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(Snopes)   How awful has the coverage of the Gosnell mass murder trial been? Even Snopes has to chime in and say, yes, this story is really true   (snopes.com) divider line 170
    More: Sad, Dr. Kermit Gosnell, Irin Carmon, Twittersphere, Christianity Today, Nexis  
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16765 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Apr 2013 at 7:19 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-17 07:21:53 AM
On the other hand, fark people who are trying to turn this into some anti-abortion diatribe, or are politicising it for their own ends.

Kermit Gosnell was influenced by theories of racism and eugenics. He is on record as saying he would have done what he did regardless if abortion was legal or not, and that he feels like he did nothing wrong.

This was not about abortion. He knew what he was doing was illegal, unethical, and monsterous, and did it anyway. He's a murderer.

If you want facts about the case, DO NOT listen to the media. Read the Grand Jury findings on the case.
 
2013-04-17 07:22:41 AM
You have to be purposely avoiding it at this point to miss it.

Media isn't your personal army, christians.
 
2013-04-17 07:23:31 AM
Man, this is a disgusting case. Definitely nothing to do with the larger abortion debate, unless you want to talk about that this is why late term abortions are illegal.
 
2013-04-17 07:27:17 AM

hardinparamedic: On the other hand, fark people who are trying to turn this into some anti-abortion diatribe, or are politicising it for their own ends.

Kermit Gosnell was influenced by theories of racism and eugenics. He is on record as saying he would have done what he did regardless if abortion was legal or not, and that he feels like he did nothing wrong.

This was not about abortion. He knew what he was doing was illegal, unethical, and monsterous, and did it anyway. He's a murderer.

If you want facts about the case, DO NOT listen to the media. Read the Grand Jury findings on the case.


What he did was not substantively different than any other abortionist. You can make the argument that a fetus is not a baby (or not alive or whatever), but it's a difficult one to sustain without providing a bright line that has some scientific or medical reality attached to it. And no, the 6 inches between the uterus and the atmosphere is not a reasonable line.

And don't get all huffy because I think you're a hypocrite, I'm one on plenty of subjects, too.
 
2013-04-17 07:28:28 AM
This was not about abortion. He knew what he was doing was illegal, unethical, and monsterous, and did it anyway. He's a murderer.

Hear hear.  And Columbine and all the other shootings are NOT about gun control, right?  I
 
2013-04-17 07:29:41 AM

ChubbyTiger: What he did was not substantively different than any other abortionist.


Yeah, run with that.
 
2013-04-17 07:30:29 AM
Man it was too early in the morning to read that horrifying article. I don't know what makes me sicker, that there's a guy out there who did this for so long or that he was busy the whole time.
 
2013-04-17 07:30:55 AM
You know who voted for late term abortions?

Your Messiah, Obama.
Stay Classy Killa!
 
2013-04-17 07:30:59 AM

ChubbyTiger: hardinparamedic: On the other hand, fark people who are trying to turn this into some anti-abortion diatribe, or are politicising it for their own ends.

Kermit Gosnell was influenced by theories of racism and eugenics. He is on record as saying he would have done what he did regardless if abortion was legal or not, and that he feels like he did nothing wrong.

This was not about abortion. He knew what he was doing was illegal, unethical, and monsterous, and did it anyway. He's a murderer.

If you want facts about the case, DO NOT listen to the media. Read the Grand Jury findings on the case.

What he did was not substantively different than any other abortionist. You can make the argument that a fetus is not a baby (or not alive or whatever), but it's a difficult one to sustain without providing a bright line that has some scientific or medical reality attached to it. And no, the 6 inches between the uterus and the atmosphere is not a reasonable line.

And don't get all huffy because I think you're a hypocrite, I'm one on plenty of subjects, too.


Save your BS.  Nobody is stupid enough to believe that an 8 or 9 month baby is the same as a 2 month fetus.
 
2013-04-17 07:31:07 AM
Don't like abortion? Don't have one.
 
2013-04-17 07:31:21 AM

ChubbyTiger: What he did was not substantively different than any other abortionist.


Not sure if serious, or complete idiot......

He performed late term abortions, which delivered a fetus alive. Federal and state law require any clinic providing abortive services at the age of viability to provide for neonatal resuscitation and transport in the event a fetus shows signs of life.

ChubbyTiger: You can make the argument that a fetus is not a baby (or not alive or whatever), but it's a difficult one to sustain without providing a bright line that has some scientific or medical reality attached to it


Most abortions in the United States, in fact - >95% of them, occur before 14 weeks of gestation. The lowest age a fetus has survived has been 21 weeks in isolated cases, where the fetus has been delivered in a high-acuity medical center.

www.nuffieldbioethics.org

ChubbyTiger: And don't get all huffy because I think you're a hypocrite, I'm one on plenty of subjects, too.


