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(Orlando Sentinel)   Teachers file federal lawsuit against state over latest move to tie their performance evaluations to test scores of students not in their classes, outside grade levels taught, who go to other schools. Sounds like my last job evaluation   (orlandosentinel.com) divider line 93
    More: Florida, U.S. Constitution, educational stage, Florida Department of Education, U.S., Leon County, FCAT, Florida Legislature, lawsuit claims  
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5470 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2013 at 6:32 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-16 03:24:15 PM
FTFA: "Despite the concerns about the new system, 97 percent of Florida's teachers earned good evaluations the first year the new plan was in place.

That's because for the first two years, each district could set its own standards for how to use "value added" test-score data. Most did so in ways meant to be generous to their teachers as the new system was introduced. Some, like Alachua, even retroactively changed how they had calculated the evaluations, the lawsuit noted."


Awesome. So they created a horrifically flawed system to evaluate teachers then allowed the individual districts to set their own standard. Poor scores reflect badly on the district, so they all made the evaluation under the flawed system tea-baggishly simple so they all score high, except for the people they don't like since the evaluations are arbitrary anyways.

This is, hands down, the most pathetic excuse for administration you can have. There should be a federal investigation of Florida IMO.
 
2013-04-16 06:04:21 PM
You think that's bad....here in DC  the school custodian's raises are tied to student test scores.

YOU BETTER GET THEM TEST SCORES UP KIDS OR I'LL RAPE YOU WITH MY MOP HANDLE!!!
 
2013-04-16 06:35:36 PM
FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.
 
2013-04-16 06:39:10 PM
"On a scale of pi to -pi3, how do you score yourself on transformational interactions with non-selected representatives of targeted work groups?"
 
2013-04-16 06:42:06 PM
It's kind of like being forced to pay for the health care of people who eat like crap, get no exercise and smoke.
 
2013-04-16 06:43:10 PM

DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: "On a scale of pi to -pi3, how do you score yourself on transformational interactions with non-selected representatives of targeted work groups?"


Pancake.
 
2013-04-16 06:43:12 PM

Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.


Meaning what we've presently got are the bottom-of-the-barrel scrapings. That's pretty insulting, don't you think?
 
2013-04-16 06:44:16 PM
They should refuse to teach until they're given smarter kids.
 
2013-04-16 06:44:32 PM

Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.


That's stupid. If we did that we wouldn't have enough money left over to overpay on various boondoggle contracts to our friends family and campaign donors.
 
2013-04-16 06:44:43 PM

PapaChester: FTFA: "Despite the concerns about the new system, 97 percent of Florida's teachers earned good evaluations the first year the new plan was in place.

That's because for the first two years, each district could set its own standards for how to use "value added" test-score data. Most did so in ways meant to be generous to their teachers as the new system was introduced. Some, like Alachua, even retroactively changed how they had calculated the evaluations, the lawsuit noted."


Awesome. So they created a horrifically flawed system to evaluate teachers then allowed the individual districts to set their own standard. Poor scores reflect badly on the district, so they all made the evaluation under the flawed system tea-baggishly simple so they all score high, except for the people they don't like since the evaluations are arbitrary anyways.

This is, hands down, the most pathetic excuse for administration you can have. There should be a federal investigation of Florida IMO.


I hate to tell you this - but this is exactly how the 'race to the top' is working.

The federal government needs to get the hell out of education.  I actually agree with Ron Paul on this - eliminate the U.S. department of education.
 
2013-04-16 06:45:16 PM
I think it's a great idea. Teachers have gotten lazy. They quit caring about kids after their 2nd year of teaching. I have to work my a** off every day and my benefits aren't nearly as good as theirs.

/Screw them
 
2013-04-16 06:45:26 PM

Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.


I believe our system is farked up beyond the teacher situation.  Many of them are just fine. It's the kids and their farked up parents who expect little Johnny to be raised by the school system that are part of the problem.  It also has to do with old school teaching standards.  Basically, the whole thing needs to be revamped including our culture, so I do not see a real solution happening in the near future.
 
2013-04-16 06:46:13 PM
Ohio's bad, Indiana's worse, Kentucky has the Creationist Museum, Mississippi's numbers speak for itself, and Florida gets its own tag. Glad I never visited past Fort Walton Beach. Yikes.
 
2013-04-16 06:46:14 PM

Sticky Hands: Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.

That's stupid. If we did that we wouldn't have enough money left over to overpay on various boondoggle contracts to our friends family and campaign donors.


