also the issue of funding - public funding (either through insurance for public employees or state aid) is only available in cases of endangerment, rape, or incest. That's also going to be a big deterrent.

http://www.yellowpages.com/philadelphia-pa/abortion-clinics

funding is irrelevant to the immediate question but I am cool with no public funding for abortion except in those cases you mentioned


Yeah...    read that list more closely. It's the same list I had; based on the website (for the clinic) the first three listings are the exact same place (despite different listed addresses), two others are simply larger organizations with no actual clinics near Philly.

Funding, as a potential barrier, is absolutely relevant. My understanding was a number of Gosnell's client were there because they couldn't afford legitimate places, which is a problem that public funding solves...

I mean, if you wanna make abortions more difficult to obtain that's your prerogative - I'm just not sure why you think it'll be any more effective than, say, the war on drugs. Market demands are usually met, legally or otherwise, and this is the type of stuff that happens on the black market for abortion...
 
2013-04-17 01:53:20 PM

Fluorescent Testicle: Well, one could certainly argue that the anti-abortion movement helped him out by over-regulating all the other clinics in the area into closure, forcing women to attend his horrific death shop instead. Of course, that doesn't make him any less guilty or disgusting, before any trolls jump on me for "Defending" his oxygen-thieving ass.


You reap what you sow. Real life has shown that when abortion is illegal, the same number of abortions are performed but more women die from them. But I guess it's the "right kind" of women, so that makes it okay to the conservative "pro-life" camp.
 
2013-04-17 02:02:43 PM
Talk about a miscarriage of justice.
 
2013-04-17 02:04:06 PM

jake_lex: The article does make an interesting point: how can there be people camped out there with the stated intent of shutting the place down not have noticed anything?


listen jake, it actually is a very stupid point only a moron or someone who is so ideologically bent they can even remain objective for 3 seconds it takes to analyze the retarded point would say it was interesting.
they are protestors.
they are not invited in to interview and verify the staff's medical credentials. they are not invited in look for unsafe practices. they are required by law to stay away from the clinic if they've ever been taken to court.
this guy had violation going back 20 years, but no one gave a shiat, perhaps because the only victims were the poor and probably pricks like you are so remarkably ideologically compromised you'd perform almost any task short of active cover up participation to defend and operation like this from regulation you find so remarkably in literally every other facet in commercial and medical life besides this one. you're what is f*cked up with america jake.
 
2013-04-17 02:04:16 PM

skullkrusher: He had stacks of aborted fetuses in farking cat food containers


Which is terrible, when you think about it. You can buy tupperware at the dollar store.
 
2013-04-17 02:06:27 PM

skullkrusher: Fluorescent Testicle: Well, one could certainly argue that the anti-abortion movement helped him out by over-regulating all the other clinics in the area into closure, forcing women to attend his horrific death shop instead. Of course, that doesn't make him any less guilty or disgusting, before any trolls jump on me for "Defending" his oxygen-thieving ass.

one could not argue that because it isn't true.


Well since you say it's not true I guess that just wraps it up. Nice talk, I really learned a lot.
 
2013-04-17 02:12:02 PM

YoungLochinvar: Yeah... read that list more closely. It's the same list I had; based on the website (for the clinic) the first three listings are the exact same place (despite different listed addresses), two others are simply larger organizations with no actual clinics near Philly.


The Philly clinics are all different. The S Jersey Woman's Center has 2 addresses but I don't know if that means 2 locations where services are provided. There's another unique clinic in there too within 10 miles. So at least 5, maybe 6 places to go

YoungLochinvar: Funding, as a potential barrier, is absolutely relevant. My understanding was a number of Gosnell's client were there because they couldn't afford legitimate places, which is a problem that public funding solves...


Look at the fees for the S Jersey Women's Clinic. Far less than what Doctor Demento charged

YoungLochinvar: I mean, if you wanna make abortions more difficult to obtain that's your prerogative - I'm just not sure why you think it'll be any more effective than, say, the war on drugs. Market demands are usually met, legally or otherwise, and this is the type of stuff that happens on the black market for abortion...


abortion should be safe and legal (to a point with restrictions). I am opposed to them from a personal perspective but if you want to get one, by all means. Just don't expect me to pay for it unless it is necessary to save your life or the result of rape.
 
2013-04-17 02:13:11 PM

hobberwickey: skullkrusher: Fluorescent Testicle: Well, one could certainly argue that the anti-abortion movement helped him out by over-regulating all the other clinics in the area into closure, forcing women to attend his horrific death shop instead. Of course, that doesn't make him any less guilty or disgusting, before any trolls jump on me for "Defending" his oxygen-thieving ass.

one could not argue that because it isn't true.

Well since you say it's not true I guess that just wraps it up. Nice talk, I really learned a lot.


yeah, I countered a claim without basis with a claim that has basis, I just didn't provide it at the time.
 
2013-04-17 02:13:41 PM

skullkrusher: madgonad: skullkrusher: are you joking? This motherfarker (allegedly) killed babies. He (allegedly) killed a women. He ran a "medical" practice under the most abhorrent conditions. What else does he have to do to be called a "monster"?

Actually, he performed a D&X.... poorly. Because he was a lousy doctor. A D&X is a procedure done in some third trimester abortions (which he shouldn't even be doing). It involves damaging the brain/severing the spinal column during extraction (while still in the mother). The reason for this is while a 24-28 week fetus will die very shortly after being removed, it doesn't happen immediately and the procedure was designed to guarantee that fetus would not be alive outside of the mother at all. This farkstick apparently did an intact extraction and didn't terminate the fetus until the end. It is a vague area of law, but technically abortions are allowed when fetal life signs are terminated in utero while terminating them outside of the mother can be considered infanticide.

arbitrariness of the law notwithstanding, that is what he's accused of. He performed illegal 3rd trimester abortions. He had stacks of aborted fetuses in farking cat food containers. I think you have the bar for monstrosity set a bit high


a monster? he's practically a hero!
see skull, you just way over analyze this. you need to see things as pure black and white right and wrong like pro choicers do around here.
they have a very simple test, in the grand scheme of things do I agree with what he was doing? well you like having late term abortions available right?
then the's charges are overblown, and the people who would like to string him up are really to blame for not being diligent enough.
if the answer is yes and the man is being attacked you must downplay his alleged crimes and attempt to defend what he did in any way possible while also attacking the people that disagree with you.
 
