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(Huffington Post)   Just as the Founders had hoped, many online firearms dealers prefer to accept payment in anonymous, untraceable bitcoins   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 125
    More: Interesting, firearms dealer, Carnegie Mellon  
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2153 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Apr 2013 at 3:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-04-15 05:58:26 PM
I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet. Hell, most states don't even allow you to buy alcohol online.


pdee: As always a headline from a fark lib is a bold face lie.

But keep trying.


Please tell us in detail how the headline misrepresents TFA.
 
2013-04-15 06:01:29 PM
Oh yeah.. there's no way ATF could set up a site like this to find out who needs a service like this.  It still has to be delivered, and delivery locations can be monitored.  Have fun in prison if you use these "services".
 
2013-04-15 06:11:02 PM

fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.


By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.
 
2013-04-15 06:15:57 PM

Farce-Side: Umm...I hate to call bs on this, but most firearms dealers prefer cash or money order when selling online.  Most legitimate firearms dealers, that is.  I've never even seen any businesses that accept bitcoins. Like ever.


Plus, nothing bought on the internet is ever really anonymous, especially firearms. Firearms have to be (legally) sent to a licensed dealer then transferred to the buyer. There will be a paper trail somewhere.
 
2013-04-15 06:16:40 PM

jigger: manimal2878: If I remember right the last time The Armory came up everyone assumed it was basically a way to make your money disappear and get nothing in return, I.e. a scam.

Something like that (and silk road) have to operate purely on reputation of each seller. You might get scammed by someone with no reputation, but you would give them a bad review telling everyone they are a scammer. So, scamming someone in this way would work exactly once.


I kind of assumed that The Armory and Silk Road were fronts created by the FBI, ATF, and DEA. They track both the dealers and sellers without making any busts. Just building up the database to see where it goes. Then when they map out the industry enough...once all parties interested get comfortable... they grab them all at the same time.
 
2013-04-15 06:19:14 PM
Yeah absolutely no reason to regulate firearms because 2nd Amendment.

That's it. No discussion. You can all go about your business.
 
2013-04-15 06:21:32 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.

By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.


You are confusing two very different things. Real and legal online sellers will sell legitimate weapons online, ship them to a local FFL shop, and you pick up your legal weapon there. Background checks and everything.

The Armory, and other fronts like them, are acting like eBay/Craiglist for items which are illegal in parts/all of the nation and shipping them in a plain brown box directly to the customer's door (or PO box). So if you wanted a silencer, class 3 weapons, or explosives - they would ship it right to your door - which is 100% illegal. Prices were high too. So if you stole a case of M16s from the US Army - you could liquidate them for a lot of money (in Bitcoins) through The Armory.
 
2013-04-15 06:23:38 PM
There is no major, mainstream, online gun dealer who takes bitcoins.

None.  Zero.
 
2013-04-15 06:24:17 PM
No reputable dealer of just about ANYTHING accepts bitcoins. These "deep web" transactions he's talking about are the web equivalent of meeting a guy in a hotel room and buying a gun without a serial number for cash.
 
2013-04-15 06:24:27 PM

whidbey: Yeah absolutely no reason to regulate firearms because 2nd Amendment.

That's it. No discussion. You can all go about your business.


We get it, you're terrified of guns, and you can't walk down the street without breaking into a sweat.  How many times have you been shot?  I only ask, because with your level of fear, it must have been a lot.
 
2013-04-15 06:26:32 PM

madgonad: The Armory, and other fronts like them, are acting like eBay/Craiglist for items which are illegal in parts/all of the nation and shipping them in a plain brown box directly to the customer's door (or PO box). So if you wanted a silencer, class 3 weapons, or explosives - they would ship it right to your door - which is 100% illegal. Prices were high too. So if you stole a case of M16s from the US Army - you could liquidate them for a lot of money (in Bitcoins) through The Armory.


And you know these services are legitimate, and not an ATF front.. how?
 
2013-04-15 06:28:38 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.

By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.