Many states already require Master's Degrees and pay less than what someone with an Associate's degree earns.  The system is broken.
 
2013-04-16 06:47:31 PM

diaphoresis: I think it's a great idea. Teachers have gotten lazy. They quit caring about kids after their 2nd year of teaching. I have to work my a** off every day and my benefits aren't nearly as good as theirs.

/Screw them


What do you do for a living?
 
2013-04-16 06:48:09 PM
As the son of a third-grade teacher in the great state of Louisiana, I fully endorse this federal lawsuit.

Normally, the Florida tag is well-earned by the subject of the attached story, but in this case it's the object of the story earning the tag--which made me scratch my head a bit until I realized that, holy shiat, Florida's education system is worse than my state's. I thought it was questionable when Louisiana teachers' evaluations were tied not to the improvement of a student, but how that student compared to arbitrary guidelines set by some idiot with a background in...accountancy. Or law. Or lobbying. But to tie evaluations to students in other classes, in other grades, and in other schools entirely is...idiotic.

Are the politicians eating the lead paint in the classrooms or something?
 
2013-04-16 06:48:50 PM

DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: "On a scale of pi to -pi3, how do you score yourself on transformational interactions with non-selected representatives of targeted work groups?"


So much win!
 
2013-04-16 06:49:45 PM
This just in: every system of evaluation is basically just a way for bosses to terminate those people they don't like (or, rather, who they perceive as being bad for their company, which is usually equivalent but not always).
 
2013-04-16 06:50:14 PM
A value added evaluation will work if there is a standardized test at every grade level or subject. It's worth doing for our elementary teachers teachers and their helpers. It is not really worth doing otherwise. Maybe a band teacher or theater teacher could get bonuses for each public performance offered. Certainly if there is a Big English Test in 10th grade, the 10th grade English teachers could be evaluated on that. But going beyond that is really not what I meant when I said I favored merit pay. And in each case the end of year results should be compared to beginning of year results for a similar test. since that means going each test twice, it's not worth the classroom time in most cases. /Floridian
 
2013-04-16 06:50:41 PM
Why do people keep rewarding a corrupt system by becoming teachers?
 
2013-04-16 06:51:18 PM

PapaChester: FTFA: "Despite the concerns about the new system, 97 percent of Florida's teachers earned good evaluations the first year the new plan was in place.

That's because for the first two years, each district could set its own standards for how to use "value added" test-score data. Most did so in ways meant to be generous to their teachers as the new system was introduced. Some, like Alachua, even retroactively changed how they had calculated the evaluations, the lawsuit noted."


Awesome. So they created a horrifically flawed system to evaluate teachers then allowed the individual districts to set their own standard. Poor scores reflect badly on the district, so they all made the evaluation under the flawed system tea-baggishly simple so they all score high, except for the people they don't like since the evaluations are arbitrary anyways.

This is, hands down, the most pathetic excuse for administration you can have. There should be a federal investigation of Florida IMO.


I'd rather Bugs Bunny just get that giant saw out and cut it off.
 
2013-04-16 06:51:49 PM

DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: "On a scale of pi to -pi3, how do you score yourself on transformational interactions with non-selected representatives of targeted work groups?"


Eleventy four
 
2013-04-16 06:52:05 PM
I can only speak from my experience as a student, and from secondhand info from a good friend of mine who taught English for the last 7 years. In Cali.

The problem doesn't lie *only* in the teachers (though they have their big part to play) but the parents are a big factor too.

How about a tax credit for kids who do well in school.

Though that would lead to "I'LL BEAT YOU IF YOU DON'T DO BETTER IN SCHOOL GOD DAMMIT!".

Not sure if that's a pro a con.
 
2013-04-16 06:52:54 PM

Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.



Why is a teaching career the number one choice of Finland's best and brightest students?

Pay is not the answer.  Teacher pay in Finland is reasonably competitive but no more attractive than in many other European countries. In fact, the range of salaries among professionals in Finland is very small, compared to most other advanced industrial countries, which means that differences in compensation in Finland generally have less of an influence on career choice than in other countries.


 From here.

/I'm going home in 8 minutes, so I don't have time to look for another source.
 
2013-04-16 06:53:04 PM

kukukupo: Sticky Hands: Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.

That's stupid. If we did that we wouldn't have enough money left over to overpay on various boondoggle contracts to our friends family and campaign donors.

Many states already require Master's Degrees and pay less than what someone with an Associate's degree earns.  The system is broken.