2013-04-17 02:16:17 PM

skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: Yeah... read that list more closely. It's the same list I had; based on the website (for the clinic) the first three listings are the exact same place (despite different listed addresses), two others are simply larger organizations with no actual clinics near Philly.

The Philly clinics are all different. The S Jersey Woman's Center has 2 addresses but I don't know if that means 2 locations where services are provided. There's another unique clinic in there too within 10 miles. So at least 5, maybe 6 places to go

YoungLochinvar: Funding, as a potential barrier, is absolutely relevant. My understanding was a number of Gosnell's client were there because they couldn't afford legitimate places, which is a problem that public funding solves...

Look at the fees for the S Jersey Women's Clinic. Far less than what Doctor Demento charged

YoungLochinvar: I mean, if you wanna make abortions more difficult to obtain that's your prerogative - I'm just not sure why you think it'll be any more effective than, say, the war on drugs. Market demands are usually met, legally or otherwise, and this is the type of stuff that happens on the black market for abortion...

abortion should be safe and legal (to a point with restrictions). I am opposed to them from a personal perspective but if you want to get one, by all means. Just don't expect me to pay for it unless it is necessary to save your life or the result of rape.


You pay other people's medical bills? You're an even nicer guy than I thought
 
2013-04-17 02:17:45 PM

skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: Yeah... read that list more closely. It's the same list I had; based on the website (for the clinic) the first three listings are the exact same place (despite different listed addresses), two others are simply larger organizations with no actual clinics near Philly.

The Philly clinics are all different. The S Jersey Woman's Center has 2 addresses but I don't know if that means 2 locations where services are provided. There's another unique clinic in there too within 10 miles. So at least 5, maybe 6 places to go

YoungLochinvar: Funding, as a potential barrier, is absolutely relevant. My understanding was a number of Gosnell's client were there because they couldn't afford legitimate places, which is a problem that public funding solves...

Look at the fees for the S Jersey Women's Clinic. Far less than what Doctor Demento charged

YoungLochinvar: I mean, if you wanna make abortions more difficult to obtain that's your prerogative - I'm just not sure why you think it'll be any more effective than, say, the war on drugs. Market demands are usually met, legally or otherwise, and this is the type of stuff that happens on the black market for abortion...

abortion should be safe and legal (to a point with restrictions). I am opposed to them from a personal perspective but if you want to get one, by all means. Just don't expect me to pay for it unless it is necessary to save your life or the result of rape.


relcec: skullkrusher: madgonad: skullkrusher: are you joking? This motherfarker (allegedly) killed babies. He (allegedly) killed a women. He ran a "medical" practice under the most abhorrent conditions. What else does he have to do to be called a "monster"?

Actually, he performed a D&X.... poorly. Because he was a lousy doctor. A D&X is a procedure done in some third trimester abortions (which he shouldn't even be doing). It involves damaging the brain/severing the spinal column during extraction (while still in the mother). The reason for this is while a 24-28 week fetus will die very shortly after being removed, it doesn't happen immediately and the procedure was designed to guarantee that fetus would not be alive outside of the mother at all. This farkstick apparently did an intact extraction and didn't terminate the fetus until the end. It is a vague area of law, but technically abortions are allowed when fetal life signs are terminated in utero while terminating them outside of the mother can be considered infanticide.

arbitrariness of the law notwithstanding, that is what he's accused of. He performed illegal 3rd trimester abortions. He had stacks of aborted fetuses in farking cat food containers. I think you have the bar for monstrosity set a bit high

a monster? he's practically a hero!
see skull, you just way over analyze this. you need to see things as pure black and white right and wrong like pro choicers do around here.
they have a very simple test, in the grand scheme of things do I agree with what he was doing? well you like having late term abortions available right?
then the's charges are overblown, and the people who would like to string him up are really to blame for not being diligent enough.
if the answer is yes and the man is being attacked you must downplay his alleged crimes and attempt to defend what he did in any way possible while also attacking the people that disagree with you.


Everyone wants him strung up, you goddamned moron.
 
2013-04-17 02:19:42 PM

CPennypacker: skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: Yeah... read that list more closely. It's the same list I had; based on the website (for the clinic) the first three listings are the exact same place (despite different listed addresses), two others are simply larger organizations with no actual clinics near Philly.

The Philly clinics are all different. The S Jersey Woman's Center has 2 addresses but I don't know if that means 2 locations where services are provided. There's another unique clinic in there too within 10 miles. So at least 5, maybe 6 places to go

YoungLochinvar: Funding, as a potential barrier, is absolutely relevant. My understanding was a number of Gosnell's client were there because they couldn't afford legitimate places, which is a problem that public funding solves...

Look at the fees for the S Jersey Women's Clinic. Far less than what Doctor Demento charged

YoungLochinvar: I mean, if you wanna make abortions more difficult to obtain that's your prerogative - I'm just not sure why you think it'll be any more effective than, say, the war on drugs. Market demands are usually met, legally or otherwise, and this is the type of stuff that happens on the black market for abortion...

abortion should be safe and legal (to a point with restrictions). I am opposed to them from a personal perspective but if you want to get one, by all means. Just don't expect me to pay for it unless it is necessary to save your life or the result of rape.

You pay other people's medical bills? You're an even nicer guy than I thought


I am pretty awesome, tis true
 
2013-04-17 02:20:55 PM

relcec: skullkrusher: madgonad: skullkrusher: are you joking? This motherfarker (allegedly) killed babies. He (allegedly) killed a women. He ran a "medical" practice under the most abhorrent conditions. What else does he have to do to be called a "monster"?

