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(Huffington Post)   Just as the Founders had hoped, many online firearms dealers prefer to accept payment in anonymous, untraceable bitcoins   (huffingtonpost.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, firearms dealer, Carnegie Mellon  
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2161 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Apr 2013 at 3:34 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-04-15 03:44:43 PM  
4 votes:
doesn't matter how you pay, the firearm you purchase HAS to go through an FFL like anything else
2013-04-15 02:36:30 PM  
4 votes:
Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online.  Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is.  I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.
2013-04-15 06:23:38 PM  
2 votes:
There is no major, mainstream, online gun dealer who takes bitcoins.

None.  Zero.
2013-04-15 03:48:11 PM  
2 votes:
And people are surprised? Been to a gun show lately? Christ, it's turned into a sideshow where toothless crazies trade guns for meth and meth lab gear. At least in these parts. Very different from about 8 years ago. Sure, there was the occasional crazy, now it's nothing but crazy.
2013-04-15 02:51:21 PM  
2 votes:
All it takes for those "wonderful" bitcoins to become useless is the US government declaring that they're money laundering instruments and going after MtGox and the other exchanges.
2013-04-16 03:29:56 AM  
1 vote:

Firethorn: Which is why you SPECIFY things.  If I'm buying drugs, it should say on the bottle what's in there.


Government can't force you to say something on the bottle. You're a free man. You don't deserve to be held at gun point just because some bureaucrat says you didn't put the right thing on your label.
2013-04-16 12:20:32 AM  
1 vote:

Lawyers With Nukes: Sigh...you try libertarian ideas all the time in your daily life, you're just too stupid to realize it.


If you ever refused to serve black people in your restaurant, you're a libertarian..

If you've ever dumped toxic waste into the rivers, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever intentionally lobbied for tax subsidies for oil companies, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever sold watered down penicillin to a children' hospital, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever coerced an employee into having sex with you at the threat of termination, you're a libertarian.

If you've ever thought that slavery should be up to the states to decide, you're a libertarian.

So you see, you've been a wacko libertarian all along, and you didn't even know it.
2013-04-15 09:00:04 PM  
1 vote:
Ah yes bitcoins,the currency that is only good for buying guns,drugs,child porn,laundering money and one of the biggest exchanges is a Magic The Gathering Online site. Lol I found it hilarious when MtGox shutdown when the bitcoin price dropped like a stone.
2013-04-15 07:44:37 PM  
1 vote:
img199.imageshack.us
2013-04-15 06:49:03 PM  
1 vote:

whidbey: Yeah absolutely no reason to regulate firearms because 2nd Amendment.

That's it. No discussion. You can all go about your business.


whidbey, whidbey, whidbey... you don't seem to understand how a firearm purchase works, but then again, you don't seem to understand any of the other things you talk about either
2013-04-15 06:36:09 PM  
1 vote:

actualhuman: BraveNewCheneyWorld: fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.

By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.

Or you're getting illegally on the dark net -- in precisely the manner TFA describes.

How many idjits are going to come in here and blast off about how it's also possible to do it legally as if that's relevant to the discussion?


Because a website says you can buy guns online without an FFL, doesn't mean it's true.  I'd love to see proof if you have some.  Otherwise, I'm going with the most likely scenarios.

1) It's ATF, and you'll be arrested when you retrieve your package.
2) It's an actual business, but ATF has likely ordered guns themselves, and traced their delivery back to the source, and are monitoring all trades.

Either way, you're probably going to prison soon, and for a very long time.
2013-04-15 06:24:17 PM  
1 vote:
No reputable dealer of just about ANYTHING accepts bitcoins. These "deep web" transactions he's talking about are the web equivalent of meeting a guy in a hotel room and buying a gun without a serial number for cash.
2013-04-15 06:21:32 PM  
1 vote:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.

By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.


You are confusing two very different things. Real and legal online sellers will sell legitimate weapons online, ship them to a local FFL shop, and you pick up your legal weapon there. Background checks and everything.

The Armory, and other fronts like them, are acting like eBay/Craiglist for items which are illegal in parts/all of the nation and shipping them in a plain brown box directly to the customer's door (or PO box). So if you wanted a silencer, class 3 weapons, or explosives - they would ship it right to your door - which is 100% illegal. Prices were high too. So if you stole a case of M16s from the US Army - you could liquidate them for a lot of money (in Bitcoins) through The Armory.
2013-04-15 05:24:30 PM  
1 vote:

dittybopper: A better alternative is to buy a pre-1968 gun that doesn't have a serial number, or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one.  Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Given that guns were valuable, they were typically serialized even before 1968, some muskets had serial numbers even in the 1700s.