Or you're getting illegally on the dark net -- in precisely the manner TFA describes.

How many idjits are going to come in here and blast off about how it's also possible to do it legally as if that's relevant to the discussion?
 
2013-04-15 06:32:34 PM
The "Dark Net" is just the online version of the black market. People buy illegal guns all of the time through meetups and in hotel rooms and back alleys. Both would have continued operating with or without this bill.
 
2013-04-15 06:32:49 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: madgonad: The Armory, and other fronts like them, are acting like eBay/Craiglist for items which are illegal in parts/all of the nation and shipping them in a plain brown box directly to the customer's door (or PO box). So if you wanted a silencer, class 3 weapons, or explosives - they would ship it right to your door - which is 100% illegal. Prices were high too. So if you stole a case of M16s from the US Army - you could liquidate them for a lot of money (in Bitcoins) through The Armory.

And you know these services are legitimate, and not an ATF front.. how?


The kind of people who are paranoid enough to do this (or doing a bunch of illegal shiat and hence forced to do this) know how blind drops work: you find an address that's unoccupied during local USPS drop-off times, have it delivered there and make sure there aren't cops watching before picking it up.

This is not rocket surgery, guys.
 
2013-04-15 06:33:17 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: madgonad: The Armory, and other fronts like them, are acting like eBay/Craiglist for items which are illegal in parts/all of the nation and shipping them in a plain brown box directly to the customer's door (or PO box). So if you wanted a silencer, class 3 weapons, or explosives - they would ship it right to your door - which is 100% illegal. Prices were high too. So if you stole a case of M16s from the US Army - you could liquidate them for a lot of money (in Bitcoins) through The Armory.

And you know these services are legitimate, and not an ATF front.. how?


That was my point. My guess was that this was a massive effort to lure several illicit industries into a new market which could be traced as it moved. Yes, illegal transactions would be allowed to occur unmolested... building up the confidence of the existing black markets to use this 'invulnerable' service. Let is run for a few years and see what turns up.
 
2013-04-15 06:36:09 PM

actualhuman: BraveNewCheneyWorld: fusillade762: I'm still surprised you can buy guns over the Internet.

By all means, try doing that and find out the reality of buying a gun over the internet.  99% of the time, you're going to be picking up your internet bought gun from a local ffl.  The other 1% you're going to have to fill out a bunch of forms, or the gun will be very old.

Or you're getting illegally on the dark net -- in precisely the manner TFA describes.

How many idjits are going to come in here and blast off about how it's also possible to do it legally as if that's relevant to the discussion?


Because a website says you can buy guns online without an FFL, doesn't mean it's true.  I'd love to see proof if you have some.  Otherwise, I'm going with the most likely scenarios.

1) It's ATF, and you'll be arrested when you retrieve your package.
2) It's an actual business, but ATF has likely ordered guns themselves, and traced their delivery back to the source, and are monitoring all trades.

Either way, you're probably going to prison soon, and for a very long time.
 
2013-04-15 06:39:27 PM

actualhuman: The kind of people who are paranoid enough to do this (or doing a bunch of illegal shiat and hence forced to do this) know how blind drops work: you find an address that's unoccupied during local USPS drop-off times, have it delivered there and make sure there aren't cops watching before picking it up.

This is not rocket surgery, guys.


Yeah, and you can guarantee that there's not a pinhole camera on the package broadcasting to vans packed with agents 2 streets over?  Good luck with that plan, criminal mastermind.

/there's a reason criminals deal only with people they know
 
2013-04-15 06:41:28 PM

jyoders19: No reputable dealer of just about ANYTHING accepts bitcoins.


Here's an extensive list of dealers who take bitcoin.

https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places/

Get a laptop for BTC 5.

https://www.bitcoinstore.com/
 
2013-04-15 06:46:38 PM

the_dude_abides: doesn't matter how you pay, the firearm you purchase HAS to go through an FFL like anything else


if they're okay with selling to totally anonymous users, they probably don't give a shiat about things like that, either.
 