I'm not huffy at all. I'm just pointing out you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
2013-04-17 07:31:45 AM

JohnnyRebel88: You know who voted for late term abortions?

Your Messiah, Obama.
Stay Classy Killa!


The early troll get's the worm!
 
2013-04-17 07:33:46 AM

hardinparamedic: I'm not huffy at all. I'm just pointing out you have no idea what you're talking about.


Or being deliberately dishonest.
 
2013-04-17 07:35:18 AM

Ed Grubermann: hardinparamedic: I'm not huffy at all. I'm just pointing out you have no idea what you're talking about.

Or being deliberately dishonest.


Yeah. That too.
 
2013-04-17 07:35:22 AM
So someone (pro life zealots) thinks a murder trial should get the same media attention as the Boston tragedy.

Well boo, hoo.
 
2013-04-17 07:36:30 AM

DubtodaIll: Man it was too early in the morning to read that horrifying article. I don't know what makes me sicker, that there's a guy out there who did this for so long or that he was busy the whole time.


No other abortion providers available. Women will terminate unwanted pregnancies, have for at least 11000 years, will continue to do it for another 11000, and these women obviously thought that this guy was safer than doing it themselves. Which they would have done, were there zero abortion providers.
 
2013-04-17 07:37:42 AM

ChubbyTiger: What he did was not substantively different than any other abortionist.


Unless you consider legality to be substantive.
There's also a substantive difference between late-term and first trimester abortions, hence why the former is severely restricted (and even us pro-abortion people support keeping it that way) but you probably don't want to hear about that, what with all the hypocrisy still out there you must find for us.
 
2013-04-17 07:38:16 AM

HotWingConspiracy: You have to be purposely avoiding it at this point to miss it.


*raises hand*

still doing my best
 
2013-04-17 07:39:32 AM

nocturnal001: Definitely nothing to do with the larger abortion debate


OH it definitely does, but not the way right wingers think.

If abortions are made illegal, they will still happen, they'll just be done in seedy practices like this to the detriment of the health of women.

But as we all know, most anti abortionists don't care about women, they care about foetuses (until they're born, and then they magically stop caring).  A lot of them would normally be very happy to see these obvious sluts being punished for the sin of sex with STDs and death.

That women who were that heavily pregnant were seeking abortions tell me that that area has a lack of proper women's health organisations.  These women should have been able to get the abortions they needed months before this was necessary.

So in a way, by restricting access to services like Planned Parenthood, the right wingers have contributed to this man's practice existing in the first place.
 
2013-04-17 07:39:43 AM
This isn't an abortion case any more than it would be a dental issue if some dentist was giving their patients HIV intentionally. What THIS asshat did was outside both the scope of his profession, as well as the law.

I get that anti-abortionists who believe a baby is a baby is a baby see no difference in the reality, or the morality. However, that's not what the law currently says (which of course is why they're trying to change it, just as I would try to change it if it wasn't the law) and it simply cannot convince those who aren't on your side because we're not working from the same premise.

Both sides of the abortion debate, if they have a strong opinion, believe their side is the best and most moral. Middle ground people recognize it as a lousy issue of personal choice, much like divorce or any other number of things. If you believe it to be murder, of course you have to be against it.

However all the arguments I've seen in trying to convince people of that either rely on the supernatural (soul type arguments) or relies on appeals to emotionalism (pictures, etc.).

And rational debate is difficult when someone truly believes that it's BABIES being MURDERED. I mean shiat...if I truly believed that, I'd be seriously doing something about it. Not doing something would be akin to ignoring a concentration camp.

Me personally, I'm pro-choice. I'm not even against late term abortions under very specific circumstances (life of mother in jeopardy or severe fetal disease such as Tay-Sachs). But THIS asshat in the article? Yeah, mass murderer. We can all agree on that, for obvious reasons.

But to win people over to the anti abortion side, you'd have to convince me it's a baby being murdered, and that's simply not going to be possible given the scientific evidence we have currently. That leaves no real room for debate there. So you have to win the middle ground, or try to make your viewpoints law. But the ranting and railing and extremism...they're not going to win over anyone on either side of this issue.

And tbh, there's a lot of bad shiat in the world. There's plenty of kids who need help who are here. Seems to me the time would be better spent insuring no kid died of preventable disease, starvation or languished in an orphanage before we worry about the fetuses or contraception issues.
 