Actually, he performed a D&X.... poorly. Because he was a lousy doctor. A D&X is a procedure done in some third trimester abortions (which he shouldn't even be doing). It involves damaging the brain/severing the spinal column during extraction (while still in the mother). The reason for this is while a 24-28 week fetus will die very shortly after being removed, it doesn't happen immediately and the procedure was designed to guarantee that fetus would not be alive outside of the mother at all. This farkstick apparently did an intact extraction and didn't terminate the fetus until the end. It is a vague area of law, but technically abortions are allowed when fetal life signs are terminated in utero while terminating them outside of the mother can be considered infanticide.

arbitrariness of the law notwithstanding, that is what he's accused of. He performed illegal 3rd trimester abortions. He had stacks of aborted fetuses in farking cat food containers. I think you have the bar for monstrosity set a bit high

a monster? he's practically a hero!
see skull, you just way over analyze this. you need to see things as pure black and white right and wrong like pro choicers do around here.
they have a very simple test, in the grand scheme of things do I agree with what he was doing? well you like having late term abortions available right?
then the's charges are overblown, and the people who would like to string him up are really to blame for not being diligent enough.
if the answer is yes and the man is being attacked you must downplay his alleged crimes and attempt to defend what he did in any way possible while also attacking the people that disagree with you.


dude, there's no one praising this guy. One example of someone who has an incredibly high tolerance for monstrosity but no one cheering this guy
 
2013-04-17 02:21:31 PM

CPennypacker: All of my pro-life friends are surprised that I think this guy is a monster because I'm pro-choice. That will tell you how one dimensional their grasp of this issue is. You either murder babies or you don't.


To me, that's the real take-home of the Atlantic article linked here.  Why didn't the anti-abortion crowd find out anything about Gosnell?  Because in their minds he was already a monster simply for performing abortions; the methods he used were irrelevant.  Which also makes all of the coverage of this affair seem so upside-down to me: yes, it was conservatives who pushed it into the national conversation, but that's only because they seem to think that exposing conduct that's already illegal affects the abortion debtate generally.  (Aren't conservatives the same people who, in the recent gun debates, refused to discuss fully automatic weapons because those are already illegal?)  And so, in that vein...

part of the problem: Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?


Why is it so hard for conservatives just to say this is a horrible and monstrous event that has no bearing whatsoever on the legal abortions that are regularly performed in this country?
 
2013-04-17 02:23:34 PM

Fluorescent Testicle: vernonFL: Supposedly abortion clinics don't have to meet standards that other medical offices do - for example I heard that Dentists are regulated more than abortion clinics as far as cleanliness standards and such. I don't know if that last statement is even true. But that is what my anti-abortion friends have told me.

Your anti-choice friends lied to you. Pennsylvania has very strict laws.


THIS is amazing.
that you assholes have the balls to still complain about overzealous regulation in this specific geographic region AFTER we find out this dude has been crushing hundreds if not thousands of babies spinal cords and then stacking babies like cord-wood to putrefy while generally maintaining the hygiene at the facility more common in a high school locker room than a medical facility and that the operator had all the discernment for proper technical qualifications in his staff of a fly by night carnival operator which directly led to the death of a young poor women?
after all this shiat you helped create you have the balls to keep complaining, for the one time in your life, of over-regulation of something?
 
2013-04-17 02:24:29 PM

skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: Yeah... read that list more closely. It's the same list I had; based on the website (for the clinic) the first three listings are the exact same place (despite different listed addresses), two others are simply larger organizations with no actual clinics near Philly.

The Philly clinics are all different. The S Jersey Woman's Center has 2 addresses but I don't know if that means 2 locations where services are provided. There's another unique clinic in there too within 10 miles. So at least 5, maybe 6 places to go

YoungLochinvar: Funding, as a potential barrier, is absolutely relevant. My understanding was a number of Gosnell's client were there because they couldn't afford legitimate places, which is a problem that public funding solves...

Look at the fees for the S Jersey Women's Clinic. Far less than what Doctor Demento charged

YoungLochinvar: I mean, if you wanna make abortions more difficult to obtain that's your prerogative - I'm just not sure why you think it'll be any more effective than, say, the war on drugs. Market demands are usually met, legally or otherwise, and this is the type of stuff that happens on the black market for abortion...

abortion should be safe and legal (to a point with restrictions). I am opposed to them from a personal perspective but if you want to get one, by all means. Just don't expect me to pay for it unless it is necessary to save your life or the result of rape.


I just looked at the websites for the orgs, I only found one address but maybe that's an issue with the websites (or me not searching the sites hard enough).

As far as cost, I'm guessing you're conflating Gosnell's late term prices with his early term prices:
http://www.keystonepolitics.com/2013/04/why-poor-women-went-to-kermi t- gosnells-clinic/

(The $330 Gosnell charges appears to be $100-$200 cheaper than the S Jersey clinic).

As far as having tax money pay for it - once again, that's your prerogative. But if people can't afford the legit places, they'll go to places like Gosnell's.
 
2013-04-17 02:25:24 PM

relcec: Fluorescent Testicle: vernonFL: Supposedly abortion clinics don't have to meet standards that other medical offices do - for example I heard that Dentists are regulated more than abortion clinics as far as cleanliness standards and such. I don't know if that last statement is even true. But that is what my anti-abortion friends have told me.

Your anti-choice friends lied to you. Pennsylvania has very strict laws.

THIS is amazing.
that you assholes have the balls to still complain about overzealous regulation in this specific geographic region AFTER we find out this dude has been crushing hundreds if not thousands of babies spinal cords and then stacking babies like cord-wood to putrefy while generally maintaining the hygiene at the facility more common in a high school locker room than a medical facility and that the operator had all the discernment for proper technical qualifications in his staff of a fly by night carnival operator which directly led to the death of a young poor women?
after all this shiat you helped create you have the balls to keep complaining, for the one time in your life, of over-regulation of something?


Wait if all that was legal why is he on trial?
 
2013-04-17 02:28:58 PM

relcec: jake_lex: The article does make an interesting point: how can there be people camped out there with the stated intent of shutting the place down not have noticed anything?

listen jake, it actually is a very stupid point only a moron or someone who is so ideologically bent they can even remain objective for 3 seconds it takes to analyze the retarded point would say it was interesting.
they are protestors.
they are not invited in to interview and verify the staff's medical credentials. they are not invited in look for unsafe practices. they are required by law to stay away from the clinic if they've ever been taken to court.
this guy had violation going back 20 years, but no one gave a shiat, perhaps because the only victims were the poor and probably pricks like you are so remarkably ideologically compromised you'd perform almost any task short of active cover up participation to defend and operation like this from regulation you find so remarkably in literally every other facet in commercial and medical life besides this one. you're what is f*cked up with america jake.