Finns treat teachers like doctors in that it's really tough to become one, but once you become one you have high prestige. It doesn't come with doctor level pay though.

www.cato.org
 
Ehh
2013-04-16 06:53:31 PM

Sticky Hands: Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.

That's stupid. If we did that we wouldn't have enough money left over to overpay on various boondoggle contracts to our friends family and campaign donors.


Now that's some cagebusting, out-of-the-box thinking! Let's face it, we should tie the evaluation of all teachers represented by a union to Rush Limbaugh's ratings.
 
2013-04-16 06:55:34 PM

jigger: kukukupo: Sticky Hands: Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.

That's stupid. If we did that we wouldn't have enough money left over to overpay on various boondoggle contracts to our friends family and campaign donors.

Many states already require Master's Degrees and pay less than what someone with an Associate's degree earns.  The system is broken.

Finns treat teachers like doctors in that it's really tough to become one, but once you become one you have high prestige. It doesn't come with doctor level pay though.

[www.cato.org image 850x538]


If I could reach you, I'd make out with you.
 
2013-04-16 06:55:49 PM
If this law is allowed to stand, it will drive away all the hot female teachers who sleep with their underage students.
 
2013-04-16 06:56:47 PM

antidumbass: Ohio's bad, Indiana's worse, Kentucky has the Creationist Museum, Mississippi's numbers speak for itself, and Florida gets its own tag. Glad I never visited past Fort Walton Beach. Yikes.


And what, Louisiana is a shining beacon of educational self-awareness, progress, and students being educated by the best teachers that can be found on Earth?

Here's a hint: If you ever have even the slightest notion to raise a family in Louisiana--don't. Sure, you might be great parents, but your kids will be subjected to one of the shiattiest educations in the United States. However, there is as always a caveat: I am a product of the public school system, and not only did I go to a university and earn two degrees, but I even went to graduate school.

/Unemployed
 
2013-04-16 06:58:03 PM

skinink: If this law is allowed to stand, it will drive away all the hot female teachers who sleep with their underage students.


Holy shiat. That'd cut down on Fark Greenlit threads by 1/3.

WE CAN'T LET THIS STAND!
 
2013-04-16 06:59:26 PM

What_do_you_want_now: DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: "On a scale of pi to -pi3, how do you score yourself on transformational interactions with non-selected representatives of targeted work groups?"

Pancake.


F--, thats right a double minus.

The correct answer for the Florida test is "Key Lime".

//pancakes as pie.  Now I've heard everything.
 
2013-04-16 07:00:12 PM

jigger: kukukupo: Sticky Hands: Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.

That's stupid. If we did that we wouldn't have enough money left over to overpay on various boondoggle contracts to our friends family and campaign donors.

Many states already require Master's Degrees and pay less than what someone with an Associate's degree earns.  The system is broken.

Finns treat teachers like doctors in that it's really tough to become one, but once you become one you have high prestige. It doesn't come with doctor level pay though.

[www.cato.org image 850x538]


BECAUSE QUALITY OF SCHOOL SYSTEM AND MEDIAN INCOME ARE SO RELATED!

seriously did they even read that thing before they puked on it? the only thing related to money was paying teachers like doctors, and didn't even compare finlands doctors to finland's teachers, or anything.

i want my 25 seconds back!
 
2013-04-16 07:00:18 PM
Seminole County teachers haven't gotten a raise in 6 years.  Well, we're in a recession, so that's not a surprise.  What is surprising is that they also don't get pay increases every year for seniority or experience.  This wouldn't be so bad, except they're paid a little under $35,000 a year.

Now you get 4 weeks off in the summer, plus 2 in winter, plus another in spring, so that's 45 weeks worked.   Assuming 40 hours a week (which they all work more than), that's 1800 hours a year, or about $19/hr with some benefits (most districts have gone away from pensions, and adopted 401K or 403b retirement accounts that they contribute a little to, but not that much).

$19/hr isn't so bad in a recession.  But you're a teacher.  You deal with kids every day, hundred of unmotivated, self-righteous, PITA kids.  Even worse, you get to deal with their parents too, who want to know why you're flunking their little snowflake, who sits on his iPhone all day in class.  And worst of all, you're told how to do your job by moron legislatures who have NEVER had to do anything like your job in their entire lives, and your pay (already pretty flimsy) isn't guaranteed anymore either because of these wonderful standardized tests designed to "motivate" you to work harder (I guess they never heard of overtime pay).  So you make about what skilled labor makes on a construction site, except you have no opportunity of overtime, and you have to deal with crazy kids, and crazier parents every day.  And you went to college for this, in fact, you're probably still paying off loans.