2013-04-17 07:40:30 AM

nocturnal001: Definitely nothing to do with the larger abortion debate


I disagree on this. It has a lot to do with the larger abortion debate and could actually help, Some facts it illuminates:

1. Everyone hates killing babies. It's wrong, it's not a right, and it should never happen. Period. Viable babies get kicked out and adopted.
2. Poorly regulated abortion services trend towards horrible abuses like this. If abortion were illegal, this kind of butcher shop would be the norm.

There are slivers of common ground here but everyone is just dropping into their usual defensive crouch and talking past the other side.
 
2013-04-17 07:40:58 AM

log_jammin: HotWingConspiracy: You have to be purposely avoiding it at this point to miss it.

*raises hand*

still doing my best


You're better off. Still though, this case will be cited for....ever by the anti crowd so it's useful to have some knowledge of the situation.
 
2013-04-17 07:41:16 AM

JohnnyRebel88: You know who voted for late term abortions?

Your Messiah, Obama.
Stay Classy Killa!


Yes, sweetie, we know. OBAMA! HE'S BLACK! OOGA BOOGA!

/I feel sorry for you and all the rest of the severely mentally handicapped.
 
2013-04-17 07:42:23 AM

KeatingFive: DubtodaIll: Man it was too early in the morning to read that horrifying article. I don't know what makes me sicker, that there's a guy out there who did this for so long or that he was busy the whole time.

No other abortion providers available. Women will terminate unwanted pregnancies, have for at least 11000 years, will continue to do it for another 11000, and these women obviously thought that this guy was safer than doing it themselves. Which they would have done, were there zero abortion providers.


Yeah I get that, and people are free to make their own decisions, it's just those descriptions of the hygiene in his clinic and his methods made me queasy.
 
2013-04-17 07:42:30 AM
I fully expect lots more stories like this one, all coming from the idiot-led states that have found ways to effectively ban legal abortions.
 
2013-04-17 07:43:01 AM

HotWingConspiracy: You're better off. Still though, this case will be cited for....ever by the anti crowd so it's useful to have some knowledge of the situation.


despite my best I'm sure I'll learn a lot more than I want to in short order.
 
2013-04-17 07:43:56 AM
Wow, i haven't paid too much attention to this story other than being horrified by some headlines, but from these comments apparently it's making alot of pro-choicers very uncomfortable.
 
2013-04-17 07:44:16 AM

KeatingFive: JohnnyRebel88: You know who voted for late term abortions?

Your Messiah, Obama.
Stay Classy Killa!

Yes, sweetie, we know. OBAMA! HE'S BLACK! OOGA BOOGA!

/I feel sorry for you and all the rest of the severely mentally handicapped.


Aww, heck I didn't even notice that you were a Nazi sympathizer! Well, I'm not surprised, lots of you rebels are that way.
 
2013-04-17 07:45:26 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Wow, i haven't paid too much attention to this story other than being horrified by some headlines, but from these comments apparently it's making alot of pro-choicers very uncomfortable.


No, it isn't, but you never were one to care about observable facts.
 
2013-04-17 07:46:10 AM
I'm curious, was there not another safe clinic around?  Say what you want about abortion but if you continue to demonize it then there are women who will fell like this guy was their only option.

I can't believe every woman who went in there felt safe. I will bet they all felt they had nowhere else to go.

Oh yeah, in the Bible the only reference I found to abortion treats it as a property crime. If a man caused a woman to miscarry and the woman was ok then the husband could decide on a punishment which was mostly a monetary amount.

Betcha didn't know that.
 
2013-04-17 07:47:14 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Wow, i haven't paid too much attention to this story other than being horrified by some headlines, but from these comments apparently it's making alot of pro-choicers very uncomfortable.


Which comments?

As far as I can see this is the perfect argument against banning legal abortion.
 
2013-04-17 07:48:15 AM

hardinparamedic: On the other hand, fark people who are trying to turn this into some anti-abortion diatribe, or are politicising it for their own ends.


Indeed. It's a bad idea, it's dangerous but that's the way it is.
 
2013-04-17 07:49:08 AM
Don't misunderstand, I'm not making a legal argument, but an ethical one. I can't selectively quote on my phone, so I can't really respond individually.

So, 21 weeks is the earliest that a baby has survived? Can we agree that anything after 21 weeks is murder, then? Don't answer that, let's just pretend. In x years when the record is 20 weeks, does your arguement change? Ethically, it shouldn't. So, what is the difference between a baby at 21 weeks (2nd trimester and still legal) and one at 20 weeks? That's what I mean by bright line. Where is your line? At what point?