Is there ever a time you don't come off looking like an apoplectic frothing retard?
 
2013-04-17 02:30:44 PM

YoungLochinvar: I just looked at the websites for the orgs, I only found one address but maybe that's an issue with the websites (or me not searching the sites hard enough).

As far as cost, I'm guessing you're conflating Gosnell's late term prices with his early term prices:
http://www.keystonepolitics.com/2013/04/why-poor-women-went-to-kermi t- gosnells-clinic/

(The $330 Gosnell charges appears to be $100-$200 cheaper than the S Jersey clinic).


I might've been mixing up the late term/early term fees

YoungLochinvar: As far as having tax money pay for it - once again, that's your prerogative. But if people can't afford the legit places, they'll go to places like Gosnell's.


well it's not really my prerogative. Luckily our current law agrees with my feelings though. The Jersey place has assistance programs. Elective abortions aren't a concern of mine. I'd prefer to support a kid via tax dollars if need be over paying to have him preemptively terminated. If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.
 
2013-04-17 02:38:17 PM

skullkrusher: dude, there's no one praising this guy. One example of someone who has an incredibly high tolerance for monstrosity but no one cheering this guy


it's hyperbole. I was taking *he just wasn't a very good doctor - no need to vilify the man*  to 3 levels higher to show its absurdity.
"Actually, he performed a D&X.... poorly. Because he was a lousy doctor."
see? he was just a lousy doctor just like the lousy 15% you'll find in any other profession. let's move on.
you seriously have ideological derangement if you can't even admit this was an incredibly nasty case. if you are trying to downplay the seriousness of the accusations.

the ironic thing is this is exactly what pro choicers claim will happen if abortion is made illegal (and which I agree with), but instead of them saying holy shiat we need to make sure this never happens again you see them come in here and claim
1) the pro life folks fell down on the job,
2) it really wasn't that bad and he was just a subpar doctor
3) overzealous regulation caused this tragedy and the answer is less restrictions even though this guy didn't have a visit from the medical authorities in 20 years and never had his staff credentialed apparently.

it's scary how far ideologues of any persuasion are able to warp their minds to fit the uncomfortable facts they are confronted with. they literally cannot see facts as normal people do.
 
2013-04-17 02:39:01 PM

part of the problem: Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.


This is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur.  This is farking sick.

/Pro-choice liberal.

I would appreciate you retracting the bold part now.
 
2013-04-17 02:47:56 PM

madgonad: This is just another fine example of what happens when society becomes polarized over an issue. Both sides only see what they want to see and disregard the rest. This scumbag succeeded in hiding fairly well from the Right (possibly because it was a black doctor, serving a black population, in a black neighborhood - suburban housewives aren't quite so butthurt when the babies being aborted aren't white) - and the Left didn't go looking for bad clinics for fear of finding something which would erode support for their cause.


Sadly, a part of me thinks that the reason why abortion has a much higher approval rating now is because the average woman getting an abortion isn't a young white middle-class co-ed anymore, it's a poor minority woman who typically already has a kid.
 
2013-04-17 02:51:22 PM

skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.


That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?
 
2013-04-17 02:53:54 PM

Dr Dreidel: but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?


No.
 
2013-04-17 02:55:35 PM

shortymac: the average woman getting an abortion isn't a young white middle-class co-ed anymore, it's a poor minority woman who typically already has a kid.


Non-Hispanic white women account for 36% of abortions, non-Hispanic black women for 30%, Hispanic women for 25% and women of other races for 9%.[6]

About 61% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children. [6]

Link
 
2013-04-17 02:59:06 PM

Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?


No.
 
2013-04-17 03:01:33 PM

lennavan: Dr Dreidel: but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.


OK then. At least you've made an informed choice.

Hopefully, it also means you'd allow others that same choice, but (and I'm not assuming you're all about this) you can no longer pretend opposition is based on anything but your own morality. Which, again, is perfectly OK. I myself am "anti-"abortion in the sense that I don't think should get that far (contraception and Plan B should handle 90%ish of what would become abortions) - my own moral reasons.

However, if someone doesn't want to be a parent, I also think there's a certain morality in allowing them that choice (or at least, the morality of not bringing in an "unwanted" kid to more than likely suffer for the sins of the parents). Morality is a balancing act anyway.

// that last 10% is some laughably small number of "accidental pregnancies" where both parties used contraception as directed and Plan B failed to work as directed
// and the 90/10 split is not math-based, so it might be some other breakdown
 
2013-04-17 03:04:33 PM

skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.


I wish more people realized this
 
2013-04-17 03:07:42 PM

lennavan: part of the problem: Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.

This is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur.  This is farking sick.

/Pro-choice liberal.

I would appreciate you retracting the bold part now.


What you're forgetting is that there are only two sides to this debate. Either all abortions are morally reprehensible or all abortions are morally acceptable. And since philosophers like Peter Singer have argued that infanticide is the same thing as late-term abortion, if you find abortion morally acceptable, you must find what this doctor did morally acceptable. Ipso facto, you cannot find this doctor's actions sick.

/I wish there weren't people who thought this was actually the case
 
2013-04-17 03:08:44 PM

CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I wish more people realized this


realized what?
 
2013-04-17 03:10:37 PM

Dr Dreidel: Hopefully, it also means you'd allow others that same choice


Yup.

Dr Dreidel: you can no longer pretend opposition is based on anything but your own morality.


I think you're using the wrong word there in "opposition."  I'm not opposed to people getting abortions, I'm opposed to the possibility that I would be forced to help them get an abortion.

Dr Dreidel: I also think there's a certain morality in allowing them that choice


The phrase "allowing them that choice" makes my skin crawl.  Maybe I'm part libertarian.  So long as they aren't infringing on the rights of another person, who the fark am I to choose for other people?  So I'm pro-choice until the fetus becomes a person.
 
2013-04-17 03:10:52 PM

skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.


I would probably pay for the small price for the abortion than the larger price for an incarcerated loser kid that wasn't conceived intentionally. But that's me the Conservative, always thinking about dollars and sense.

(Back.)
 
2013-04-17 03:13:47 PM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I would probably pay for the small price for the abortion than the larger price for an incarcerated loser kid that wasn't conceived intentionally. But that's me the Conservative, always thinking about dollars and sense.