No one becomes a teacher for the salary.  I think administration need to STFU and let teachers have control over their classroom again.  Basing their already inadequate pay on ridiculous standardized tests in order to motivate them is ridiculous.  There are FAR better ways to gauge a teacher's performance, and there are FAR better ways to motivate people to work harder at their job.
 
2013-04-16 07:00:29 PM

netweavr: Why do people keep rewarding a corrupt system by becoming teachers?


Why does the federal government keep rewarding teachers with a corrupted system?
 
2013-04-16 07:03:17 PM

Nofun: Seminole County teachers haven't gotten a raise in 6 years.  Well, we're in a recession, so that's not a surprise.  What is surprising is that they also don't get pay increases every year for seniority or experience.  This wouldn't be so bad, except they're paid a little under $35,000 a year.

Now you get 4 weeks off in the summer, plus 2 in winter, plus another in spring, so that's 45 weeks worked.   Assuming 40 hours a week (which they all work more than), that's 1800 hours a year, or about $19/hr with some benefits (most districts have gone away from pensions, and adopted 401K or 403b retirement accounts that they contribute a little to, but not that much).

$19/hr isn't so bad in a recession.  But you're a teacher.  You deal with kids every day, hundred of unmotivated, self-righteous, PITA kids.  Even worse, you get to deal with their parents too, who want to know why you're flunking their little snowflake, who sits on his iPhone all day in class.  And worst of all, you're told how to do your job by moron legislatures who have NEVER had to do anything like your job in their entire lives, and your pay (already pretty flimsy) isn't guaranteed anymore either because of these wonderful standardized tests designed to "motivate" you to work harder (I guess they never heard of overtime pay).  So you make about what skilled labor makes on a construction site, except you have no opportunity of overtime, and you have to deal with crazy kids, and crazier parents every day.  And you went to college for this, in fact, you're probably still paying off loans.


No one becomes a teacher for the salary.  I think administration need to STFU and let teachers have control over their classroom again.  Basing their already inadequate pay on ridiculous standardized tests in order to motivate them is ridiculous.  There are FAR better ways to gauge a teacher's performance, and there are FAR better ways to motivate people to work harder at their job.


I'm for taking control in the classroom and such.

But you get paid better than the majority of folks in this recession, myself included.

Though to be fair the general attitude toward teachers I can sum up in a quote from Archer:

"If I wanted to sit around going no where all day I'd become a teacher".

There is a difference between a teacher and someone who has children memorize textbook bolded text. hence, most people see teachers as babysitters.

Not slamming what you do or how you do it. Just saying the main view is you get paid better than non-trade professionals, and the 'babysitter' thing is a huge factor.
 
2013-04-16 07:05:36 PM

maram500: And what, Louisiana is a shining beacon of educational self-awareness, progress, and students being educated by the best teachers that can be found on Earth?


Hey now, Jindal is going to make it all better.  He has this person that spent one year or so in the class room as Teach for America and she knows how to fix everything.  Basically the cunning plan are charter schools!  Charter schools everywhere!  The best part about private charter schools is that your teacher's don't have to have any education at all!  Think of the costs savings that you can pocket, er put back into the school, as an organization that can pay teachers less.  Its going to be AWE-SOME!
 
2013-04-16 07:08:29 PM

LookForTheArrow: BECAUSE QUALITY OF SCHOOL SYSTEM AND MEDIAN INCOME ARE SO RELATED!

Hmm. I was repeatedly told that increasing the quality of our public school system can only be achieved by increasing the amount of money dumped into it annually.

seriously did they even read that thing before they puked on it? the only thing related to money was paying teachers like doctors, and didn't even compare finlands doctors to finland's teachers, or anything.

i want my 25 seconds back!



True, but this picture was part of an article that was talking about "there's this meme going around saying that in Finland they pay teachers the same as doctors and it's wrong so wrong." Or something.

But the other stuff is true. Kids don't start school until they're 7. They never have homework. They have long recesses. All that stuff.

Capo Del Bandito: If I could reach you, I'd make out with you.


Thanks   ?
 
2013-04-16 07:08:34 PM

farkin_Gary: netweavr: Why do people keep rewarding a corrupt system by becoming teachers?

Why does the federal government keep rewarding teachers with a corrupted system?


The federal government never changes until forced to.
 
2013-04-16 07:08:59 PM
Ohio is moving to the same thing - the standard for NOT counting a student against your evaluation for absences is.... wait for it: 60+ days absent.
A student can actually miss one out of every 3 days of school and they STILL count on how you are evaluated.  BRILLIANT!
 