As for the percentage of abortions that occur before 14 weeks, or any other arbitrary point, how does that affect the argument? Answer: it doesn't. Again, what is your line after which abortion is unethical and/or should be illegal? They need not be the same.
 
2013-04-17 07:50:38 AM
This case is inevitable result of irrational religious zealots making a legal & necessary medical procedure almost impossible to obtain, and is a foreshadowing of what would happen nationwide if they ever succeed in criminalizing it.
 
2013-04-17 07:53:25 AM

Dancin_In_Anson: hardinparamedic: On the other hand, fark people who are trying to turn this into some anti-abortion diatribe, or are politicising it for their own ends.

Indeed. It's a bad idea, it's dangerous but that's the way it is.


Huffpo Host is the go-to man for insight in to all "the left's" decision making.
 
2013-04-17 07:55:01 AM
It's a sad, horrible world.
 
2013-04-17 07:56:55 AM
Almost every comment. Rationalizations all over the place. For instance you:"oh, if we banned abortion this would be the norm!!"

Of course it wouldn't. Most back alley abortionists would be more proficient than this guy, and the fetus/baby would be be treated the exact same way that they are in an abortion clinic. And the number of babies not aborted because of the ban would likely greatly outnumber the number who die in these botched abortions.

I'm not even pro-life, but it is very clear from the comments here that this case has made many of the pro-choicers, who think they have the moral high ground, uncomfortable.

Be honest with yourself.
 
2013-04-17 07:57:05 AM

ChubbyTiger: hardinparamedic: On the other hand, fark people who are trying to turn this into some anti-abortion diatribe, or are politicising it for their own ends.

Kermit Gosnell was influenced by theories of racism and eugenics. He is on record as saying he would have done what he did regardless if abortion was legal or not, and that he feels like he did nothing wrong.

This was not about abortion. He knew what he was doing was illegal, unethical, and monsterous, and did it anyway. He's a murderer.

If you want facts about the case, DO NOT listen to the media. Read the Grand Jury findings on the case.

What he did was not substantively different than any other abortionist. You can make the argument that a fetus is not a baby (or not alive or whatever), but it's a difficult one to sustain without providing a bright line that has some scientific or medical reality attached to it. And no, the 6 inches between the uterus and the atmosphere is not a reasonable line.

And don't get all huffy because I think you're a hypocrite, I'm one on plenty of subjects, too.


He was intentionally breaking the law with little concern for the patient. He sounds like an "old school" doctor, the kind my grandmother described to me from the 1930s. Two great aunts "lost" their babies at delivery because the mothers' lives were at risk. My grandmother though had a c-section in 1937. Funny that my religiously conservative great aunts didn't consider those abortions. They were pro-life to the end.
 
2013-04-17 07:57:22 AM
From Exodus...

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

So why don't we at least do like the Bible says and at least RESPECT the wishes of the woman and (if he is the picture) the guy that got her pregnant.

You know, like God said.
 
2013-04-17 07:59:27 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Almost every comment. Rationalizations all over the place. For instance you:"oh, if we banned abortion this would be the norm!!"

Of course it wouldn't.


Because you say so.

I'm not even pro-life, but it is very clear from the comments here that this case has made many of the pro-choicers, who think they have the moral high ground, uncomfortable.

Yes, illegal abortions that are dangerous/deadly for the patient make people uncomfortable. Good thing there are legal clinics, shame that religious weirdos keep trying to shut them down.
 
2013-04-17 08:02:04 AM

ChubbyTiger: As for the percentage of abortions that occur before 14 weeks, or any other arbitrary point, how does that affect the argument? Answer: it doesn't.


It only "doesn't" if you don't understand or simply don't care about the difference between fetuses at different developmental stages.  There is a fundamental difference between a fetus that hasn't even developed a brain yet versus one at 39 weeks which can think and feel everything happening to it.

It's hard to have any honest talk on the subject when some people act like a 1 day old zygote is the same as a baby.  And it makes us think they're idiots or zealots who do not want a debate, they just want us to do what they say.
 
2013-04-17 08:02:27 AM

ChubbyTiger: Don't misunderstand, I'm not making a legal argument, but an ethical one. I can't selectively quote on my phone, so I can't really respond individually.

So, 21 weeks is the earliest that a baby has survived? Can we agree that anything after 21 weeks is murder, then? Don't answer that, let's just pretend. In x years when the record is 20 weeks, does your arguement change? Ethically, it shouldn't. So, what is the difference between a baby at 21 weeks (2nd trimester and still legal) and one at 20 weeks? That's what I mean by bright line. Where is your line? At what point?