(Back.)


meh, I'd rather see the kid given a shot regardless of how remote and help him out if he needs it.
 
2013-04-17 03:18:28 PM

skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I would probably pay for the small price for the abortion than the larger price for an incarcerated loser kid that wasn't conceived intentionally. But that's me the Conservative, always thinking about dollars and sense.

(Back.)

meh, I'd rather see the kid given a shot regardless of how remote and help him out if he needs it.


Implying it's an either/or.
 
2013-04-17 03:23:06 PM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I would probably pay for the small price for the abortion than the larger price for an incarcerated loser kid that wasn't conceived intentionally. But that's me the Conservative, always thinking about dollars and sense.

(Back.)

meh, I'd rather see the kid given a shot regardless of how remote and help him out if he needs it.

Implying it's an either/or.


huh?
 
2013-04-17 03:34:58 PM

lennavan: The phrase "allowing them that choice" makes my skin crawl. Maybe I'm part libertarian. So long as they aren't infringing on the rights of another person, who the fark am I to choose for other people? So I'm pro-choice until the fetus becomes a person.


"There's a certain morality in not opposing the choice from being presented." I dunno how to phrase it - sounds like you got my point (and I think I got yours). Nothing wrong with disagreement.

skullkrusher: I'd rather see the kid given a shot regardless of how remote and help him out if he needs it.


A true bleeding-heart is you. :)
 
2013-04-17 03:35:09 PM

skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I wish more people realized this

realized what?


That the people get paid for at some point. You have a pragmatic position; you disagree with abortion but you know its results and you would prefer to support the kids.
 
2013-04-17 03:37:15 PM

CPennypacker: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I wish more people realized this

realized what?

That the people get paid for at some point. You have a pragmatic position; you disagree with abortion but you know its results and you would prefer to support the kids.


oh, gotcha. Well, the pragmatist in me supports free contraception when and if that leads to lower unintentional pregnancies but I am not willing to pay for abortion for those savings.
 
2013-04-17 03:37:51 PM

Dr Dreidel: A true bleeding-heart is you. :)


been trying to tell you farkers that for years ;)
 
2013-04-17 04:56:29 PM

skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I wish more people realized this

realized what?

That the people get paid for at some point. You have a pragmatic position; you disagree with abortion but you know its results and you would prefer to support the kids.

oh, gotcha. Well, the pragmatist in me supports free contraception when and if that leads to lower unintentional pregnancies but I am not willing to pay for abortion for those savings.


Why, because your blood God might turn your wife into salt?
 
2013-04-17 04:58:10 PM

skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I would probably pay for the small price for the abortion than the larger price for an incarcerated loser kid that wasn't conceived intentionally. But that's me the Conservative, always thinking about dollars and sense.

(Back.)

meh, I'd rather see the kid given a shot regardless of how remote and help him out if he needs it.

Implying it's an either/or.

huh?


Exactly.
 
2013-04-17 05:03:54 PM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I wish more people realized this

realized what?

That the people get paid for at some point. You have a pragmatic position; you disagree with abortion but you know its results and you would prefer to support the kids.

oh, gotcha. Well, the pragmatist in me supports free contraception when and if that leads to lower unintentional pregnancies but I am not willing to pay for abortion for those savings.

Why, because your blood God might turn your wife into salt?


no, I just have philosophical and spiritual issues with abortion. I'm not very religious but I do have theistic leanings and I have moral issues with abortion when not meant to save a person's life. Thank you for showing your true, douchebag colors though, Mr Genuine Conservative.

You're not a terribly bright guy. You might want to tone it down.
 
2013-04-17 05:04:05 PM

madgonad: Others are derived from the overall Conservative orthodoxy of pussy control.


As a dyed in the wool lib I'm not opposed to thorough background checks, but IMHO registration is out of the question.
 
2013-04-17 05:06:05 PM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Wessoman: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I would probably pay for the small price for the abortion than the larger price for an incarcerated loser kid that wasn't conceived intentionally. But that's me the Conservative, always thinking about dollars and sense.

(Back.)

meh, I'd rather see the kid given a shot regardless of how remote and help him out if he needs it.

Implying it's an either/or.

huh?

Exactly.


no, not "Exactly". That doesn't make any sense as a response. That's the sort of thing halfwits say when they know they're in over their head. By the way, have you figured out why your "slippery slope" nonsense from before was a function of your being an idiot and not anything I said or are you still a Genuine Illiterate?
 
2013-04-17 05:11:45 PM

Wessoman: Why, because your blood God might turn your wife into salt?


Wait, so he's pro-choice, wants to pay for free contraceptives for women, is happy to chip in for medically necessary abortions but draws the line at paying for optional ones so naturally that makes him a bible thumper?

Holy fark dude, it must be a trip living in BinaryWorld.
 
2013-04-17 05:12:57 PM
skullkrusher:
no, I just have philosophical and spiritual issues with abortion. I'm not very religious but I do have theistic leanings and I have moral issues with abortion when not meant to save a person's life. Thank you for showing your true, douchebag colors though, Mr Genuine Conservative.
You're not a terribly bright guy. You might want to tone it down.

So your philosophical and spiritual issues with Abortion have an increased fiscal cost for society. I am sorry, but funding women's healthcare, and the occasional abortion, makes financial sense for society. Your philosophical beliefs don't. Especially since you don't exactly have a Uterus and really shouldn't have a say in the matter.

And nice Ad Hominem there, as well as a projection too.
 
2013-04-17 05:14:43 PM

skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I wish more people realized this

realized what?

That the people get paid for at some point. You have a pragmatic position; you disagree with abortion but you know its results and you would prefer to support the kids.

oh, gotcha. Well, the pragmatist in me supports free contraception when and if that leads to lower unintentional pregnancies but I am not willing to pay for abortion for those savings.


Yeah, that's at least a consistent position, which I can respect. Seems too many in the pro-life camp seem to think that restrictions on abortion won't lead to more children needing financial support, somehow...
 
2013-04-17 05:15:50 PM

lennavan: Wessoman: Why, because your blood God might turn your wife into salt?

Wait, so he's pro-choice, wants to pay for free contraceptives for women, is happy to chip in for medically necessary abortions but draws the line at paying for optional ones so naturally that makes him a bible thumper?