The ones that weren't were typically cheap ones that I'd be hesitant to fire today.

Gosling: Or the ATF/FBI/whoever could simply subpoena them and demand the transaction info so they can go get the gun with the serial number filed off that is illegal to own because the serial number's been filed off. They know it's out there; after all, Executive Outcomes said so themselves.


Heck, how do we know that "Executive Outcomes" isn't simply a FBI sting site?

For those that don't know, shipping firearms to somebody not an FFL is normally highly illegal.  The exemptions are an owner shipping to himself and a firearm repair company returning a firearm to the owner.  The *LEGAL* way to buy a gun online is to buy it, have it shipped to a local FFL, where for a fee he'll do the paperwork and give it to you.  That's without getting into the various felonies filing serial numbers off will get you.

As such, "Executive Outcomes" has to operate on the darknet because otherwise the BATFE would be knocking on their door right now with a search warrant.

Sadly, I see it being used as a call for more restrictions on legal gun sellers, because of the illegal sites.
2013-04-15 05:20:46 PM  
1 vote:
For anyone who doesn't know, if you buy a gun on the internet, you have to have a local FFL receive that gun for you, and that FFL has to do all the paperwork and background checks that is normally done. Yes there are exceptions, but that's how it's done in the vast majority of cases.

When a crime is committed with a firearm, that firearm is almost always a handgun. The number one way criminals buy handguns is by buying stolen guns from the black market. The second most popular way is also through the black market from a straw buying operation.

If your going to discuss restricting the things, you should at least know the facts.
2013-04-15 05:06:03 PM  
1 vote:
If I remember right the last time The Armory came up everyone assumed it was basically a way to make your money disappear and get nothing in return, I.e. a scam.
2013-04-15 04:59:41 PM  
1 vote:

rabidarmadillo24: Bloody William: rabidarmadillo24: If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."

What does tasty sesame candy have to do with gun running?

Damn you. I had to go back and look it up to make sure I didn't screw up.
What candy are you referring to?


I think he's referring to halva.  There's a corner grocery a few miles from my office that sells blocks of halva that kind of look like fudge, except they're made with sesame.  It also goes stale very quickly, so if you find a supplier, you should keep it refrigerated or eat it the same day.

Now, what exactly is hawala?
2013-04-15 04:34:54 PM  
1 vote:

dittybopper: phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated.   It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.


Which is just retarded as while there is a list (or several, I'm unclear on this point) of citizens disallowed from owning firearms, no list (at least at the Federal level) exists of registered gun owners. This is as "out there" and unrealistic as the drone debate.
2013-04-15 04:26:56 PM  
1 vote:

dittybopper: It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.


Which (depending on the specific means of "expression" they use) is a federal crime. So yes, they are criminals. Maybe not murderers, pimps or misusers of government funds, but criminals who deserve jail time nonetheless.

And the government doesn't care what guns you OWN, they care what weapons you TRANSFER. They want to make sure that that "hop" is kosher - they don't give a fart in a windstorm that you own 55 Rugers, they care that the 56th was sold to you in accordance with Federal law. You don't need to register what you have, only what you're preparing to sell. It may seem like a small difference (even a semantic one), but there's a significant legal difference.
2013-04-15 04:16:33 PM  
1 vote:

hackalope: Why does everyone say that Bitcoin is untraceable? Central to the architecture is that fact that every transaction ever done using bitcoin is logged forever - that's THE WHOLE FREAKING POINT OF BlockChain! What you don't have is a log of the origin point of the coins, but once you start to identify nodes and coins you have attribution. If a Government really wanted to trace Bitcoins from an anti-laundering side, they'd just set up a BlockChain root (whatever the technical name is) and start identifying coins and accounts. You can't control the flow, but you can monitor it. This is also the reason that Bitcoins stolen in large scale heists haven't been used to actually buy anything.

Ref:  http://www.businessinsider.com/dan-kaminsky-highlights-flaws-bitcoin- 2 013-4


Or the ATF/FBI/whoever could simply subpoena them and demand the transaction info so they can go get the gun with the serial number filed off that is illegal to own because the serial number's been filed off. They know it's out there; after all, Executive Outcomes said so themselves.
wee
2013-04-15 04:13:27 PM  
1 vote:
FTFA: <i>Several websites that sell firearms only accept payment in bitcoins, but they are not easy to find. </i>

I wasn't aware that the word "many" could paraphrase the above statement, but now I know.