2013-04-15 06:48:40 PM
To hell with bitcoins, I want to earn airline miles when I buy a firearm.
 
2013-04-15 06:49:03 PM

whidbey: Yeah absolutely no reason to regulate firearms because 2nd Amendment.

That's it. No discussion. You can all go about your business.


whidbey, whidbey, whidbey... you don't seem to understand how a firearm purchase works, but then again, you don't seem to understand any of the other things you talk about either
 
2013-04-15 07:04:08 PM
Are they still performing a background check for any sales within the US?

Then I couldn't be arsed to give a shiat whether the payment is made by cash, credit, or barter with foals and chicken eggs.
 
2013-04-15 07:08:35 PM

The_Sponge: To hell with bitcoins, I want to earn airline miles when I buy a firearm.


What's in your wallet?!?
 
2013-04-15 07:10:04 PM
Regardless of what the courts have said, what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand. The founders wrote that the right to keep and bear arms was to protect us from all enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC. The founders thought that the whole population should be armed, and don't try the National Guard crap, that was started to foil the peoples rights.
 
2013-04-15 07:11:04 PM
I can go on craigslist right now and buy everything from a .22 pistol to a .50 cal rifle and ammo for all, totally anonymously with cash, 100% legally.  BUT OMG BITCOIN WEBSITESWARGAHRGBLES
 
2013-04-15 07:12:15 PM

Dr Dreidel: dittybopper: It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

Which (depending on the specific means of "expression" they use) is a federal crime. So yes, they are criminals. Maybe not murderers, pimps or misusers of government funds, but criminals who deserve jail time nonetheless.

And the government doesn't care what guns you OWN, they care what weapons you TRANSFER. They want to make sure that that "hop" is kosher - they don't give a fart in a windstorm that you own 55 Rugers, they care that the 56th was sold to you in accordance with Federal law. You don't need to register what you have, only what you're preparing to sell. It may seem like a small difference (even a semantic one), but there's a significant legal difference.


Perhaps I misunderstand your post (if so, please correct me), but it is perfectly legal to own otherwise-legal (e.g. not machine guns, artillery, etc.) guns without the government knowing you own them or how you acquired them, so long as you did so legally and aren't prohibited from owning guns.

It's perfectly legal to make your own gun for personal use. You can't make it with the intent to transfer it to someone else without being a licensed manufacturer, but you can make it for your own use. In most states its legal to buy and sell guns in direct, person-to-person sales without government involvement or knowledge.

Sure, if you're engaged in the business of selling guns they require you to be licensed, perform background checks, etc., but for occasional, legal transactions? They don't really care.
 
2013-04-15 07:23:15 PM

fusillade762: The_Sponge: To hell with bitcoins, I want to earn airline miles when I buy a firearm.

What's in your wallet?!?



Ha!

/Alaska Airlines Visa.
 
2013-04-15 07:24:57 PM
Bitcoin -- sounds like the early Paypal, before it got fat and went to Vegas. With the gold and metal markets collapsing all around, bitcoin should be secure until next Tuesday.
 
2013-04-15 07:25:35 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: I can go on craigslist right now and buy everything from a .22 pistol to a .50 cal rifle and ammo for all, totally anonymously with cash, 100% legally.  BUT OMG BITCOIN WEBSITESWARGAHRGBLES


By all means, try that out and chronicle your adventure for us.
 
2013-04-15 07:27:31 PM
Yeah, I'm gonna guess the buyers and sellers who are using the darknet for these transactions aren't just the types who think they should be able to purchase certain prohibited firearms or accessories and don't want the government all up in their biz, and are more interested in buying firearms specifically because they can't be traced back to the purchaser/buyer when they're used to commit a crime.
 
2013-04-15 07:30:41 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: By all means, try that out and chronicle your adventure for us.


I've bought several pistols though classified.  Cash.  And I wasn't even ID'd and the transactions are 100% legal in the state of TN.  But yeah, tell me how crazy I am.
 