Holy fark dude, it must be a trip living in BinaryWorld.


It is. But I don't really compromise with a woman's right to choose, as long as Abortion is safe, legal, and above all rare. Of course, provided society does it's job, Abortions themselves should be rare. Nevertheless, there are exceptions, and I don't think I have ever spoken to any woman who uses Abortion in lieu of contraception.
 
2013-04-17 05:15:53 PM

YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I wish more people realized this

realized what?

That the people get paid for at some point. You have a pragmatic position; you disagree with abortion but you know its results and you would prefer to support the kids.

oh, gotcha. Well, the pragmatist in me supports free contraception when and if that leads to lower unintentional pregnancies but I am not willing to pay for abortion for those savings.

Yeah, that's at least a consistent position, which I can respect. Seems too many in the pro-life camp seem to think that restriction ...


(Not that you're pro-life, mind you...)
 
2013-04-17 05:16:28 PM

Wessoman: So your philosophical and spiritual issues with Abortion have an increased fiscal cost for society. I am sorry, but funding women's healthcare, and the occasional abortion, makes financial sense for society. Your philosophical beliefs don't. Especially since you don't exactly have a Uterus and really shouldn't have a say in the matter.


I shouldn't have a say in the matter of whether my money funds something? Yeah, you're a real "Genuine Conservative".

Wessoman: And nice Ad Hominem there, as well as a projection too.


I'm sorry, were you expecting a respectful response to your "blood god" post, you pants pissing farkwit?
 
2013-04-17 05:17:22 PM

YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: CPennypacker: skullkrusher: Dr Dreidel: skullkrusher: If you want to elect to have an abortion which isn't medically necessary, I am not going to stop you but I don't want to be a part of it.

That's fine.

Just understand that you WILL be a part of it one way or another. You're on the hook for paying for that kid's education, sure, but "unwanted" kids are more often than not going to need school lunch help, and their families will more likely be taking advantage of programs like TANF, and SNAP (and, while the kid's gestating, WIC). And even with all that, what are the odds the kid is well-nourished? Assuming the kid's getting his vitamins, what are the odds they live in a stable family environment (especially considering we know mom already didn't want the kid)?

Not to mention the third-, fourth- and fifth- (...nth-)order problems - a kid growing up in the conditions above is more likely to not finish HS (and even if so, less than likely to attend or even graduate college), more likely to be involved in crime (and if it's drug- or sex-crime, hooray more expensive incarceration with all the health problems), and in general less likely to net-contribute to society.

Not to say it can't be done, or that "unwanted" kids will necessarily end up homeless junkies sucking dick for lines of Velveeta, but wouldn't you rather pay for an infinitesimally small part of a $100 abortion than all of that?

No.

I wish more people realized this

realized what?

That the people get paid for at some point. You have a pragmatic position; you disagree with abortion but you know its results and you would prefer to support the kids.

oh, gotcha. Well, the pragmatist in me supports free contraception when and if that leads to lower unintentional pregnancies but I am not willing to pay for abortion for those savings.

Yeah, that's at least a consistent position, which I can respect. Seems too many in the pro-life camp seem to think that restriction ...


of course it will. We'll make room for more :)
 
2013-04-17 05:19:29 PM

skullkrusher: no, not "Exactly". That doesn't make any sense as a response. That's the sort of thing halfwits say when they know they're in over their head. By the way, have you figured out why your "slippery slope" nonsense from before was a function of your being an idiot and not anything I said or are you still a Genuine Illiterate?


And you missed the point entirely. Subsidizing a small taxable amount for women's health care, including abortion, as well as women's health care that is not abortion related whatsoever, as well as social work for disfortunate children are not mutually exclusive concepts. But you know, just get angry. That will solve everything.
 
2013-04-17 05:21:04 PM

Wessoman: lennavan: Wessoman: Why, because your blood God might turn your wife into salt?

Wait, so he's pro-choice, wants to pay for free contraceptives for women, is happy to chip in for medically necessary abortions but draws the line at paying for optional ones so naturally that makes him a bible thumper?

Holy fark dude, it must be a trip living in BinaryWorld.

It is. But I don't really compromise with a woman's right to choose, as long as Abortion is safe, legal, and above all rare. Of course, provided society does it's job, Abortions themselves should be rare. Nevertheless, there are exceptions, and I don't think I have ever spoken to any woman who uses Abortion in lieu of contraception.



Wanna hear something awkward?  I bet skullkrusher agrees with everything you wrote.  He's not compromising with her right to choose.  He's saying he's not going to help her pay for it if it's optional.  There is a huge difference there.
 
2013-04-17 05:21:19 PM

YoungLochinvar: skullkrusher: YoungLochinvar: Yeah... read that list more closely. It's the same list I had; based on the website (for the clinic) the first three listings are the exact same place (despite different listed addresses), two others are simply larger organizations with no actual clinics near Philly.

The Philly clinics are all different. The S Jersey Woman's Center has 2 addresses but I don't know if that means 2 locations where services are provided. There's another unique clinic in there too within 10 miles. So at least 5, maybe 6 places to go

YoungLochinvar: Funding, as a potential barrier, is absolutely relevant. My understanding was a number of Gosnell's client were there because they couldn't afford legitimate places, which is a problem that public funding solves...

Look at the fees for the S Jersey Women's Clinic. Far less than what Doctor Demento charged

YoungLochinvar: I mean, if you wanna make abortions more difficult to obtain that's your prerogative - I'm just not sure why you think it'll be any more effective than, say, the war on drugs. Market demands are usually met, legally or otherwise, and this is the type of stuff that happens on the black market for abortion...

abortion should be safe and legal (to a point with restrictions). I am opposed to them from a personal perspective but if you want to get one, by all means. Just don't expect me to pay for it unless it is necessary to save your life or the result of rape.

relcec: skullkrusher: madgonad: skullkrusher: are you joking? This motherfarker (allegedly) killed babies. He (allegedly) killed a women. He ran a "medical" practice under the most abhorrent conditions. What else does he have to do to be called a "monster"?