I also know that subby has no clue as to how purchasing a firearm actually works.

But let's not let these pesky trivialities spoil a good troll...
2013-04-15 04:07:48 PM  
1 vote:

Lawyers With Nukes: Cash is also untraceable. Better do away with that before the terrorists/drug dealers/pedophiles/boogeymen catch on to that, too.

EVERYTHING needs to be trackable, traceable, entered into multiple goverment databases and pored over with a fine-toothed comb. You know, for our safety.


www.bike198.com

/i know you're being sarcastic
//just wanted to use this picture
///Cash was not untraceable, just hard to find when drunk
2013-04-15 03:54:32 PM  
1 vote:
If these gun dealers are taking bitcoins the invisible hand of the market will probably take care of them when that racket comes crashing down. If you want a real untraceable transaction give a hawala a try, although I suspect that the type of people doing these sales probably would get uncomfortable dealing with a "Sharia Bank."
2013-04-15 03:53:53 PM  
1 vote:

Farce-Side: Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online.   Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is. I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.


These "dealers" are starting from "Obama bad, gubmint bad", and setting up their businesses accordingly. They're not trying to be legitimate or to follow the laws.

All it means is that the USG will either make BitCoins illegal (competing currency or "encourages criminal activity" or "terrorism" or something else with the barest figleaf of legality) or something. The problem in this case isn't the sale of guns, it's the legality of the salesmens' businesses.
2013-04-15 03:52:05 PM  
1 vote:
Cash is also untraceable. Better do away with that before the terrorists/drug dealers/pedophiles/boogeymen catch on to that, too.

EVERYTHING needs to be trackable, traceable, entered into multiple goverment databases and pored over with a fine-toothed comb. You know, for our safety.
2013-04-15 03:46:05 PM  
1 vote:
I encourage the gun industry to make the safe, stable Bitcoin the currency of choice for their transactions.
2013-04-15 03:45:22 PM  
1 vote:
People are doing something illegal now therfor the pressing legislation will have a loophole if we do not make it illegal to transfer firearms this way?
2013-04-15 03:37:52 PM  
1 vote:

dittybopper: SlothB77: these dealers are also saying that they file the serial numbers off of the guns.  i am thinking they are less than legitimate.

Especially since, if you want to disguise the source of the gun, you don't file or grind it off.  The number can still be raised.  You have the stipple the metal with a punch in order to prevent that.

Of course, defacing the serial number of a firearm is a federal crime, so if you get caught with a gun that has had the serial number actually removed, you're in legal trouble anyway.

A better alternative is to buy a pre-1968 gun that doesn't have a serial number, or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one.  Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


But surely NO ONE was EVER killed by a gun made before 1968--

Oh. Wait.
2013-04-15 03:36:36 PM  
1 vote:
Several websites that sell firearms only accept payment in bitcoins, but they are not easy to find. Most reside on what is called the "Deep Web," or sites that can only be accessed via Tor, a special browser that shields the identities of users.

Uh...if you can find it with an easy Google search, it ain't exactly deep. Also, Tor is down right now, or at least no one in my area can access it.
2013-04-15 03:32:44 PM  
1 vote:

SlothB77: these dealers are also saying that they file the serial numbers off of the guns.  i am thinking they are less than legitimate.


Especially since, if you want to disguise the source of the gun, you don't file or grind it off.  The number can still be raised.  You have the stipple the metal with a punch in order to prevent that.

Of course, defacing the serial number of a firearm is a federal crime, so if you get caught with a gun that has had the serial number actually removed, you're in legal trouble anyway.

A better alternative is to buy a pre-1968 gun that doesn't have a serial number, or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one.  Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.
2013-04-15 02:58:57 PM  
1 vote:
images2.wikia.nocookie.net
2013-04-15 02:42:48 PM  
1 vote:
Back then, they had anonymous, untraceable real coins.  So what is the difference?
2013-04-15 02:28:40 PM  
1 vote:
Wouldn't Zimbabwean currency be safer?
2013-04-15 02:20:14 PM  
1 vote:
i... i'm not sure how i feel about this. on the one hand, who cares? it doesn't seem a whole lot different than using a gift card or any other virtual currency. on the other, while i'm not for banning guns, i think that they should be traceable.
 
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