As for the percentage of abortions that occur before 14 weeks, or any other arbitrary point, how does that affect the argument? Answer: it doesn't. Again, what is your line after which abortion is unethical and/or should be illegal? They need not be the same.


IF the argument is viability then it's viability...whether that's 24 weeks (which is really a much more accepted number, but let's not quibble) or if in the future it was 12. If you could safely remove a fetus from a woman, and put it in an artificial womb...I'd have zero issue if that is what was allowed (abandonment to the state or whatever) for healthy, unwanted fetuses.

In point of fact, if one could SAFELY (let's pretend it has zero risk to the mother. Impossible, but let's pretend that existed) remove a fetus and place in an artificial womb, I would say THEN both parents have the right of choice (whether or not to raise the child or surrender rights to the other parent or the state). The right is currently only a woman's because it is her being that is physically affected. Remove that, and that need to preserve her right to her body is now a non-issue. (No pun intended)

Defects are another argument, and one which people will have very passionate arguments for/against.

But it's good to know the basis for your position and/or beliefs, and testing how you'd feel if certain situations existed is a good way to refine where you stand. And one should always rethink and revisit when there's new evidence as well. :)
 
2013-04-17 08:02:27 AM
I just want to say I had never heard of this, but I don't watch TV news.
 
2013-04-17 08:02:29 AM
festoon
"This case is inevitable result of irrational religious zealots making a legal & necessary medical procedure almost impossible to obtain, and is a foreshadowing of what would happen nationwide if they ever succeed in criminalizing it."

Your ignorance is painful. It's about living babies being killed after birth. Go back to the snopes article and re-read the extract from the grand jury report.
 
2013-04-17 08:02:41 AM

hardinparamedic: On the other hand, fark people who are trying to turn this into some anti-abortion diatribe, or are politicising it for their own ends.

Kermit Gosnell was influenced by theories of racism and eugenics. He is on record as saying he would have done what he did regardless if abortion was legal or not, and that he feels like he did nothing wrong.

This was not about abortion. He knew what he was doing was illegal, unethical, and monsterous, and did it anyway. He's a murderer.

If you want facts about the case, DO NOT listen to the media. Read the Grand Jury findings on the case.


That would be my cousin, constantly spamming her Facebook feed with anti-abortion propaganda and CONSTANTLY complaining about the "lack" of coverage for this trial. She even asked me for the Philly stations so that she could find live coverage- I live in Pittsburgh, and as I have absolutely no interest in watching or hearing that crap, I refused to look it up for her. There are many unlicensed and unqualified "doctors" out there committing atrocities and killing people everyday- but I don't see people protesting a fake plastic surgeon's trial. It's utterly hypocritical, but then again, one fetus is worth at least 100 poor immigrant women who just wanted breast implants. At least to my cousin. She also homeschools her child because of the government conspiracy to indoctrinate children into being evil. Because her 4 year old would have NEVER hit her grandmother in the face had she not learned to at preschool- because they don't teach about God.

Yeah, she's a piece of work and I feel sorry for her kids.
 
2013-04-17 08:02:46 AM
This isn't abortion season. It's gun season.
 
2013-04-17 08:02:56 AM

hardinparamedic: On the other hand, fark people who are trying to turn this into some anti-abortion diatribe, or are politicising it for their own ends.

Kermit Gosnell was influenced by theories of racism and eugenics. He is on record as saying he would have done what he did regardless if abortion was legal or not, and that he feels like he did nothing wrong.

This was not about abortion. He knew what he was doing was illegal, unethical, and monsterous, and did it anyway. He's a murderer.


All abortions are monstrous.  All abortionists are murderers.
 
2013-04-17 08:05:15 AM

DrPainMD: hardinparamedic: On the other hand, fark people who are trying to turn this into some anti-abortion diatribe, or are politicising it for their own ends.

Kermit Gosnell was influenced by theories of racism and eugenics. He is on record as saying he would have done what he did regardless if abortion was legal or not, and that he feels like he did nothing wrong.

This was not about abortion. He knew what he was doing was illegal, unethical, and monsterous, and did it anyway. He's a murderer.

All abortions are monstrous.  All abortionists are murderers.


Not in this country. You lost, get over it.
 
2013-04-17 08:05:17 AM

nocturnal001: Nobody is stupid enough to believe that an 8 or 9 month baby is the same as a 2 month fetus.


They both have heartbeats and brain waves. What more do you need to say that they're the same?
 
2013-04-17 08:06:01 AM

HotWingConspiracy: You have to be purposely avoiding it at this point to miss it.

Media isn't your personal army, christians.


Right.  Because the media already belongs to Obama.  Hands off!
 
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