Actually, he performed a D&X.... poorly. Because he was a lousy doctor. A D&X is a procedure done in some third trimester abortions (which he shouldn't even be doing). It involves damaging the brain/severing the spinal column during extraction (while still in the mother). The reason for this is while a 24-28 week fetus will die very shortly after being removed, it doesn't happen immediately and the procedure was designed to guarantee that fetus would not be alive outside of the mother at all. This farkstick apparently did an intact extraction and didn't terminate the fetus until the end. It is a vague area of law, but technically abortions are allowed when fetal life signs are terminated in utero while terminating them outside of the mother can be considered infanticide.

arbitrariness of the law notwithstanding, that is what he's accused of. He performed illegal 3rd trimester abortions. He had stacks of aborted fetuses in farking cat food containers. I think you have the bar for monstrosity set a bit high

a monster? he's practically a hero!
see skull, you just way over analyze this. you need to see things as pure black and white right and wrong like pro choicers do around here.
they have a very simple test, in the grand scheme of things do I agree with what he was doing? well you like having late term abortions available right?
then the's charges are overblown, and the people who would like to string him up are really to blame for not being diligent enough.
if the answer is yes and the man is being attacked you must downplay his alleged crimes and attempt to defend what he did in any way possible while also attacking the people that disagree with you.

Everyone wants him strung up, you goddamned moron.


Hell, if he SOMEHOW gets off on "mental health" or because of some bureaucratic fluke, he'll go down in history as the only lynching victem who deserved it. Although, he may come back with the power to preform late term abortions IN YOUR DREAMS! (Call Hollywood, they're pretty desperate for ideas).
But when this bastard is convicted, they should make his execution a carnival. No, seriously! "Step right up and throw the metal ball at the doctor of death! 10 points if you get him in the stomach, 50 if you bean him in the head, 75 for a crotch shot, and 100 if you knock out a tooth!" It's one thing all of us can unify on, be you pro-choice or pro-life, Christian or athist, straight or gay, libreal or conservative!
 
2013-04-17 05:24:06 PM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: no, not "Exactly". That doesn't make any sense as a response. That's the sort of thing halfwits say when they know they're in over their head. By the way, have you figured out why your "slippery slope" nonsense from before was a function of your being an idiot and not anything I said or are you still a Genuine Illiterate?

And you missed the point entirely. Subsidizing a small taxable amount for women's health care, including abortion, as well as women's health care that is not abortion related whatsoever, as well as social work for disfortunate children are not mutually exclusive concepts. But you know, just get angry. That will solve everything.


who said that were? Yeah, I get annoyed when either A) dishonest shiatbags mischaracterize what I say or B) mouthbreathing farkwits presume to talk to me.

Column A or Column B? Perhaps they're not mutually exclusive either?
 
2013-04-17 05:34:14 PM

Wessoman: Abortion is safe, legal, and above all rare


Safe, legal, and rare is the worst slogan ever. Thanks, Clinton administration.
 
2013-04-17 05:53:17 PM
I do blame the anti-abortion movement. Gosnell had unlicensed staff. Why go to an unlicensed doctor? Because he was cheap. Poor women are not allowed to use any public funding for abortions, so they have to save up the money on their own. That means they get abortions later, and they try to get cheaper abortions. In other words, they go to back-alley butchers, just as they did before abortion was legal. Anti-abortion activists have driven more reputable doctors out of business, and they try to shut down or cut off funding for Planned Parenthood (whether the clinics provide abortions or not).

If the anti-abortion crowd has its way, there will be more Gosnells out there, not fewer. Add that to the fact that so many of these so-called anti-abortion people are also anti-birth control and anti-sex education, and they are virtually building a whole army of Gosnells. Gosnell is a monster, no doubt about that. But the anti-abortion movement is the Doctor Frankenstein that built him.
 
2013-04-17 05:53:18 PM

skullkrusher: I'm sorry, were you expecting a respectful response to your "blood god" post, you pants pissing farkwit?


skullkrusher: who said that were? Yeah, I get annoyed when either A) dishonest shiatbags mischaracterize what I say or B) mouthbreathing farkwits presume to talk to me.

Column A or Column B? Perhaps they're not mutually exclusive either?


lennavan: Wanna hear something awkward? I bet skullkrusher agrees with everything you wrote. He's not compromising with her right to choose. He's saying he's not going to help her pay for it if it's optional. There is a huge difference there.


Actually yes. There is not much difference between Skullkrusher and I's innate philosophies. Since Skullkrusher throws a Honey Boo Boo like tantrum when people presume to speak for him, I will wager and guess that he sees Abortion as a personal responsibility issue. You see, I would guess that if a woman were to become pregnant, and then choose not to have the child, then he, as a taxpayer, should not in anyway subsidize the abortion because it was her personal responsibility that she got knocked up in the first place, and why should Skullkrusher, or anybody else for that matter, pay for the abortion. That is a reasoned and fair analysis.

Where I differ is that seeing women of color, or the state of education in some regions of the Republic, I find that very often there is not the access of contraception for women who choose to exercize their sexuality. Furthermore, there is a definite societal drag and fiscal cost for having unwanted children born into society. To me, the costs of an unwanted child would more than mitigate the subsidization of the occasional non-medical Abortion. I mean, since we are paying for F-22's and tax breaks for the wealthy, I think it's a wiser usage of societal resources.

So basically, the moral and philosophical arguments against abortion still come from misuse of religion and superstition. While I am not Atheist, I do not factor philosophy into the Abortion argument.

So yes, I understand the differences, Lennavan, and I disagree with Skullkrusher on that key point. But he's easily wound up, and I am enjoying see him turn red for a bit. And yes, I am a Troll jerk.
 
2013-04-17 07:54:47 PM

Fart_Machine: Mrbogey: part of the problem: The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.

They feel as if they give even and inch or close down one clinic... that anything that the anti-abortion side will be happy about... it's a loss for their side.

They often say "safe, legal, and rare" but "safe" has no concern really. They use "safe" as a modifier for legal. Regulations designed to keep this from happening are called "hyper regulations" designed to shut down clinics. Inspections are treated as an attack.

When Louisiana closed down the New Orleans East clinic there was outrage by abortion rights activists even though there was the same health issues as what Gosnell's clinic was being accused of. Thankfully, IIRC, no woman died there before they shut it down.

Trolls responding to trolls responding to trolls...


yo dawg...
 