2013-04-15 07:34:55 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: I can go on craigslist right now and buy everything from a .22 pistol to a .50 cal rifle and ammo for all, totally anonymously with cash, 100% legally. BUT OMG BITCOIN WEBSITESWARGAHRGBLES


No you can't.  You can buy some realoading stuff, but guns, ammo, primers and powder are not allowed to be sold.
 
2013-04-15 07:35:45 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: BraveNewCheneyWorld: By all means, try that out and chronicle your adventure for us.

I've bought several pistols though classified.  Cash.  And I wasn't even ID'd and the transactions are 100% legal in the state of TN.  But yeah, tell me how crazy I am.


That's within the same state, and is one of the few exceptions, it also has nothing to do with the article.  The topic is about buying from an anonymous dealer, and being an anonymous buyer, so why don't you address that point.
 
2013-04-15 07:36:04 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: I've bought several pistols though classified.


But not craigslist.
 
2013-04-15 07:39:05 PM
My firearms dealers prefer unmarked non-sequential $20 bills.
 
2013-04-15 07:43:30 PM
I'm pretty sure the BATFE requires firearms to have serial #'s
 
2013-04-15 07:44:37 PM
img199.imageshack.us
 
2013-04-15 07:55:19 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: I've bought several pistols though classified.


If you are wanting internet sources for guns and ammo, you go to gunbroker or gunsamerica, not some place that is likely an ATF agent that is just waiting to bust the dumasses that try to circumvent the law.
 
2013-04-15 08:31:55 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: BraveNewCheneyWorld: By all means, try that out and chronicle your adventure for us.

I've bought several pistols though classified.  Cash.  And I wasn't even ID'd and the transactions are 100% legal in the state of TN.  But yeah, tell me how crazy I am.


I live in PA, where until recently if your CC was denied you could get one from Florida via mail order...

So that's crazy.  Especially considering that in PA you can own whatever you want, up to 40mm.  But I can't transfer any of my weapons to anyone except a family member without a background check via a registered dealer.

/NTTAWWT
 
2013-04-15 09:00:04 PM
Ah yes bitcoins,the currency that is only good for buying guns,drugs,child porn,laundering money and one of the biggest exchanges is a Magic The Gathering Online site. Lol I found it hilarious when MtGox shutdown when the bitcoin price dropped like a stone.
 
2013-04-15 09:01:30 PM
Oh also this site http://listentobuttcoin.com/ is endlessly entertaining,especially if you turn Cosby mode on.
 
2013-04-15 09:13:28 PM
daymaresandotherdreams.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-04-15 09:18:18 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: dittybopper: phaseolus: dittybopper: ... or just build a receiver/frame yourself that doesn't have one. Both are completely legal, and don't constitute evidence of a crime.


Now my imagination is running wild and I'm imagining a bunch of people doing that and imagining that it makes them more "free". Please tell me that yer typical gun nerd isn't as crazy as that...? Thanks.

They can't take what they don't know you have.

And yes, there are people who will do that, just in case, or they'll buy guns "off paper", meaning private transactions specifically because there won't be a Form 4473 generated.   It's not that they are criminals, you understand, they just don't think it's the governments business what guns they own.

Kind of like you, huh?


Well, I only have two modern guns:  A Remington 700 ADL in .30'06 that I bought new, and so there is a Form 4473 hanging out there with my name on it, and the .22 LR bolt action my parents gave me back when I was a kid, so there is a Form 4473 for that one, but in my father's name.

I've purchased a bunch of other guns over the years, some from FFLs, some from individuals, but never with consideration that I needed to "hide" them or get them off paper.  In fact, If you'd like, I'll give you a list of all the guns I've owned over the years (other than the two listed above), and where I got them:

Mauser M1916 in .308 Winchester  (dealer)
Weatherby Vanguard VGL in .308 Winchester (dealer)
Colt AR-15A2 Sporter II in .223 Remington (dealer)
Norinco AKM-style semi-auto in 7.62x39mm (dealer)
Norinco SKS in 7.62x39mm (dealer)
Mossberg 500 in 12 gauge. (dealer)
M-1 Garand in .30'06 Springfield (individual)
Sporterized (read:  butchered) No. 4 SMLE in .303 British (relative)
Non-sporterized No. 4 SMLE in .303 British (dealer)
Winchester Model 70 in .30'06 Springfield (pre-1964) (relative)
Winchester Model 70 in .22 Hornet (pre-1964) (relative)
Remington 700 ADL in .308 Winchester (short action) (relative)
Remington 597 in .22 LR. (dealer)

Looking back, they were all either dealers, or I got them from relatives, with the exception of the Garand.