2013-04-16 07:11:23 PM
To keep reading sign up now for digital access. Click on one of the options below to get started and continue your access to OrlandoSentinel.com.

No.
 
2013-04-16 07:11:26 PM

jigger: Thanks ?


Just for a calming grace of intelligence vs the relying on statistics not researched, simply relied on by folks to prove their one sided point.
 
2013-04-16 07:12:56 PM
Short answer: Claims under either the due process or equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment will be subject to rational basis review and upheld.

Slightly longer answer:  Every student who takes Con Law learns that the vast majority of bad, poorly thought out, poorly implemented, and outright stupid laws enacted by state and local governments are still constitutional.  Unless you are being discriminated against on the basis of a protected or quasi-protected class, or unless you are being denied a fundamental right, you're case is going to be subject to rational basis review.  Under that standard the burden is on the plaintiff to show that the law in unrelated to any vaguely plausible legitimate purpose.  And for state and local laws 'legitimate' pretty much just means 'duly enacted'.
 
2013-04-16 07:15:28 PM

Phinn: It's kind of like being forced to pay for the health care of people who eat like crap, get no exercise and smoke.


no, no it's not
 
2013-04-16 07:16:04 PM

netweavr: farkin_Gary: netweavr: Why do people keep rewarding a corrupt system by becoming teachers?

Why does the federal government keep rewarding teachers with a corrupted system?

The federal government never changes until forced to.


That doesn't make sense. You can just define any time the federal government changes as 'the preceding situation x forced them to'.

Eg the massive reorganisation of the government post 9/11.... forced? oh yeah sure forced.
 
2013-04-16 07:17:24 PM
*To be clear, I should have indicated that the challenged state regulations will be upheld. The plaintiffs will lose.
 
2013-04-16 07:17:57 PM

PapaChester: FTFA: "Despite the concerns about the new system, 97 percent of Florida's teachers earned good evaluations the first year the new plan was in place.

That's because for the first two years, each district could set its own standards for how to use "value added" test-score data. Most did so in ways meant to be generous to their teachers as the new system was introduced. Some, like Alachua, even retroactively changed how they had calculated the evaluations, the lawsuit noted."


Awesome. So they created a horrifically flawed system to evaluate teachers then allowed the individual districts to set their own standard. Poor scores reflect badly on the district, so they all made the evaluation under the flawed system tea-baggishly simple so they all score high, except for the people they don't like since the evaluations are arbitrary anyways.

This is, hands down, the most pathetic excuse for administration you can have. There should be a federal investigation of Florida IMO.


Isn't there already a federal investigation of Florida?  Actually, aren't there several currently going on?

What a fantastic state.
 
2013-04-16 07:18:05 PM

jigger: kukukupo: Sticky Hands: Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.

That's stupid. If we did that we wouldn't have enough money left over to overpay on various boondoggle contracts to our friends family and campaign donors.

Many states already require Master's Degrees and pay less than what someone with an Associate's degree earns.  The system is broken.

Finns treat teachers like doctors in that it's really tough to become one, but once you become one you have high prestige. It doesn't come with doctor level pay though.
[www.cato.org image 850x538]



As it already has been pointed out, that article compared different pay scales inappropriately.
Teachers in Finland are paid more in comparison to their country's average pay than those in the US.

www.ncee.org

And they are paid well compared to other Finns with similar degree levels.

High school teachers with 15 years of experience make 102 percent of what their fellow university graduates do. In the United States, by contrast, they earn just 65 percent.
 
2013-04-16 07:18:41 PM

jjorsett: Cubicle Jockey: FTFA: which aims to boost student learning by improving teacher quality

Better suggestion:
Do what Finland did. Raise qualification requirements, and drastically increase pay. Attract real professionals to the field.

Meaning what we've presently got are the bottom-of-the-barrel scrapings. That's pretty insulting, don't you think?


It's not just insulting. There are practical issues, too. If we start attracting the best and the brightest to education, what are we going to do with the people who are already there? That's why I can't support paying teachers more.
 
2013-04-16 07:20:09 PM
I guess we now know why teachers' collective bargaining rights have been assaulted. We need to tell our representatives that this education strategy has gotten out of hand.
 
2013-04-16 07:23:14 PM
rumpelstiltskin:
It's not just insulting. There are practical issues, too. If we start attracting the best and the brightest to education, what are we going to do with the people who are already there? That's why I can't support paying teachers more.

I hear Taco Bell is hiring.
 
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