2013-04-17 08:08:20 PM
part of the problem: Marcus Aurelius: The anti-abortionists drove the procedure out of hospitals and into back alleyways. This is the result of all their hard work.

Not accurate.
The clinic model was once believed to be a win for women's rights as it kept abortion out of the control of the hospital industry. Didnt work out so well but facts are facts.

Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.


Dear Problem:

I am a farkin flamin librul hippie, like my dad, who was also a farkin badass firefighter.

I think this was some farkin monstrous shiat. It should not have been farking permitted to farkin occur.
In that, you spoke correctly and I do indeed concur.

However: YOU...do not tell ME what MY farkin ideology IS, nor do you determine whether it is "puuuure" according to some farked up b*llsh*t pseudo-standard that some drug-addict whackball cable TV news millionaire screaming-head freako flabbers from his nether orifice after a Po-Babby Sammich at Joe's Godly All-American Red-White-&-Blue Greasy Spoon Cafe.
I DETERMINE THAT and my thoughts are as ideologically impure as the day is long.
 
2013-04-17 08:53:37 PM

Wessoman: skullkrusher: I'm sorry, were you expecting a respectful response to your "blood god" post, you pants pissing farkwit?

skullkrusher: who said that were? Yeah, I get annoyed when either A) dishonest shiatbags mischaracterize what I say or B) mouthbreathing farkwits presume to talk to me.

Column A or Column B? Perhaps they're not mutually exclusive either?

lennavan: Wanna hear something awkward? I bet skullkrusher agrees with everything you wrote. He's not compromising with her right to choose. He's saying he's not going to help her pay for it if it's optional. There is a huge difference there.

Actually yes. There is not much difference between Skullkrusher and I's innate philosophies. Since Skullkrusher throws a Honey Boo Boo like tantrum when people presume to speak for him, I will wager and guess that he sees Abortion as a personal responsibility issue. You see, I would guess that if a woman were to become pregnant, and then choose not to have the child, then he, as a taxpayer, should not in anyway subsidize the abortion because it was her personal responsibility that she got knocked up in the first place, and why should Skullkrusher, or anybody else for that matter, pay for the abortion. That is a reasoned and fair analysis.

Where I differ is that seeing women of color, or the state of education in some regions of the Republic, I find that very often there is not the access of contraception for women who choose to exercize their sexuality. Furthermore, there is a definite societal drag and fiscal cost for having unwanted children born into society. To me, the costs of an unwanted child would more than mitigate the subsidization of the occasional non-medical Abortion. I mean, since we are paying for F-22's and tax breaks for the wealthy, I think it's a wiser usage of societal resources.

So basically, the moral and philosophical arguments against abortion still come from misuse of religion and superstition. While I am not Atheist, I do not factor philosophy in ...


You also forget that abusive partners will practice reproductive coercion.

They will refuse condoms, throw out BC pills, and have even torn out UTIs. They want the victim to be completely dependent upon them, the quickest way to do that is to have a kid with them.

It's already difficult to leave abusive men, add a kid into the mix and it's 100x harder.
 
2013-04-17 09:44:36 PM

lennavan: part of the problem: Why is it so hard for liberals to just say this is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur nevermind what you think of abortion?

The simple answer is that liberals are incapable of thinking ideologically impire thoughts. Or any other kind of thoughts for that matter. Just admit this is sick, politics be dammed.

This is a horrible and monstrous event that should never have been allowed to occur.  This is farking sick.

/Pro-choice liberal.

I would appreciate you retracting the bold part now.


The simple answer is that conservatives are incapable of admitting that their stereotype doesn't apply to all liberals.
 
2013-04-17 11:38:38 PM

Nabb1: The people who have politicized this make me sick. Besides, it's their side's fault this happened.


I see you agree with the idiotic logic that the horrors that transpired inside a licensed, legal abortion clinic are somehow the fault of the protestors on the outside?

Shame on you, seriously.
 
2013-04-17 11:53:54 PM
First no liberal media covered this story. It ran on Fox News for weeks while no one else covered it. I wondered if all the stories were true, why nobody else reported it.

Then the Wash Post ran a story about the shameful lack of coverage and the flood gates opened. Suddenly, its worth reporting but best if you can spin this clinic as some backalley-coathanger-illegal operation. Except that's not what it was. It was a licensed abortion clinic with a sign on the street.


The truth is that this should not be about protecting guys like this for the sake of plan B. Late term abortions should be universally banned. In fact no abortions after the fourth month should be allowed.

Instead of downplaying or protecting the Gosnells in this business, liberals should be protecting the babies that have developed to t he point where they are human.
 
2013-04-18 09:01:27 AM

Animatronik: First no liberal media covered this story. It ran on Fox News for weeks while no one else covered it. I wondered if all the stories were true, why nobody else reported it.

Then the Wash Post ran a story about the shameful lack of coverage and the flood gates opened. Suddenly, its worth reporting but best if you can spin this clinic as some backalley-coathanger-illegal operation. Except that's not what it was. It was a licensed abortion clinic with a sign on the street.


The truth is that this should not be about protecting guys like this for the sake of plan B. Late term abortions should be universally banned. In fact no abortions after the fourth month should be allowed.

Instead of downplaying or protecting the Gosnells in this business, liberals should be protecting the babies that have developed to t he point where they are human.


Dude there is no media blackout, it was all over the news when the story broke back in 2011. There were fark threads about it.

Libby feminist blogs like jezebel have been following the case closely.

This is not a liberal or conservative issue, he is a horrible monster no matter where you fall on the political spectrum.

How about we work together to prevent another Gosnell from happening instead of playing the blame game.
 
2013-04-18 10:17:08 AM
 
2013-04-18 12:53:05 PM

Wessoman: There is not much difference between Skullkrusher and I's innate philosophies. ... I will wager and guess that he sees Abortion as ...

So basically, the moral and philosophical arguments against abortion still come from misuse of religion and superstition. While I am not Atheist, I do not factor philosophy into the Abortion argument.

So yes, I understand the differences, Lennavan, and I disagree with Skullkrusher on that key point. But he's easily wound up, and I am enjoying see him turn red for a bit. And yes, I am a Troll jerk.


Right.  So you two agree on the vast majority of the issue.  One single tiny component you disagree on you totally imagine the reason is because of religion, therefore you decided to troll him.

Seems reasonable.
 
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