Of course, You don't need a Form 4473 for things like flintlocks or percussion guns, and as you well know, I'm a muzzleloadin' kind of guy.   In fact, I just got a mold and a melting pot for my lead, and I'm getting a ladle and some lead next payday so I can make my own balls.
 
2013-04-15 09:20:49 PM

potterydove: I'm pretty sure the BATFE requires firearms to have serial #'s


If they are newer than 1968, yes.  If they aren't, then no.

For example, I know a person who owns a Remington Nylon 66 he purchased new in the 1960's.  It doesn't have a serial number because they weren't required back then.
 
2013-04-15 09:22:14 PM

HeadLever: Doktor_Zhivago: I can go on craigslist right now and buy everything from a .22 pistol to a .50 cal rifle and ammo for all, totally anonymously with cash, 100% legally. BUT OMG BITCOIN WEBSITESWARGAHRGBLES

No you can't.  You can buy some realoading stuff, but guns, ammo, primers and powder are not allowed to be sold.


You can buy ammo, primers, and powder over the internet.  You can't, however, purchase a new gun that way.  It has to go through an FFL.
 
2013-04-15 09:31:41 PM

dittybopper: You can buy ammo, primers, and powder over the internet.


His point is that you can through craigslist, which is not allowed per site rules.   Now if you get it posted  and someone sees it before the flaggers catch you.....
 
2013-04-15 10:06:51 PM
This whole "bitcoin" thing seems like some sort of scam to me waiting to be committed.  The whole basis of a fiat currency is you have the economy of a nation to back its worth.  With the bitcoin, its value seems to be based on the perceived value by those who participate in it.  From this article and others it seems that the bicoin is the preferred currency by the more shady elements of the internet marketplace.  So by putting your faith in the bitcoin you are putting your faith in a currency backed by the "word" and "credibility" of some people with a questionable value system.
 
2013-04-15 10:15:17 PM

heavymetal: This whole "bitcoin" thing seems like some sort of scam to me waiting to be committed.  The whole basis of a fiat currency is you have the economy of a nation to back its worth.  With the bitcoin, its value seems to be based on the perceived value by those who participate in it.  From this article and others it seems that the bicoin is the preferred currency by the more shady elements of the internet marketplace.  So by putting your faith in the bitcoin you are putting your faith in a currency backed by the "word" and "credibility" of some people with a questionable value system.


It is a giant scam which is what makes it so hilarious to watch,well besides the fact that libertarian ideas tried for real are hilarious anyways.
 
2013-04-15 10:41:36 PM

A Terrible Human: heavymetal: This whole "bitcoin" thing seems like some sort of scam to me waiting to be committed.  The whole basis of a fiat currency is you have the economy of a nation to back its worth.  With the bitcoin, its value seems to be based on the perceived value by those who participate in it.  From this article and others it seems that the bicoin is the preferred currency by the more shady elements of the internet marketplace.  So by putting your faith in the bitcoin you are putting your faith in a currency backed by the "word" and "credibility" of some people with a questionable value system.

It is a giant scam which is what makes it so hilarious to watch,well besides the fact that libertarian ideas tried for real are hilarious anyways.


What will make it even more hilarious is when those scammed start whining for the very government whose laws they were trying to circumvent, to use those same laws to help them get their money back; then finding out they can't.
 
2013-04-15 10:54:58 PM
HA!

Subby has confused scammers/law enforcement stings with online firearm dealers.
 
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